Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on February 27, 2004, 11:47:25 AM
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How do you guys feel about them?
Link to article about the proposed National law. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4387085/)
29 states have them and now they may become a federal law.
I find them a little odd.
We allow abortion(in most cases I am pro choice, but I think we should decide when that fetus becomes a life and then ban all abortions after that time, except where the mothers life is in danger), but if a prego women is attacked and her fetus is killed it is murder. That is hypocrisy.
The little fetus has value and can be murdered; well unless the mom does not want it then it is just so much trash we flush.
Some dems are opposing it calling it Abortion politics even though there is a clause that says abortions do not count.
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Haven't read the entire thing, but isn't there a certain point in the pregnancy that it is considered viable? When you start talking abortion/murder it get's very murky, very fast.
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I do not think that has ever been set on the abortion side. I think it should.
I think in these laws, viable dont me ****, if you attack a 3 week prgo women and she loses it, or you just kill her you are facing murder for both her and the fetus. Or just the fetus.
At some point the whole its "my choice" thing becomes bull****.
I see no reason why we can not say that after say 6 months that fetus is life and to harm it in any way is murder. I would like to see two exceptions. One for the mothers health, and the other for the babies. Other then that I fail to see why this would be a bad thing?
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Apples and Oranges.
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I see no reason why we can not say that after say 6 months that fetus is life and to harm it in any way is murder.
Because the Supreme Court has decided that this issue is too important for the legislative branch of government to handle.
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I think they need to decide when fetus becomes a person and make the laws consistent. If it's murder to kill it then you sure as hell can't abort it.
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How is it apples and oranges MT?
We are talking about the death of a fetus in both cases?
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I think they need to decide when fetus becomes a person and make the laws consistent. If it's murder to kill it then you sure as hell can't abort it.
Dead on. In fact, most places you can't have an abortion in the third trimester.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
How do you guys feel about them?
I think it is a step in the right direction, a direction towards a state of awareness of a life so easily suck/flushed from existence every hour of everyday, 365 days a year
(http://www.prolifeforum.org/brochures/art/hand.gif)
21 weeks (http://www.prolifeforum.org/brochures/samuel.asp)
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Eagler, what is the story behind that picture? Did the kid make it?
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This is always a touchy subject. Until there is a federal mandate telling us when a fetus is no longer just a clump of cells and is actually a person, then there really is no argument. We can fight all day long about when and why, but unless the government mandates it, it'll never be illegal, regardless of how moral it is.
Anyone notice the influx of morality laws lately?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Apples and Oranges.
Really? How?
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IMO, the life of the child is the mother's to bestow. It's her right to choose and no one else.
If someone hurts/maims/kills an unborn child against the wishes of the mother, they deserve to be punished accordingly.
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Ding!
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
IMO, the life of the child is the mother's to bestow. It's her right to choose and no one else.
If someone hurts/maims/kills an unborn child against the wishes of the mother, they deserve to be punished accordingly.
Great, so if my kids cause me too much trouble it is my right to bestow death upon them later? :D
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Originally posted by Kieran
Great, so if my kids cause me too much trouble it is my right to bestow death upon them later? :D
I wouldn't recommend it. :)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Eagler, what is the story behind that picture? Did the kid make it?
Samuel Armas Story/Update (http://www.members.tripod.com/~joseromia/samuel.html)
(http://www.pagerealm.com/handhope/smsamuel.jpg)
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O M G
That is truly truly amazing.
Thanks for that link Eagler.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
IMO, the life of the child is the mother's to bestow. It's her right to choose and no one else.
Should the mother have the right to carry a fetus to 6 months then sell it to a cosmetic surgeon for parts?
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Originally posted by Kieran
Great, so if my kids cause me too much trouble it is my right to bestow death upon them later? :D
According to Deuteronomy 21, yes. :D
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Aw Dead, you know I was waiting for that one. ;)
Seriously though Sand, I know that's a tough question to answer directly. The only answer you can give me sounds too much like we allow mothers the right to murder their own children. We couldn't say that out loud, could we? :eek:
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Dems. and Reps. alike...always looking to make something that is very important all about politics and the other side looking for an edge. Something like this just amazes me that EACH side even whispers "They're just playing politics"
None the less.....I would say , just to repeat something already posted , that until it is determined when life begins , be it conception....6 weeks...3 months..6 months...then this is sticky.
Personally I believe life begins at conception....And Im for the most part pro choice. Which is really for my religion not a good stance. But , take the following senario...
Woman is raped and becomes pregnant..shouldn't she have the right to having an abortion because of the circumstances surrounding how she got pregnant? Or , woman decides to keep it..then all is fine as well. If a woman is in danger of dieing or serious health issues..then that could be grounds. But that is basically the only reasons for me.
I'm FIRMLY against abortion being used as..."I got knocked up and don't want to have the child because I was STUPID and didn't use protection" ie Birth Control. There are viable options for that route such as adoption. Having an abortion cause you don't want to have the kid because your boyfriend or whatever is saying NO WAY..nope..that don't cut it. Should have thought about that before those legs flew open or you gave into the pressure of the "I love you really B.S."
Now..I in my thinking that life begins at conception think that if a woman is murdered and the fetus goes to..then that IS 2 murders. IMO They should be tried for both. In the state I live it it should be considered CAPITAL MURDER and punishable by the death penalty. This is just my opinion. Murder is Murder...And if there is a life within a life...then I definatly think it is 2 counts...no way around that for me.
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All life is special and not ours as man to terminate.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Aw Dead, you know I was waiting for that one. ;)
Seriously though Sand, I know that's a tough question to answer directly. The only answer you can give me sounds too much like we allow mothers the right to murder their own children. We couldn't say that out loud, could we? :eek:
The line has to be drawn somewhere. Until the fetus is born, it is a parasite. The host has all the rights, IMHO.
I don't like the idea of having the government ban abortions and then turn around and come up with all sorts of excemptions and exclusions to cover the pregnancies that are a result of some other criminal act. Bottom line... the pregnancy is unwanted. Even as the result of a rape, the fetus is an innocent. Certainly, it is a hard choice legal or not, but I have absolutely no desire to take the decision away from the women.
Women harm, maim or kill fetuses all the time even without abortions. Drugs, alcohol, poor health habits... you name it.
Anyway... I'm not pro-abortion. I'm pro-choice. I want the people most affected by their decisions to be the ones making their decisions, not some government elected official(s) or appointee.
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Here is a question for you guys:
What would happen to you if you found a California Condor's nest with eggs and smashed the eggs?
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It's probably a good thing to be legal in some cases, but in practice it's pretty much a copout to responsibility. And even the most jaded of people cannot reconcile calling the baby a fetus in one situation and a baby in another, where the only difference is the desire to have the baby or not. That's cold-blooded as it gets.
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Eagler, unfortunately, is either totally ignorant regarding circumstances of that picture or a liar.
The events portray as thye are in the text accompanying the photo, are also complete fabrications. But why let facts get in the way of trying to eliciate a manipulative emotional reponse in order to futher your agenda.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/thehand.asp
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Eagler, unfortunately, is either totally ignorant regarding circumstances of that picture or a liar.
The events portray as thye are in the text accompanying the photo, are also complete fabrications. But why let facts get in the way of trying to eliciate a manipulative emotional reponse in order to futher your agenda.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/thehand.asp
liar/ignorant? please blow it out ur dumbarse crack ahole
I was just pointing out the development of a 21 week old "fetus" that you and other baby murderers don't have a problem killing everyday
I never stated the story was true or false, i provided a link i found in a 2sec search. the picture is real and so is the legalized murder of its brothers & sisters
though morons such as yourself do provide a valid argument for the act, if we could just but see into its future first...
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
The line has to be drawn somewhere. Until the fetus is born, it is a parasite. The host has all the rights, IMHO.
WOW! bout as ignorant as it gets ... but says alot about todays mindset
"humble opinion"?
sounds pretty conceded to me..
you continue to be a parasite post birth ... "IMHO"
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One of my problems with abortion is.
What rights do the fathers have in this process?
From what I see none.
And I think that Is wrong.
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Originally posted by Eagler
liar/ignorant? please blow it out ur dumbarse crack ahole
I was just pointing out the development of a 21 week old "fetus" that you and other baby murderers don't have a problem killing everyday.
I may be wrong, but I don't believe that a 5 1/2 month pregnancy can be terminated unless there is a danger to the mother's health. The pic IS real, the details ARE false.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Mr. Black/Rc51 is back ... again.
Have you ever had an original thought ?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
But why let facts get in the way of trying to eliciate a manipulative emotional reponse in order to futher your agenda.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :p
Now thats a classic
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Sig material...
Baby killer...baby killer...blah blah blah. It's the same load of bullcrap people have been talking about since the idea of abortion was thought up. Talk all you want, as much as you want, but the basic fact is that you won't make a bit of difference.
See why making laws based on morality is stupid? Morality is interpretive. My morals are different than the next guy's and so on. We can have a president make a law banning gay marriage and abortion, and people will whine. We can have the following president repeal the laws and people will whine. Morality has no place in the law books, IMO.
But the more we talk about it, the angrier people become. Soon it's turn into another flame fest...and we'll have another shiney lock on the board...
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Originally posted by texace
See why making laws based on morality is stupid? Morality is interpretive.
Just what do you think laws are based on? Laws are based on what is and what is not socially accepted behavior, which is governed by people's moralities.
Why is it againt the law to walk down the street naked? Why is any law a law?
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Laws are there to protect us. They are enacted to ensure order and safety of the residents of the country. They're also there to ensure that people's rights are not infringed on.
Now, a law that bans gay marriage or a law that bans abortion directly removes the rights and freedoms we have as Americans. That's where they are different then other laws. Abortion and gay marriage are not universally considered unacceptable...they are considered unacceptable by certain citizens who are trying to force their morals on other people. That's what irks me.
You can't walk down the street naked because you have a chance to offend people. You have a chance to infringe on someone else's rights. You can't have an abortion because it's morally wrong. What?
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So I should be able to kill kittens if I want to because that doesn't affect anyone right?
The fact is that laws are based on people's morality. It's against the law to walk down the street naked because people made a morality based law and decided it was offensive.
You say that people that are trying to pass anti-abortion laws are trying to enforce their morality on you? That's what all laws do, otherwise people could do whatever they wanted.
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well the good news is the gay couples don't have to worry about abortion laws :)
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Thing is, those laws are because the majority found it that way. Even so, there are nude beaches and nudist colonies, thereby further segregating the population.
Gay marriage and abortion is different because there's almost an equal split between the two parties. There is no majority...everyone has their own opinion. You make a law like that, and there will be rallies out the wazoo to get them repealed.
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Originally posted by texace
... Abortion and gay marriage are not universally considered unacceptable...they are considered unacceptable by certain citizens who are trying to force their morals on other people. That's what irks me.
Funny..that what I feel as though the gays are doing to us "Moral people";)
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Originally posted by NUKE
Just what do you think laws are based on? Laws are based on what is and what is not socially accepted behavior, which is governed by people's moralities.
Why is it againt the law to walk down the street naked? Why is any law a law?
Bingo. Exactamundo. Preeeee-cisely. Nail on the head. You get the idea.
Secular morality is transient and based on nothing more tangible than whim. In our society you have a better chance of going to prison if you kill an animal than if you kill a human.
Secular laws are law because people generally agree they are a good idea- that is, a majority of people agree it's a good idea. Majority rules. Over time, these laws change as people's views change. It's inevitable.
Nuke has you nailed, texace. People agree it's a bad idea to have people steal your stuff. People agree it's a bad idea to speed through a school zone. People agree (supposedly) it's a bad idea to allow smoking in a privately owned bar. In every case, morality is being shoved down SOMEONE'S throat.
But... all you have to do is reconcile how a fetus of so many weeks is a baby in one case and a fetus in another in a way that doesn't make anyone sound like a cold-blooded baby killer and you'd probably win over the anti-abortion crowd. This of course assumes the baby/fetus is healthy and the choice is made on the coin toss called "woman's right to choose". No medical emergencies allowed, because no reasonable anti-abortion advocate would argue that point.
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im not touching this with a 10 foot poll.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
im not touching this with a 10 foot poll.
It would probably be best ya didn't.
Most of what I have read on here that you have said anyway is laughable and full of contempt and begging for an argument. Course that's just my opinion which I feel fairly confident on this bbs means nadda. But there ya have it anyway.
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Eh, not the first time I've been wrong...won't be the last.
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Originally posted by VFJACKAL
It would probably be best ya didn't.
Most of what I have read on here that you have said anyway is laughable and full of contempt and begging for an argument. Course that's just my opinion which I feel fairly confident on this bbs means nadda. But there ya have it anyway.
oh so somebody besides minid has figured out why i post.
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Originally posted by VFJACKAL
Funny..that what I feel as though the gays are doing to us "Moral people";)
You're going to marry a gay person?
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You really cant force anybody to carry a child to this world. No matter how ugly it gets, the child is integrated in the womans body and she should be able to remove it.
If there was a way to transfer that unborn child in to somekind of artificial growing chamber, then it would be another issue. But as long as state doesent own our bodies, everything that is within is nobody elses business. Even if the child were fediddleing talking and singing in the stomach, it has no right to be there if the mother chooses. If it cannot survive outside the womb, its not the mothers problem really. As long as it is lawful to breed without restrictions or signing any papers, this is what you get.
This is where our marshmellow candybar fairytale western lifes meet natures reality, we have come far with our abilities, but still have to hatch the new human beings inside women and give birth in the way every other mammals do.
Actually there is no child until the woman gives a birth, before that there is only the mother with uncontrolled cellgrowth in her stomach. Yes, that could be also taught as a cancer, depending how you like to view it.
About the rape + miscarriage = murder, it is not relevant about this subject, you can argue it separately. That habit of ruling do not define the standpoint of abortion.
ps. Yes i am cynical ass**** and deserve to be shot, but try to argue my point.
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I beg to differ, it's precisely the point of the post. If there is going to be legislation that calls the death of a fetus murder in one case (one that occurs without the mother's consent), you darn well better believe it opens the debate up. It's fine if you want to be cynical and call a baby a parasite; it's another thing to play both sides of the coin. If I wanted to be harsh I could suggest we should only allow civil liability in the cases where an unborn child is intentionally or unintentionally killed. The offending person probably ought to be fined, but that's about it. That is unless we consider the unborn a child, that is, through some abitrary process like simply "saying" it was a child.
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Everyday I drive past the women's clinic where abortions, amongst other gynecological services, are done. Everyday, there are four religious protesters out there with graphics posters. The protesters are always elderly gentlemen who have a history of marching their signs in front of churches where pro-choice canidates/officials attend mass with their children.
Most of the ardent pro-life supporters Ive seen here are so lost in their message, they seem fine scaring children with their displays.
What's interesting is I never see women out there protesting the rights of the fetus. But I do see women aggressively campaigning the right of a woman to chose.
Perhaps, since men can't carry a child nor make choices about its health, they should back off and respect the mother's choices?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
You're going to marry a gay person?
The gays getting married and the courts allowing it are flaunting the laws of the land.
What's going on is SF is a blantant disregard for the people of California, it's laws and the their votes.
If they want gay marriage, they can vote change the laws. But noooo, they need cricumvent the law to get what they want, just like a lot of Liberal judges have been doing in the federal courts.
What's to stop these Liberals from circumventing other laws? Maybe SF will decide it's okay to have 3 people or more in a legal marriage because it's a "loving relationship"
Maybe they will decide for the state what's good for the people on other issues too.
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Perhaps, since men can't carry a child nor make choices about its health, they should back off and respect the mother's choices?
That standpoint is never going to answer the hard question, "When is it a fetus, and when is it a baby" in the context of the discussion. That's a dodge. Pro-lifers cannot resolve they feel it's murder when someone else "decides" to abort the fetus, but it's a "choice" when the mother decides to do the exact same thing.
If I own a dog that is giving me fits, can I take it out back of my house and shoot it? Not in front of witnesses, unless I want to go to jail. It might be my "choice", but that won't matter for squat. In that respect a dog has more standing than a human fetus it appears. That's something to chew on, isn't it?
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Originally posted by Kieran
If I own a dog that is giving me fits, can I take it out back of my house and shoot it? Not in front of witnesses, unless I want to go to jail. It might be my "choice", but that won't matter for squat. In that respect a dog has more standing than a human fetus it appears. That's something to chew on, isn't it?
Exactly! That is what I was refering to when I asked "what would happen to you if you smashed some California Condor eggs that you found?"
Why is it illegal to destroy a Condors eggs? They are just bird fetuses after all, yet they have state protection, unlike human fetuses.
Your dog example is better though.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
You're going to marry a gay person?
Huh...NO !!!!! See I'm one of the minorities in this country that thinks Men and Women being married is normal. It's acceptable in my belief system. MEN doing MEN or Women doing Women is not normal nor acceptable in my belief system.
One thing I'm gonna say is this..And it will probably draw a few flames I would think....
Gays in my belief system are TOLERATED. I dont believe they have "Rights" to marriage. Someone wants to come up with some socially tolerated thing that allows them some sort of "Rights" for benefits that "Normal" marriages (Men being married to Women) have then more power to them. Don't ask me to "have to Accept" anything but I can Tolerate many things.
Best I quit this right here I think.
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Originally posted by VFJACKAL
Huh...NO !!!!! See I'm one of the minorities in this country that thinks Men and Women being married is normal. It's acceptable in my belief system. MEN doing MEN or Women doing Women is not normal nor acceptable in my belief system.
One thing I'm gonna say is this..And it will probably draw a few flames I would think....
Gays in my belief system are TOLERATED. I dont believe they have "Rights" to marriage. Someone wants to come up with some socially tolerated thing that allows them some sort of "Rights" for benefits that "Normal" marriages (Men being married to Women) have then more power to them. Don't ask me to "have to Accept" anything but I can Tolerate many things.
Best I quit this right here I think.
Then you should support john kerry, who believes in state allows civil unions and letting the church figure out who it 'marrys'.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think it is a step in the right direction, a direction towards a state of awareness of a life so easily suck/flushed from existence every hour of everyday, 365 days a year
21 weeks (http://www.prolifeforum.org/brochures/samuel.asp)
Pretty much flawed example.
How can the mother be under anesthesia and not her foetus ?
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Then you should support john kerry, who believes in state allows civil unions and letting the church figure out who it 'marrys'.
I feel I maybe hijacking a thread here...so I'll save my thinking on this for another place here......BUT
Kerry is not my choice...nor any other Democrat that is running for president.
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That was an amazing article, i cannot believe the kid made it, my heart aches for people who try and try without hope of ever concieving a child and when they do get lucky something has to try to rip thier precious unborn child from them.
I'm pro-choice but also i believe that abortion is murder, but like everyone else is saying, if the mother was raped she should have the choice of aborting, b/c how could she live for the rest of her life looking at this 'tainted' child born outta rape. How could she explain to her child that she didn't know the father and how could that screw the child up.
I have a cousin who was born with ceberal palzy due to the gestational sac being torn during the pregnancy, they couldn't determine when the sac was torn but they concluded she breathed in the fluid and it messed her up.
She's now 11-12yrs old, a great kid with a great smile, but still she will never have a 'normal' life, due to this accident in the womb.
yes i am done my tyraid now...