Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: whels1 on May 25, 2001, 06:12:00 PM
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Awsome move, u P40 guys gona love it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
somewhat a love story but well worth going
to see i give it 4 out of 5 Torpedos.
Whels
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I thought it sucked. Another Hollywood WW2 for Dummies™ movie with a cheesy love story thrown in. And those dogfights, c'mon! Like a P-40 can drag 3 zekes 100 yards behind him for 5 minutes and NOT get shot down. The only realistic fight in there was the one where that guy got vulched taking off.
The only good thing about it was the special effects where the battleships were sinking, but even there you could see some scenes where there were some 1970-era guided missle frigates in the picture and even one scene with a couple CVN's posing as the Japanese fleet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sancho (edited 05-25-2001).]
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I personally thought it was a good movie. I will probably go and see it again. I got out of it exactly what I thought I would. I went in just wanting to see a movie with planes, explosions, and plenty of bombs. That's exactly what I saw. I would be willing to bet that I would have thought it was much better if I was ignorant of the inaccuracies of the movie (remind me to blame my mom for fostering my love of reading about World War 2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). I would also be willing to bet that the only people who care about the P-40 fighting with the Zekes and the scenes where you can see some modern FFG's and CG's in the background.
I will recommend all my students go and see it. Why? Well, I read in another Forum I visit recently a viewpoint that made me see the movie a lot differently. If even just one of my 170 students interest is sparked and instills in them to read about what actually happened December 7, 1941, then the movie was well worth the millions of dollars they spent on it, IMO.
-math
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If you want your students to know what really happened, have them rent the DVD of Tora!Tora!Tora!
<prays for a director of the quality of Stephen Spielberg, John Frakenheimer or Stanley Kramer to appear and make a real flipping war movie>
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Those dogfights are only the best WWII dogfights ever put into a movie sancho. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)Yeah, there was some far fetched BS in there and a love story, but these movies have to please the whole audience, including the wives.
I thought it was a good movie, long at times, almost 3 hours. I especially liked the RAF part of it. The spitfires storming through the LW bomber formation, then fighting the 109's. When Aflecks spit was going in was especially realistic to me. The panic. Him surviving the auger was a weeee-bit far fetched. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The spits tracers are EXACTLY like aces high.
All in all, very entertaining. If you like seeing stuff get blown up, this is for you.
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BTW, did you guys notice when they showed the japanese pilot in his cockpit, it was actually a zeke, or a close reproduction.
I noticed the frigates a few weeks ago in time magazine. Thats the only very obvious out of period hardware, other than the carriers. Wonder where they shot that scene? They were obviously in mothballs somewhere.
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well hb is from some go f=d damn room.s grom ala.. tend to yourfamilly hb doesnt have any family.
What ever.....good topic.....ben smack barley passed.
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wh.....e 5 of 5 torpdels desont havt
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Gotta say, sometimes the nit picking around here really cracks me up. I'm not flamin', so don't get me wrong. Let me put it in perspective a bit. Here is a film that, bottom line, was made to make money. Realize that, and maybe it makes it a bit easier to swallow a few inaccuracies here and there. Another perspective "item"... I took my fiance' with me to see it, figuring that it should work for both of us... for me the anticipated exciting war re-creation footage, and for her a good chick flick love story woven in. Not surprisingly, there were several moments that brought her, and I for that matter, to tears. What was surprising, as she stated to me after we left the theater, was that many of the tearful moments for her were not just the love story parts, but the human tragedy of the attack and how we could have allowed ourselves, through arrogance, ignorance, whatever, to have been so easily attacked. More "choked up" moments came during some of the realizations as to the courage, dedication, and sacrifice it took to overcome the initial devastating blow dealt to us. To me, if this movie reminds people what has been given up for our right to make, watch, and criticize a movie like this, than that movie was significant. The bonus for us was that along with these feelings, we both were able to enjoy what I thought was a well made movie, whose minor flaws I was willing to over look. I plan to take my youngest son, 15 yrs. old, as soon as I can. I originally intended to take him to see the "cool war stuff", as he is somewhat of an Aces High junkie himself. Now, however, I see it as an opportunity to try to impress upon him how significant the sacrifices, etc. were, yet in a way that he will find exciting and captivating, as no simple history book could do. Just a little food for thought. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Skorpyon
~900th Bloody Jaguars~
"Feel the Sting......"
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Who's this lava guy, and what's he trying to say?
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Originally posted by hblair:
Who's this lava guy, and what's he trying to say?
He must have that $14 movie popcorm stuck in his teeth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
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Originally posted by hblair:
BTW, did you guys notice when they showed the japanese pilot in his cockpit, it was actually a zeke, or a close reproduction.
They were obviously in mothballs somewhere.
Are you talking mothballs for the planes hblair? The Airshow team Tora, Tora, Tora (who got their reproduction zero's and val's from the movie) were also suppose to be involved in Pearl Harbor also. Can't find their site now so I can't double check but if so close up's might well have been their planes.
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(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/sigs/wingnut.gif)
The quality of the box matters little. Success depends upon the man who sits in it - Baron Manfred von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 05-26-2001).]
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Well personally I thought it was magnificent.
Like Hblair the spit vs LW footage was awesome, edge of my chair, almost stop my heart stuff.
Yes there were a few things that weren't perfect, it's a movie! It's not like they have 100's of zekes, vals, kates, p40's left laying around in perfect flying condition.
What it did do IMO was recreat the feel, the mood of the times very well. And remind me of how grateful I am that
A Our fathers, uncles, grandfathers etc did their part, large or small. Stood on the wall to defend this country regardless of personal cost.
B We live in a time without war. So instead of actually being shot at, bombed & blown up I can enjoy the good things of that fight without anyone being hurt. Thanks to HTC
I can experience some of what it was like.
I saw a LOT of young teens at the theater last night. If 10% of them walk out with a little more respect for all those who have died for this country, then the movie was a success IMHO.
Agree or disagree, don't take my word for it.
Go see it for yourself.
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Found this kinda interesting.
www.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/ (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pearlharbor/)
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
Well personally I thought it was magnificent.
Like Hblair the spit vs LW footage was awesome, edge of my chair, almost stop my heart stuff.
Yes there were a few things that weren't perfect, it's a movie! It's not like they have 100's of zekes, vals, kates, p40's left laying around in perfect flying condition.
What it did do IMO was recreat the feel, the mood of the times very well. And remind me of how grateful I am that
A Our fathers, uncles, grandfathers etc did their part, large or small. Stood on the wall to defend this country regardless of personal cost.
B We live in a time without war. So instead of actually being shot at, bombed & blown up I can enjoy the good things of that fight without anyone being hurt. Thanks to HTC
I can experience some of what it was like.
I saw a LOT of young teens at the theater last night. If 10% of them walk out with a little more respect for all those who have died for this country, then the movie was a success IMHO.
Agree or disagree, don't take my word for it.
Go see it for yourself.
hehe being a Sim pilot, i caught my self thinking during the DF sences, saying
do this, do that, do this move, that 1 hehe
DFs were engrossing for sure.
be damned if the tracers didnt look like the 1s in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) wtg HT and crew.
whels
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Lessee here, a 3 hour movie with about 30 minutes of blow 'em up stuff and the rest is:
Boy meets girl, boy dies(but anyone with half a brain knows he is not dead), boys best friend steps into the void and knocks up the girl just prior to the return from the dead of the STAR to take part in the infamous raid by the Japs and then be a hero in the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo.
STAR survives Doolittle Raid but the knocker-upper dies so the STAR gets the girl and the kid and they live happily ever after.
When this one gets to TV it should run on Lifetime-Television For Women.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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If anyone here likes to read then I suggest Robert Stinnett's book called "Day of Deceit". He tracked down stuff about the pre Pearl Harbor raid situation that not even the congressional investigation committees could get.
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I was in the main arena earlier and remember hearing someone say that it was impossible for P40's to get in the air, much less get kills(like they did in the movie), well, I just watched a lil deal on The history channel about Pearl. A lot of the things in the movie that I thought was BS apparently were true. There were 2 P40 pilots who managed to get in the air, after partying all night in officers club like in the movie, sped their car to the field, got in their planes and shot down (according to the history channel) 6-8 planes. The movie accounted for 7.
There really was a black cook who manned a machine gun, and recieved the navy cross for it too.
Interesting stuff anyway.
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I liked that bit HB, just the other 90 minutes to 2 hours of the movie felt like wasted time.
I don't feel ripped off, I just wish I'd been late enough to miss the first half.
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Originally posted by Wingnut_0:
Are you talking mothballs for the planes hblair?
I was talking about the 3 ships tied together that got gas bombed.
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what the fuk was i saying? Yeah!!!!
wow did i type that!!!
chesssssssse...i gotta go..moe moe says so!!
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I think Ghosth actually got the most out of this, or atleast walked away with the same feeling that I did. As a warbird conservator and amateur historian, I could see an awful lot that I could pick apart, I also saw quite a bit that was very important. But the over whelming feeling I walked away with, was hat of respect and awe for our ancestors that, along with our allies, did so much for the world at extreme personal sacrifice for themselves.
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Bodhi
-*Armageddon*-
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Watch it guys , last time I said these tracers looked real ,I was called a crack head , hehe . So what your saying is its ok to take your wife ?
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Not only ok, but IMO highly recomended!
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It's not a bad movie... You historians can stick to Tora Tora Tora... but the flight footage is dazzling...
It's worth the price of admission. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The toejamps reminded me of FINAL COUNTDOWN!
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I loved it! Gona get the dvd when its comes out. lotsa splosions and fire and bombs and bullets. The air raid siren sounding and all those spits on the field scrambling almost made me jump out of my seat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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i really thought the movie was mediocre. it certainly didnt affect me the way SPR did, which is the best war movie I've yet to see. But i wouldnt say it completely sucked. Prolly rate it a 3 out of 5.
The fight scenes were ool tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Another nit pick was that the spitfires were packing hispanos (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Won't open till next week in aus, but hopeing for the best.
The Zekes were real, not the Tora Tora Texan's but the Val's and Kates were the conversions from Tora.
Tronsky
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You know the attack at Pearl was almost prevented - only a case of bad timing let the Japanese get there. The timewarp/blackhole storm came back and sucked the Nimitz back to the 80's again.
Hey... ya know they didn't even mention those two Zekes the F-14s from the Nimitz shot down in this new movie. Bah! See more inaccuracies...
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Like I mentioned to my squad, all in all I came away liking the movie. Some movies, like "Tora, Tora, Tora" can pull off a tense buildup, etc to action where as "Pearl Harbor" was more a story instead of history and you need a story to fit all the pieces together.
I grew up watching old blk and wht war movies, etc and I had more of a feel of those type of movies with this one. So this will go next to my video collection of good classic movies.
Wingnut
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I enjoyed the movie myself, definite 4 outta 5. Yeah, there were historical plane/ship inaccuracies, but for the most part, what percentage of people are going to pick up on it? So the Spits had Hispanos? The way I see it, we were lucky enough to see some Spits and 109's fly at all. Maybe they just couldn't get their hands on some Spits that only had 303's. In AH we run scenarios that sometimes we have to use the "wrong" plane, just because it's all we have to work with. Maybe the same thing happened here.
Tho I agree with the dragging 3 bandits for the most part. Though I've seen people drag gobs of fighters in AH and not get shot down for minutes! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I guess my point was that I don't mind techie inaccuracies as much as historical ones. To me, the movie made it look like Yamamoto (Mako rules by the way!) was the one that decided and pushed for the strike on Pearl. I'm sure I've read that Yamamoto was strongly against the attack, but planned it out because he was a good soldier and did what his country asked of him. That inaccuracy bothered me more than hispanos and 70's frigates! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Tho to be fair, Yamamoto did have a couple of lines where it showed he didn't really agree with the strike.
Yeah, the love story was predictable, but name me some movies that have love stories that are NOT predictable!
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take it for what it's worth, a vehicle for a hollywood studio to make money. some of us would ppreciate a more factual account......some of us just want entertained. to each his own.
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Cheese and rice!!! toejamskull and Eblurt don't hold a candle to the critics here in AH! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) I'm going to see it this week regardless of what I read or hear, I already know what really happened anyway. Sounds like both me and my wife will be entertained, that is the intent no?
[This message has been edited by Twist (edited 05-28-2001).]
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In Germany Pearl Harbour starts on 7th June so yet i only saw prewies etc.
1st to all that expect realism, guys this is a Hollywood movie, not a documentation. DOnt expect any realism in the flight scenes. Also dont wonder about all those "legends" implanted into the movie, about the 2 pilots and also about this black hero (Cuba Gooding Jr. is playing him) to appear. The USA have to celebrate their last generation that fought for freedom not for oil.
2nd to all that take this movie as historical acturate, "hello its a movie" its outta the dreamfactory and it produces the dreams needed at the moment. If u want real info about Pearl Harbour go and buy a couple of non-pro-US books and study the facts. There were a couple of US fighters that got airborne (5 if i remember right) but they were only involed in minor A2A combat, and not even came close to the main combat area, in the combat no kills (or max 1-2 were score). I think the movie will not show the Pearl Harbour commander in chief that stated "Pearl attack? Ridicolous" when he got the message that the Arizona had been sunk.
Movies will never tell the reality, and Hollywood mainstream production will for sure not show all the failures the USA made over their entire history. Fact is the winner writes the history and as we all know the USA won the 2nd world war, and so their legends will be shown in whatever WW2 movie comes outta the dream factory in Beverly Hills.
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Naudet,
Considering the attack on PH happened on US soil, I highly doubt any other "after the fact" opinion is going to change. As for the "so-called" legends you spoke of;
Cuba Gooding played the part of a black mess steward named Dory Miller. Who took over a gun after it's gunner waskilled. He was awarded the Navy Cross for his actions (two kills), and was killed two years later when the ship he was on was torpedoed by a Jap sub.
The two pilots that got aloft in the P-40's (romance not withstanding) were modeled after two pilots who happened to be out late drinking the night before, and who ran down a car driven by a civilian who took them to Hickam where they took off to fight the 2nd wave. All told, the US accounted for 9 air to air victories that day. The movie claimed 7, but again it is Hollywood. The point here is that these people are not just ficticious characters, but are retells (with some embelishement) of actual exploits of the combatants present. So please, research as much as you can before discounting these personages as mere American propaganda, it may surprise you.
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Bodhi
-*Armageddon*-
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"Cuba Gooding played the part of a black mess steward named Dory Miller. Who took over a gun after it's gunner waskilled. He was awarded the Navy Cross for his actions (two kills), and was killed two years later when the ship he was on was torpedoed by a Jap sub."
yep..... and he also had a US Navy ship named after him.
"The two pilots that got aloft in the P-40's (romance not withstanding) were modeled after two pilots who happened to be out late drinking the night before, and who ran down a car driven by a civilian who took them to Hickam where they took off to fight the 2nd wave. All told, the US accounted for 9 air to air victories that day. The movie claimed 7, but again it is Hollywood. The point here is that these people are not just ficticious characters, but are retells (with some embelishement) of actual exploits of the combatants present. So please, research as much as you can before discounting these personages as mere American propaganda, it may surprise you."
yep..... well you got most of it right.
Lt.`s Ken Taylor & George Welch.
(http://home.att.net/~historyzone/TaylorWelch.JPG)
"He and Taylor were on their way. Running at full tilt, the two pilots piled into Taylor’s car. Racing for the base gate, they were strafed by a passing dive bomber. Once on the road to Haleiwa, Taylor drove at breakneck speeds, frequently pushing 100 mph, and covered the winding 16 miles of road in little more than 15 minutes. Sliding to a stop in a cloud of dust and gravel, both men raced to their P-40s, now warmed up and ready. Jumping into the cockpit, Welch listened as his crew chief said, “Lieutenant, we don’t have any .50 caliber ammo here. All that you’re gonna have is the .30s.” “Ok” said Welch, as he got his harness buckled. The crew chief continued, "We got word that we should disperse the planes, sir." "The hell with that", said Welch, "get off." The crew chief slid off the back of the wing and George pushed up the throttle and taxied to the narrow airstrip. Ignoring the usual pre-takeoff check-list, George slowly fed in full power and roared off the grass with Ken Taylor two minutes or so behind him."
They were able to land, re-fuel, re-arm, and take-off again for a second hop!!! But not without the Japanese trying to vulch them on their second attempt. Not only did they avoid getting vulched, they shot the vulcher down!!!
These 2 pilots shot down at least 6, if not 10 Japanese aircraft in 2 hops.
Read the story here:
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html)
Awesome story on Welch. Went on to get 4 more in a P-39 later in the war, and 8-9 more in a P-38. Was killed in Oct. 1954 flying a Super Sabre.
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Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
352nd Fighter Group.com
Blue-Nosed Bastards of Bodney
[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 05-28-2001).]
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Thanks Skybax...enjoyed it.
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Skybax,
Excellent article to accompany your post! I was unaware that Welsh was one of the P-40 pilots. Awesome research.
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This movie sucked!
It sucked as movie: Bad dialogue, bad plot, stupid story, no direction or focus, bad directing, bad production- all courtesy of Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer the brilliant folks who gave us such magnificent films as The Rock and the deep deep Armageddon. All Bay and Bruckhemer know how to do is pander to the lowest common denominator by dumbing down the story and characters and adding huge explosions, pointless souless sentimentalism, an overdone overly emotional score, and absolutely stupid slow motion "HERO" walking towards the camera shots.
Even the special effects were sub par, take a look at the Arizona explosion it looks nothing like the real thing, the real explosion was enormous while the movie one was a mere pop. Great parts of the real pearl harbor timeline were messed up and significant events alltogether ignored.
As far as characters go both the US and especially Japanese were such stupid cardboard people that nobody would give a damn if they died or not. Plus that stupid romance love triangle and the fake horny MTV nurses are simply soap opera garbage, again all pandering to the primitives and idiots, of which there are plantly in the USA these days.
Then the stupid dialogue like Ben Aflecks: "Im not anxious to die, Im anxious to matter". Im sure the retards this one was made for will find that a clever and meaningful line.....
Then this movie has no flow or scene developent. For example one post attack scene ends, then we cut to Yamamoto and an aide somewhere on a ship.
The aide says: "Congratulations"
Yamamoto answers: "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant"
Thats it.
CUT! to next scene dealing with the stupid love story.
Not only did that idiot Bay remove half of Yamamotos real words, he made the whole scene meaningless and irrelevant by not developing it. Just two lines of dialoge
and cut to the shameless idiotic all-important love triangle.
Ugghhh, I hated this move Im really sick of such dumbed down unintelligent garbage.
Plus think of this it was rated PG13 to maximize profits, so all we get is ridiculos sanitized violence. Remember all those strafing zeroes. Well exactly what does a 20mm shell do to person. SPR showed it in its full horror, while in PH people just fall down.
Basically PH is a piece of toejam that doesnt doesnt take itself or the real PH attack seriously, but sees itself as a giant profit machine to draw money away from idiots and teenagers who want a giant videogame. This is no different than any other garbage that Bay and Bruckheimer made. Its a shame these two got their hands on 135 million Disney dollars to cheapen the December 7 attack and the deaths of 3000 Americans.
Im ashamed that I couldnt resist seeing this shameful monstrosity and contributed $7 bucks to this enterprise. I honestly feel that I never want to see this garbage again, ever.
Absolute garbage on the the lovel of "Battlefield Earth".....
If you still havent seen it please resist the temptation to do so even to see its faults, its really that bad and extremly tiring to watch as you wade through the roadkill.
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Yep it was a bloated rotting maggot-infested turd of a movie. But it had Spitfires and Zekes and Mitchells. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I knew this would be an Armaggedon type cheesy special effects,no plot movie ...I was right I guess . I'll prolly rent it when it comes out on DVD.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
9./Jg54
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/squads/approved/kirin.gif)
Besser tot als rot!
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Glasses that's a good move. Rent it, fast forward until the guy arrives in England, watch it he's done there, then fast forward until you see Japanese planes taking off, watch it until they are done, then fast forward until you see Mitchells.
You'll still see plenty of historical inaccuracy and "Armageddon" style B.S., but at least you will be able to skip a lot of the worst stuff.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-29-2001).]
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PS This isn't my line but it sums up about 2 hours of this godawful film: "Snora! Snora! Snora!"
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I kinda liked it. I was lookin around.. the young folks there were quite impressed... most folks get their history served up kinda dry w/o sauce in school.. this movie maybe; JUST MAYBE woke some young people up to what our nations mindset was.. attitudes and political/stategic dynamics were pretty close to dead on. Besides the examples above...
Roosevelt and his tounge lashing of the general staff. Complete w/ his climbing outta the wheelchair.. accurate. The Navy's original concept of the tokyo raid, in particular a sub driver commin up with the plan... true. The attack on the hospital.. true. The strafing of sailors in the water.. true. The sinking of the japanese sub at the harbor entrance.. yup. The admiral on the golf course.. right again. Doolitle's training of the buff pilots by example and refusing to stay on the carrier and lead that raid.. the broomstick guns, the panic lightening; the 10 cans of gas.... all true.
Not mentioned... after the tokyo raid the japenese slaughterd (no ... MURDERED in cold blood would be a more appropriate description) over 60 THOUSAND chinese from the provinces the raiders landed in.. for assisting the Americans.
Not true.. the Doolite raid went in singles.. no fuel to loiter after takeoff to form up. 5 japanese citys were hit, only 2 aircrews fell into japanese hands, one crew landed in russia, the rest in china. 67 men outta the 80 made it home. Finally; the Congressional Medal of Honor was pinned on Doolittle.. not Afflack. His words were "On behalf of the other raiders; I accept this honor..." just as he did in the movie.
For the most part, I thought it was a great history lesson, despite the sappy love story. The flying was about the best I've ever seen on film.. an outstanding meld of 'real' A/C, models, cinamatography magic and computers.. the film had me rootin fer the good guys, shoutin "YES!!!" when they whupped the vulchers.. WE all know P40's and their superbly dismal performance.. fact remains, only TWO planes really did get in the air, and they KICKED BUTT.
Anbody else spend the attack scene wondering when the B17's would show up?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway; if it gives some folks some flesh n' blood imagry that the cold dry histroy book lessons couldn't, and shows the folks the severity and scale of that hammer blow... it was a horrible thing.. all those sailors perishing, sealed in their ships..
Not mentioned: the fact that; as a result of the attack on and the utter destruction of the pacific fleet we lost every Marine on Wake Island and nearly every soldier in the Phillipines.. Corregidor; Baatan.. let alone the fall of Indochina, Singapore.. Over a Million civilians and various armed forces personnel perished at the hands of the japanese in the first 4 months of the war. A million. It still chills me. All because we lost that fleet.
Lest we forget... and WTG hollywood.
Hang
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Good points Hangtime, but I still feel there were too many departures from the truth in that film. With the money they spent, there is no excuse for getting the facts wrong. That means the falsehoods were probably intentional. I don't feel that it is neccesary to embellish war stories to make them exciting. Just do your research and show all the crazy things that happened to individuals - a la Cornelius Ryan. But I guess if their market is people who don't read, then the approach of these filmmakers makes sense. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Saw it, hated it. Great fx and dogfighting scenes, but all of the extra padding and packaging made for a butt-number.
Now I don't normally yearn for violence and blood in movies, but c'mon this is a war movie. The A-Team "fall down when bullets strike near" violence and lack of any blood or maiming really dispelled any immersion or impact of the battle scenes. It felt like I was watching a made-for-tv movie. The filmakers would have you believe that the only wounds suffered when your ships get bombed is an urgent need to shower the grease and grime off yourself. The only genuine blood was from a severed neck artery that a nurse had to plug with her finger, and she only got a drop or two on her whites?
Ugh, and the Dawson's Creek love story this garbage was wrapped in...terrible. Women in swimsuits writing love letters on a beach at sundown? Drek drek drek.
And the Cuba Gooding subplot was terribly done, this is something that deserves its own movie, not something that gets cookie-cuttered on top of everything else. Did anyone else notice how artificial and misplaced the narrative about him at the end was? It came across as "Oh yeah, politically correct tribute afterthought to show that even though we riduculed speech impediments we are genuinely enlightened and sensitive to the deeds of minorities."
Ick
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I thought the Doolittle raid planes separated early and performed bombing raids as single units in widely separated target areas, not as a formation.
miko
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Haven't seen the movie, but I do know they used the USS Lexington for some of the carrier scenes. It's down in Corpus Christi, Texas. www.usslexington.com/ (http://www.usslexington.com/)
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Originally posted by miko2d:
I thought the Doolittle raid planes separated early and performed bombing raids as single units in widely separated target areas, not as a formation.
miko
Correct, and, they were not in constant contact with US ground communication during the actual bombing run as portrayed in the movie. There was no fire fight after a crash, nor a strafing B25 to push the Japanese back, but hey, this was a movie, not a documentary. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh, thought I might add that Gen.Doolittle is probably doing flip flops in his coffin after discovering that of all people protraying the Doolittle character, they chose Alec Baldwin...thought he was going to move out of the country? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(For you on the other side of the fence, imagine Rush Limbaugh portraying your fav. WW2 hero...nuff said!)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-29-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-29-2001).]
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I give a thumbs up for the movie. I love history and I read alot. I also enjoy documentaries on the History channel..etc. But you gotta admit they did well in puitiing the movie together, it was quite entertaining. If you go in the theatre-- strictly to be entertained-- in that mindset ytou will get what you want.
Hang, I agree completely. I am kind of a softie too when it comes to patriotic memories. I give up a few tears annually. Being a career Military person will do this to some people I guess. My wife knows me, and lets me have it when I pick at her about her crying at the love scenes.
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Hang, Ammo, we are of the same breed...Private Ryan I shed em like crazy, and my father sitting beside me, did too, he's not known for tears, he was shedding them watching that movie.
Pearl Harbor, only during the panning above the battleships all ablaze with men in the water, got sweltered up on that shot, but, not nearly as much as SPR.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-29-2001).]
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I've tried to refrain from posting on this topic but can't any longer...
I can't believe the number of messages about this movie and how these messages actually come across to me as angry and upset at how the movie was done. It seems people really do have to nitpick to find value and self-esteem in their own life. We all know what bullets do to flesh and it really isn't *necessary* to include chunks of blood and meat flying across the screen to make this an accurate movie. This actually makes me feel more comfortable should I choose to take my 4-yr old son or 6-yr old daughter to see the movie. Go rent Faces Of Death if that is what you need. Hollywood generally tends to over-do the blood and body parts flying when hit with a bullet anyway. Who here has seen a soldier hit in real life? As for using a few more modern destroyers to bomb in the movie as well as some other things is just a matter of choice and substitutes/replicates well that point. If the budget allowed, I'm sure the movie makers would have prefered to have the shipyards create anew all these ships, but that is not feasible and so choices have to be made. I saw a documentary on Tora, Tora, Tora and it cost $30,000 per plane to fix those trainers up to look more like Zeros and that movie was released in 1970. The setting isn't perfect because it is 60 years later, but I think they made some good choices for what they had to do. Heck, with the choices made it's still the most expensive movie to create to date, I believe. This movie is not a documentary. Documentaries do not bring the audience to view that entertaining love-stories and action movies bring. I'm very happy that someone decided to make a love-story set in the period of the Pearl Harbor attack and then attempted to summarize and portray those events that happened. My wife hadn't a clue about Pearl Harbor before the movie and can care less of my interest in military aviation and aircraft these many years. After seeing the movie and talking with my wife, she has an immense greater understanding of what happened and I'm very much shocked about how little or how wrong those things she used to think about the war. So she heard the paraphrasing of "awaken a sleeping giant", she understands the gist of it. The movie condenses events of a few months...no, actually YEARS into 3 hours. We saw the movie Saturday morning and to my delight, my wife actually set the VCR to record the History Channel while we were out Sunday with family so that she can learn further of the attack. <Bells ring>...the movie is a success!! The movie got across the important points and generated interest for my wife to investigate further into the attack. I'm sorry, this movie was not made for the Pearl Harbor and WW2 experts (all seven of you out there), but it will convey very well events during the attack to the masses. C'mon people, get down off your horse. The general viewer doe not need to know that a x-class destroyer had such-n-such guns, but it is nice to know that some people will understand that 1. Britain was in war before the US (surprising how many people do not understand the time-line of the war) 2. US was isolationist but govt was sending some ships to UK and we had volunteers in UK and China 3. US was asleep at the wheel 4. Japan felt a need to attack the US due to steel and oil embargos 5. attack took place even though several red-flags if heeded could've prepared us and lessened the loss 6. LOTS died. 7. Message to commander at Pearl arrived during the attack as well as msg from the Japanese embassy. 8. Flyers did make it into the air 9. 3rd wave didn't occur 10. Even though the US was down and looked out we had the fighting spirit to put up a token raid against Japan. 11...and more.
<shoots your horses and makes you walk at the level of the rest of us>
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Stevie the guys who really got starafed in the real PH attack were often decapitated, cut in half, dismemberd, disemboweled and apparently the strafed area streets san red with blood.
The point of our concern is not a stupid viscious blood-lust to see gore and flying body parts, it is the obvious cheapening and "clean up" to earn the movie a PG13 rating so it can maximize profits from the young teenage male "demographic". SPR took itself seriously and pretty much showed what 20mm HE shells do to human bodies and thus earned an R rating and accepted a loss in profits to remain true to realism and respect for the horros of war.
PH on the other hand just sees the Dec.7 attack as a convenient background to:
A. A terrible, pointless, formulaic and soap-opera like love triangle story. (for idiot female demographic)
B. A terrible Bay/Bruckheimer stupid action, blow stuff up movie. (for idiot male demographic)
There is no soul to this movie, no feeling, no respect, no honesty. It is simply a contrived piece of toejam meant to leach modern day idiot Americans' money out of the suffering of thousands of real Americans on that day.
READ THIS PART!
If you dont belive me as to how little respect and how not seriously Bay/Bruckheimer took this movie just look for a little cameo in the movie done by none other than a computer inserted Bruce Willis.
Yep there is a scene during the hospital attack where Bay inserted the character JOHN MCLAIN of the DIE HARD action movie series, in the backround walking by.
This is not a joke JOHN MCLAIN of the action movies DIE HARD is in PH. This is simply so stupid, cheap, pointless, cheap, horrible, god diddlying awful, disrespectful of the subject, its simply unbelivable.
What PH is, all PH is is a calculated effort by Bay/Bruckheimer to exploit the deaths of 3000 Americans and the idiocy of the US public. The premise of this movie is to take the love story, "cute guys" and epic scale of Titanic to draw in the teenage girls, then take the idiotic blow stuff up and idiotic "braveness" and pseudo patriotism of Armageddon to draw in the idiot teenage male.
Thats why this is a bad movie, far beyond the historical travesty and disrepectul nature PH is simply a poorly done film. Its obviously an overly contrived, cynical, souless, directionless monstrosity. Its a giant advertizing campaign rolled into an awful overlong 3 hour piece of toejam not worth the film stock it was shot on.
Its simply awful and I diddlying hate it.
The good news is that it apperently missed estimates for the for day weekend falling well short of Disney's projected 90 million plus. There is some hope after all....
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Wow Grun, I'm speechless, I went into that movie with "Its entertainment"...but after reading your post, I can't help to admit that I agree with quite a few of your points withint that post.
BTW, who's John McCain and whats die hard? (Ripsnort << Who spends VERY LITTLE time in front of a movie screen, let alone television, since life is too short to piss away time doing THAT!)
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Opinions are like a-holes. We all have them. For any of you to take anothers as gospel is laughable. What are you trying to do, save your $5 if so and so said it stunk or spend it if so and so said it was good??
Get off your wallet, off the computer, out of the house and go see it for yourself.
As someone above mentioned, if it makes our youth understand another generations sacrifice, it served it's cause. And remember, it's just a movie as AH is just a game.
Eagler
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Die Hard was a series of 3 action movies where the main character "John McLain" not like Sen. MCain, battles various terrorists in confinded spaces like an LA office tower, Chicago Airport, or open areas as New York in #3. Lots of big firey explosion, big macho type charecters, impossible MG bullet dodging gunfights, etc, etc.
Basically these are good well done action movies and are good fun movies overall. But certainly nothing that should be inserted into PH in any way.
Apperently PH diector Michael Bay and Bruce Willis are good buddies after doing Armageddon together and Bay thought is would be clever to put the John Mclain charecter into PH. Whatever his reasoning it clealy betrays Bay/Buckheimers lack of respect and seriousness towards the subject.
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Eagler seeing PH will not make anyone feel anything for the war, especially not those who dont feel/know anything about it before hand. Its symply too styleized, contrived conceithed and cynical to touch anyone on a real level. Its simply a giant poorly done action flick all wraped up in a big US flag. It shames the real PH attack to no end, by cheapenig it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Eagler seeing PH will not make anyone feel anything for the war, especially not those who dont feel/know anything about it before hand. Its symply too styleized, contrived conceithed and cynical to touch anyone on a real level. Its simply a giant poorly done action flick all wraped up in a big US flag. It shames the real PH attack to no end, by cheapenig it.
Ok, you HATE the movie. Guess what, you're still WRONG! Read what you wrote. You said it won't make ANYONE feel ANYTHING for the war. Then why were there tears in my eyes when the people were trapped in the ships? According to you, I couldn't be feeling anything, so it must have been some dust from the popcorn, huh??? PLEASE!!! You don't like the movie, that's fine. The movie is a money making machine, well of course, it's a major motion picture, not meant as a documentary. Same thing with Titanic. I learned something from that movie too. I knew the ship sank, but I didn't know they locked people in steerage, e.g.
As for the graphic violence, I prefer the "dumbed down, stylized" violence over SPR and Braveheart. I can imagine what a 20mm shell or a bastard sword does to someone; I don't need or really -want- to see it! I won't watch SPR again because of the gore. I know which parts of Braveheart to skip through, because I don't want to see it. I -will- watch PH again, because it isn't gorey.
Normally, I would never flat out tell someone they are wrong, but you are in this case. -I- took something away from that movie and -I- felt something for the people who fought in WWII from watching that movie. Yesterday I spent most of my time online reading about the war in the Pacific solely because I watched PH on Saturday. Your first two sentences that I quoted above are nothing more than assumptions, seemingly based solely on your hate and disgust for the movie. Why don't you go ask people who lived through Pearl Harbor (or even those who were alive at the time) if THEY feel the movie cheapened and/or shamed the reality of it. I'd be surprised if more than a few felt the same as you.
Please don't take this too personally, but when you said it didn't make anyone feel anything, well, I'm included in "anyone", and it bothered me that you're basically saying what I will feel (more to the point what I felt) after seeing this movie. You'll still be getting check 6 calls from me!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I thought I saw Bruce Willis in there. I guess I wasn't imagining it. I almost said to my wife "Isn't that Bruce Willis" but didn't realize it was his Die Hard character.
Grunie, I still disagree whole-heartedly with you. Please do not test this movie against your typical historical documentary or even book of which it is not. This is a movie... a love story set during the events of Pearl Harbor and never touted to be anything more. This will not replace or be tantamount to "At Dawn We Slept" and other more serious texts. I have some knowledge of the events and in my opinion the movie represents them well and gets the point across very well. But what amazes me is that it appears a lot of people are trashing this movie because it is NOT the ultimate documentary on the events...something it was never meant to be. I personally find it to be a great tribute to the men and women who survived that time and am glad of all the Pearl Harbor interest the movie has generated the past few weeks. In my opinion, the worst thing that can happen is that Pearl Harbor is forgotten.
I found lots of soul, feeling, respect and honesty with the movie. Also, I've seen first hand how this movie affected someone who had *NO* knowledge whatsoever on the subject and then I watched how she then pursued a further understanding of Pearl Harbor and actually became a bit enraged about the whole attack. I'm hoping this won't only happen to my wife. And yeah, it's a love-story with some handsome stars...but I was very pleased to look around the theater and see some young girls attend the movie which if a dry-documentary they most likely otherwise would not attend and I bet they learned a thing or two. I'm hoping this movie will be very popular because many people are very ignorant about our history and with a little sugar this movie gets the medicine down. I'm hoping that the next generation remembers and now understands Pearl Harbor and does not let our armed forces slip to a lack of readiness.
I would love to hear about this "historical travesty" in greater detail. It's simply not fair to leave it at that.
<<<...seeing PH will not make anyone feel anything for the war, especially not those who dont feel/know anything about it before hand.>>
How dare you say such things. I heretofore announce that Grunnie does not speak for me. I'm sorry, but you cannot speak for everyone. The movie made me feel... the movie made my wife feel...you are wrong.
To each his own but be careful what you are trying to compare this movie to.
[This message has been edited by Steven (edited 05-29-2001).]
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Yah know, I'm kinda saddened by this strident "phoney" nonsense. The premise for the movie from the start was not a docu-drama, nor was it 'Stephen Spielburg makes his obligatory War Movie'. When we go see those kinds of flicks we already have pre-concieved ideas of what we will see, how it will be presented.
THIS WAS A DISNEY FILM... you expected heads flying off and streets running red with blood? C'mon!
I took my daughter to see it.. she asked me questions for 4 hours after the film. Intelligent Questions, praise the lord...It was a winner from my perspective. She also asked 4 hours of questions after SPR... and the questions were much the same. I'll have to ask her if the lack of bloody streets or major body parts drizziling down after shell blasts made any diffrence to her. I suspect not.
For the rest of us.. we know the diffrence between Hollywood and History. At least we SHOULD... for those of you uncertain; we do the hollywood rendition every night in AH.
Folks; maybe the Last Great Thing This Country Ever Did or Ever Will Do happened back then. So WHY NOT wrap it inna flag, and show the kiddies what evil bastids our parents (or grandparents) had to deal with back then? enh? Like it or not... it's a story... and a good one! The Hero's that day ran 10 deep on the ground and in the air... the TRUE stories are all but unbelivable.. you grouse because they dummed it down??
I KNOW these facts.. I don't need to see all their gory deaths or the moments of their ulitimate sacrafices in living color to make me BELIEVE.. I already DO!
See it for what it is. As somebody else mentioned, I don't need to see maimed and decapitated sailors to add 'the touch of true realisim' to the scene of the US Navy's Pacific Fleet in flames and ruin, sailors floundering helplessly in the water as the Vals and Zekes made pass after pass on the swimmers.. I would have shed no more or less tears for it.
I suspect all these guys barking the realisim tree own a Mitsubishi... and feel guilty. (you should)
Hang
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Steven and Hangtime, IMHO well said. It is disturbing to me to see the way this movie is being picked apart by those concerned. I went to see it Saturday night. I went after a friend told me about the historical inaccuracies and substitutes used in the movie. But the difference is, I went and looked from unbiased eyes, not eyes that have spent the better portion of his life restoring Warbirds. What I saw was a film that IMO was meant to be able to offer something to include all, to spark enough interest that maybe, just maybe, more questions might be asked. If just a few young people are intrigued enough to learn more about the past of this country, then I am all for it. Regardless of the love triangle or not, (was love not around in WW2) and the lack of people crawling through their own entrails, I feel the movie was and should have been sanitised so that the younger generation can look at it without having to relive those moments as dreams of horror. As my father often told me, "I did not goto war for glory, I went so you would never have to." That is enough for me. I have seen SPR, and feel that that film told a story in it's way, PH did in it's way too. The debate here should not be about which is better, instead, IMO, it should be about lessons learned, lives lost, and cherished memories of a kinder, more honorable, and integrity filled time.
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As my father often told me, "I did not go to war for glory, I went so you would never have to."
Yes, indeed. I heard that as well.
IMO, it is that broadly held attitude that makes them our (US) "Greatest Generation".
It's a movie. AH is a game. Both are worth the money. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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heeheee.. let me say what the biggest inaccuracy was in the whole movie..And I could care less..
The bombs, and their fuzes. You talk about stretching it? Do you think that bomb's paint would look that good much less not look a little distorted after passing through several inches of steel..twice? Or how about the fins beign intact? it lays there and the fuze stopps spinning as if it is motorized? please... My job has been for the past 13 years a munitons troop in the Tactical Air Command and then Air Combat command..I assure you that little piece was inaccurate..and again I will say it...who cares.
ammo
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(flogging the dead horse, I know) .. just curious.. what KEY facts about the attack on Pearl Harbor were misrepresented or completely false?
The japanese planning for MONTHS this attack in detail while knowing with CERTAINTY that they would strike at Pearl?
The Presidents desire to assist the British, even at the cost of stripping the Pac Fleet of assets? Even AFTER Pearl? The general apathy in America about the already devestating war in Europe? The Eagle Squadron's existence?
Akroyds portrayal of the mindset of the intelligence community? The CNI's refusal to accept their appraisal?
Admiral Kimmels unease with his orders and the Pentagons blind eye to local intelligence assesments?
The use of civilian housing, air tour services and indigent japanese for intelligence purposes by the IJN?
The force deployments and bunching of A/C to prevent sabotage?
The Japanese raid structure?? It's low level approach? The strafing? The attacks on obvious civilians and the Hospital?
The helplessness and rage of the survivors when faced with the carnage? The slowly dying crew of the Arizona, trapped 40 feet under water?
Yah, The Doolittle Raid part was pretty piss poor.. here they diverged a mite too much for my taste.. the Flack over Japan (very light when any was seen at all).. the Formation Bombing.. (there was none) the 'ditching' in china (almost all crews bailed.. at night) etc; leaves us 'in the know' types a little cool.. but still, Doolittle WAS an old man, his troops loved him, he trained them from the cockpit and he suffered horribly till he knew their fates and he refused to stay behind and after it all, deferred his honors to those that flew with him.
Really.. tell us.. where does this films HISTORICAL points wander far from the truth?
Or is it just the sappy love story hook for the masses that ticks yah off?
Hang
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Thanks for the posts guys..I will go see it and take the wife and kids(think 8 and 9 are too young?)
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if you dont mind the vulgarity, not the F word, but about everything else is used. No nudity but a scene where sex is definately implied. I wont take my kids, but for other parents it will be up to them.
ammo
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I suspect all these guys barking the realisim tree own a Mitsubishi... and feel guilty. (you should)
Ridiculous.
I understand now why you liked the movie.
It was made for idiots, and you sir are in the target demographic.
POOF
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Yup.
'n proud of it too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) That reminds me.. I gotta go re-wire my bumpers and retie the passenger door closed on my Canadian made Jeep.
<S!>
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greenhurtz
your making too much of the john maclain thing. I havent seen the movie yet but I know how long these people put into them. 100000s of hours. And if one guy took some relief from the monotony and put a previos films charecter in as a kind of cookie...it is prepostorous for you to stretch this to mean that he didnt care for the subject matter. It is a movie. Is AH laughable for the beer on the hill or the pizza or peoples names in secret places in cockpits. does that make AH disrespectful to the dead at pearl harbour?
No it does not.