Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on May 25, 2001, 06:58:00 PM
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I definately like this modification... both as a vehicle driver and as a gamer.
The F3 view allowed an unfair "spot everything around you instantly" advantage that made certain functions very difficult. Today I was able to sneak up on 3 ground vehicles in an M3 because I knew that if the guns were pointing up.. they were looking up. A base capture on a heavily vehicle defended base. Can't say that was all too possible before.
Thanks for that one HTC <S>
AKDejaVu
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i love it too.
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But what about having external views offline? I wanted to look at the new vehicles and I couldn't figure out any other way to do it than in the hangar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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You can still use external view off-line. It just isn't configured by default. The setup is described in this thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/001482.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/001482.html)
AKDejaVu
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Yep, I drove right past banana in an Osty who was firing upward whilst I was in a M3. Unfortunately for me a Lancaster spawned and decided to roll over to me and drop his bombs!
More sneaky attacks!
Nexx
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But shouldn't there be exterior sounds added to vehicles with open tops? I have no idea how loud a vehicle engine sound might be at the driver's seat, but if you got a top open, I think you should be able to hear at least a buzzing sound as it gets slowly larger...
I mean, it won't be, like, as loud as Stukas diving, but shouldn't there be something?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ever heard a tank before?... Ever heard a 37mm go off before?...
I don't imagine a whole lot was done in a running panzer/ostwind via sound recognition (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
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I gotta chime in with a thumbs down for the no F3 view. Without roads, bridges and undriveable terrain (creating bottlenecks), field spotter A/C and dust trails the attackers have an unfair advantage IMO. Granted the F5 view was extreem, but atleast with F3 field defenders had a chance at actually defending a field. To top it off, what's up with the M3/M16 armor? It takes an average of 3 AP hits to kill one now...hell, one AP in a lightly armored halftrack should absolutly ruin the drivers day :/
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Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure
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Thanks for the setting info. I couldn't find documentation on it in any of the HTC help files, and I did not want to scan through all the millions of threads looking for the one that described how to make the view settings work.
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Yup, I agree with MrLars.
DjV, most of my tank missions involve driving to a firing position, stopping and killing the engine. You sure I wouldnt hear an airplane going overhead in a tank with no internal noise being generated?
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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And I'm sure with the hatch closed and hearing protection on (they still fire the gun right?) that it still wouldn't matter.
Engine noise is not a concern. Proximity concussions was. Hear a close boom? Someone his targetting you. When things were tough.. the hatches stayed closed and the vision sucked. And "listening" for vehicles wouldn't be to easy.
AKDejaVu
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and the hatch is welded shut then I 'spose?
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Totally agree with ya Deja, this adds to the immersion, and seeing ricochets at long distances is quite fun too! Excellent game play decision.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Ever heard a tank before?... Ever heard a 37mm go off before?...
I don't imagine a whole lot was done in a running panzer/ostwind via sound recognition (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
Yes and yes. (well 12.7, 20, 25,30, 35, 76.2, 90,105, 155, 203, all kinds of morters and tracked and wheeled ) From my experiance you are incorrect. Sound plays a vital role in locating and identifying the enemy on the battle field. The wide open ranges of AH somewhat curtail the real role that sound plays especially at night, but a better implementation would definalty add to the game.
Your assumption that a given vehicle would be buttoned up and have the main armemment firing and engine running at the time when hearing an m3 going 60mph on the other side of a rise became critical is just that an assumption..
Yes the battle field sounds might mask the critical sound at the critical time. But a good sound system would do that too.
I just think your initial thread is right on the mark but your response about the sounds was not. Improving the sound system to the point where if there was a critical sound that your crew could hear to stop a sneak attack then you hear it and can make the leap to interpretation and action that would only improve the game...
You seem to be saying that it would not.
Is it worth while putting 60% of our cpus to 3d sound processing...no. But it is worth improving...
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Your assumption that a given vehicle would be buttoned up and have the main armemment firing and engine running at the time when hearing an m3 going 60mph on the other side of a rise became critical is just that an assumption..
With aircraft cirling overhead. Its not an assumption.. if those aircraft were trying to straff.. its a fact.
and the hatch is welded shut then I 'spose?
Nah.. they were probably left open for ventilation and aiding in hearing vehicles. Afterall... if one .50 call round made its way in there from a straffing plane, it shouldn't do too much damage... right?
The commander veiw allows you the view necessary to see around you. Hearing vehicles in a heavy battle situation is not your primary target aquisition mode. That has to be a given. When things are exploding, being fired at you, you firing at things... a vehicle nearing you will not register in the same manner. I can't believe this is even a part of this discussion.
Gunfire gets your attention in combat. Explosions get your attention in combat. A loud engine gets your attention when there is no other noise present. That is why I am for bar-dar showing GVs nearing a base... sneaking up should not be possible. But, in a heavy combat situation where numerous aircraft and vehicles are present and firing... SOUND OF VEHICLES WILL NOT MATTER.
AKDejaVu
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Once again. Those are assumptions. Another situtaion is that a lone ostwind is playing sentry at a base that has some dead ground that an m3 is approaching through.
A reasonable person would see that the game would be enhanced by the ability to hear it coming. The faster it moves the farther you hear it.
If the player cant be in the comanders postition then lower their hearing range.
Lots of players spend lots of time in vehicles without jabos overhead....
I have spent lots of time hunting enemy tanks in the rolling hills of the lake map..And in the rolling hills of Alberta. In one I could use sound to try to find and gain advantage over the enemy. In the other I could not. Do you have any idea how loud a panzer would be full throttle in first gear climbing some of the hills in AH?
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Look! I drive a king tiger to work everyday and i aquire my targets by vision.Of course shortly afterwards you hear lots of screaming and crushing grinding sounds BUT unfortunately im completely deaf since that 75mm went off next to my head severing several limbs which i sewed back on with a rusty nail and the cord from my anorak.
why on earth you guys are argueing about something that essentially is obvious?
if you in a noisy tank you wont hear anything and if youre in a quiet/stopped tank you would hear same as usual plus there would be 4 other guys looking and listening.
We are never going to be able to simulate this with 1 player controlling the tank and frankly i dont see why HTC crew should waste valuable time putting it in.
Id rather see more planes myself.
You guys would argue over the chicken and the egg all day wouldnt you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
9./JG54
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Originally posted by hazed-:
You guys would argue over the chicken and the egg all day wouldnt you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Chicken.
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LOL Hazed...
Nothing like presenting your take on the argument then making fun of others for arguing about it.
BTW.. I agree with you.
AKDejaVu
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I guess the nature of the argument is this.
Could a more accurate simualtion be made by improving the sound system.
A flat no is not true.
An "I dont care about sound improvement vs other planes" is more honest.
My opinion is that not only would it be more accurate but it would be worthwhile somewhere down the road.
When someone states as fact a postion that precludes any enchancment in the future. I assume it is all right to debate the issue a little. I have not driven a Kingtiger to work. But I have driven severl modern MBTs and spent alot of time in the field training with and against tanks and other armoured vehicles, and sound is very important. Did you know that one of the signifigant and noted advantages of the M1 Abrams is how comparitivly quiet it is?
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Okay, WWII tanks are a different beast than a M1 Abrams... they were built for speed or durability, not to be the quietest kid on the block.
-SW
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<whiney 2 year old mode> No Rip...it was the eeeeeegggg. WAHHHHHH Mommy! Rip is picking on me again!!! <whiney 2 year old mode off>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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totally agree with Pongo.
DjV, you can tell me all you like that I wont hear a thing with the engine running, gun firing and planes straffing me.
But when the skies are clear, I've stopped and shut the engine off, I'm out of the tank in the machine gun postion (no bloody hatch, ok?) and nuthin's shootin at me.....then I should damn well be able to hear stuff.
However, I also agree with Hazed.....MORE PLANES! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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When you are in the main gun position in an Ostwind, there IS no buttoning up.
The F3 views in vehicles, IMO, was an accurate representation of effective peripheral vision on the part of the gunner.
Same for all other vehicles. The only exception would be the driver's/gunner's possition in a panzer. And even then, most tank commanders remained (and still remain) unbuttoned and riding the "high seat" until contact is imminent, or until an enemy is encountered. Once again, the F3 view represented the closest you can get on a CRT to true peripheral vision.
This worked perfectly in 1.06, and any changes made were strictly concessions to the fighter sim enthusiasts.
This was one of the changes that motivated me to stop sending HTC my money.
Now, therefore, inasmuch as I am no longer sending HTC any money, it probably behooves me to stop coming to their boards and pissing and moaning. Bye all!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Degas (edited 05-29-2001).]
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On that we agree swoop.
But nobody sits waiting for things to happen in AH. Everything is reactionary. Ground vehicles come out defensively when dar tells you something is near.
The sound would be a nice addition... but it is by no means anything that would aid greatly in field defense. And I'm all for it when HTC properly models defening caused by explosions/gunfire and simulates hearing protection.
Right now, the addition of vehicle sounds means that you could sit in a panzer, FP or whatever with the engine off firing away.. just keeping an ear open for something that may be sneaking in for a noise you know has to register because, afterall, this is a computer game and everything is consistant. At that time, you start looking for the GV you know to be there and you know to be enemy.
While being realistic to model vehicle noise, it would be more of a gaming devise than a reality check.... unless all sound effects and things affecting hearing could be modeled.
AKDejaVu
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'But nobody sits waiting for things to happen in AH. Everything is reactionary. Ground vehicles come out defensively when dar tells you something is near.
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incorrect. In the tank stalking scenario that happens while you are pushing atacking enemy back to their spawn point to vulch them. A listening halt would be a real tactical feature.
'The sound would be a nice addition... but it is by no means anything that would aid greatly in field defense. And I'm all for it when HTC properly models defening caused by explosions/gunfire and simulates hearing protection.
'
No it would not aid greatly. But the fight you won because you stopped to listen would be the one you remember...The rest is just silly but you know that. Maybe the effect of a fragmentation round on the commander if he is exposed is a good example of the downside of listening halts.
'Right now, the addition of vehicle sounds means that you could sit in a panzer, FP or whatever with the engine off firing away.. just keeping an ear open for something that may be sneaking in for a noise you know has to register because, afterall, this is a computer game and everything is consistant. At that time, you start looking for the GV you know to be there and you know to be enemy.'
You are asuming some limitations that may or may not be unavoidable. I dont know. But the scenario you describe is not unrealistic. You would sit there with the engine off in a good fire position blazing away. If the commander was crew exposed and had one of his ear pieces up he would hear something climbing a hill full speed 400 yards away. He could investigate or not. But the scenario you describe is far from a good reason not to persue a better sound system for the game. It is an excellent reason to do so.
'While being realistic to model vehicle noise, it would be more of a gaming devise than a reality check.... unless all sound effects and things affecting hearing could be modeled.'
Once again I dont know the limitations. But even the flavour of what kinds of advantages that using sound on the battle field can give would improve the sim. It would also give more advantage to wheeled armoured vehicles as they of course run much more quietly.
But I aggree. It is hard to justifly the probably signifigant effort required by HT to implement the kind of 3d sound enviroment that would be necessary to make it worth while. I just didnt want the opinion that sound is not used on the battle field to go unapposed.
And I would love the excuse to get a real nice 5 speaker sound system for my computer.
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When you are in the main gun position in an Ostwind, there IS no buttoning up.
LOL!
My grandfather was on an armored artillery vehicle in WW2. He told me a pretty amuzing story about the one time the enemy had apparently spotted them and started lobbing shells in their direction. They didn't turn the turret and try to kill them first.. they ran for their lives.
I kinda get the feeling the same would happen in an ostwind. They aren't intended to be front line vehicles facing heavy enemy artillery opposition. And they weren't intended to be used against armored ground vehicles.
Its just a case where a-typical behavior is the norm in a game... and realism ruins the fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
<edit>quoted the wrong damn sentance<edit>
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 05-29-2001).]