Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Pongo on March 01, 2004, 01:10:52 AM
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Bannana republic coup attempts, fake general strikes, now a fake recall.
Is there anything the US wont support in pursuit of the destruction of Venezuelian democracy? What happend to a goverment for the people of the people?
Ultimatly will Bush be willing to invade Venezuela if Chavez denies the US oil?
Why is democracy in central america so scary?
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LOL! you're funny pongo.
MiniD
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Pongo, you'er not a clown. So why do you try so hard to ack like one?
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isn't Venezuela supporting terrorism?
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"If a recall vote is aborted over and above the protestations of international observers, Chavez will have clearly violated the Venezuelan constitution he himself drafted, and he will clearly have stepped outside the bounds of even the most bare-bones definition of democracy. He appears, as of today, very close to joining his hero Fidel Castro as the hemisphere's second out-and-out dictator. "
I think this ^^ sums it up nicely.
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Maybe someones are thinking that the USmocrazy or was it USOlimocrazy is way much better than democrazy... :rolleyes:
Protec the the way of the "Nothing wins the cubic inch!" way of life!
:D
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Originally posted by Xjazz
Maybe someones are thinking that the USmocrazy or was it USOlimocrazy is way much better than democrazy... :rolleyes:
Protec the the way of the "Nothing wins the cubic inch!" way of life!
:D
Ahhh, yes, yes...Eviiiiiiiiiiil Ameerika! Deth to Boosh!~
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, yes, yes...Eviiiiiiiiiiil Ameerika! Deth to Boosh!~
Correct!
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I bet his girlfriend would prefer a big-bore, thumping, large displacement engine to a leetle-bitty small bore, whining, hi-revving mouse motor.
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Chavez is bad for the country, and he's doing great, long-term damage to the economy in order to make short term bribes to the unemployed. His role model, BTW, is Fidel Castro.
Venezuelan turmoil
The 2002 strike was the fourth such attempt to drive Chavez from office since he was first elected in 1998. While most strikes tend to be led from disenfranchised sectors, the Chavez opposition is lead by the employed, from blue-collar unions to senior corporate managers. Chavez was elected on a populous ticket with the overwhelming support of Venezuela's unemployed poor. He won a re-election in 2000 to a six-year term. Chavez is openly against globalization, provides free oil to Cuba and established the tone of his government early on by making high-profile visits to Iraq, Libya and Iran. His efforts are seen by some as an attempt to establish a state along the lines of Cuba's Castro regime.
On the domestic front, he has sought to re-nationalize Venezuela's oil industry in order to finance sweeping social programs. Of a practical nature, his "reforms" raise questions about the long-term viability of Venezuela's oil industry to support these efforts, given the relative lack of economic success found with highly regulated state industries.
December 2, 2002, saw the strike commence with a general shutdown of PdVSA following soon afterwards. Oil provides about half of Venezuela's income and a third of its gross domestic product, and has become the political lever of choice for both the government and the opposition.
The Chavez government acted quickly to break the strike, particularly where PdVSA was concerned, bringing in retired and foreign oil workers and using the military to keep operations open. He fired many of the company's strikers, and replaced senior managers with loyal outsiders. Through these efforts, PdVSA was able to reestablish some production before the strike fizzled out on February 4. Today, production is said to have returned to near normal levels, although this is hotly disputed.
While the strikers failed, losing face in the process, Chavez has also failed to significantly improve the lives of Venezuela's poor. Only time will tell where the political situation will settle out in coming years.
http://www.petroretail.net/npn/archives/0308/0308cgo.asp
Generally, he is turning an expanding, wealth-producing international oil industry into a controllable also ran regional oil industry.
[cut and paste, but I did write it to begin with :)]
Charon
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
"If a recall vote is aborted over and above the protestations of international observers, Chavez will have clearly violated the Venezuelan constitution he himself drafted, and he will clearly have stepped outside the bounds of even the most bare-bones definition of democracy. He appears, as of today, very close to joining his hero Fidel Castro as the hemisphere's second out-and-out dictator. "
I think this ^^ sums it up nicely.
lol
Thanks Rip. I couldnt have found a better example of the US state department lineing up the Venezuelan democrocy for "regime change".
The US has been trying to erase the results of the presidential election in Venezuala since they were counted. Again. Why the fear of democracy in Venezuala?
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if we find any oil in canada we will rig your elections too... probly be better off.
lazs
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Originally posted by Pongo
lol
Thanks Rip. I couldnt have found a better example of the US state department lineing up the Venezuelan democrocy for "regime change".
The US has been trying to erase the results of the presidential election in Venezuala since they were counted. Again. Why the fear of democracy in Venezuala?
First off its "Democracy", not Democrocy. Secondly, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that we want a dictatorship in that country? I believe that the election results were condemned by an international watch dog group, saying they were tainted. (Shrugs)
Maybe I'm having difficulty understanding where you're coming from, possibly from induced sarcasm that I've yet to understand.
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LOL Laz you rock!
I am still chuckling over your last statement!
Laz for President!!
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DETH TO VENREEKA!!!
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More sniveling from the leftists who howled about the California recall. The problem here is the left can't see the forest for the trees as usual. The people of Venezuela are in effect conducting the same exercise that the people of California did last year. Of course thats a scary analogy to the left.
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I heard the focus of 'Regime Change' was going to shift away from oil, to Self-righteous, little, whining countries.
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As an alternate view to Charon's proferred article:
A third OPEC country which has recently fallen out with the US government is Venezuela and it too has been showing disloyalty to the dollar. Under Hugo Chavez's rule, Venezuela has established barter deals for trading its oil with 12 Latin American countries as well as Cuba. This means that the US is missing out on its usual subsidy and might help explain the American wish to see the back of Chavez. At the OPEC summit in September 2000, Chavez delivered to the OPEC heads of state the report of the 'International Seminar on the Future of Energy', a conference called by Chavez earlier that year to examine the future supplies of both fossil and renewable energies. One of the two key recommendations of the report was that 'OPEC take advantage of high-tech electronic barter and bi-lateral exchanges of its oil with its developing country customers', i.e. OPEC should avoid using both the dollar and the euro for many transactions.
Cóilín Nunan: Oil, Currency and the War on Iraq (http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm)
Well it isn't in an retail oil/petrol trade magazine that's entirely funded by advertising from the oil & petroleum industry (stop me if I'm wrong). Furthermore the Citgo article has the stench of a advert deal and an editorial initiated by sales. ;). I see Citgo is a wholly owned subsidiary of Petroleos de Venezuela S.A., the company whose entire board was sacked by Chavez in January 2002 and then mostly reinstated a couple of weeks later, a move that angered it's executives. No sour grapes there, then.
This Cóilín Nunan guy of course has his own anti-corporate greenie axe to grind, but somewhere between the two articles we might just find a glimmer of the truth.
That said, US policy in Latin America seems to have long held the belief that democracy is a bad idea. Possibly because those democratic governments have a nasty habit of nationalising stuff that a lot of multinational corporations want.
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Originally posted by -dead-
That said, US policy in Latin America seems to have long held the belief that democracy is a bad idea. Possibly because those democratic governments have a nasty habit of nationalising stuff that a lot of multinational corporations want.
Democratically elected govenments don't nationalize industries, dictators do.
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Originally posted by Otto
I heard the focus of 'Regime Change' was going to shift away from oil, to Self-righteous, little, whining countries.
Hey!
He threatend us...We're being opressed!
Most americans dont have a clue what their goverment does or the effects of its policies. The exact same action can be either demonic or angelic, impossible or unavoidable depending on what the box tells them to think.
The US has been blatently turning on the propaganda machine against Venezuala since Bush took power.
Canada makes tax revenue from the sale of its natrural resources, as does the US and most every other country. The US has invaded Iraq to set up just shuch a scheme. But if the Venezualans try to do just that they are mad. They are "destabilizing" their overwhelmingly popular elected president is a dictator. Bent on a mad scheme of paying for a better life for the people that elected him by taxing oil exports to pay for infastructure that the oligachy totaly neglected while they skimmed the profits of oil production for themselves.
Taxing Oil producion is now equated with Castro.
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spot on pongo.
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Democratically elected govenments don't nationalize industries, dictators do.
Obviosly there are many on this board that can read Orwell and not see what the big deal is.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Most americans dont have a clue what their goverment does or the effects of its policies.
Well, it's a good thing we have you Canudians to give us a clue, then.
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Originally posted by ygsmilo
Democratically elected govenments don't nationalize industries, dictators do.
- Mossadegh in Iran in '53
- Nasser in Egypt '56
- Lumumba in the Congo '61
So true....Not!
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Originally posted by lazs2
if we find any oil in canada we will rig your elections too... probly be better off.
lazs
good thing your super space spy sattelites cant see northern alberta...
wait a minute...this entire scandal...you did it to ensure the conservatives actually have a chance...i knew something was up...this probably has something to do with that cult your creating in maine (why else would you need so many guns)...;) :p
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, yes, yes...Eviiiiiiiiiiil Ameerika! Deth to Boosh!~
Your right!
It should be US-Oilmocrazy
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Originally posted by Martlet
Well, it's a good thing we have you Canudians to give us a clue, then.
Im a neutral observer..not an explainer.
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Chavez is an evil jerk, and just this side of a dictator. The general strike certainly wasn't fake. The US has been pretty quiet about Venezuela considering the **** that Chavez has done to the country. But by same token he fired/laid off over 100,000 years worth of experiance from the Venezuelan oil industry and replaced those workers with contractors from US oil companies.
Chavez is raping that country. All this is according to a collegue of mine...who actually happens to be a Venezuelan-Canadian. He came back when Chavez was elected because he was actually one of the few that saw the writing on the wall. Chaves and democracy shouldn't be used in the same sentence.
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Originally posted by Torque
- Mossadegh in Iran in '53
- Nasser in Egypt '56
- Lumumba in the Congo '61
So true....Not!
Ya got me there, gotta stop posting while the markets are open.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Obviosly there are many on this board that can read Orwell and not see what the big deal is.
I thought you were a neutral observer..not an explainer.
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Originally posted by Pongo
The US has been blatently turning on the propaganda machine against Venezuala since Bush took power.
Ah, there it is...was just a matter of time before we came down to what the post is really about...(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
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Originally posted by Pongo
Im a neutral observer..not an explainer.
That's odd. You didn't sound very neutral
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Well it isn't in an retail oil/petrol trade magazine that's entirely funded by advertising from the oil & petroleum industry (stop me if I'm wrong). Furthermore the Citgo article has the stench of a advert deal and an editorial initiated by sales…
Stop, you're wrong. NPN has been editorially independent since we spoke out against Standard Oil in 1909. Advertising is not linked to editorial. Now, Citgo does advertise, as do a lot of companies (though few oil companies actually), but you don't stay in business for 95 years by running advertorials.
What is surprising, is your take on the article’s slant. I’ll just put it down to your ignorance of the oil industry and the magazine and its readership. Considering the integration of Citgo and PdVSA pointing out the political instabilities hardly serves Citgo, but it does serve our readers who own chains of gas stations and wholesale operations and decide if they want to brand Citgo, or Mobil or whatever. Citgo did a great job dealing with the loss in Venezuelan production during the strike, which, given their supply dynamics (50 percent crude from Venezuela) was an accomplishment worthy of reporting. Equally worth reporting (but hardly favorable), was the continued political unrest and potential supply disruptions and even the potential sale of Citgo to Nigerian or Malaysian oil concerns.
I see Citgo is a wholly owned subsidiary of Petroleos de Venezuela S.A., the company whose entire board was sacked by Chavez in January 2002 and then mostly reinstated a couple of weeks later, a move that angered it's executives. No sour grapes there, then.
LOL, not by me or by Citgo’s top executive at the time. I asked Oswaldo Contreras, Citgo’s CEO, just how stable things were with the PdVSA/Citgo/Chavez relationship (largely related to debt and funding issues, as well as political). He assured me all was well -- seemed very positive -- a good counterpoint (on message of course) to the other stuff I would be pointing out. Not a bad guy for an ex Venezuelan General, very affable and casual. Two weeks later and he’s sacked, which required quite the rewrite past deadline. I bet there are some sour grapes now, but then he wasn’t really one of those Western capitalist types to begin with. Chavez appointed him CEO in 2000, though apparently he was more Ali Rodriguez’s guy (see below).
According to Petroleumworld.com, a Web site focused on the Venezuelan and Latin American oil industry, this is just another page in a recent fight for control of the company between Chavez and his Fifth Republic Movement, or MVR party, PdVSA president Ali Rodriguez a senior member of the Nation For All, or PPT party and the Venezuelan military. Although PPT is a leftist party that has been aligned with MVR since 1999, it is also a competitive party that is increasingly seen as being more opponent than ally, according to local analysts.
Your link is hardly unbiased.
It is clear that the configuration of the liberal democratic state is not capable of achieving sustainable environmental and economic outcomes. At the core of this incapacity is the contraction in political participation, and the limiting of discursive dialogue, accorded to citizens and non-citizens by the institutions of the western nation-state. It is therefore appropriate that groups such as FEASTA - dedicated to a solution-based approach - initiate, and complement existing, debate and reflection on constructing alternative democratic models.
The assumption that Chavez bartering oil with Castro for Panama hats will somehow convince the Saudi’s to barter oil with Switzerland for fine chocolates or switch to euros even, is a bit of a stretch now. Though if things did get nasty politically to the point where it was worth a wold-wide financial crisis to put the US in its place you just might see it (the euros that is).
As it stands in today’s world (not the Star Trek one we would all like to see, myself included) the problem with reverting to a backwater national oil company is that Venezuela already has a number of challenges without Chavez. The crude is heavy and sour, requiring a special refining infrastructure to process economically. Citgo has that, along with a solid marketing infrastructure in the USA, but there’s been talk of his selling Citgo as part of his regional initiatives. Citgo and PdVSA were also set to expand throughout Latin America, and now that’s been halted (a bit counter even to what is suggested in your link). From the US perspective, all oil supplies are important these days, but the 13 percent crude the USA receive from Venezuela could be adjusted even further downward (it was 19% in 1997) given a little time.
Of course the Bush administration would like to see him removed (for self-serving oil related reasons), but frankly so does anyone with anything going on in Venezuela. Chavez promises bribes to the unemployed (who are also getting a bit tired of not seeing all that manna fall from heave after a decade), while the radicals tend to be just about anyone with a job -- not just senior management. I’m not a big fan of the Bush administration’s international policy and acknowledge our history of banana dictatorships and neocolonialism in the region. But supporting a Chavez “democracy” is stretching things quite a bit.
Charon
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If any of the nonsense about Chaves being evil had any grounds at all it would be all over the press instantaneosly.
Instead we get the same negative slant pap that propaganda machines churn out as a matter of policy.
The very first actions of the US sponsored "goverment" that tried to over throw chavez was to disband the parliment and rip up the constitution.
And Ripsnort. If anything I was saying was true would you blame anyone other then Bush? Do you think anyone else sets the aggenda of the state department?
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"Of course the Bush administration would like to see him removed (for self-serving oil related reasons), but frankly so does anyone with anything going on in Venezuela."
Honest statment. Far better then deniying what is going on and for whos benifit. But the 80% of the population whose lives might be made a little better by a more fair distribution of the oil revenues do not see it that way and the only way to keep it as controled as Bush and co want it is to remove thier ability to select thier own leaders.
So back to my original question for which I have been soundly roasted.
Why is democracy bad for Venezuela?
Cause its bad for big oil..
Correct?
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Please demonstrate that
1. Bush or the US caused any of this (coup attempts, strike, referendum).
2. The referendum is anti-Democratic.
Otherwise have an AFDB (http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html) and a tall frosty mug of STFU.
BAD TROLL!
BAD TROLL!
Thx, drive thru.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, yes, yes...Eviiiiiiiiiiil Ameerika! Deth to Boosh!~
OH OH...Wait a minute. The last time I was there I distinctly remember seeing some weapons of mass destruction. Oil you say...???
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FIGHT BIG OIL...BURN YOUR CARS , YOUR TRUCKS ...YOUR SUVS....RIDE THE BUS.....DOWN WITH BIG OIL
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What press Pongo? North American? European? Neither regions presses gives a flying **** about South America because thier audiences don't give a flying **** about South America.
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Originally posted by Charon
[cut and paste, but I did write it to begin with :)]
Good read. Now we know how come yous can writes so good. ;)
I agree that Chavez is not good for Venezuela. Nationalistic dictators usually aren't good for any country.
Yet, I don't believe that it should be the place of the US to expend its resources to remove a government so as to supplant it with one of our own design. We have a terrible track record of picking the wrong person to be the replacement "leader" (right up through today and our selection of Ahmed Chalabi). When the people of Venezuela have had enough, they will instill the change that they desire...as in Haiti now.
BTW Charon, I recall pulling a few articles from NPN for a legislative member I was working with a couple of years ago. He hadn't heard of the practice of zone pricing before. I can't recall the author, but your name sounds familiar.
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Pongo, there's a big difference between wanting someone out of office and being the driving force behind the revolts.
One is common sense, they other is conspiracy theory and quite laughable.
Reason does not equate to cause. You've yet to hint at anything that says otherwise. It's time to stop calling everyone else ignorant and show that you're not.
MiniD
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Well I guess the difference is between not caring and saying nothing. and not carring and saying what the State Department wants you to say.
Wow Ripsnort. I find it hard to believe you got upset enough about this to send me a boot record virus. Hope your boys learn how to treat people with other ideas then you from dear old dad.
If you find the simple truth about your goverments actions so troubleing that you would behave in that way. Imagine what men will do for practically limitless wealth at the expense of other men.
Never the less we now have a popularly elected dictator in Venezuala and a non elected champion of democracy in America.
The "dictator" has improved the freedoms of his coutry men 10 fold. The other diminished the freedoms of his countrymen 10 fold.
You worship one and revile the other.
I think we should leave it to the people of Venezuala to decide who should lead them and the US should just take their little recall campaign to Washington DC.
Oh ya. No federal recall law is there..
The thread though called a troll by some is not entirly useless. the mindless drones of the neocons have been told what to think so at least we comunicated their hating orders..
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What is it you were saying about mindlessness and propoganda again pongo?
MiniD
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Please demonstrate that
1. Bush or the US caused any of this (coup attempts, strike, referendum).
2. The referendum is anti-Democratic.
Otherwise have an AFDB (http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html) and a tall frosty mug of STFU.
BAD TROLL!
BAD TROLL!
Thx, drive thru.
What proof would you accept Funked.? You accept the word of the state deparment fed press without proofs.
What proofs exists are redely available to any one that wants to type
"chavez coup" into google.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Wow Ripsnort. I find it hard to believe you got upset enough about this to send me a boot record virus. Hope your boys learn how to treat people with other ideas then you from dear old dad.
Ahhh, excuse me? I don't even have your email address. And before you make claims like that, best get your facts straight, son.
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Originally posted by Mini D
What is it you were saying about mindlessness and propoganda again pongo?
MiniD
You know. propoganda (http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/venez020412.html)
where could such an untrue account of events come from?
Of course all sides do it..who is to be (http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/film/review.htm) believed?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, excuse me? I don't even have your email address. And before you make claims like that, best get your facts straight, son.
ah must be someone else that goes by your handle.
................ripsnort@earthlink.net
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Gentlemen, please, this can all be settled by sending a sniper down on a secret mission....
Sorry, couldn't resist....:o
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Originally posted by Pongo
You know. propoganda (http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/venez020412.html)
where could such an untrue account of events come from?
It must be the CIA!Of course all sides do it..who is to be (http://www.chavezthefilm.com/html/film/review.htm) believed?
When did you see this film? Or do you just talk **** based on what you read on the internet?
Afterall, you came in here condemning 80% of America as ignorant because you have some kind of special knowledge of all that is Venezuela. Let me guess... you did a bit of time down there. That's the best way to become an expert on a region... spend a few months there. It's how I became an expert on Colombia. I now know more about it than 80% of Canada and all of Colombia.
Here's another point... nothing you pointed to suggests anything as far as U.S. involvement. A brief mention of it getting our "attention" in a flippant manner... but nothing else. You ever wonder why that is?
I believe you spend too much time finding ways for the U.S. to be directly responsible for too much. I also believe you give most of the world too little credit for their actions... unless they happen to be 80% of the U.S... then you're more than happy to assign what you feel to be the proper credit.
MiniD
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BTW Charon, I recall pulling a few articles from NPN for a legislative member I was working with a couple of years ago. He hadn't heard of the practice of zone pricing before. I can't recall the author, but your name sounds familiar.
Probably me Crow. Was it the "Are the Majors Exiting Retail" article? I just did another 5,000 words on zone pricing and non-price vertical restraints last month. One of the two or three articles from hell you create each year where you have 10 sources and 10,000 words of quotes and 15 ideas trying to sort themselves out 2 days after edit close.
Honest statment. Far better then deniying what is going on and for whos benifit. But the 80% of the population whose lives might be made a little better by a more fair distribution of the oil revenues do not see it that way and the only way to keep it as controled as Bush and co want it is to remove thier ability to select thier own leaders.
So back to my original question for which I have been soundly roasted.
Why is democracy bad for Venezuela?
Cause its bad for big oil..
Correct?
I agree with Crow about our track record at nation building in Latin America and the fact that we should just keep our hands off. Let them get the democratic dictator they deserve. But, it's not really clear that Bush is going to heroic efforts to get rid of Chavez (unlike Hussein), though clearly life would be easier without him in power. In fact, the strikes generally serve to distract the uneducated poor who vote for him from the fact that for all the promises he has made there has been little real change. Before the last one there was growing unrest and sinking support among his base, but Chavez's ability to outlast the strikers gave him a public relations "victory" that boosted support back up above pre-strike levels. I suppose we’ll really see how democratic Chavez is when he loses his first election.
Frankly, I don't really know that in the long term Big Oil really cares all that much about Venezuela. There are price spikes now over his threats to cut production (which boost oil industry profits btw -- what a tragedy for big oil), but I doubt we'll see a 1973 any time soon unless there is a major disruption in the Middle East. (We may see record prices this summer btw, for a variety of reasons. Just have to wait and see.) Plus you don't necessarily need to replace Chavez, you can just continue to work to steadily to replace Venezuelan crude with other sources of supply. Now there’s Iraq. More a Saudi hedge, IMO, but oil is oil.
Charon
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
"If a recall vote is aborted over and above the protestations of international observers, Chavez will have clearly violated the Venezuelan constitution he himself drafted, and he will clearly have stepped outside the bounds of even the most bare-bones definition of democracy. He appears, as of today, very close to joining his hero Fidel Castro as the hemisphere's second out-and-out dictator. "
I think this ^^ sums it up nicely.
and to think he is family.. :cool:
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Originally posted by Pongo
What proof would you accept Funked.? You accept the word of the state deparment fed press without proofs.
What proofs exists are redely available to any one that wants to type
"chavez coup" into google.
I'm gettin a whiff of boozonics here. Good times. :aok
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Mini
I have indeed seen the film. I havent read the rest of your rant. question asked and answered.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I'm gettin a whiff of boozonics here. Good times. :aok
Well read up and decide for your self funky.
or just type "death to amerika" and what ever else passes for thought in funky land tonight..
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I like you Pongo, you're like those cool guys with the pasteboard "THE END IS NIGH" signs.
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Yea Pongo you are a cool guy, you reallyt shouldnt be so taken up with weird conspiracy theories.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Well read up and decide for your self funky.
or just type "death to amerika" and what ever else passes for thought in funky land tonight..
My noodle is bigger than yours.
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Pongo why do you think Chaves is a democratic guy?
Reading thrugh the thread your stance reminded me of all those americans in the late 20s and 1930s who were absloulutely convinced the USSR was this great free democratic state lead by a glorious peoples revolutinary stalin... Why be so naive?
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Probably me Crow. Was it the "Are the Majors Exiting Retail" article?
I seem to recall one had a cute title, like "The Price is Right" and the other escapes me...maybe the "Mathematics of Pricing" or some such. Anyway...small world, huh.
Zone pricing is a very interesting subject, and I'm surprised more folks don't know about how their local prices are determined.
The economist side of me would really like to see the mathematical model that the brand suppliers use. I'm sure it is pretty amazing. But I'd guess it is also a very closely held secret.
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Originally posted by Pongo
ah must be someone else that goes by your handle.
................ripsnort@earthlink.net
That email addy has been invalid for over a year. I've been on Comcast. Did it ever occur to you that someone thats infected might have an old email address of mine? Did it occur to you that these viruses go out and spread themselves via others address books?
:rolleyes:
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Charon---
could you send me an email to MikeO@fcstone.com I have a question to ask you.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
That email addy has been invalid for over a year. I've been on Comcast. Did it ever occur to you that someone thats infected might have an old email address of mine? Did it occur to you that these viruses go out and spread themselves via others address books?
:rolleyes:
Sorry rip. It is unlikely you would send such a thing with your handle in it.
Timing seemed suspect though.
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Originally posted by Engine
I like you Pongo, you're like those cool guys with the pasteboard "THE END IS NIGH" signs.
lol
Im one of those nutsos that think that invasions and subgegation of democacy are bad unless proven other wise. Most of the posters on this boars seem to think they are bad unless our side does it.
one of my co workers is a Neo-leftist and he has corrupted me.
I found out yesterday that there is such a team as neo-leftist
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Well, what if there was an alien colony on Mars and they voted in a referendum to destroy humanity, is it still wrong to attack them because they're a democracy? Huh? Is it? Well?
Bush would save us from them I think, he could lead us to victory.
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No worries, apology accepted. I'd never do such a thing, well, maybe to Bin Laden...;)
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Originally posted by Engine
Well, what if there was an alien colony on Mars and they voted in a referendum to destroy humanity, is it still wrong to attack them because they're a democracy? Huh? Is it? Well?
Bush would save us from them I think, he could lead us to victory.
He would certainly be the first US president to land on the new space carrier anyway
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Originally posted by Pongo
lol
Im one of those nutsos that think that invasions and subgegation of democacy are bad unless proven other wise. Most of the posters on this boars seem to think they are bad unless our side does it.
one of my co workers is a Neo-leftist and he has corrupted me.
I found out yesterday that there is such a team as neo-leftist
Pongo it's very simple. Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voteing on what to have for lunch. Most successful democracies are republics. A system has to be structured in such a way as to protect the rights of the minority. The U.S. is only an example of a republic, in as much as it is a unique system. There are no other United States of anything in the world. The Venezualan government is not protecting the rights of the minority, i.g. the business and middle classes.
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Originally posted by weaselsan
Pongo it's very simple. Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voteing on what to have for lunch. Most successful democracies are republics. A system has to be structured in such a way as to protect the rights of the minority. The U.S. is only an example of a republic, in as much as it is a unique system. There are no other United States of anything in the world. The Venezualan government is not protecting the rights of the minority, i.g. the business and middle classes.
That is a very interesting view. So your saying that democrosies that do not enshrine and enforce the rights of the rich over the poor will fail? Or will they just be destroyed?
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Originally posted by Pongo
That is a very interesting view. So your saying that democrosies that do not enshrine and enforce the rights of the rich over the poor will fail? Or will they just be destroyed?
Funny how a simple thing like "Rights of the minority" Became rich over the poor. Maybe we should do this very carefully so as not to confuse you. Do you understand the idea that in a true democracy 51% will always have control over 49%, thus having a perpetual state of civil war? Again the tree wolves and a sheep.
There will always be rich and poor. It has been part of the Human experience since pre-history. Your idea of democracy is to prevent anyone from attaining wealth, thus everyone is equally miserable.
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Originally posted by Engine
Well, what if there was an alien colony on Mars and they voted in a referendum to destroy humanity, is it still wrong to attack them because they're a democracy? Huh? Is it? Well?
Bush would save us from them I think, he could lead us to victory.
You tell em' Engine. We'll kick green prettythang till it turns bright pink.
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Small world indeed.
I seem to recall one had a cute title, like "The Price is Right" and the other escapes me...maybe the "Mathematics of Pricing" or some such. Anyway...small world, huh.
The economist side of me would really like to see the mathmatical model that the brand suppliers use. I'm sure it is pretty amazing. But I'd guess it is also a very closely held secret.
Actually, those sound like some of the street price modeling articles covering technology from companies like MPSI and KSS. Same stuff really, only one is at the wholesale pricing level (for direct-supplied dealers) and one is retail pricing. The majors are pretty quiet about the modeling. And, as you're probably aware, a lot of direct dealers have issues with how it operates in "their" zone.
I'll shoot you a copy of the article if you would like -- dry stuff (and really not much new) so don't feel obliged :)
Charon
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Originally posted by weaselsan
Funny how a simple thing like "Rights of the minority" Became rich over the poor. Maybe we should do this very carefully so as not to confuse you. Do you understand the idea that in a true democracy 51% will always have control over 49%, thus having a perpetual state of civil war? Again the tree wolves and a sheep.
There will always be rich and poor. It has been part of the Human experience since pre-history. Your idea of democracy is to prevent anyone from attaining wealth, thus everyone is equally miserable.
Ya its as funny as calling using oil revenue to pay for schools comunism or the man who performs the evil deed a dictator. Dont be so selective of what you find funny.
It makes you look funny.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Ya its as funny as calling using oil revenue to pay for schools comunism or the man who performs the evil deed a dictator. Dont be so selective of what you find funny.
It makes you look funny.
Let's see ....now we have about half the country trying to string a guy up for payng for schools. I'm begining to believe you really are hopeless.
There are two m's in Communism...
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Originally posted by Charon
I'll shoot you a copy of the article if you would like -- dry stuff (and really not much new) so don't feel obliged :)
Sure...I like to keep up to date. You can send to
crowmaw@marinecorps.com
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Originally posted by Engine
Well, what if there was an alien colony on Mars and they voted in a referendum to destroy humanity, is it still wrong to attack them because they're a democracy? Huh? Is it? Well?
Bush would save us from them I think, he could lead us to victory.
Why am I suddenly recalling Caligula leading his army to the sea to fight Poseidon. Then when he comes to the sea, hacking away at it, and proclaiming it a victory and the shells on the beach as spoils?
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I skipped a good bit, but Pongo, welcome to Canada. I hope you enjoy your stay. Myself and many others are happy to inform you that the requirements for involvement in US politics are simply citizinship. We eagerly await the opportunity to turn you down based on the fact that you are simply you.
Farther attempts are accepted, pending proof of you getting your head screwed on straight.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Lazerus
I skipped a good bit, but Pongo, welcome to Canada. I hope you enjoy your stay. Myself and many others are happy to inform you that the requirements for involvement in US politics are simply citizinship. We eagerly await the opportunity to turn you down based on the fact that you are simply you.
Farther attempts are accepted, pending proof of you getting your head screwed on straight.
:rolleyes:
The venezualans wish you had the same attitude to their politics.
You should tell your state department your opinion.
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Originally posted by Pongo
The venezualans wish you had the same attitude to their politics.
You should tell your state department your opinion.
LoL Pongo! That was good! :rofl