Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dune on March 01, 2004, 10:47:29 AM
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http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200403010926.asp
The Return of a Legislative Legend
Debating "cop-killers."
As the Senate considers legislation to prohibit abusive lawsuits against Second Amendment rights, Sen. Ted Kennedy is offering an amendment to ban ammunition. Kennedy claims that he is aiming at "cop-killer" bullets, but he appears to be badly misinformed on the issue.
There never has been any such thing as a "cop-killer" bullet. The issue is a fiction, invented for purposes of politics, not public safety. In any case, since 1986, federal law has prohibited the rare types of handgun ammunition that have unusual abilities to penetrate body armor.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reports that current ammunition laws are fully sufficient to protect the police, and that attempts to change these laws could actually lead to increased police fatalities. Notwithstanding this strong warning, some lobbyists and politicians continue to play on public misunderstanding, by using the so-called "cop-killer" issue to demand the power to ban standard rifle ammunition used for hunting.
POLITICAL ORIGINS
The story of the nonexistent "cop-killer" bullet actually begins in 1976 in Massachusetts, when a handgun-confiscation initiative was defeated in a landslide. Then, in 1982 in California, a handgun-"freeze" initiative also lost overwhelmingly. The gun-prohibition lobbies began to realize that they would have to work more incrementally, rather than pushing for prohibition outright.
The prohibition lobbies also realized that the police were one of their worst problems. While a few police chiefs or sheriffs could always be found to support prohibition, the vast majority of police — both commanders and line officers — were "pro-gun," and extremely skeptical of gun control. Something had to be done to turn the police (or at least their Washington lobbyists) against the National Rifle Association.
The something, ironically, was an obscure type of ammunition invented by police officers two decades before. These bullets were known as KTW bullets, after the initials of the three persons who invented them for use in SWAT teams: Dr. Paul Kopsch and two police officers named Turcus and Ward.
While ordinary bullets have a lead core, the KTW bullets used brass or iron. The KTW bullet has a conical shape, and was especially designed for shooting through glass or a car door. Of course neither the KTW bullet nor any other bullet was invented for the purpose of killing police officers.
KTW bullets have not been available for sale to the general public since the 1960s.
TEFLON BULLETS?
"Cop-killer" bullets are sometimes called "Teflon bullets," but this name reflects a serious misunderstanding. For example, in the movie Lethal Weapon 3, a so-called "Teflon bullet" from a medium-power handgun was supposedly able to penetrate several inches of hardened steel on a bulldozer blade. In the real world, however, no bullet could possibly perform such a stunt.
Actually, a Teflon coating is applied to the outside of a wide variety of ordinary ammunition. Teflon reduces the lead abrasion caused by the bullet's movement down the barrel of the gun. Thus, the barrel is kept cleaner, and is protected from excessive wear. Also, reduced abrasion means that fewer tiny lead air particles are produced, so the air is cleaner — an especially important consideration at indoor shooting ranges.
In addition, a Teflon coating on a bullet also makes the bullet safer to use in a self-defense context. The Teflon helps the bullet "grab" a hard surface such as glass or metal, and thus significantly reduces the risk of a dangerous ricochet. Similarly, canes or walking sticks are often coated with Teflon, so that they will not slip on hard, smooth surfaces.
So in order to reduce ricochets, KTW bullets as well as many ordinary types of defensive ammunition use Teflon or similar substances.
BODY ARMOR
As police officers know, the vests that they wear are "bullet-resistant," not "bullet-proof." The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives explains that "armor protection is rated in accordance with a specific threat. There is no such thing as 'bullet-proof' armor."
Manufactured from Kevlar (a synthetic fiber that is five times stronger than steel), body armor comes in a variety of grades. The higher the grade, the bulkier and less comfortable the armor is to wear, but the more ammunition it can stop. The highest grades of armor are often called "tactical armor" or "hard armor," and may contain steel or titanium.
At the top of the scale is Threat Level IV armor, which can stop even a high-powered rifle bullet. It takes a very strong vest to stop a big-game hunting-rifle bullet: The bullet travels at a high velocity, due to the long length of the rifle barrel; and has a large mass, since a hunting-rifle bullet must be large enough to bring down a moose, elk, or other large mammal.
Almost the only people who wear hard armor are SWAT team members on high-risk missions. Far more common for ordinary police use is "soft" body armor, made from Kevlar, and rated at Threat Levels IIA through IIIA. Level IIA armor can stop most handgun ammunition, while Level IIIA can stop almost any handgun bullet. Handgun ammunition is much easier to stop than rifle ammunition, since the handgun barrel is much shorter (less velocity) and handgun bullets are smaller (less mass).
POLICE OFFICER SAFETY
Even before the 1986 law restricting "armor-piercing ammunition," there had never been a case of a police officer killed with such ammunition penetrating a vest. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms studied every police-officer shooting in the years 1985-94 and reported: "No law enforcement officer in the United States has died as a result of a round of armor piercing ammunition, as defined, having been fired from a handgun, subsequently penetrating an officer's protective body armor causing lethal injuries."
Indeed, the BATF concluded that in the period studied, there had not been any instances of officers being killed by any type of handgun ammunition penetrating body armor.
Unfortunately, some public officials have made misleading claims about officer safety. For example, in 1995 President Clinton announced his support for a massive new ban on many ordinary types of ammunition. In the speech, President Clinton spoke emotionally about a Chicago police officer who had been fatally shot because a "cop-killer" bullet penetrated his vest. There was only one problem with the story: It wasn't true. The officer was shot by a criminal who used ordinary ammunition. One shot hit the officer in the head. Another shot went through an opening in the vest. No shot penetrated the vest.
CONGRESSIONAL LEGISLATION
Although the "cop-killer"-bullet issue had no factual substance, it was politically potent. As with so many other terms invented by gun-prohibition lobbyists, the very name served to bias the debate in favor of prohibition. The national media showed little interest in reporting facts such as the origin of the KTW bullet, or that the KTW was not for sale to the public, or that no police officer had ever been shot at or killed with such a bullet, or that Teflon didn't make bullets more powerful.
Once the bait was set, the switch was made. New York Democratic Rep. Mario Biaggi (who would later leave Congress due to felony convictions involving extensive personal corruption) introduced a bill to outlaw all ammunition capable of penetrating soft body armor if fired from a handgun with a six-inch barrel. This could lead to a ban on most rifle ammunition, since most rifle ammunition will penetrate soft body armor, and many common types of rifle ammunition fit some handguns. Soft body armor is designed to stop handgun ammunition, not rifle ammunition.
When this fact was pointed out, media figures sneered that gun owners wanted to go deer-hunting with cop-killer Teflon bullets — as if deer were wearing body armor.
As the debated continued, the constant repetition of the phrase "cop-killer bullet" helped drive a wedge between Second Amendment groups and many police officers. The Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) — the largest rank-and-file police group in the U.S. — had been an enthusiastic supporter of the McClure-Volkmer Firearms Owners' Protection Act (FOPA), a bill to reform abusive enforcement of the 1968 Gun Control Act.
But after the "cop-killer" controversy, the police group's director switched sides, and announced that FOPA was a grave threat to the lives of police officers. FOPA itself had nothing to do with KTW or Teflon ammunition, but the FOP director's broader point was his anger over the "cop-killer bullet" issue.
Many of the friends of the Second Amendment in Congress and the Reagan White House quietly insisted that something be done to get rid of the controversy.
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THE FEDERAL BAN
Accordingly, the National Rifle Association and Representative Biaggi reached a compromise: Instead of a penetration standard (which would ban most rifle ammunition), a content standard was adopted. The sale or import of handgun ammunition with a significant amount of steel, titanium, or other metal core was outlawed. (The relevant federal regulation specifies that: "armor piercing ammunition" is a handgun bullet "constructed entirely" from " tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium," or with certain kinds of jackets on the bullet.)
An important new protection in the compromise bill required that "armor-piercing ammunition" be so labeled. This prevented people from being prosecuted for the unwitting sale of the newly restricted ammunition. For example, some surplus ammunition imported from Czechoslovakia contained a solid core, rather than a lead core, because there had been a lead shortage in the Czechoslovakia when the ammunition was manufactured.
Biaggi pronounced that the compromise achieved everything he had wanted from the original bill. The NRA spread the word that the vote for the compromise would not be scored as a "wrong" vote.
Severe mandatory prison sentences were enacted for use of federally defined "armor-piercing ammunition" in a violent or drug-trafficking crime. The rarity of the actual misuse of such unusual ammunition is demonstrated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms study of firearms crime in 1985-94, which found that there had only been four prosecutions for use of the ammunition in a crime.
BANNING HUNTING AMMUNITION?
The 1997 BATFE report on the threat to police officers from criminal use of ammunition concluded: "Because the existing laws are working, no additional legislation regarding such laws is necessary. In this matter, to err on the conservative side of the existing status quo laws is to avoid any experimentation with police officer lives that could conceivably lead to numerous additional officer fatalities."
Unfortunately, gun-prohibition lobbies and their congressional allies have continued to call for such dangerous "experimentation," notwithstanding the strong opposition of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Under current proposals, if a bullet can penetrate soft body armor (which is designed to stop handguns, not rifles), it could be outlawed. The Kennedy amendment refers to ammunition "designed" to have "armor-piercing capability." How can one know the inner mind of someone who designed a bullet, perhaps decades ago?
The Kennedy amendment refers to rifle ammunition that has more penetrating capability than "standard" ammunition of the same caliber. In other words, a bureaucrat could decide that "standard" ammunition in a certain caliber has a certain weight and velocity, and any round with a greater weight or velocity could be administratively prohibited.
As the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives urges, the safest approach is to leave existing laws in place — rather than frightening the public and endangering the police in order to score political points. The Fraternal Order of Police agrees, and opposes the Kennedy amendment.
— David Kopel is the research director at the Independence Institute.
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Using cast lead bullets of 250 grains at 1200 fps..my 44 mag will penetrate allmost all soft body armor.
most hunting rifles use slugs in the 100-200 grain range at velocities of 2000 to 4000 fps.
lazs
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ted kenedy is a scum bag. He always has been. I can not believe this poor exscuse for a man keeps getting elected.
How has this ****ing ******* not died of liver failure or a heart attack?
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we need them for deer hunting.
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yep... u need hunting bullets for hunting froggie..
they also work well for hunting politicians if need be. win/win
lazs
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frog,
You need a life. Obviously you didn't read the article. It's a prime example of kennedy. All smoke and no fire.
In experimentation in the department it was found that a new item, the bullet resistant vest, could be defeated if it was over matched by the ammunition or weapon. That is a fact of life that is still true today. We also found that some vests could be defeated with lead bullets with a simple modification to the bullet. Final thing was that almost all vests can be defeated with a blade style weapon of particular design.
Nothing is certain except death and taxes.
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The best available body armor with the best plates will stop a 30.06 FMJ class round. This would be the Interceptor type vest with plates which provides Level IV protection. It's a bit cumbersome at ~17 pounds and it's not something the cops would wear on their daily rounds.
What the cops typically wear is either a Level II or IIIA vest.
Level II isn't much: 9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps or, with extra Kevlar (22 layers), a .357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps.
Level IIIA is better but is still only "pistol caliber protection":
9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps or .44 Magnum at ~1,400 fps with extra Kevlar (30 layers).
So given what the police typically wear...... if they wear any at all on daily patrol..... just about any "deer rifle" round will penetrate their armor. Heck a weak-butt AK-47 round will easily penetrate what the police normally wear without any sort of Teflon coating on the bullet.
Point is, the whole "cop-killer" aspect is hype. Just about any deer rile round is a "cop killer" given the light armor they use.
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Has something like this been posted before? I'm getting a feeling of deja vu here. An article about Ted Kennedy being an ignorant tard about guns and cops, Frogman making a typical tarded lefty comment about guns, Maverick taking the bait. I even remember the "smoke and no fire" comment.
This seems familiar. Heck, it might have even been about body armor before, too.
Weird. I need a nap.
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Tarmac
You can make it easy to avoid in the future. Just put Frog on ignore. It is not like he adds any value most threads.
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lol i was serious, we need them for hunting. I dont hunt, but there is nothing i love more then going to my uncles place for deer meat.
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Originally posted by Toad
Point is, the whole "cop-killer" aspect is hype. Just about any deer rile round is a "cop killer" given the light armor they use.
Yeah, but if they were honest they woldnt have an issue for re-election and Sgt. Riggs would have never been able to shoot through the bulldozer scoop.
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Is there a need for such bullets? Can you kill a deer w/o them? Why would you need a bullet that can defeat a bullet proof vest? Pardon my ignorance, but why would you need the bullet in the first place, regular bullets not work? Are these bullets made for the purpose of defeating vests? If they are, then he has a legit argument, and so do the cops.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Is there a need for such bullets? Can you kill a deer w/o them? Why would you need a bullet that can defeat a bullet proof vest? Pardon my ignorance, but why would you need the bullet in the first place, regular bullets not work? Are these bullets made for the purpose of defeating vests? If they are, then he has a legit argument, and so do the cops.
Did you even read the article?
The point is that half of the bullets out there (ie hunting rifle bullets) will be banned under this proposal - not because they're designed to puncture armor, but because normal police armor just isn't strong enough to stop any regular rifle bullet.
"Indeed, the BATF concluded that in the period studied, there had not been any instances of officers being killed by any type of handgun ammunition penetrating body armor."
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i always hunt deer with my baseball bat,... damm , them deer can run fast
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The Bill will most likely be re-worded. I don't see why any ammo specificaly designed to penetrate body armor should be sold to the public. As for the bullet thru the dozer blade, I once saw The Lone Ranger fire 14 shots without reloading. What's your point?
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Even if the bullet does penetrate, it's lost a lot of it's damage potential.
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I guess I better buy all the cheap czech sliver tip 7.62x54r I can gets my hands on. Cause if they ban steel core ammo I won't beable to find anything cheap.
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Out of curiosity how heavy are the type III and IV armours mentioned - I've used a II and that was bearable - just how feasible are the higher levels in heat during strenuous activity for extended periods?
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LOL, I suppose it's too much to expect that everyone would actually read the article before posting.
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Ted Kennedy found a catchword that 90% of the population is too stupid to research or determine on their own.
So, if you ask Joe Shmo if "cop killer" bullets should be illegal, his knee jerk reaction would most likely be "Well yea".
But if someone reads what you posted and realizes that body armor isnt a perfect science yet...they'd understand that.
The general public probably thinks most cops have armor ala Robocop.
Kennedy's reaching for people's ignorance, which is in abundance.
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The Interceptor with the IV plates is near 17 pounds. The 1/2" III/IV combo plates themselves are about 9.
Sort version is the vest itself (no plates) is IIIA (9mm) and weighs in right around 8 lbs.
Heat? Well, they now build in the attachments for the camelback type hydration units. That says something, I think. ;)
BTW, the Interceptor is new and "hi-tech"; it's much lighter and much more effective. The old PASGT system ("flak jackets") were almost 25 pounds are generally said to be "about IIA". Some sites say 9mm pistol will penetrate the PASGT's.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Even if the bullet does penetrate, it's lost a lot of it's damage potential.
Ok... go stand right over there and put this on. Hold still now...
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Which would you prefer?
Being shot without a vest? Or being shot with a vest?
No one wants to get shot. However, they want the least amount of damage done if thye do.
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u know all the other kennedys died for teds sins right
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"Kennedy claims that he is aiming at "cop-killer" bullets, but he appears to be badly misinformed on the issue."
I'm afraid with Ted, it's not just bullets....
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laser... you might be better off without the vest. If the bullet expands from hitting the vest instead of mking a nice little neat hole in and out... half the energy of my 44 is about 400 lbs or, about what a 45 acp starts out with. Half the energy of a ought 6 hunting round is about 3 times that.... might still go through you after hitting the vest but the hole would be about 3 times as big.
lazs
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Many of these bullets need a certain velocity to fragment. If this isn't done on the vest, it won't be done in the body.
Plus if the bullet expands upon contact with the armor, it will lose a hell of a lot more energy if it gets past.
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Usually, fragmentation is undesirable. It's better for the bullet to expand while retaining the highest percentage of its original weight as possible to increase penetration.
It's true that bullet construction varies and some bullets are built for rapid expansion (varmint bullets) and some for less expansion but deeper penetration. Velocity has quite a bit to do with this aspect.
However, the make-up of these vests and their ratings consider both penetration and blunt trauma. If you research it you'll find that some vests pass against penetration but fail to meet blunt trauma standards.
What Laz is trying to tell you is that wearing a vest does not necessarily guarantee you the "least amount of damage" or that you will live through the experience.
To the extreme,
Case 1. You're shot with say a .308 with no vest and the bullet passes through without expanding (making a .308 hole ) or hitting a vital organ and and you live.
Case 2. You're shot with a .308 with a vest and the vest slows and expands the projectile, you die because the expanded bullet damages a vital organ.
What's the least amount of damage?
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Cop killing bullets are cute and fund.
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toad is correct... most hunting and defense loads are of the "controled expansion" type they are not meant to fragment but to simply expand If, after penetrating your vest... the ought six 180 grain bullet were expanded to 3/4" or so from it's originall .308 diameter yet retained even a paltry 600 or 800 ft/lbs of energy... it would be a 3/4" inch slug penetrating your fragile body at about twice the energy of a .45 slug.
some bullets are meant to fragment but that is a bad idea since any barrier, even heavy clothing tends to make them useless... latest type rounds will penetrate steel but fragment when they no longer have entered something soft.
lazs
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Many of the friends of the Second Amendment in Congress and the Reagan White House quietly insisted that something be done to get rid of the controversy.
I suggest that the controversy be dispersed by televised live fire testing on Kennedy.
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Ya know, you gotta love a guy who thinks the Bureau for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is a convenience store.
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All this talk about "Cop-Killer" bullets bring to mind about an old man who had an intresting way of correcting a few fellas at the gun range.
As I was paying my fees and buying a few targets two guys walk in and ask about ammo that can penatrate bullet proof vests.
Old man Says "I bet you guys want some of them Cop-Killer bullets huh?"
Two guys respond "uh yeah, those are like the only things that will go through a vest right?"
Old man looks at them for a minute, cracks half a smile, and says "You guys dont got much sense do ya? If I had a handgun round that would go through a vest I wouldnt sell them to ya. Cops are out there doing a mighty dangerous job. I'd hate to think I contributed to ones death by knowingly selling ammo that could pass through their vests. Specialy when they come in asking for it"
One of the two guys tried to change what he said by telling the old man that they were not looking to shoot cops they wanted to have the ammo for home defense in the event a would be burglar broke into their homes with a vest. They just wanted to make sure they killed him before ho could harm them or their families.
At this statement it was all the oldman could do to keep from laughing. I myself was about to bust a gut but held my compsure.
The old man looked at these two guys again and said " Let me explain this in terms I hope you can understand. You dont need a bullet to go through a vest to bring someone down who is wearing one. For one thing when a bullet is fired it leaves the gun with alot of energy behind the bullet. The bigger the bullet the more energy behind it and the more it transfer when it hits the vest. It wont go through but the person wearing the vest is going to know they been hit. That energy is going to transfer and spread and anything that is going to give from the transfer is going to give and break or colapse. If its a small caliber bullet it wont have the same effect but then again a vest doesnt cover all parts of the body and you did say you wanted to stop somebody wearing one didnt ya? Of course if you still dont understand what I'm talking about lets go out back. I have a piece of steel you can hold to your chest. I'll hit ya with a sledge hammer I have and then I'll call an ambulance for yeah cause I can pretty much bet you aint gonna get up and do jumping jacks."
At that point I decided I had heard enough. Told the person I didnt want to shoot today after all. Got in my car and left. Of course on the way home I did have to stop a few times to wipe my eyes and catch my breath from laughing so hard. I still laugh thinking about it from time to time like now.
I dont really believe in any form of gun control or ammo control other than in the form of education. In those guys cases they need at least a few months and parental supervision.
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As I remember, this cop killer hangun bullet stuff started about 25 years ago. I worked for the state back then and verified this through the highway patrol... IT'S NOT TRUE.
There were actually two types.
One a bullet with a scored hollow point tip. I believe I have some called Black Tallon. These are actually an old concept called a dumdum, which had an X score on the tip with a knife. The bullet would separate on the score lines and the fragments spread out. These cause damage but would actually be stopped more affectively by a bullet proof vest.
The actual cop killer was a bullet designed by some guy who said he was going to start marketing them. This was the teflon bullet. His claims that it would penetrate a bullet proof vest were proved bogus. It was a hoax and the guy never brought them to market.
However false, it seems the cries to outlaw these evil cop killer bullets has been heard every legislative session since. I don't know if Ted Kennedy is still trying to outlaw them. But some, like Kennedy, will use every opportunity to further restrict fire arms. And if their reasoning is false, it doesn't matter. They will willingly lie, cheat and use every trick in the book to outlaw guns. I think it's because they can't make sheep out of us if we're armed.
If a bullet from a high powered rifle couldn't penetrate a bullet proof vest, it would probably push the vest through the person wearing it.
grizzly
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Originally posted by Dune's article
An important new protection in the compromise bill required that "armor-piercing ammunition" be so labeled. This prevented people from being prosecuted for the unwitting sale of the newly restricted ammunition. For example, some surplus ammunition imported from Czechoslovakia contained a solid core, rather than a lead core, because there had been a lead shortage in the Czechoslovakia when the ammunition was manufactured.
How old is this article? It mentions "Czechoslovakia", but that country was split up into two countries - Slovakia, and the Czech Republic - on 1 January 1993, suggesting that the article is 11 years old. However, it mentions Clinton's actions of 1995.
Why would Ted Kennedy want "cop killer" bullets banned? Just asking. ;)
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Sadly, all my guns were stolen the day they will be listed as illegal. An odd, unhappy coincidence. They got all my ammo too.
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allmost all of the current ex soviet block ammo being manufactured uses both steel cases and steel jakets.. the jackets are a steel alloy and the hollowpoints have serations to the base of the hollowpoint. the slug will expand that far and no farther. Millions of these rounds are made in Russia every year. They will actually spark hitting a metal backstop and are not allowed at some indoor ranges.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Using cast lead bullets of 250 grains at 1200 fps..my 44 mag will penetrate allmost all soft body armor.
most hunting rifles use slugs in the 100-200 grain range at velocities of 2000 to 4000 fps.
lazs
Hey, pump those 44 magnum loads up. My favorites are a Sierra 180 grain JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) clocking at 1800+ FPS, a 240 grain cast bullet at about 1500 FPS, and a 300 grain cast bullet at about 1300 FPS. The gun is a Dan Wesson with a 6" barrel and the barrel gap set at 0.002".
Off hand, I can't remember a hunting rifle using a 100 grain bullet exceeding 4000 FPS. But my old Model 70 220 Swift would push a 55 grain bullet to 4000 FPS. My current Model 770 300 Winchester Magnum with a Shilen barrel will send a 168 Sierra HPBT Match King screaming along at around 3300 FPS.
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Originally posted by Steve
Sadly, all my guns were stolen the day they will be listed as illegal. An odd, unhappy coincidence. They got all my ammo too.
Hmmm...have a scooter stolen and mention it here = never ending comments and jibes.
Have all your guns and ammo stolen = no comment.
(of course if Steve is just "saying" they were all stolen, when in fact he still has all of them and their ammunition and announcing it in a round-about way on an internet BBS = priceless).
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I suggest that the controversy be dispersed by televised live fire testing on Kennedy.
you missed the word "another"
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Curval, you seem to have checked your sense of humor at the door. Please return to the lobby and pick it up, or else once you get there, just keep on walking.
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cvh... I also have a dan wesson... it is not as heavy duty as my redhawk.
I don't know what your load is but if you can get a 250 grain keith to go much more than 1200 fps out of a 4" barrel then you are pretty much overloaded... no real need anyway. Learned a long time ago that those loads are mostly just gun wreckers and don't do anything that 100 fps less won't do.
A couple of the Weatherby 100 grain loads get close to 4,000 fps. but really.. you need less than 100 grains to realisticly get in the 4,000 range...
lazs
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Originally posted by Steve
Curval, you seem to have checked your sense of humor at the door. Please return to the lobby and pick it up, or else once you get there, just keep on walking.
ahh...it was supposed to be funny.
Har har <- For the record.
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Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Its a long article, but worth the read. One could come to the conclusion from reading it that; any bullet without sufficent power to penetrate a vest would be insuffencient for self defense.
IE in lower power handguns you'd be better off w/ FMJ bullets than hollowpoints. Even then they would not stop a determined attacker. In higher power guns like a .357, 41, 44 etc... penetration would be suffcient to use JSP or JHP bullets.
IF bullets capable of penetrating police vests are outlawed, the general public would be less able to defend themselves with handguns.
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Originally posted by lazs2
cvh... I also have a dan wesson... it is not as heavy duty as my redhawk.
I don't know what your load is but if you can get a 250 grain keith to go much more than 1200 fps out of a 4" barrel then you are pretty much overloaded... no real need anyway. Learned a long time ago that those loads are mostly just gun wreckers and don't do anything that 100 fps less won't do.
A couple of the Weatherby 100 grain loads get close to 4,000 fps. but really.. you need less than 100 grains to realisticly get in the 4,000 range...
lazs
I would agree that a Super Redhawk is heavier than a Dan Wesson. However, after years of heavy use, my Dan Wesson is as tight as it was new. I cannot say the same for some of the Smith and Wesson 44 magnums I've owned.
I'm not using a 4" barrel, I'm using a 6" barrel. While I've not tested for pressure, I have zero over pressure signs.
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this is the only pisol i know of designed to penetrate body armor and it not for sale in the U.S. to citizens only police and military.
http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm
after clicking link go to small arms, then handguns, then five seven. link dont take you directly to it.
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CVH... I had no idea what length barrel you were using but yu apparently knew mine was a 4" or you wouldn't have told me that my loads were not hot enough.
I am just saying that 1200 fps with a 250 grain Keith is plenty hot from a 4" barrel. A factory 240 remington or win will only chrono about 1180-1220 from that barrel on my chrony. My Dan wesson has both a 4" and an 8 inch.
My rugers have chamber throats of .431 and the DW runs .429-.430 I size the Keiths to .431 and both guns like em.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
CVH... I had no idea what length barrel you were using but yu apparently knew mine was a 4" or you wouldn't have told me that my loads were not hot enough.
I am just saying that 1200 fps with a 250 grain Keith is plenty hot from a 4" barrel. A factory 240 remington or win will only chrono about 1180-1220 from that barrel on my chrony. My Dan wesson has both a 4" and an 8 inch.
My rugers have chamber throats of .431 and the DW runs .429-.430 I size the Keiths to .431 and both guns like em.
lazs
I was just clowning. I know the loads I shoot are up there. I tend to push a magnum, because I buy a magnum to wring it out.
I don't really even remember thinking about you shooting a 4" barrel. More powder would just give you more muzzle blast and flash, with no real gain. Slow burning powders like I use need barrel length, and 4" ain't enough.
I think the old factory loads that were 240-250 grain bullets at 1500 FPS were very hot, and rated in a 6.5" barrel.
Current factory loads are pretty soft. I use them as carry loads. The other handloaded stuff is strictly for bowling pin matches, silhouette matches, and hunting. The 180 will clear a table full of bowling pins real fast.
I like to handgun hunt for bear, deer, and wild boar. The 300 grain loads are for bear and boar. You've got to have penetration and bone smashing power. A boar likes to die on his feet and will be 1/2 hour late for his own funeral. The 180 loads are outstanding on deer. Bear hunting pretty much speaks for itself. You can use the 180 load on bear and boar, but you have to be real careful. And you can't be real close to the bear either. The 180 load will make spectacular exit wounds, but you can't shoot a shoulder going in, the penetration ain't there. If you break a rib on the way in and/or out, it is over real fast.
I'm going to get 8" and 10" match barrels for the Dan Wesson, with Taylor forcing cones. I've worn out the springs, and need a new set of Wolf springs. Jeez I hate the thought of changing them though.
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those old factory loads you are talking about are from a 10" non vented test barrel. They would probly chrono not much more than 1200 from my 4 inch or 1300 from your 6".
a good rule of thumb for slow powders is about 40-50 fps gain for every extra inch of barrel length. shooting my loads out of your DW you would not be able to tell much difference from yours.... at either end. I use a slower powder (AA#5) and don't see much difference than with the faster powders like 296. My DW actualy likes the AA powder better.
lazs
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http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp <~~~i bet this pistol would put some hurt on body armor,,its a 45/70 with 10inch barrel,,lol
The all-stainless steel BFR is built to close tolerances to handle the pressure of true big-bore calibers - .45/70, .480 Ruger/.475 Linebaugh, .450 Marlin, .500 S&W, .50AE, .444 Marlin