Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Soulyss on March 03, 2004, 10:43:34 AM
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Europe 1944
The USAF has begun it's systematic targeting of the german infastructure in France in preparation of the long anticipated liberation of western europe. The luftwaffe, allready pressed thin by the continuing bombing of their homeland must once again answer this new threat to their western flank.
Planeset
Allies
Fighters
· P-51B
· P-47D-25
· P-38L
Bombers/Support
· B-26
· C-47
Ground Vehicles
·Panzer IV
· M-8
· M-16
· M-3
Axis
Fighters
· BF-109G10
· BF-109G6
· BF-110G
· FW-190A8
Bombers/Support
· Ju-88
Ground Vehicles
· Tiger *
· Panzer IV
· Ostwind
· M-3
* Tiger will not be available at every field, however it will also not be regulated to the rear areas. I will have a better idea when I get home and can take a closer look at the map.
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Looks interesting. Gonna be lots of 51B's and G10's. I will use this as an opportunity to learn the P47.
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A western front with Ponys, Jugs, Lightnings, 109Gs, and FW-190As'??? Thanks You Soulyss!!!!
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I aim to please. :)
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I would give the axis the JU87s also, us allies carry more eggs in our jabos, just to balance out the load outs.
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I had not considered the Ju-87, I will do so tonight when I have a chance to look at the load outs. I had intended the BF110 to be able to balance out the air to ground capability of either side, but I must admit that I didn't check exactly how much ord it can carry. I will look into it, if the 110 is competitive in this regard the Ju-87 will be left out since it was withdrawn from the western front by this time. However if there is a glaring lack of air to ground credibility on the part of the axis I will consider going against history in this regard. :)
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Good! NOW I can start on the banner and perhaps have it submitted Thursday morn. :D
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excellent, thank ya sir. :)
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FARK! No blue planes again! :rolleyes:
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Depending on how you adjust your monitor, that green pony could look blue...
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My -51's look blue sitting on the bottom of the channel. :)
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The 190F-8 would not be a bad addition to enhance the Luftwaffes jabo ability. Although I've always thought the A8 with the heavy cannon, a bomb, and all that extra armor made a good jabo plane.
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I will use this as an opportunity to learn the P47.
Any chance of getting a different skin for the D-25 before firday?
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a G10 im happy now.
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I kinda doubt it Slash, sorry.
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ok, thanks.
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By saying I will use this as an opportunity to learn the P47, I am warning everyone ahead of time that I am going to be a BnZ'n, running from anything co-alt or co-E, ALT Monkey, cherrypicker as opposed to a regular weedwacking, furballing, cherrypicker. :D
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dweeb!
:)
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Kool set up looks like a blast:aok
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Super, thanks man.
Sakai
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I tweaked the planeset a little, and I may upset some people in doing so... but I removed the C-47 from the axis. The reasons for this is I don't want the axis to take fields in England. And the german airlift service was virtually non-exsistent in the west at this point in the war. The Axis still have the M3 to move supplies and take fields, and the France terrain I am planning on using seems to have ample remote spawns for gv's to make this possible. If gameplay during the week shows that this gives too much of an edge to the allies I will consider re-instating the C-47 for the axis and give notice in the MOTD that if any CM's see an axis field in England it is to be returned to allied hands immediately w/out prior warning.
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Damn I hope you got a "Deep" foxhole my friend! :rolleyes:
It's fixin to get "HOT" in here I predict. ;)
(Throws Soulyss my helmet and flame proof suit).
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I think you could add the C47 to the back feilds for the germans, since they did have JU52s still running trash and bellybutton all over france/germany. I also would like to know why there is no P51D? I mean its not really an issue for me since I prefer the Bravo model anyhow, but I think if the germans have the ME109G10 I think its only fair that we have a hot rod too.
The P51D out performs the Bravo above 15K. The P51Bs best fighting alt is between 15-20K. Where is the P51D seems to really come to life at 25K, where is is really fast. The fact that you are taking the C47s away from the axis, means its not going to be possable for a quick fight, unless we take a feild in France, other than that we will have 109G10s climbing out over the channle to fight. They will always have the alt advantage over the B model Mustang. They will also have the speed advantage.
The 109G10s get up to 25K quicker, and they carry more speed up to that alt, than both the B and the D, but the B is very reserved speed wise at 25K. So I say give the allies the D model too. It was there in 1944, it gives the less talented Pony drivers a chance to live after an attack by an alt-monkey in german iron. You could also give the axis the 190D9 to make up for the P51D addition. (I like shooting those down hehe) I think that would be fair.
Just a thought.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431185.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431206.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431222.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431236.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431346.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431362.gif)
As you can see the G10 is faster with its long running WEP than both the B and D model stang, above 22K, it is way faster than the B model at this alt.
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I left the D pony out intentionally, I had a couple reasons for doing so pick which ever one you perfer. :)
1. The D model P-51 didn't begin to arrive in Europe till June of 1944, this was the early production D without the dorsal fin or the ability to carry rockets, the later production D which we have in AH would have arrived even later than that. If I included the D pony I'd also add the 190D9 and this begins to push it out of the timeframe I'm trying to portray.
2. I perfer the B pony and I was trying to focus the setup on the B pony and p-47D25, both of which are frequently overshadowed by their younger siblings the D and D30 respectively. I think the B pony can handle a the 109G10 just fine on it's own. I also want the axis to have the fastest plane available since the LW tends to be outnumbered quite frequently (as I recall) in these types of setups.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
I also want the axis to have the fastest plane available since the LW tends to be outnumbered quite frequently (as I recall) in these types of setups.
Yeah but then the allies should have 262s to compensate, right?
Sakai
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lol
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Originally posted by Sakai
Sakai
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Im not sure what version if the P-51D didnt have the dorsal fin, none that I know of.
That being said, the P-51B was the premeir Mustang type untill the summer of 1944, and it should be the primary version for that time era.
As for the 109G-10, it wasn't in theater untill October 1944 (earliest), 10 months after the P-51B.
Its a workable setup, just saying, is all.
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Interesting your info on entry date of the G10 differs from the info I have (which I admit isn't much)
Most the sources I have at home are for the U.S. planes. The info I have on the 109G10 service date was from a post on the staff forum where the G10 is listed as March '44 as entry into service(service period, no mention of which theater). That's what I was going on, other than wanting to give the axis an aircraft that was a match for the -51.
I can ask on the staff forum where the info came from, and out of curiosity where did you get your info from Squire? I could use some good LW references if you know of any.
*edit* I'll check my sources at home and see if I can find out when the dorsal fin was added. Off the top of my head if I remember correctly it was the P-51D-20 that was the first model to have the rocket rails added.
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I can understand leaving out the axsis c-47, but that meens that all the allies have to do to keep the axsis from taking bases is to just take out the VH at near any base that is in danger of capture,amd what about the gv spawn pionts? How long of a drive is it going to be? And when they get there is every thing going to back up? :confused:
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Originally posted by Squire
Im not sure what version if the P-51D didnt have the dorsal fin, none that I know of.
In order to provide for better directional stability, a dorsal fin was added ahead of the rudder during the production run of the P-51D Block 10. Some of the earlier P-51Ds (plus a few P-51Bs) were retrofitted with this dorsal fin. The extra weight and drag caused by this fin was quite small, but it helped a lot in improving the directional stability, especially when the rear fuselage fuel tank was full.
Almost all Block-25 and subsequent Ds had underwing hardpoints not only for bombs and fuel tanks but also for various types of rocket launchers. These included zero-length stubs for six 5-inch rockets or as many as ten if no drop tanks were carried. Alternatively, "Bazooka" tubes could be carried in triple clusters.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html
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I dont think the P-51D is needed, I was just commenting on what you said, splitting hairs really.
I have seen the 3-44 date before on the 109G-10, its total hogwash. The 109G-14 (a standardised late model 109G-6) wasn't even in service on that date, and it preceeded the 109G-10 in service.
I will give you one source I do have on it, since you asked:
Squadron/Signal "Bf 109 in Action part 2" P.44
"The G-10 was issued to units in early Fall, 1944"
Here is an internet source ( a good one):
http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bjagd.html
You wont find any staffels with them prior to November 1944, although they are "authorised" by October. It was a late 44 fighter, just like the 109K was.
3-44 probably comes from Batz, the dates are only crystal clear if its a Spitfire he's concerned about.
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I predict heavy allied whine type noises
It would be hard to hear them over you.
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Originally posted by storch
I predict heavy allied whine type noises
So does that mean we will see you most of next week? I ask not to be a smartprettythang, I dont see how either side would object to this setup. Well, except there are no Blue planes. :)
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Originally posted by Grits
So does that mean we will see you most of next week? I ask not to be a smartprettythang, I dont see how either side would object to this setup. Well, except there are no Blue planes. :)
well, they tried.... :D
P-51D 44-14017 was temporarily borrowed by the US Navy to determine if it would be suitable for carrier-based operations. Bureau number 57987 was assigned. The P-51D was found to be unacceptable, primarily because of the poor rudder control at low airspeeds, particularly at high angles of attack.
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Excellent, thanks Squire. :)
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"The Bottisham Four"(361 FG). Note the tail fin extension (and lack of).
(http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/361g/bott4.jpg)
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...and back to congratulating Soulyss on an excellent setup. :)
Lentolaivue 32 will be there friday night. Of course, since the night time here in Finland is somewhat different from the rest of you guys, we'll be practising gang banging and milkrunning... :rofl
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Originally posted by Panzzer
Of course, since the night time here in Finland is somewhat different from the rest of you guys, we'll be practising gang banging and milkrunning... :rofl
Is that what you finns do, night time?! :p
Kippis!
Great setup though! Really looking forward to it!
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Originally posted by JensK
Is that what you finns do, night time?! :p
Kippis!
:lol
What I meant was that there usually aren't too many players on at evenings (for example 9 pm in Finland which is 8 pm CET = 2 pm EST)... Giving us opportunities to do all kinds of fun almost unhindered. :)
BTW Jens, have you found the Tuntematon sotilas on DVD yet? Or was it you that was asking for it, couple of months ago? The B&W version is at least available on dvd, with English and Swedish subtitles.
Kippis!:)
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G10 is a late 44 plane. However there is nothing between the G10 and our G6 like a G6 with MW 50 or a G6/AS which had better performance and were available in early 44.
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Well I am thinking the G10 needs to go. If we cant have the P51D because it was a mid 44 plane, then the G10 needs to go becuase it was a late 44 plane also. Keep the G6, but lose the 10.
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"G10 is a late 44 plane. However there is nothing between the G10 and our G6 like a G6 with MW 50 or a G6/AS which had better performance and were available in early 44."
So what boost does a 109G-6 use then? It does @390mph, which is as fast as it went, I dont see the problem. Its not slower than it should be.
As for a 109G-6/AS well, we can go on and on about what versions are missing for all kinds of AH a/c, dozens of them. Further to that the 109G-6/AS was not a common type, and only equipped a few staffels from June 44 on, it wasnt the equivalent of a 109G-10 either.
109G-6 was the most numerous 109 in service in the first half of 1944. It was the 109 most encountered by the P-51B. Its a fine matchup, isnt it? climb rate vs speed, cannon vs MG, low speed vs high speed handling, its one of the classic matchups of WW2.
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Hey storch do me a favor.... would you please go play in traffic.
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A G6 with MW50 is a G14 plain and simple. HT didn’t model a G14 or a G6/AS (if you fly FB you know that the G6/AS there is really a G14/AS because it has MW 50; G6 + MW50 = G14). The AH G10 easily outperforms all allied aircraft. Its performance is that of a ‘45 109 running at 1.98 ata with C3 fuel.
There is a real question as to whether the AH G6 is a bit to slow at alt (12 -15mph max) but that doesn't change much. All late war allied planes will still be faster.
The allied Farm Bois will whine when you kill them in a G10 and they will whine when you kill them in a G6. The only problem is all the running they do; in a g6 it just takes longer to catch them. It is funny though that these whiners are the same type of tards that argue for the F4U-4 vs. the a6m5 / Niki / Ki-61.
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3-44 probably comes from Batz, the dates are only crystal clear if its a Spitfire he's concerned about.
The 3.44 wasn't from me. I may have re-posted that number but IIRC it was a cut-n-paste re-post from a thread on Service Introduction Dates started by Funked over 2 years ago.
I resurrected the thread for review.
Here's the thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=111552&sortby=lastpost
The data was complied from the original thread by Karnak
original thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26235&highlight=Service+Date
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Fair enough.
Im all for the ac being in setups when they are supposed to be, and I will repeat a setup I would like to see:
Channel Front 1941
Spit V
Hurricane II
109F-4
190A-5
We should be doing them all, and let the "b" word be damned. Some setups its the 109G-6 vs P-47s, sometimes 109G-10s vs P-51Ds, sometimes 109F-4s vs P-40Es. Let the chips fall where they may and everybody takes their lumps, ETO, PTO, axis and allied.
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Originally posted by storch
As I predicted, numerous allied whines are being recorded
You're working way too hard to justify yourself. :D
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Unfolding just like I figuerd.
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I say give the Axis Ju52's at rear bases, but otherwise leave the setup alone. The G10 is not the Uber plane it would seem on paper, heck even the P-47 out turns the G10. I like the set as is.
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No Storch, they were left out because German airlift at this time was nonexistant in combat zones, not everything done that you dont like is "just to spoil JG3's party". I dont care either way, Axis could have them anywhere they wanted and it wouldnt bother me but Soulyss had good historical reason to do what he did.
How about they give you the Ju52 in exchange for the G10? No? I didnt think so.
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Originally posted by storch
Would you reconsider your decision to deny the axis the JU52?
Storch (in a "Homer Simpson voice): Muuuuust .... take .... England.
:D
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This is a classic matchup. I find I'm enjoying this week's CT setup as much as last week's. The CT staff has definitely found near-ideal gameplay setups that strike a fine balance between historical realism and good old fun.
The 109G/190A vs. P-51/P-47/P-38 matchup is fun, varied, and interesting. I wouldn't change a thing about it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Squire
Fair enough.
Im all for the ac being in setups when they are supposed to be, and I will repeat a setup I would like to see:
Channel Front 1941
Spit V
Hurricane II
109F-4
190A-5
We should be doing them all, and let the "b" word be damned. Some setups its the 109G-6 vs P-47s, sometimes 109G-10s vs P-51Ds, sometimes 109F-4s vs P-40Es. Let the chips fall where they may and everybody takes their lumps, ETO, PTO, axis and allied.
This is wisdom brothers.
Sakai