Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: weaselsan on March 04, 2004, 06:14:28 PM
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Reagan Approved Plan to Sabotage Soviets
Book Recounts Cold War Program That Made Technology Go Haywire
By David E. Hoffman
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, February 27, 2004; Page A01
In January 1982, President Ronald Reagan approved a CIA plan to sabotage the economy of the
Soviet Union through covert transfers of technology that contained hidden malfunctions,
including software that later triggered a huge explosion in a Siberian natural gas pipeline,
according to a new memoir by a Reagan White House official.
Thomas C. Reed, a former Air Force secretary who was serving in the National Security Council
at the time, describes the episode in "At the Abyss: An Insider's History of the Cold War," to
be published next month by Ballantine Books. Reed writes that the pipeline explosion was just
one example of "cold-eyed economic warfare" against the Soviet Union that the CIA carried out
under Director William J. Casey during the final years of the Cold War.
At the time, the United States was attempting to block Western Europe from importing Soviet
natural gas. There were also signs that the Soviets were trying to steal a wide variety of
Western technology. Then, a KGB insider revealed the specific shopping list and the CIA slipped
the flawed software to the Soviets in a way they would not detect it.
"In order to disrupt the Soviet gas supply, its hard currency earnings from the West, and the
internal Russian economy, the pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines, and valves
was programmed to go haywire, after a decent interval, to reset pump speeds and valve settings
to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to pipeline joints and welds," Reed writes.
"The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space," he
recalls, adding that U.S. satellites picked up the explosion. Reed said in an interview that
the blast occurred in the summer of 1982.
"While there were no physical casualties from the pipeline explosion, there was significant
damage to the Soviet economy," he writes. "Its ultimate bankruptcy, not a bloody battle or
nuclear exchange, is what brought the Cold War to an end. In time the Soviets came to
understand that they had been stealing bogus technology, but now what were they to do? By
implication, every cell of the Soviet leviathan might be infected. They had no way of knowing
which equipment was sound, which was bogus. All was suspect, which was the intended endgame for
the entire operation."
Reed said he obtained CIA approval to publish details about the operation. The CIA learned of
the full extent of the KGB's pursuit of Western technology in an intelligence operation known
as the Farewell Dossier. Portions of the operation have been disclosed earlier, including in a
1996 paper in Studies in Intelligence, a CIA journal. The paper was written by Gus W. Weiss, an
expert on technology and intelligence who was instrumental in devising the plan to send the
flawed materials and served with Reed on the National Security Council. Weiss died Nov. 25 at
72.
According to the Weiss article and Reed's book, the Soviet authorities in 1970 set up a new KGB
section, known as Directorate T, to plumb Western research and development for badly needed
technology. Directorate T's operating arm to steal the technology was known as Line X. Its
spies were often sprinkled throughout Soviet delegations to the United States; on one visit to
a Boeing plant, "a Soviet guest applied adhesive to his shoes to obtain metal samples," Weiss
recalled in his article.
Then, at a July 1981 economic summit in Ottawa, President Francois Mitterrand of France told
Reagan that French intelligence had obtained the services of an agent they dubbed "Farewell,"
Col. Vladimir Vetrov, a 53-year-old engineer who was assigned to evaluate the intelligence
collected by Directorate T.
Vetrov, who Weiss recalled had provided his services for ideological reasons, photographed and
supplied 4,000 documents on the program. The documents revealed the names of more than 200 Line
X officers around the world and showed how the Soviets were carrying out a broad-based effort
to steal Western technology.
"Reagan expressed great interest in Mitterrand's sensitive revelations and was grateful for his
offer to make the material available to the U.S. administration," Reed writes. The Farewell
Dossier arrived at the CIA in August 1981. "It immediately caused a storm," Reed says in the
book. "The files were incredibly explicit. They set forth the extent of Soviet penetration into
U.S. and other Western laboratories, factories and government agencies."
"Reading the material caused my worst nightmares to come true," Weiss recalled. The documents
showed the Soviets had stolen valuable data on radar, computers, machine tools and
semiconductors, he wrote. "Our science was supporting their national defense."
The Farewell Dossier included a shopping list of future Soviet priorities. In January 1982,
Weiss said he proposed to Casey a program to slip the Soviets technology that would work for a
while, then fail. Reed said the CIA "would add 'extra ingredients' to the software and hardware
on the KGB's shopping list."
"Reagan received the plan enthusiastically," Reed writes. "Casey was given a go." According to
Weiss, "American industry helped in the preparation of items to be 'marketed' to Line X." Some
details about the flawed technology were reported in Aviation Week and Space Technology in 1986
and in a 1995 book by Peter Schweizer, "Victory: The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy
that Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union."
The sabotage of the gas pipeline has not been previously disclosed, and at the time was a
closely guarded secret. When the pipeline exploded, Reed writes, the first reports caused
concern in the U.S. military and at the White House. "NORAD feared a missile liftoff from a
place where no rockets were known to be based," he said, referring to North American Air
Defense Command. "Or perhaps it was the detonation of a small nuclear device." However,
satellites did not pick up any telltale signs of a nuclear explosion.
"Before these conflicting indicators could turn into an international crisis," he added, "Gus
Weiss came down the hall to tell his fellow NSC staffers not to worry."
The role that Reagan and the United States played in the collapse of the Soviet Union is still
a matter of intense debate. Some argue that U.S. policy was the key factor -- Reagan's military
buildup; the Strategic Defense Initiative, Reagan's proposed missile defense system;
confronting the Soviets in regional conflicts; and rapid advances in U.S. high technology. But
others say that internal Soviet factors were more important, including economic decline and
President Mikhail Gorbachev's revolutionary policies of glasnost and perestroika.
Reed, who served in the National Security Council from January 1982 to June 1983, said the
United States and its NATO allies later "rolled up the entire Line X collection network, both
in the U.S. and overseas." Weiss said "the heart of Soviet technology collection crumbled and
would not recover."
However, Vetrov's espionage was discovered by the KGB, and he was executed in 1983.
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Maybe there should be a USS Vetrov.
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Originally posted by ra
Maybe there should be a USS Vetrov.
good idea..... A Destroyer.
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Sounds like a great plan to me. Glad it worked.
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Repost but still good to punt it, not many lefties responded to the last thread about this :lol
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=107827&referrerid=3203
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them no good republicans, always playing dirty tricks, i demand a recount.
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Originally posted by weaselsan
At the time, the United States was attempting to block Western Europe from importing Soviet
natural gas. There were also signs that the Soviets were trying to steal a wide variety of
Western technology. Then, a KGB insider revealed the specific shopping list and the CIA slipped
the flawed software to the Soviets in a way they would not detect it.
Great allies. Yeah, all Europeans must kneel and kiss their feet for saving them from Evil Communists, including Evil Communist natural gas and other Evil Communist supplies.
Freezing in Winter that Europeans must have been warmed by a feeling of Freedom and Democracy brought to them by their great Ally from overseas, who made it possible.
And if they didn't feel enough pleasure - they could have to be punished for trading with Evil Communist Enemy, instead of freezing under Freedom and Democracy. :aok
The more truth is revealed - the more I feel that USSR was a right side in a cold war. Another shock for ex-USSR people in last 5-10 years was that most of what Soviet propaganda, that we all laughed at in the 70s-80s, was true... :(
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I'm surprised they named a carrier after him.
An ammunition supply ship might have been more apt.
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Another shock for ex-USSR people in last 5-10 years was that most of what Soviet propaganda, that we all laughed at in the 70s-80s, was true...
Specifically...?
Or are you still under the illusion that the Berlin wall was there to keep the vulnerable Easterners from the decadent Western pig-dogs, and was welcomed by most East Berliners?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Great allies. Yeah, all Europeans must kneel and kiss their feet for saving them from Evil Communists, including Evil Communist natural gas and other Evil Communist supplies.
Freezing in Winter that Europeans must have been warmed by a feeling of Freedom and Democracy brought to them by their great Ally from overseas, who made it possible.
And if they didn't feel enough pleasure - they could have to be punished for trading with Evil Communist Enemy, instead of freezing under Freedom and Democracy. :aok
The more truth is revealed - the more I feel that USSR was a right side in a cold war. Another shock for ex-USSR people in last 5-10 years was that most of what Soviet propaganda, that we all laughed at in the 70s-80s, was true... :(
(http://radio.weblogs.com/0001015/images/2002/09/21/lenin.jpg)
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there are a few on this board that wouldve welcomed a USS Lenin
to bad their side went :o
:p
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Originally posted by Dowding [/B]
Specifically...?[/QUOTE]
NATO was and still remains an enemy, an agressive, imperialistic alliance, made to support American interests by force.
Originally posted by Dowding
Or are you still under the illusion that the Berlin wall was there to keep the vulnerable Easterners from the decadent Western pig-dogs, and was welcomed by most East Berliners?
Dowding, maybe we'd better talk about the colonies of British Empire? How you slaughtered thousands of Hindus etc? Or maybe about what Americans did to the Indians? Looks like they'll prefer Evil Communists to Brave Fighters for Freedom and Democracy.
About Berlin wall etc: why do you always mention it? Isn't it clear for you that your side was an agressor, and still remains? We withdrew from Europe, and now we have our major cities within NATO tactical aviation ranges. Back in cold war times it was a reason good enough for your lunatics in NATO to start a war, so I'm glad the times have changed.
You see, your American "friends" decided to freeze whole countries just to make their population blame Evil Communists. Every new information revealed about cold war times shows West as a gang of crooks, gangsters and international terrorists. Don't you find it strange?
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NATO was and still remains an enemy, an agressive, imperialistic alliance, made to support American interests by force.
Then why didn't we invade Switzerland or Sweden and add them to the 'Empire'?
Why was there not a single uprising in any NATO associated country since its inception to this date? It would be much easier to do than in the Soviet Union, given our freedom of movement and speech laws. We have never needed passports to move from one province to another.
Dowding, maybe we'd better talk about the colonies of British Empire? How you slaughtered thousands of Hindus etc? Or maybe about what Americans did to the Indians?
The key difference here is that British colonial excesses and American expansionism have been widely acknowledged as regrettable mistakes and are definitely not the norm for either the British Empire or the US.
Compare and contrast the Soviet system, which slaughtered thousands, millions of people from 1917 - a slaughter you continue to deny ever happened, in the case of Katyn or actually rationalise away, in the case of Stalin's modernizations.
About Berlin wall etc: why do you always mention it?
I mention it, because it is the perfect stage for argument. You do realise that people coming through the Berlin wall from the East were never searched by the Western authorities, but those going into the East were scrutinized to an amazing level by the East German border police. Counter espionage for the West was infinitely more difficult for the Western intelligence agencies.
What are your feelings about the Stazi? Over zealous policemen who wouldn't hurt a fly?
Isn't it clear for you that your side was an agressor, and still remains?
I'm sorry for the sarcasm but...
The Berlin airlift - wow, look at the agression there! Those cargo planes full of food and medicine - scary!
I'm fascinated, not to say a little unnerved, by the way a modern Russian can believe that the East Europeans actually wanted protection from NATO, and would want the Russian Soviets to provide it. What is your take on the Hungarian uprisings?
We withdrew from Europe...
You what? You were bankrupted out of Europe, so don't try and make it out it was considered strategic move that would benefit the Russian state - you would still be there if this was not the case.
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Boroda you are such a demented freak.... Gawd you're funny...
The berlin wall was there to protect the east germans from nato agression....
:D :rofl
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Originally posted by Dowding
The key difference here is that British colonial excesses and American expansionism have been widely acknowledged as regrettable mistakes and are definitely not the norm for either the British Empire or the US.
Same thing here. I am happy we don't have to feed Central Asian and Baltic republics, but what modern "party line" lacks is an understanding that our presence in Eastern Europe was vital for the very existance of our country and nation (I mean not only Russian).
Originally posted by Dowding
Compare and contrast the Soviet system, which slaughtered thousands, millions of people from 1917 - a slaughter you continue to deny ever happened, in the case of Katyn or actually rationalise away, in the case of Stalin's modernizations.
Dowding, how many more times I'll have to say that my family suffered enough in pre-War times?
But I will also repeat that the whole propaganda concept of "purges" and "repressions" was invented and spread by nazis in late-30s. Your propaganda again failed to invent anything new. The numbers of "repressed" people most of you Westerners believe are fictional. Again, in 1999 we had 2 times more people in prisons and camps then in 1940, the worst year of "repressions". You just repeat what you were told by your lame school "history" books full of cold-war propaganda, like parrots, without even attempting to think of it.
Originally posted by Dowding
I mention it, because it is the perfect stage for argument. You do realise that people coming through the Berlin wall from the East were never searched by the Western authorities, but those going into the East were scrutinized to an amazing level by the East German border police. Counter espionage for the West was infinitely more difficult for the Western intelligence agencies.
That had reasons behind it, and it's a pity that you can't understand it.
For me the perfect stage for argument is the genocide performed by colonial empires, when whole nations or even races ceased to exist. Another perfect stage is that US and NATO planned a nuclear agression against my country since 1946, including wiping all major Soviet cities, and bloody gangsters admit it! And it was done to "liberate people enslaved by Evil Communist Regime"! Liberate my prettythang! @#$^&$#^#&$#!!!
Originally posted by Dowding
The Berlin airlift - wow, look at the agression there! Those cargo planes full of food and medicine - scary!
You have been told here about the reasons of West Berlin isolation. Are you literate? Or is it me and Miko (with whom I disagree on many points) who use too many difficult words and concepts?
Believe me, if such a provocation as a separation of Western occupational zones was made by Red side - your "brave fighters" should have shot that cargo planes with no doubt.
I strongly advise you to stop bringing up rotten propaganda crap again and again.
Originally posted by Dowding
Interesting. I'm fascinated, not to say a little unnerved, by the way a modern Russian can believe that the East Europeans actually wanted protection from NATO, and would want the Russian Soviets to provide it. What is your take on the Hungarian uprisings?
I don't care about Eastern Europeans. We were protecting ourselves. We still have all possible reasons to be afraid of your "civilized" agressors.
Hungarian uprising? What if Irish people started hanging people who speak English and have relations with UK on lamp posts, declaring that they are now allies of the USSR - what will your government do? Invade Ireland immediately, and try to restore status quo? Or just send them flowers and welcome Soviet troops?
Originally posted by Dowding
You what? You were bankrupted out of Europe, so don't try and make it out it was considered strategic move that would benefit Russia - you would still be there if this was not the case.
Partially correct. We simply couldn't keep the arms race. But now it only will take time till you "fighters for peace" start blackmailing us by targeting Leningrad (SPb, I just can't pronounce SaNKTPeterburg, and I was born in Leningrad).
I only try to show you that your presence in Western Europe wasn't justified by "Soviet threat". After the threat disappeared - you didn't withdraw, but kept on moving towards our borders, with obvious agressive intentions. So it goes. :(
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda you are such a demented freak.... Gawd you're funny...
The berlin wall was there to protect the east germans from nato agression....
:D :rofl
Thank you Hrun. I always knew you love me :)
Next time please check if I actually said something before you put words into my mouth.
I like your Lenin pictures, but you again miss my point. I believe that Lenin was one of the most evil figures in human history. I'll appreciate you posting that pic again and again, I understand you just can't remember anything you were not told on TV...
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Western agression toward the Soviet union immediately after WW2.
Hmmm.
A nuclear monopoly from June 21, 1945 to August 29, 1949 and that monopoly was not used.
Does anyone think that an acknowleged agressor like Hitler would not have used better than four years of unquestioned military superiority?
Why did the British / American alliance not use it against Stalin?
If we were agressors, we were pretty piss poor at it.
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Also the USSR was stealing US technology and using it to prepare for war against the US. So what is wrong in supplying faulty software?
Kind of like putting Cubic Zirconium out in your display cases instead of diamonds and the thiefs crying foul when they steal them.
Russia is much better off now than it ever was. The future for Russia is bright as long as they concentrate of making their citizens lives better. Don't dwell on the past. The USSR lost the cold war in the best possible way.
Cooler head prevailed.
Good thing you were not calling the shots Boroda.
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As a technologist with first-hand experience in programming controllers for the Siberian pipelines and also in automated safety systems in the 80s, the story about the sabotaged software actually causing a huge explosion sounds totally bogus.
It just could not technically have happened as described. It was totally impossible to use a piece of stolen software to run the pumping station - unless the whole station was also stolen as one piece.
As all soviet technology, the stations were assembled of disparate components of various origins and the control systems had to be crated individuallly. They were not even really computerised and there was always mechanical safety in addition to electronic.
How would a stolen piece of american software know how to sabotage a 30-year old german pump, japanese sensor set, russian compressor and a mechanical-relays control system adopted from the railroad-safety design?
Software just didn't run things in the Soviet Union in early 80s to the same extent it was running things in US then, let alone now.
Sure, some bits and pieces malfunctioned all the time. Some could have done so due to intentionally-buggy software. There were huge spills and explosions all the time on Russian pipelines.
The legend is entertaining but totally bogus.
Political aspects of that decision also do not compute.
Why would american government support USSR with trade in food and strategic materials at the same time it was supposedely trying to hurt them.
The oil prices were major concern to US and middle east was a problem with iranian crisis, etc. Why would US try to knock out oil supply to Europe? Europeans would have to buy Middle-eastern oil, driving prices up and giving money to iranians, etc.
miko
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Western agression toward the Soviet union immediately after WW2.
Hmmm.
A nuclear monopoly from June 21, 1945 to August 29, 1949 and that monopoly was not used.
Does anyone think that an acknowleged agressor like Hitler would not have used better than four years of unquestioned military superiority?
Why did the British / American alliance not use it against Stalin?
If we were agressors, we were pretty piss poor at it.
You simply didn't have enough bombs, and from Western occupation zones your bombers couldn't reach industrial regions East of Volga.
But the plans existed and your governments admit it.
And in surface warfare "allies" didn's have a single chance. Our tanks could drive through Europe and sink you in Atlantic in a matter of weeks. Remember what two German tank divisions have tone to you in Ardennes? You had to beg for Stalin's assistance, and saving your miserable forces costed another half-million Soviet lives in Balaton operation...
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You just repeat what you were told by your lame school "history" books full of cold-war propaganda, like parrots, without even attempting to think of it.
I've read books on Stalin, Beria and the Russian Revolution. I was not taught anything about Russia at school. Of course, these will be unacceptable to you, as are the primary sources they use. You much prefer to use back issues of Pravda (I'm still incredulous that you use it as a source for your information).
That had reasons behind it, and it's a pity that you can't understand it.
To understand something, I have to be presented with it. For whatever reason, you are unwilling/unable to so.
Again, in 1999 we had 2 times more people in prisons and camps then in 1940, the worst year of "repressions".
The people in camps in 1940 probably had a lot shorter life expectancy.
For me the perfect stage for argument is the genocide performed by colonial empires, when whole nations or even races ceased to exist.
Hardly. Isolated incidents in a long ago age compared to a catalogue of repression up to 1991. I'm assuming you have apples and oranges in Russia?
You have been told here about the reasons of West Berlin isolation.
Nope.
Hungarian uprising? What if Irish people started hanging people who speak English and have relations with UK on lamp posts, declaring that they are now allies of the USSR - what will your government do? Invade Ireland immediately, and try to restore status quo? Or just send them flowers and welcome Soviet troops?
You must mean Northern Ireland - we gave Ireland to the Irish, if you remember. Something the Russians would never have considered doing.
BTW, they did more than hang people with English accents. They blew them up, shot them, beat them up and firebombed them. And plenty had Irish accents too. Yet in the 30 years of 'Troubles' did we:
a) send tanks
b) murder opposition groups
c) none of the above
Now let's look at Hungary. A separate country - what proportion were Russian?
Northern Ireland. 60/40 mix in favour of people who want to remain part of the UK.
Can you argue that 40% of Hungarians wanted to remain part of USSR?
Sorry to ask this again, but what is the Russian for oranges and/or apples?
After the threat disappeared - you didn't withdraw, but kept on moving towards our borders, with obvious agressive intentions. So it goes.
That's right, because of course the RAF now flies from bases in Poland and the British Army hasn't withdrawn a huge proportion of its cold war garrison from Germany and US hasn't scaled back its presence in Western Europe.
Oh my.
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Miko, from what I understood - it was a system bought in one piece, bought, not stolen, at least it's how our media showed it.
As for stolen software - do you think that OS/360 was ever licensed in USSR? Or System/360 and other IBM mainframe hardware, or DEC PDP/VAX etc?
I always wanted to know why our "beloved" government strangled our own computer industry in late-60s in favour of Western designs...
I know many organisations here in Moscow who used different Western systems from Data General Eclipse to Convex supers (I have 3 of them here in ChemPhysics), but all military equipment, as well as systems running in military research and other critical strategic points had to be Soviet-made. I was surprised to hear that it was an American system with special software...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Thank you Hrun. I always knew you love me :)
Next time please check if I actually said something before you put words into my mouth.
I like your Lenin pictures, but you again miss my point. I believe that Lenin was one of the most evil figures in human history. I'll appreciate you posting that pic again and again, I understand you just can't remember anything you were not told on TV...
Yep, I like the piture too. :)
Why do yo think lenin was evil? He instituted the wonder of the USSR and your opressive socialist way of life...
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Originally posted by Boroda
And in surface warfare "allies" didn's have a single chance. Our tanks could drive through Europe and sink you in Atlantic in a matter of weeks. Remember what two German tank divisions have tone to you in Ardennes? You had to beg for Stalin's assistance, and saving your miserable forces costed another half-million Soviet lives in Balaton operation...
What tanks? i thought i rusiis withdrew all their armies from germany on may 9 1945??? :eek:
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pravda + vodka + internet = comedy gold
Keep it up guys. :aok
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Boroda: Miko, from what I understood - it was a system bought in one piece, bought, not stolen, at least it's how our media showed it.
What do you mean by "system". The whole pumping station plus the sensor suite? Why would anyone sell or buy such a complex without software?
Soviest were not buying/stealing stations, they were building them. Each one was somewhat different from others - sometimes drastically so. Then they diverged even further as various components were modified. Each one was basically a custom job.
Sabotaging one to explode intentionally was nearly impossible and would have required an intimate knowlege of the current structure - which no software stolen earlied could possibly have.
I always wanted to know why our "beloved" government strangled our own computer industry in late-60s in favour of Western designs...
It's called polylogism - the theory that the structure of human mind is not universal but depends on external conditions, so logic, science and other mind phenomena may be different for different groups of people.
Marx was the biggest, maybe first, proponent of it. Not being able to defend Marxism logically, he just declared that proletarian thinking was different from bourgeous thinking and no dialog was possible. So the bourgeous logic and sceince did not apply to prolatariat.
Hitler had a variation of that but using racial groups - aryan logic and science.
Soviets inherited that polylogism and that was a "scientific" foundation for destruction of soviet science by scoundrels - not just cybernetics by genetics, botany, agronomy and some others.
On top of the sciences in question being developed in the west - making them suspect - most of the soviet top scientists (the real ones) were jews of questionable class origin. No true russian proletarian patriot could bear that.
Which is nice in the hindsight. If they were more rational, they would have been more powerfull.
miko
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boroda... given your pasts.... I think you, and the entire world , should be grateful that they it didn't end up with either the Soviets or the british as the main superpower. People everywhere have had about their fill of your benevolent rules.
I do like that little commie Makarov pistol tho...
lazs
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Originally posted by Dowding
I've read books on Stalin, Beria and the Russian Revolution. I was not taught anything about Russia at school. Of course, these will be unacceptable to you, as are the primary sources they use. You much prefer to use back issues of Pravda (I'm still incredulous that you use it as a source for your information).
Why inacceptable? Some information, I mean the basic facts, if they are not too distorted, must be usefull. The twisted logic, based on the "fact that all Russians are evil and eat babies for breakfast", incorrect understanding of some events and intentional falsifications are what makes your picture of events in Russia so strange.
As for Pravda - it IS a good source of information, a picture of time, and, if understood correctly - a great help in understanding. You simply have to keep in mind the contemporary state of affairs and employ your ability to read between the lines. It's easy if you try :)
Originally posted by Dowding
To understand something, I have to be presented with it. For whatever reason, you are unwilling/unable to so.
Great. I envy you. That's the main difference: you have to be presented with the information and opinions. So far you are presented with centuries-old russophobic hallucinations, traditional for Western culture, especially after brave "crusaders" got their prettythanges kicked by "barbaric Slavs".
I only can advise you to try developing some opinions of your own. "They all lie" is a good starting ground.
Originally posted by Dowding
Hardly. Isolated incidents in a long ago age compared to a catalogue of repression up to 1991. I'm assuming you have apples and oranges in Russia?
Catalogue of repressions up to 1991?! Go look for some British "justice" buckups, with dozens of innocent people spending decades in jail! Yeah, it's all "isolated incidents"! It simply can't be the judicial system that appeared, developed, and ebded up as corrupt assistant to ruling class and then to certain political and economical parties!
Originally posted by Dowding
You must mean Northern Ireland - we gave Ireland to the Irish, if you remember. Something the Russians would never have considered doing.
No I meant Ireland not Ulster.
You fail to understand my example. I have chosen Ireland as a country loyal to UK to some extent.
JFYI, in case you are stuck in 1988: we gave Europe to Europeans (in fact - to NATO agressors), Ukraine - to Ukrainians, Tajikistan to Tajiks, etc, the list includes all 15 Soviet Republics. Now guess what percent of their population want good old USSR/Russian Empire to come back. Then think why it is so, and compare it to British colonies. Damn, you can even count how many Afghani people want Soviet Army to come back and restore order, and compare with how many want Brits back.
/* The last example is the only country "occupied" both by Russians and Brits. */
Try to understand your own faults before accusing others.
[comments on misunderstood example with Ireland and Hungary skipped]
Originally posted by Dowding
That's right, because of course the RAF now flies from bases in Poland and the British Army hasn't withdrawn a huge proportion of its cold war garrison from Germany and US hasn't scaled back its presence in Western Europe.
Yes, and now NATO establishes bases in Baltic states, supporting their obviously fascist regimes, who build monuments to SS hangmen and praise nazi "veterans".
About West Berlin isolation and "airlift" - try to find Miko's thread about Marshall plan. The whole "airlift" story is a good example of stupid hostile propaganda for ignorant masses, and how your "truth" is composed.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep, I like the piture too. :)
Why do yo think lenin was evil? He instituted the wonder of the USSR and your opressive socialist way of life...
Lenin organised a revolution on German money, based on "internationalistic" troops (German and Austrian POWs), to kick Russian Empire out of WWI, and then started his crazy experiments on humans...
Maybe he was the only force that could finaly keep the country together, but his hatred to everything Russian and absolute lack of human feelings resulted in a civil war, that threw us back 50 years.
In 1913 Russian Empire had the world's fastest economical growth rate. In late-20s the whole country had to be screwed up to prepare for next war.
Lenin an Nikolai II are the people to blame for most of the disasters of the XX century here and the crazy social experiment we suffered.
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... given your pasts.... I think you, and the entire world , should be grateful that they it didn't end up with either the Soviets or the british as the main superpower. People everywhere have had about their fill of your benevolent rules.
Agreed.
We had enough of it, but you guys simply can't leave us alone.
Originally posted by lazs2
I do like that little commie Makarov pistol tho...
I wish you could have that big commie Stechkin pistol :)
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You cant fool me, I played Command and Conquer. The Soviets travel through time and asassinate world leaders. Bad news.
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Miko, I am not a specialist, but it seems to me that it's possible to create dangerous situations by simply tampering the control readings like pressure, temperature, flow speed etc.
IIRC - FSB have proven the fact of intentional sabotage via software bug (закладка) there.
I like your sentences about Soviet polylogism, but cybernetics was OK again by the late-50s. All great Soviet calculating machines were designed in the 60s. BECM-6 (БЭСМ-6) was one of the world's best designs for 1966. And after having a successfull line of "supercomputers" they decided to abandon that program in favour of IBM/360 compatible clones... In the 70s the only original designs were military Elbrus series, too expencive and complicated for "commercial" use. They were ahead of time, but the mainstream machines were unreliable EC, IBM clones. I wonder why it happened.
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boroda.. we have plenty of big pistols here but the mak is inspired.
I think the world got lucky that the U.S. is in the drivers seat. All governments are evil but for a superpower.... the U.S. is about the least evil anyone could hope for. Somebody has to be the big dog... good thing this is a fairly good natured big dog on the porch.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. we have plenty of big pistols here but the mak is inspired.
It's funny :) Here most of the officers say it's usefull only to crack nuts and open beer.
My Father was a prize shooter (still holds one record of Leningrad Military District since 60s). They had an excersise of shooting from their regular weapon, and he always have chosen APS because Makarov is inaccurate and too light (but not as inaccurate as TT).
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg22-e.htm
Originally posted by lazs2
I think the world got lucky that the U.S. is in the drivers seat. All governments are evil but for a superpower.... the U.S. is about the least evil anyone could hope for. Somebody has to be the big dog... good thing this is a fairly good natured big dog on the porch.
I don't think that a superpower acting like a mean kid is a good thing for the world. You are dangerous because you are not sane. Sorry.
You'll pass a superpower exam when you'll understand that your values are not absolute, and that it's impossible to make everyone live according to your distorted understanding of life. So far you fail.
In this field you can learn from Russian Empire. It lived in peace with all kind of citizens, regardless to national/religious/cultural differences. We literally were a bridge between cultures.
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Boroda: Miko, I am not a specialist, but it seems to me that it's possible to create dangerous situations by simply tampering the control readings like pressure, temperature, flow speed etc.
Sure. You can make a component fail or malfuction - which is accounted for in design. But that is a long way from making a pipe burst. For that you need a carefully coordinated malfunction of several components from unrelated systems. Even then, why would it explode rather than just spill?
There were - and are - lakes of oil spilled in Siberia from cracks in the pipelines. A lightning strike or a dropped cigarette could have set up an explosion.
Soviet hardware was always notoriously unreliable and workers unsafe. There is no need to invent some kind of smart CIA operation to explain one of many accidents that happen there every year.
IIRC - FSB have proven the fact of intentional sabotage via software bug (закладка) there.
Not saying that they would not arrange for a faulty component to fall into soviet hands. Just that there was no single component that controlled the pumping station.
I like your sentences about Soviet polylogism, but cybernetics was OK again by the late-50s. ... They were ahead of time, but the mainstream machines were unreliable EC, IBM clones. I wonder why it happened.
Major blunders of soviet politically-directed science happened after that time - the corn, the plowing of Kasakhstan, the river projects, etc.
The restriction on jews entrance in science and strategic industries, college quotas - that was a major contribution.
The reliability was always the issue with everything soviet-made, due to un-motivated workforce and maganement. When you live not by profit from willing customer but by executing a plan on the number of shipped items, what incentive is there to improve quality?
miko
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boroda... the mak can shoot 4 inch groups easily from 25 yards and is as powerful as is possible in a blow back gun... The inspired part is that unlike a Walther (which it borrows heavily from) it is simple and robust and has only 27 parts. Soviet revolvers were allways crap except in the 1800's when they used Smith and Wesson hand ejectors. I would love to try any Soviet weapon but any semi auto pistol would have a long way to go to beat western standards.
I am pragmatic about superpowers. No superpower has shown itself to be benevolent. british and Soviets have shown that they have no compunction in removing personal fr4eedom and enslaving their conquests.
The U.S. is meddlesome but... the end result is allways more personal freedom for the majority of the populace not less. I fear my government but I fear yours a lot more.
lazs
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LOL...Baroda...the last hard line Communist around.
You amuse me. Do you think the world is still flat?
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... the mak can shoot 4 inch groups easily from 25 yards and is as powerful as is possible in a blow back gun... The inspired part is that unlike a Walther (which it borrows heavily from) it is simple and robust and has only 27 parts. Soviet revolvers were allways crap except in the 1800's when they used Smith and Wesson hand ejectors. I would love to try any Soviet weapon but any semi auto pistol would have a long way to go to beat western standards.
Hehe, you are right, APS was a great accurate thing compared to other Soviet pistols.
As for revolvers - I doubt there are any Russian S&W left, they were out of production in 1895, when Nagant was adopted. Nagant is believed to be the most precise hand gun here. Father said he had a special match Nagant with semi-anatomic grip and a piece of a machine-gun barrel instead of it's native one. He prefered it to Czech 38 Special revolvers that were probably the only type of foreign sporting handguns availible to officers in 50s-60s.
BTW, I never saw special match ammunition for Makarov/Stechkin, but there were several types made for Nagant, with non-coated lead bullets, smaller charge and shorter cartridge.
Edit: a link to Nagant revolver:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg102-e.htm
Originally posted by lazs2
I am pragmatic about superpowers. No superpower has shown itself to be benevolent. british and Soviets have shown that they have no compunction in removing personal fr4eedom and enslaving their conquests.
The U.S. is meddlesome but... the end result is allways more personal freedom for the majority of the populace not less. I fear my government but I fear yours a lot more.
It's what you are told :( Just as what we were told about Soviet assistance to Third World, Soviet soldiers building schools and planting trees in Afghanistan (exactly like what I saw in American news from Iraq), etc.
You have to understand that 90% of people don't give a damn about personal freedom. What ruined USSR was a desire to have bright-coloured toys, Japanese TVs and Coca-Cola. We have it all now, but we don't have solid-built Soviet goods, Soviet system of education, healthcare, etc. We sold it all for chewing-gum. Yes, I don't have to attend stupid Comsomol/Party meetings now, and can go abroad, but now I feed three times as much bloodsuckers as in Soviet times, and noone will let me enter US or UK, regardless to the fact that I am free to leave my country.
So - I think I'll trade back the Comsomol meetings for healthcare and Coca-Cola for "Baikal" soda (which is still better anyway, but more expensive now).
Freedom to do what? To shout "Putin is an idiot" in the street? You need to be an idiot yourself to do it. The only thing left is rock music, but now we live in the age of MTV and finding good music is a bigger problem then in Soviet times.
I'll trade this so-called "freedom" for free professional healthcare.
And believe me, 95% even of you guys here on this BBS will never notice ant difference between your life and Soviet Union, only you'll get many things better and cheaper.
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Originally posted by LePaul
LOL...Baroda...the last hard line Communist around.
You amuse me. Do you think the world is still flat?
Why do you think I am a Communist?
Do you have anything to say against my arguments? Noone here said anything about Western agressive plans against my country. Just try to look at it from a country that was invaded from the West twice in last 100 years and so many times in last 1000 years.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Major blunders of soviet politically-directed science happened after that time - the corn, the plowing of Kasakhstan, the river projects, etc.
The restriction on jews entrance in science and strategic industries, college quotas - that was a major contribution.
Corn and Tselina are mid-late 50s. I am speaking about a decision made in late-60s.
Restriction of Jews? Miko, I work in an Academic institute. Don't repeat slogans, please :) "Restriction" meant that science wasn't 100% Jewish.
Заика: Ммменння вччера в ддикторы на ррадио не вввзяли. Еееврей ппотомучччто.
Originally posted by miko2d
The reliability was always the issue with everything soviet-made, due to un-motivated workforce and maganement. When you live not by profit from willing customer but by executing a plan on the number of shipped items, what incentive is there to improve quality?
One word: Kalashnikov :)
Miko, last BESM machines were disassembled here in 1990-91, and they were much more reliable then IBM clones.
And I think you know that there are different kinds of motivation for "workforce and maganement".
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"Why would american government support USSR with trade in food and strategic materials at the same time it was supposedely trying to hurt them. "
The Patton principle. Hold them by the nose, kick them in the pants.
By supporting with food and other essentials it quelled the need for acquiring the materials by conquest.
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Boroda: Corn and Tselina are mid-late 50s. I am speaking about a decision made in late-60s.
Same people were in power, same system.
Restriction of Jews? Miko, I work in an Academic institute. Don't repeat slogans, please :) "Restriction" meant that science wasn't 100% Jewish.
Whatever. Why are you switching the subject anyway? You did not ask why soveit science was deficient - it was not. You asked why they did not have good products.
What use having jews in science if they were barred from management? In fact there probably were more jews in science because there was not much chance for them to advance in "business" - much of which was security-related, required party membership, etc.
Miko, last BESM machines were disassembled here in 1990-91, and they were much more reliable then IBM clones.
IBM clones made by soviets. No wonder. The more advanced technology became with time, the less capable was soviet manufcturing in reproducing it with the required quality.
You can make the 1950 computer with thicker glass on the bulbs, higher-gauge wires, more power consumption and relays that weight pound each and so on. But you cannot compensate for a dirty microchip production by throwing extra pound of metal for reinforcement.
And I think you know that there are different kinds of motivation for "workforce and maganement".
Which was not present anymore after Stalin's death and did not work that well befor it.
miko
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Originally posted by Boroda
Why do you think I am a Communist?
Have you seen your own avatar lately?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Have you seen your own avatar lately?
All Austrians are Communists? They have Hamer and a Sickle on their state emblem.
It's an international symbol of Labour, JFYI.
I am more and more amazed of the state of affairs in Swedish judicial system :p
A joke for Miko:
Американский лётчик вылезает из-под обломков сбитого Ф-117, и видит рядом на поле югославского крестьянина с сохой:
-Серб?
-Серп, серп, скажи спасибо что молотом не переебали!
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Originally posted by miko2d
Same people were in power, same system.
You are not quite right. Comparing Stalin's era (banning or cynernetics and genetics) with Mikita's slapstick (corn and Tselina) and Brezhnev's "stagnation" is very much wrong. Abandoning native computer designs was a typical desision of Brezhnev's times...
Originally posted by miko2d
Whatever. Why are you switching the subject anyway? You did not ask why soveit science was deficient - it was not. You asked why they did not have good products.
What use having jews in science if they were barred from management? In fact there probably were more jews in science because there was not much chance for them to advance in "business" - much of which was security-related, required party membership, etc.
No, its You who switch subjects ;)
What does nationality have to do with quality of production? In Stalin's times we had high percentage of Jews in "top management", maybe you'll say that's why Stalin's socialism was so effective? I bet it's wrong.
In times of "stagnation" Jews worked im warmer places then factory directors, like foreign trade. Miko, I studied in a school where I was almost a proletarian kid, a son of a colonel, doctor of science, and all that rich golden kids were Jewish.
Again you repeat strange myths of "Soviet state antisemitism", that did actually more harm to Jews themselves.
Originally posted by miko2d
IBM clones made by soviets. No wonder. The more advanced technology became with time, the less capable was soviet manufcturing in reproducing it with the required quality.
You can make the 1950 computer with thicker glass on the bulbs, higher-gauge wires, more power consumption and relays that weight pound each and so on. But you cannot compensate for a dirty microchip production by throwing extra pound of metal for reinforcement.
Strange, why BESM designed on the same elementary base as IBM/360 was more reliable? I'll say it was alien technology, impossible to copy in our conditions. Our industry surely was technologically several years behind West, but ahead of West in design.
Originally posted by miko2d
And I think you know that there are different kinds of motivation for "workforce and maganement".
Which was not present anymore after Stalin's death and did not work that well befor it.
You will laugh, but in Stalin's times labour was highly motivated materialy. It's Mikita who ruined it all.
Miko, your ideas are sometimes funny. :) You try to show that Soviets were not-rational according to Western standards. The problem is that they were rational according to our domestic conditions. It's hard to understand, but it's true.
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Boroda: What does nationality have to do with quality of production?
When that nationality are jews, a lot. Do you think that 50% of jews in soviet sceince or ~30% of jews in american science and business would have been replaced by others without any effect on the effectiveness? Hardly.
Besides genetic differences, soviet jews differed from russians more than american jews differ from americans.
Jews would have been running 50% of soviet economy if there was not a quote system and party preference towards "proletariat"to which jews never belonged.
In Stalin's times we had high percentage of Jews in "top management", maybe you'll say that's why Stalin's socialism was so effective? I bet it's wrong.
Socialism cannot possibly be effective - as jewish economist Ludwig von Mises conclusively proved in 1920. The jewish communist bolshevik criminals were extremely effective villains and oppressors. Which must have contributed significantly to the anti-semitism among russian people.
In times of "stagnation" Jews worked im warmer places then factory directors, like foreign trade. Miko, I studied in a school where I was almost a proletarian kid, a son of a colonel, doctor of science, and all that rich golden kids were Jewish.
Yes, we all know a few jews that occupied a high post and were paraded around. In my college grade there were 20 jews out of 150 but 8 out of 10 top students.
At the same time radio-electronic college that was related to military was closed to jews totally - they accepted a token 1 or 2 from some politically-connected family.
If you do not use half your country's brain power, how far will you advance?
How many of the russian 8 oligarchs are jews, by the way? All of them?
Again you repeat strange myths of "Soviet state antisemitism", that did actually more harm to Jews themselves.
Not only was it real. It was also largely justified after 1950s. It actually had nothing to do with nationality.
Jews were not loyal. Jews did not believe the communist propaganda. Jews were aware of truth outside the Soviet Union. All that for very simple reasons, besides natural intelligence and skepticism, that is. After the iron curtain was lifted and ill-fated settlement of israel by soviet communist jews, the jews in Soviet Union were in posession and in communication of relatives in the hostile capitalist world. They were also aware of the conditions there and of the falcity of the soviet propaganda in describing terrible living conditions of the western workers and impending proletarian revolution in the west.
Of course communists were right not trusting them and with 3/4 of soviet industry related to the military production, there were few places a jew could go.
Miko, your ideas are sometimes funny. :) You try to show that Soviets were not-rational according to Western standards.
Soviets were not rational because socialism is not rational. Forget western standards. Those are not rational either because they are almost as socialist as the soviet were - at least where politics is concerned.
The problem is that they were rational according to our domestic conditions. It's hard to understand, but it's true.
Exactly. The restriction on jews were totally rational, as I've explained.
You should read mises booklet "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" or even the whole treatise "Socialism" to see how irrational and chaotic any rational planning must necessarily be.
I did not much understand what was happening to USSR and why but now I have a chance to observe the collapse of a society into socialism all over again. Lucky me. :)
miko
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russia played a dirty game in wo2
- how about the occupation of poland
-attacks on finland
-pact with germany
-pact with japan
-the russian army raping woman and children in germany
-occupation of much more eastblock freedom loving countrys
-deportation of polish and germans before and after the war
i'm glad i never lived under a communist regiem and where freed by the allied.
Russia played an important role however but very limited to it's own country and interests the allied however had to fight all over the world
oh and the coldwar plan was just nuke the netherlands so the allies cant resuply via rotterdam.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
russia played a dirty game in wo2
We played it to the end and finished in Berlin. Our cause was right, the enemy was crushed. That's all.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
- how about the occupation of poland
We had to leave it all to nazis and have them several hundreed kilometers closer in 1941.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-attacks on finland
Same thing. We had to leave the border 32km from Leningrad so nazis could easily capture our Northern capital in the first week of the war.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-pact with germany
Oh, we should have declared war on them, so UK and France could watch Russians die for what they promised to Poland and never bothered to follow the promises.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-pact with japan
Sure, we had to attack Japan immediately on Dec. 7th 1941! Nazis 20km from Moscow was only a minor problem so we should have fought Japan to please Uncle Sam.
And remember: it was Soviet Army who defeated Japanese ground troops in 1945.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-the russian army raping woman and children in germany
...and eating them after raping.
Foxtrot uniform charlie kilo. After what Germans did to our country they could expect more problems after we came to visit them.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-occupation of much more eastblock freedom loving countrys
go back to the top of this thread and see what I wrote. We must have left them to NATO agressors so they could drop atomic bombs on our cities easier.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
-deportation of polish and germans before and after the war
Germans were "deported" because in almost German colony we had local Germans shooting Soviet troops in the back.
Deported doesn't mean "sent to death camps". Compare it to sad fate of Japanese Americans.
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
i'm glad i never lived under a communist regiem and where freed by the allied.
Russia played an important role however but very limited to it's own country and interests the allied however had to fight all over the world
oh and the coldwar plan was just nuke the netherlands so the allies cant resuply via rotterdam.
Don't join agressors - and you'll not have problems. If you could throw NATO troops away from your land - noone will spend expencive ammunition on you.
You are so glad you "never lived under a communist regiem" because you know nothing about it and are just repeating agressor's propaganda now. Turn on your brain and get real.
Who told you you'll get nuked? "Friends" from overseas? Maybe to justify presence of their agressive armed forces? Your microscopic country was (and in fact - still remains) a pawn on their "global chessboard". (Sorry, no offences please, but Moscow region alone is several times bigger then Netherlands). They already "protected" you from nazis in 1940, do you remember? If you have such friends - you don't need enemies.
Now, seriously, do you really believe Americans were "protecting" you out of charity? 99% of Americans, including their president, are unable to show Netherlands on the map. For them war is business, for us - a tragedy. Look at the uncovered cynisim of boasting that they have cut you off from Soviet natural gas!
Propaganda is a bad substitute for common sence.
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So, the whole pipeline system was run on a alpha version of Windows 95 !
how about a USS Bill Gates ? he could fund it himself...
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(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0789479923.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
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Yep the allied forces where here in holland also and ready to die for it.
And yes those plans existed
Yes the netherlands is small but our harbour is the biggest in the whole world
logistics is pretty important.
Again the nazi didn't spare the russians if they did and threated em better, many of them would walkover to germany.
communism is a biatch and facism also, not much choice for a russian soldier.
in the ardennes lotsa americans where just simply murdered by nazi's
it wasn't a reason to do same to germans
something a more civilized country would do
i won't mention kathyn it's still a mystery who did it
prob germans.
cmon boroda are u saying comunism is a good thing?
democracy ain't perfect but is way better than that.
maybe it was forbidden to get ur own mind but now u should really.
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Gentleman,
I think the issues being dicussed are now moot...whoever was right or wrong or good or evil doesn't matter..of course propaganda on both sides would portray the other as evil. Look at how it is now, Russians are no longer evil to us, now Arabs and fundamentalist muslims are. You can't hold the entire population of the USA responsible for the decisions of a few elected officials who try to claim to represent the people when actually have their own agendas. That is why the senate and house need to be required to vote based on referendums from their districts. AS a member of the US Navy I am often frustrated with having to go to "hot-spots" to enforce our policy, when I don't always belive we should be there.We all on BOTH sides have been taught our history according to what our governments have wanted us to believe, and no matter what source you use there is never a fair and impartial view of the events that occured. Everyone has their own opinion on what has happened. The thing to do now is for everyone to move forward with the cards that are now on the table. The real issue right now is where and who is buying the beer, cause we shuld put the past in the past and all have a nice drink together.:aok
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Originally posted by Boroda
Specifically...?
Dowding, maybe we'd better talk about the colonies of British Empire? How you slaughtered thousands of Hindus etc? Or maybe about what Americans did to the Indians? Looks like they'll prefer Evil Communists to Brave Fighters for Freedom and Democracy.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget what the Romans did to the Christians...And what the Homo-Sapiens did to the Neaderthals.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You simply didn't have enough bombs, and from Western occupation zones your bombers couldn't reach industrial regions East of Volga.
In Oct 1947 the USA Nuclear weapons arsenal stood 56 Atomic bombs, 35 specially equiped B-29's, and 30 crews. 56 Hiroshimas would have been a hell of a lot of damage for the USSR to absorb, even if the range didn't get to the Urals.
But the plans existed and your governments admit it.
In the archives of the US Military there are plans for everything imaginable. Someone in the government has probably made plans for attacking Mars.
And in surface warfare "allies" didn's have a single chance. Our tanks could drive through Europe and sink you in Atlantic in a matter of weeks. Remember what two German tank divisions have tone to you in Ardennes? You had to beg for Stalin's assistance, and saving your miserable forces costed another half-million Soviet lives in Balaton operation...
If the USA wanted to be the agressor were Soviet tanks NBC cabable in 1947? A Fat Man dropped on massed tanks may have slowed the armor column's advance
My point is that the western alliance had a monopoly on the nuclear advantage and did not use it as an agressor would have.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Gentleman,
I think the issues being dicussed are now moot...whoever was right or wrong or good or evil doesn't matter..of course propaganda on both sides would portray the other as evil. Look at how it is now, Russians are no longer evil to us, now Arabs and fundamentalist muslims are. You can't hold the entire population of the USA responsible for the decisions of a few elected officials who try to claim to represent the people when actually have their own agendas. That is why the senate and house need to be required to vote based on referendums from their districts. AS a member of the US Navy I am often frustrated with having to go to "hot-spots" to enforce our policy, when I don't always belive we should be there.We all on BOTH sides have been taught our history according to what our governments have wanted us to believe, and no matter what source you use there is never a fair and impartial view of the events that occured. Everyone has their own opinion on what has happened. The thing to do now is for everyone to move forward with the cards that are now on the table. The real issue right now is where and who is buying the beer, cause we shuld put the past in the past and all have a nice drink together.:aok
Thank you, I agree completely.
Here in Moscow I'll buy beer, vodka or whatever for any AH or WB pilot :) I was amazed by a hospitality of American people when I was in the US in 89, and I feel obliged. We are different, but at the same time we have many things common. At least both of our nations spread through our continents from one ocean to another :)
"KogdA panY derUtsya - u kholOpov chubY treschAt". When landlords are at war - peasants have forelocks cracking.
I only want to say that I am afraid, and, as every Russian - have all possible reasons to be afraid of threat from the West. We looked at Americans as at friends since late-80s till 1999 when NATO raped Yugoslavia, and now, when you look closer, NATO is a bigger threat then it was in late-80s :( After accepting fascist Baltic states NATO moves too close to our land to avoid attention. :(
JFYI: since early-90s our official military doctrine includes such an unbelievable thing as a "preventive nuclear strike"... With our new generation of "Kremlin dreamers" I can only say that someone is teasing a bear :(
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I was amazed by a hospitality of American people when I was in the US in 89, and I feel obliged.
We Americans since getting past the fear of the cold war have really taken to the Russians. I have met many and you are a great people. One of the best times I've had was in 1996 when my first ship USS SPRUANCE DD-963 (Lead ship in it's class of destroyers) made a port call in Ekenforde, Germany with the "Nastoychivvy" a Sovremny Class destroyer. Me and a few of my friends ran into some Russian Sailors in a bar and spent the whole night drinking together. None of us understood each others language, but we still managed to communicate and have a great time. I even traded a Zippo with the ship's name and crest on it for one of your sailor's hats (although I feel bad because by the look on the face of the Officer of the deck onboard his ship I'm sure he got in trouble for it).
only want to say that I am afraid, and, as every Russian - have all possible reasons to be afraid of threat from the West. We looked at Americans as at friends since late-80s till 1999 when NATO raped Yugoslavia, and now, when you look closer, NATO is a bigger threat then it was in late-80s After accepting fascist Baltic states NATO moves too close to our land to avoid attention.
As far as I know our only concern is that both countries still have a vast nuclear arsenal. We are no longer oppsed to your country on a military level. I feel that alot of the countries that have joined NATO in recent years have done so because they don't know who to fear, and leaving the "eastern block" was no picnic for any of them and they just wanted an insurance policy. As far as Yugoslavia goes..The US opposed a break up of that country from the start to avoid the kinda problems that came from it. However Croatia(which is a great place) and some of the other countries got away all on their own without our help. NATO stepped in when the whole Bosnia thing happened when that prettythang in Serbia was prosecuting civilians based on their ethnic and religious beliefs and then later with Kosovo. All those areas had historically been their own countries so you can't blame them for wanting to leave a state created after world war one. However that is just my view and from what I've read so once again it's just an opinion based on what I know. We look at NATO as a way to spread out commitment to more than just us. I don't think there really is a need for it anymore.
Feel free to contact me sometime..I like talking to people from waaay over there. email is David_weeks@cox.net
Thanks for agreeing with me
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caption:
hahahahahahaha
:D