Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Kegger26 on March 05, 2004, 07:52:38 AM
-
Just flew in the CT this morning.... The G10 needs to go. It compleatly out matches the P51B. It out climbs, out turns, out dives, and out runs the Bravo. The reasion for not giving the allies the D model pony was because it didnt come out untill June 44, well the G10 didnt come out untill Oct. 44. Give the allies the D model so we have some upstairs performance, or lose the G10. Out of the four fights I got into this morning, I only got one kill... not becuase I am a bad pilot, but becuase every time I met an axis player they were flying the G10, and they were at 20-25K over the channle catching me at 12K. Even when I climbed up from a back feild to 25K I had a 109G10 out run me and dive for his home feild ack. I really think he G10 is going to dominate this arena. If you really need to have it in, can you atleast perk it like 5-7 perks? For that matter can you do the same with the Delta Stang?? I mean if we have a late 44 G10, then we should be able to have a mid 44 pony right???
Keg
-
Once you get to alt shouldnt the P47 be able to handle it?
-
yeah, i'd put in the 190a5 and take out the 109g-10. this is supposedly *before* d-day, making it fairly early '44.
-
Nope.... The 47 is not near as fast as the G10 at alt.
-
I don't get it.
Even if what you claim is true, how's getting a P-51D gonna solve any of the "outruns, outturns
, outclimbs, outdives" issue? Especially when a lot of knowledgeable people flying P-51s tend to say the P-51B is the more deadlier pure fighter of the two?
Not to mention the fact that "upstairs performance" you say, is actually better with the P-51B - as the P-51B both climbs better way better than the D over 10k above, and becomes faster than the D at 15k above.
Also there's the little fact that the advantages of the P-51s at alt, in speed category, shows only over 25,000 ft - the 109 still climbs better than the both of those planes upto 30k.
Another strange thing is, you say; "I only got one kill... not becuase I am a bad pilot, but becuase every time I met an axis player they were flying the G10, and they were at 20-25K over the channle catching me at 12K.".
Then, you're saying you wouldn't be at 12k if you had a P-51D? When the P-51B is actually better than the D at alt?
...
A lot of people would willingly dispute the fact the G-10 out turns the P-51B.
In the dive category the G-10 is absolutely no match against any P-51. While the top speeds are comparable, dive acceleration is much slower in the G-10 so usually, the P-51 out runs the G-10, at least upto the point where it matters. Besides, anything over 420mph and the G-10 turns into a pig.
Frankly kegger, none of what you say makes sense.
ps) Besides, sorry to turn this into an Axis-Allied comparison, but I think people took it very well when the N1Ks and Ki61s they were flying were 60~70mph slower than the P-38L at alt.
You're asking for a P-51D because the Bf109G-10 marginally out turns the P-51B, and is 10mph faster than the P-51B at 25k??
ps2) Hmm, on second thought, I wouldn't mind. If people can't handle a G-10 with a P-51B, then it's not much different whether or not the D is added in.
ps3) This, is one of the weirdest requests I've seen in the CT.
-
the way the setup was posted, the axis have the advantage if the numbers are close - but if/when the allies outnumber them 2/3/4 to 1, it would be a nice change to be able to avoid the gangbang for once ..
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
I don't get it.
Even if what you claim is true, how's getting a P-51D gonna solve any of the "outruns, outturns
, outclimbs, outdives" issue? Especially when a lot of knowledgeable people flying P-51s tend to say the P-51B is the more deadlier pure fighter of the two?
Not to mention the fact that "upstairs performance" you say, is actually better with the P-51B - as the P-51B both climbs better way better than the D over 10k above, and becomes faster than the D at 15k above.
Also there's the little fact that the advantages of the P-51s at alt, in speed category, shows only over 25,000 ft - the 109 still climbs better than the both of those planes upto 30k.
Another strange thing is, you say; "I only got one kill... not becuase I am a bad pilot, but becuase every time I met an axis player they were flying the G10, and they were at 20-25K over the channle catching me at 12K.".
Then, you're saying you wouldn't be at 12k if you had a P-51D? When the P-51B is actually better than the D at alt?
...
A lot of people would willingly dispute the fact the G-10 out turns the P-51B.
In the dive category the G-10 is absolutely no match against any P-51. While the top speeds are comparable, dive acceleration is much slower in the G-10 so usually, the P-51 out runs the G-10, at least upto the point where it matters. Besides, anything over 420mph and the G-10 turns into a pig.
Frankly kegger, none of what you say makes sense.
Well lets correct some of what you said.
1. If we had the G6 vs the B model pony we would be some what at a close alt, thus the fight would be more evenly matched.
2. Above 22K the D model pony out performs the B model pony. Since all the G10 jocks are above 20-25K it makes sense to have the D model if your going to be up that high.
3. I fly the B model alot, but if I know the fight is going to be up high, you bet your sweet tail, I will put my bellybutton in a Delta. At 20K the D is faster.
Whats more so the G10 out performs the Delta as well. Top that all off with a nasty cannon, its a pretty mean pkg.
As for me not making sense...it seems that other ppl understood what I was saying... But here it is again, this is an early 44 set up, the G10 is an oct 44 plane.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431185.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431206.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431222.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431236.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431346.gif)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_234_1078431362.gif)
-
The G10 wont out turn a 51B, and wont out dive the 51B or the P-47. I think if you get the 47 up there to 25-30k the G10 will be in trouble.
If the G10 is removed it should be for the valid reason that it was not deployed yet at this point of the war not from a performance standpoint. But then again, we had our '44 version of the Tiffie in the '42 BoB last time so time of deployment might not matter.
-
You gonna be up this week Storch? If so keep your head on a swivel looking for high P-47's I'm gonna be a world class Alt Monkey this week. ;)
-
Originally posted by Kegger26
Just flew in the CT this morning.... The G10 needs to go.
Hot darn! Maybe this week I'll get to fly Allies regularly.
Don't change a thing...please!
- oldman
-
Hmmm,
A B pony should eat the G-10 for lunch 1 on 1. The D model isn't going to do anything the B cant except have 2 extra guns. The B is actually a bit faster and turns better at lower alts. The G-10 is a tough bird but it hasto be well flown. I'd say you were out flown...not out plane'd.
-
No worries Kegger. Fly Allied. I'm gonna fly axis and learn how to fly 109's all week. Me in a G10 (or any 109) is an accident looking for a place to happen.
Go easy on me Gents, I'm an old man :)
RTR
-
g10 out turn pony-b, laughable, really.
out dive? the g10 is one of the easiest planes to compress in the whole game.
i really hate flying g10s because i suck so bad in them. i havent got to fly this set up yet. sounds like fun though.
-
I say leave it in. There's no such thing as a perfect balance and I, personally, love a good challenge. Even if it doesn't fit the time period I'm not a fan of mid-scenario changes whether they are in my favor or not.
-
Originally posted by RTR
No worries Kegger. Fly Allied. I'm gonna fly axis and learn how to fly 109's all week. Me in a G10 (or any 109) is an accident looking for a place to happen.
Go easy on me Gents, I'm an old man :)
RTR
just go with the 30mm and gonds & HO
they'll blow up b4 you do :)
-
and why are some of you listing plane stats above 20k?
who is going to be up there for you to fight?
-
Originally posted by Eagler
just go with the 30mm and gonds & HO
they'll blow up b4 you do :)
I would put my money on a P-47 in a HO situation, you know, its got 8x of those overmodeled .50's :)
-
kegger, try putting all those lines on the chart together, instead of fleeting it with the eye and making quick assumptions - the eye can be deceptive.
1. The P-51B, starts outclimbing the P-51D above 10k, with the maximum gap between the climb rates more than 500fpm at 15k. This difference closes down momentarily at 20k, but starts to open up again above 20k, where the P-51B again, starts to gain better climb rates.
2. The P-51D, is 5~7mph faster than the P-51B, from sea level to roughly 12k.
Between 12k to 20k, the P-51B is faster by about 10~12mph max.
Between 20k to 27k, the P-51D is again, faster by about 5~7mph, with the largest gap at 22k, with about 10mph speed advantage.
Over 27k, the P-51B is faster.
..
If we had the G6 vs the B model pony we would be some what at a close alt, thus the fight would be more evenly matched.
"Evenly matched" ?
You're using the fact that the P-51B being slower 7~10mph max in a limited 7,000feet altitude span is a reason to put in the P-51D.
And yet, you take a plane which is slower than the P-51B, by a considerable margin at all altitudes, which is slower than the P-51B by 20mph even when it is at its fastest altitude, and call that an 'even match'?
How in the world can you state that a fight between the Bf109G-6 and the P-51B, is "evenly matched"? The P-51B is faster at all altitudes. The P-51B climbs simular to the G-6 from 12k on, and starts outclimbing it over 22k. The G-6 for heaven's sake, can't even break the 400mph barrier in level flight.
Sheesh, your definition of "evenly matched" is severely twisted, m8.
-
Some charts for consideration:
P-51B/P-51D speed comparison
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_232_1078541860.jpg)
P-51B/P-51D climb rate comparison
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_232_1078541827.jpg)
Bf109G-6/G-10/P-51B speed comparison
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_232_1078541938.jpg)
Bf109G-6/G-10/P-51B climb rate comparison
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_232_1078541903.jpg)
Bf109G/P-51B roll rate comparison
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_232_1078541968.jpg)
-
The planeset is just fine the way it is. Leave the G10 and do not add the 51D. The P-47 is the best Allied plane in this set IMO, but I dont think its being used much.
-
With all due fairness, the dominant Bf109G of this setup should be neither the G-10 nor the G-6. That much is undeniable.
A DB605AM equipped G-14, or a G-6/AS with a DB605AS engine, should be available to make this setup as balanced as possible, and at the same time even more historical.
Another reason to sincerely request to HTC for a G-14 as a gap filler. And also, the SpitMKIX of late '43~early '44 standards.
The good side is, Pyro showed a bit of interest in the clipped wing LF MkIX - we may not be able to see it anytime soon, but I think we can hope to see it in the game, soon.
-
I don't need no stinkin 51D , I'll take a B anyday , outturns G10
easily, just dont let em extend/reverse cause they likes to HO with dat 30 mm Dirk Diggler gun , if ya want a clipped wing Spit LFMk w/ the Merlin Eng..buy Il2 Ace Expansion pack for FB ..alot of a/c to play with now In IL2 from the CR 42 , IAR 80's to 109Z's to He162's etc etc not to mention all the 51 series ( yes the 51C with that bubble hood too "} ....btw Storch cheer up
Florida will be allowing Civil Unions soon :rofl
Bolt
-
They wont HO you much if your in a Jug. Get outa that sissy Peee-51B and get in a real MAN's plane, the Peee-47! :)
-
"DB605AM equipped G-14, or a G-6/AS with a DB605AS engine, should be available to make this setup as balanced as possible, and at the same time even more historical"
The dominant 109 type in the spring of 1944 is the 109G-6. The 109G-6/AS was a very rare type, serving from June 44 onwards.
The primary 109 opponent of the P-51B from Dec 43 to June 44 was the 109G-6, and almost all the 109 Gruppes were equipped with it (and varients of it) during that period.
The requests for the 109G-14 also intrigue me, since its just a standardised 109G-6 with a few more armament options, also Mid 44 onwards. Some of them had a Galland hood and a wooden tail section, not that I can see a huge advantage in any of that.
Dec 43-October 44 is a bit of a "low water" mark for the 109 series, it fights an increasingly technically superior allied air force before the balance is restored with the 190D-9 and the 109G-10 late in 1944. That they continued to fight effectively is a testament to the organisation they had and the skill of their aircrews.
-
The G-14 isn't a standard g6 with armament options. A G-14 is a G-6 + MW50. It would run B4 fuel + MW50. MW50 allowed higher boost below supercharger critical alt. It increased the ATA at which B4 would detonate (anti-detonation properties; just like ADI in Ami planes). It also provided some additional cooling through charge cooling. It could be run for 10 min on 5 min off and IIRC for a max of 26 min.
The G-6/AS would be similar to the G-10 at altitude. It has the same supercharger as the DB605D (from DB 603). The supercharger produced better speed at alt but at low alts (fighting altitudes in AH) a G-6/AS would be slower then our G-6. So there’s no need for a G-6/AS in AH (except for the rare late '44 bombing campaign events).
A G-6/AS with MW50 is a G-14/AS. Those of you that fly FB know that the G6/AS in FB is really a G-14/AS (it has MW50) and if you are basing your opinion on what a G-6/AS should be like from FB, remember MW50 allows for higher boost below the superchargers critical alt (better speed at lower alts).
The G-10 can fill both the roll of the G-6/AS (but it is much faster at low alts) and G-14/AS. However, it’s too good to sub for a standard (non-AS) G-14. The G-14 would fill the gap between our standard G6 and the G-10. With MW50 it can run at higher boost below critical alt.
So if you want a new 109 in AH request a 109G-14. It would give higher “wep speeds” at lower alts (fighting altitudes). MW50 does nothing (not true it still provides charge cooling) above critical alt; the AS adds nothing at lower altitudes. We have a high alt 109, the G-10.
So quit BS'ing the G-10 is not the "correct plane" for this set up, the G-6 is. However, I hate chasing around the farm bois so I suggest leaving it :p
The G-14 is mentioned in Mtt meetings minutes as the official name of the G-6/MW50 designation which was used internally by Mtt for G-6 equipped with the MW-50 system previously used on the recce G-6/R2 variant.
The G-10 is described as the evolution of the G-6 using MW-50 (same system as G-6/R2) and the DB605DM.
The G-14 used only the following engines:
DB605AM,
DB605ASM,
DB605ASB/*ASC
*available only in 1945; the ASC (C=C3 fuel) was not cleared for maximum output until March 45 at the same time as the DB605DC.
Neither the DB605A nor the DB605AS were mounted on the G-14, since the main difference from G-6 was the presence of MW-50, which required either the DB605AM or the DB605ASM engine.
The DB605AS (M) used the same supercharger as the DB605D, they were rebuilt using DB605A casing and fitted with the DB603A supercharger. They required the same kind of cowling as the DB605D equipped aircraft. Yet there are some small cowling differences between a G-10 and a G-14/AS, so you can identify one from the other.
The difference between the A and AS in the one hand and the AM and ASM in the other hand is the addition of MW-50. Of course there were other differences such as sparkplugs, timings and other settings etc.
The G-14 was (as the others) produced by Messerschmitt in Regensburg, Erla Maschinenwerke in Leipzig and WNF (Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke).
The minority was built by WNF. Many G-14s built by WNF had their MG 151/20 replaced by a MK 108, which resulted in the designation G-14/U4.
So the majority built by Messerschmitt and Erla kept their MG 151/20.
G-10s were not made from old airframes, they were produced alongside the G-14 as an evolution of the G-6 with DB605D and MW-50 while the G-14 was the evolution of G-6 with DB605AM with MW-50.
It is true some of the first airframes used for the G-10 were from G-6 as they were available, or from airframes planned for mounting the DB605AM (G-14) in case no DB605AM were available. Hence the twin data plate found on some G-10.
-
Batz, doesn't the 109G-6 "standard" use MW50? Im still foggy about the "real" difference then between a DB605A 109G-6 and a DB605A 109G-14. I have docs on both ac I cant find anything that suggest a 109G-14 does anything a 109G-6 cant. The 109G-14 has a wooden tail, an "Erla Haub" hood, some different comms equipment and a few other relatively minor differences, as well as some "standardised" armament options. Its a refinement of a late model 109G-6. Its kinda like comparing a Spit LF IXE to a Spit LF XVIE to me. Not enough diff anybody would care to notice.
Im not talking about the "AS" series, just the regular ones.
-
If you are asking about power settings I will post them later tonight when I get home. IIRC MW50 = special emergency power. It should be on your G-14 chart.
The difference between the A and AM, besides the addition of MW-50, are things such as sparkplugs, timings and other settings to accomadate the higher boost at MW50 etc.
-
Our G6 does not have MW50.
-
109G-6/U3 had it, but I am not aware what exact version HTC models. It has some sort of "wep" or "boost" in AH.
-
No the AH 109G-6 doesn't have MW50, I believe I read a post by Butch that said the U3 was either rare or the information that it had MW50 is wrong. MW50 Kits weren't readily available until '44. The G14 (as I quoted above) was the name given to what was previously known as the G6/R2 (recce variant with MW50).
MW50 provided about 300 more hp then the standard G-6 with the DB605A. The G14 entered production about 6 months earlier then the G10.
Wep on the G6 should be "take off emergency power". MW50 would be "special emergency power".
The way HT models wep on the 109G-6 is the same way they do over at WBs. I suspect "wep" on the AH G-6 equates to "climb & combat power" (30 min limit) instead of "take off emergency power" (5 min limit). This why I tend to believe the G-6 is a bit slow. @ wep the ah G-6 hits 635kmh where I think that would be non wep speed (climb & combat power). I think the G-6 should hit 650kmh @ take off emergency power. But its not that big of a deal, I could be completely wrong.
The 10 min standard "wep" of the 109s is something you will have to ask HT about.
To be completely honest there isn't a huge difference in the G-14 and the AH G-6. MW50 would still be 10 min "wep" but provide a bit more speed/climb accel etc...
I got to look for the power settings I don't know where I put them.
-
Ok, interesting, so the 109G-14 would indeed be a slight improvement. Well, after AH2 is out im sure it might get in there at some point.
The whole "boost" thing in sims makes it somewhat confusing. Ie. what are they actually talking about.
-
There were a few threads in the AH2 forum that talked about changing what "wep is". I suggested a 100% (military power) 110% (would be what wep is now) and the current wep button would be for added "boost (mw50, C3 injection, ADI etc). But who knows.
Thare are many many other planes needed in AH over the G-14. However, if there is another 109 to be added or to ask for its the G-14.
-
BF109G6/AS , BF109G10/G14 and K4 were equipped with
the MW50 inj. system . it was automatic of course allowing
the pilot to go past the 100 % throttle mark ..HOWEVER..
it may only be done when the engine is idle or running on
lower throttle to prevent engine damage ..it also had to be
monitored when it ran out of water-methanol mix as it couldn't
operate properly without ext pressure & could also cause damage. AH lets ya get away with running it to the firewall , but IL2 which has better FM..IMO > won't ..after locking up my G14 in several fights , I decided to read the instructions ..duh and there it was..190D9 was engaged the same way .
-
1st thing htc needs to add is an "engine overheat"
that would slow down the runners and make it better for all
-
Overheat in FB isn’t "real" either. It’s a tool used to force folks to fly within "limits". In real life power setting limits were more about maintaining serviceable aircraft rather then worrying that if you flew with MW50 at 13 min instead of 10 your eng would heat and explode. For the most part the harder you ran an eng meant reduced engine life and increased work load on maintenance crews.
Pyro post this in the AH2:TOD forum, and he’s right.
So what is the real purpose of engine management in real life? It primarily breaks down to two reasons. Fuel efficiency and maintenance considerations. Fuel efficiency should be obvious. You will get a lot more range at a more efficient setting. Maintenance considerations are there to extend engine life and time between overhauls. People see a time limit on military power for a plane and assume that that means the engine will overheat or blow up if you run it longer than that and that’s not the case. Is modeling it that way really more accurate? We don’t model the maintenance considerations, you get a fresh plane each time out. Hopefully, we’ll at least be able to take some stabs in that direction with ToD, but that’s not exactly something you can replicate to great effect.
In AH arena play you fly at full power because you aren’t really concerned with fuel consumption and maintenance / eng rebuild time is irrelevant.
-
Originally posted by Bolt45
BF109G6/AS , BF109G10/G14 and K4 were equipped with
the MW50 inj. system . it was automatic of course allowing
the pilot to go past the 100 % throttle mark ..HOWEVER..
it may only be done when the engine is idle or running on
lower throttle to prevent engine damage ..it also had to be
monitored when it ran out of water-methanol mix as it couldn't
operate properly without ext pressure & could also cause damage. AH lets ya get away with running it to the firewall , but IL2 which has better FM..IMO > won't ..after locking up my G14 in several fights , I decided to read the instructions ..duh and there it was..190D9 was engaged the same way .
is there a downloadable manual anywhere - am just getting into FB and I need to check some stuff on radiators and mixtures and turbo's and stuff.
-
In real life 109s were left in full auto, in FB its perfectly reasonable (and "real") to fly 109s in full auto.
In fact there are several interviews of 109 pilots where they were asked directly about manual vrs auto and the consensus was that full auto was correct. There’s no mixture control need for the 109s because they are fuel injected. The only time you need to manually use radiators is to keep speed (closed) or if you are running hot. 90% of the time leaving them in auto is fine.
A common feature of the German fighter engine controls (post ‘42) was the single lever operation (engine and the propeller function to one control lever). The DB, Jumo and BMW systems were different in detail but they controlled the engine and propeller etc…. The pilot basically moved the "Throttle" to adjust the power at all speeds and altitudes. These “automatic” systems adjusted the mixture, ignition timing, supercharger speed, manifold pressure, engine speed (via prop pitch) and even MW50/GM1. Each version of these engines had their own particular set-up and variations.
It’s a myth that in FB you need to be at idle to "activate MW50" (and C3 injection on the 190s; "erhöhte Notleistung"). MW50 injection was armed by flipping a switch on the dashboard. Injection was only activated, though, when the throttle was advanced to the stop.
That means MW50 was only injected once war emergency power was reached, at full boost, at full rpm. The resulting power setting was called "special" war emergency power to discern it from emergency power without additional injection. Also MW50 is only of real benefit (besides charge cooling) below supercharger critical alt. So you would just turn it off. One thing to remember those is MW50 will run out so if arent paying attention in FB you could destroy your eng by running at max power to long.
So in FB you can "activate" MW50 at any point under 100% throttle with no ill effects.
Its not as difficult as it sounds, aircraft were designed for simple operation. The Fighter pilots needed their attention elsewhere, like fighting :).
Just learn how to navigate and you will be fine. In DF servers you radio compass will always point to you "home base", in coops etc its points to the "next waypoint". Just follow where it points you and you will have np.
-
I picked these numbers up from another forum
Hi Everyone,
I've got a data chart showing the G14 having the same speed as the G6/R2, both with DB605AM engines:
568km/h @ SL
665km'h @ 5000m
for comparision the ordinary G6 would be:
530km'h @ SL
640km/h @ 6600m
BBury I'm sure your chart is for the ASM engine. Another document has it as:
560 km/h @ SL
680 km/h @ 7500m
Cheers
Brian
-
Those are good speed numbers, lets add both planes. :)
G6 with MW50 or G14
352 @ SL
413 @ 16,000
G6/AS
422 @ 24,000
This performance was available by late 43 and early 44. :)
-
Hmm, I thought the 109G-14 and 109G-6/AS were both later than June 44. I cant find any info on an earlier date.
-
June '44 sounds about right. I have read several references for the G-14 entering service "about 6 months before the G-10". But certainly neither were available in '43.
I am sure Butch knows.