Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: kj714 on March 05, 2004, 04:14:45 PM
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Here's the situation:
You see a high 51 above you and he's just waiting to c-pick. He starts his dive on ya. What's the best evasive? what I'm doing now is to go into a hard spiral down edging on black out with target view lock on so I can see when he gets past. I try to do this losing as little alt as possible. When he blows past and goes for the regain on alt I either deck it to get out or go into a shallow climb away from the cpicker to increase distance and get some alt back on him.
Any other ideas?
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Let anyone get real committed to the attack and then just inside of 1k you break hard and then split S out. Yes you give up altitude to them but you do increase the distance and have a better chance at breaking the stalemate you were in. Once you do that just get your head back on a swivel and make sure the guy didn't try to reverse on you while you were in the Split S and starting your shallow climb out of the cellar.
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Originally posted by kj714
Here's the situation:
You see a high 51 above you and he's just waiting to c-pick. He starts his dive on ya. What's the best evasive? what I'm doing now is to go into a hard spiral down edging on black out with target view lock on so I can see when he gets past. I try to do this losing as little alt as possible. When he blows past and goes for the regain on alt I either deck it to get out or go into a shallow climb away from the cpicker to increase distance and get some alt back on him.
Any other ideas?
Use his speed against him. The best thing to do is pass under his nose with a split-S and force him to pull G's to try and track you. If he has a decent roll rate he can roll inverted to track if he chops throttle drastically, but then you pull up and at an angle causing him to overshoot while maintaing most of your altitude and gaining some E in the process. I would only do the sprial dive if you notice him too late to suck him into the rolling reversal. THe idea is not only to evade his pass but work to equalize E states. The best way to accomplish this is to force overshoots by making him overcommit and dump E. No smart cherry picker is going to blow much E on a spiral diver, he'll just sit on his perch, shadow you, not let you alt, and probably make more passes.
Zazen
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I've used the split S before, but I only used it when I know I'm gonna deck it and run. I guess I fell into the spiral thing cause I felt it gave me more options, but some guys see read it well. Good suggestion though, thanks! If you are in the 51 what's the best option to counter? Chop throttle and oblique turn to get on the 6 shot?
Zazen - that puts you on top with him having to climb past you or extend out, so you just follow him right?
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Pop flares.
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Originally posted by kj714
I've used the split S before, but I only used it when I know I'm gonna deck it and run. I guess I fell into the spiral thing cause I felt it gave me more options, but some guys see read it well. Good suggestion though, thanks! If you are in the 51 what's the best option to counter? Chop throttle and oblique turn to get on the 6 shot?
Zazen - that puts you on top with him having to climb past you or extend out, so you just follow him right?
If I were the 51 and someone did what I described I would not follow him through the reversal, I would pull up, perform an immelman hope he pulled up toward me, stall him out and wack him as he falls off. If he didn't pull up toward me I would myself split-S with lead pusuit in the hopes he goes vertical. It would usually be a mistake to follow his defensive manuever unless you had a clear manueverability advantage as you are sacraficing alot of E to get that angle.
Zazen
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kj, before you split S, ask the 51 if it's me in it. Split S on me and I'll get you first pass.
The best thing to do is pass under his nose with a split-S and force him to pull G's to try and track you. If he has a decent roll rate he can roll inverted to track if he chops throttle drastically, but then you pull up and
Well, I don't know how others do it, but I'd see the split S coming and use negative G's to get a shot, kill the guy and go happily about my business. Forget that fancy roll inverted pull hard G fancy pilot stuff.. too complicated for me. :)
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kj714, being the P51 a decent pilot/shooter (he will not dive very fast on u ...), you can do just NONE to evade effectively the attack. But if you keep fast enough and with good separation, you can try pointing on him when he dives to force a vertical HO.
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What are you flying?
shamus
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Turn into him and pass under his nose as he attacks.
Only a handful of the best of the best pilots, can force a shot in, in that situation. Repeat that a few times and the P-51, will soon have to decide whether he will; a) run away, or b) commit himself to a closer fight.
If he does neither, he will usually get caught in his next zoom climb and get shot down.
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Just hide in the bushes. It works well.
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If he gets you
Blame Him ---> (http://www.westleeds.org/bbb/hitler.gif)
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Depending on what plane you're in, let him get within 7-800 then break very hard into a tight barrel roll (or snap roll if you can control it). If he's not cautious, and again, depending on your ride (and your relativel E states), you have a small window to open fire on him.
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Originally posted by Steve
kj, before you split S, ask the 51 if it's me in it. Split S on me and I'll get you first pass.
Don't worry, Steve's plane is easy to spot - it has a picture of a cat on the fuselage. :D
Sorry Steve - just trawling. ;)
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It's a big "E" .... easymode :D
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kj always keep in mind the psychology that dictates the tactics here. most of this type will be opportunists. They are not out looking for a tough fight.
This type of pilot has an internal clock or a hard deck or some combination that determines when to break off and when to press attacks.
Starting out you just want to set off their internal alarm bells to leave you alone.
If they're patient on perch...and you're in relative clear skies...make them set that perch at a lower alt. This keeps them checking their 6 after each pass because of the threat of late adds.
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Originally posted by Steve
It's a big "E" .... easymode :D
LOL! :D Glad we're friends again. :)
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Originally posted by Hornet
kj always keep in mind the psychology that dictates the tactics here. most of this type will be opportunists. They are not out looking for a tough fight.
This type of pilot has an internal clock or a hard deck or some combination that determines when to break off and when to press attacks.
Starting out you just want to set off their internal alarm bells to leave you alone.
If they're patient on perch...and you're in relative clear skies...make them set that perch at a lower alt. This keeps them checking their 6 after each pass because of the threat of late adds.
That's a very good point Hornet. Very few pilots will go past the point of no return in terms of commital on a BnZ attack. There are ways to make yourself an unattractive target without dumping all of your E. Eventually the attacker will give up or screw up and lose the advantage. I have always contended to those that malign alt-monkeys/cherry-pickers etc. that only someone with very poor SA will get killed by someone BnZ'ing them 1 vs 1. It requires a great shot by the attacker to successfully BnZ someone who is aware of the threat and is manuevering accordingly.
Zazen
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By the way, Steve. You'd better not tell Mr. Toad that you dive onto cons like that. That would be using an alt advantage. :eek: You know he disapproves of that sort of thing. :lol
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Toad knows that I'll dive on cons. I kicked the crap out of his 205 just the other day.
Disclaimer: Never mind that Toad had no ailerons, was pointed down, was inverted, and had a guy chasing him. Sorry toad, that rook just couldn't get you, despite your condition. I knew it was you in the 205 and couldn't resist. :D
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"This type of pilot has an internal clock or a hard deck or some combination that determines when to break off and when to press attacks.
Starting out you just want to set off their internal alarm bells to leave you alone."
That is a good point and one which I haven't been factoring in enough. My usual strategic thinking consists of how am I going to kill this guy, no matter where I'm starting out from. LOL!
I guess I don't have to fight everybody, huh?
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Originally posted by kj714
"This type of pilot has an internal clock or a hard deck or some combination that determines when to break off and when to press attacks.
Starting out you just want to set off their internal alarm bells to leave you alone."
That is a good point and one which I haven't been factoring in enough. My usual strategic thinking consists of how am I going to kill this guy, no matter where I'm starting out from. LOL!
I guess I don't have to fight everybody, huh?
Yea, the chances of you finding a Co-E, Co-Alt, 1 vs. 1 fight with a comparably performing plane without a fuel load handicap either way in the MA is less than hitting the powerball 3 draws in a row while getting struck by lightning. Just think of it as odds, learn to quickly judge relative E states and your odds of successfully equalizing them. Sometimes plane match-ups are in your favor, or you're really light and therefore more nimble and you can press the issue but more often than not, that is not the case.
Generally speaking, unless you have some advantage you are able to exploit, disengage and get an advantage. Doing otherwise just risks giving an undeserving enemy your pelt for no other reason than you lack the patience, discretion and rationality to realize 9 out of 10 times you are staring in the face of a losing situation. Unless of course you just enjoy giving the enemy a big stick to beat you with and have enough disposable free time to replane and re-alt to the fighting over and over on these new HUGE time consuming maps we are forced to endure.
If I just invested 30 minutes and have 4 pelts in my pouch I'm not about to give some Niki or La7 l33t k3wl d00d with some alt on me the opportunity to face shoot me. He'll instead get the priviledge of chasing me to friends and/or ack and certain death....
Zazen