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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Flyboy on March 06, 2004, 11:58:34 AM

Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Flyboy on March 06, 2004, 11:58:34 AM
HTC

please remove the awfull icon tags of those planes (the "14" on the spit and the "4" on the f4u)

those tags make people to go in a suicidle mode in which they will do anything to kill the perk plane, this is ruining the gameplay IMHO and and im sure others will agree.

i dont mind if you double or even tripple the perk cost of the planes or give them a different skin so players could recognize the type of plane after they get close, make them a glowing green as far as a i concern, at least it wont get every con inside icon range to point the nose on the poor pilot who rides the above aircrafts.

i know nothing is going to be changes in AH1 so i posted it in here hoping that atleast in AH2 something will be change.


so this is my humble plea to you HTC.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Batz on March 06, 2004, 12:37:03 PM
Leave them as is. There’s no reason to allow these 2 planes to hide behind an icon. Anyone seeking the advantage of these planes should do it in the open so they can get mocked and ridiculed when they screw up.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: LWACE on March 06, 2004, 12:52:33 PM
They arent that much better. I also say leave em as is, makes it so you gotta pay more attention to get home safely.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Karnak on March 06, 2004, 01:13:05 PM
My suggestion would be to remodel the Spitfire Mk XIV with +25 Boost on 150 octane fuel.  That would give it a deck speed of ~390mph and that speed would give it a shot at surviving in the hands of a non-maesto.

I don't know enough about the F4U-4, but there might be a similar solution for it.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: lasersailor184 on March 06, 2004, 01:45:57 PM
I don't know much about them, but from 1500 yards, can you easily tell the Spit's apart, and the F4u's apart (aside from any pain jobs)?
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: simshell on March 06, 2004, 02:19:33 PM
il just say this

ever pliot when flying in combat in a armed aircraft has a list of most deadly enemys around him and best targets

so the list would kind of be like this

most deadly             best targets
la7 1.0k                      C47 1.0K
spit9 3.4k                  LANCASTER3.5K
spit9 5.6k


now what happens is when a spit14 comes in the area around him he well see that plane as the most deadly and most rewarding to kill  tho most pliots only will look at the rewards for such a good kill of such a great aircraft

so if they can they well try to take this aircraft out mainly looking at the rewards and sense that person well only go to the tower not losing anything HO's are alright  because he feels that the risk is lower then the reward

whats giving people fits about flying these planes is that almost all planes that have a chance for a ping will stop going after the lesser enemy and go after there super plane and then you get a gangbang of 5 v 1 and that kind of stuff
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: simshell on March 06, 2004, 02:23:01 PM
the best thing to do would ether be leave as is

or

lower the perk costs
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Flyboy on March 06, 2004, 02:37:25 PM
here is another thing to consider.

both the spit14 and the f4u-4 are not "super planes".


spit14 is slower then the P51 untill 28k or so, (with wep its about even)
spit14 is slower and climb about the same as the 109g10 (allso the 109 wep can hold for ages while the spit wep is drained in several minutes)

La7s typhoons dora's hawgs even La5s will run it down on low altitudes.

F4u4 is about same speed as the p51 and is slower then the 109g10 at all altitudes.

it has an averege climb rate and it will get run down by La7s at low altitudes.


Im not saying they are bad planes. but my point is that all it takes is a couple of CO alt La7s \p51s or 109s (mix in a few niks and spits) and its pretty much over.

you have 3 cons locked on you, and nothing will make them break of.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: simshell on March 06, 2004, 02:41:12 PM
just to let you know the LA7 is only 2 mph faster then the F4U4 and the P51 is not faster at lower alts then the F4U4

now the spit what makes it so great is the fact that its almost great in all areas in fighter combat has great turn rate with a powerful ENG good firepower

and its the best E fighter in the game

the spit14 rules in 1v1 but in this main were speed is life it has a hard time
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: simshell on March 06, 2004, 02:43:12 PM
would like to note that the spit14 gets over 410mph at 10k so i would not call it slow by any means

its just that the spit14 is not realy fast on the deck


o yea the F4U4 is faster then the 109G-10 on the deck
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Rafe35 on March 06, 2004, 08:48:58 PM
I agree with Flyboy about Spitfire 14 and F4U-4 are not super plane, because they are perk plane and they should not be perk plane.  

F4U-4 Corsair is pretty fast (448 mph) at over 25,000 feet and they just pretty fast at high alt.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 07, 2004, 07:54:29 AM
Did u forget Ta152 (190)?
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Kweassa on March 07, 2004, 08:29:20 AM
The La-7, Hawker Tempest, F4U-4, and the Spit14.. they are all comparable planes. All of them boasting incredible performance as a late war fighter.


 ...


 But let's think about it this way.

 The La-7 is severely ridiculed in the MA. As a free plane, so many people fly it in such a blind manner that they are not even considered a serious threat anymore.

 They are the living symbols of "stupid n00b flying". You see actually more veterans concerned about fighting a '42 Spit9, than the '45 3x20mm La-7.

 The La-7 maneuvers better than the Tempest. The Tempest has better jabo capabilities and better firepower, but it's not such a great plane at high altitudes, either. The Tempest has a delicate inline engine with high probability of coolant problems when engine hit. The two planes both have the same exceptional quality of low alt speed and acceleration.

 So, -10 perks for the relatively weaker firepower, -10 points for the lack of jabo capabilities, and it would be worth 50 perks as a pure fighter plane comparable with the Temp. Okay, okay, -30 perks for being not a rare plane - that still makes the La-7 worth about 20 points.

 So, anybody here willing to fly a La-7 at 20 perks?

 Anyone?

 I didn't think so.

 ...


 Okay, how about a simular comparison with the Bf109G-10 and the Spit14? One's a free plane, the other's super expensive at 60 perks.

 The Spit14 was not a rare bird. Simular speed and climb performance compared to the G-10. More effective firepower, but like the Bf109, short legged in ranges and not much jabo capabilities.

 So, -15 points for worse maneuverability.

 Anybody wanna fly the G-10 at 45 perks?



 ...


 Okay, sorry, my point is this.

 The Tempest, F4U-4, Ta152H, Spit14, these four planes are all too severely overperked.

 10 points for the Temp, 4hog and the Ta
 5 points for the Spit14.

 My suggestion.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 07, 2004, 08:39:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
[B The Tempest, F4U-4, Ta152H, Spit14, these four planes are all too severely overperked. [/B]


Cant agree with that. All of them are cheap rides, unless you dont plan to take them back at home, and, if this is the case, in most cases you have the "similar" unperked plane ready at any hangar.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Flyboy on March 07, 2004, 09:40:20 AM
i agree with you fully GODO

my point is the magnet like icons ruin the enjoyment of flying those planes.

i dont mind "paying" 100 or 200 points for flying the spit14 as long as it doesnt show that awfull 14 on the icon.

when i roll in a fighter my #1 prioroty is to land it back, A thing that becomes extremely tough when i fly the "kick me" sign planes. alltough they are good, you just cant deal with 5 cons alone and you cant allweys run awey allso.


maybe you could add a "load out" option when flying those planes in which for an extra 50\ 100\ 200 perk points, the "kick me" tags will not show. it sounds like a good compromise, if the game code can allow it.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 07, 2004, 10:18:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
the "kick me" tags


These tags really say "kick me as soon as possible, because else I'll kick all of you for sure".
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 07, 2004, 11:31:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Leave them as is. There’s no reason to allow these 2 planes to hide behind an icon.


My question would be why  the G10 and the D9 can ?

btw Wotan can you send me a mail at : straffo@me109.net I've a document to send to you.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 07, 2004, 01:17:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
My question would be why  the G10 and the D9 can ?


As well as P51D, P51B, Typhoon, La7, F4U1D, of course, if we are again into the perk-by-speed criteria.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: bozon on March 07, 2004, 02:53:16 PM
there were numerous suggestions making range-changing icons:
at long range - they show only country.
medium range - general plane type (example: Spit).
short range - complete data (spit14).

that way, the guys in your immidiate vicinity know you are a perk ride (or whether you are spit 9 or 5, 109G10 or F4, which is also important and will be hard to tell with the new skins).
And bandits far away will not be attracted by the "kill me" neon sign.

was there any word from HTC about this?

Bozon
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: simshell on March 07, 2004, 03:00:39 PM
10 points for the Temp, 4hog and the Ta
5 points for the Spit14.


no way they would own the MAIN if there that low  these planes should be rare to face but not so rare like it is now

and lowering the perk costs is not going to stop the hords from going after these planes  there great planes and almost all of the perk planes outclass nonperk fighters in the same class only one that comes to mind is the TA152 that is not realy great to have perks while the LA7 has none

but this is not about the LA7

im not realy sure what perk cost would be better but not that low!

SPIT14 15 perks F4U4  20 perks tempest 30 perks TA152 0 like its going to own anything but space ME262 stays the same ME163 stays the same
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 07, 2004, 03:15:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
As well as P51D, P51B, Typhoon, La7, F4U1D, of course, if we are again into the perk-by-speed criteria.


how stupid I am ...
The Typhoon got the same icon the hurrycan..
The LA7 got the same icon the LA5...
The F4U1D is a performance demon compared to the F4U1C...
And the P51 are extremly different... so different that one is used to put satelits on orbit.


Now that is settled why should the E4 and the G10 share the same icon ?
Why should the A5 and the D9 share the same icon ?

To fit your agenda ?



No thanks.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: lasersailor184 on March 07, 2004, 03:37:02 PM
No one has answered my question.





Aside from the paint jobs, can you physically see the difference between spit 9 and spit 14, and the F4u's and F4u4 from a distance?
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 07, 2004, 04:03:44 PM
What distance ?

If you mean a distance were combats is avoidable : no.

If you mean a distance were combats is already on  : yes.

In real : I don't know
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Batz on March 07, 2004, 04:36:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
My question would be why  the G10 and the D9 can ?

btw Wotan can you send me a mail at : straffo@me109.net I've a document to send to you.



Ask HT why all icons are not type specific as it is beyond my control. That's not what this thread is about. Flyboy is asking that the F4U-4 and Spit 14 icons be changed because when he flies them he feels gang banged. My reply is "please don't change it". Should he re-phrase the question to "Please change all icans to type specific" my reply would be different. :p


Email sent.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 07, 2004, 04:52:35 PM
Yep you nailed it : all is at will of HTC :)

Lots have tried to find the reasons behind the icons ... it should be either very simple or very cryptic, but one single think is sure : only HTC know the real reasons :D
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 07, 2004, 05:35:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
To fit your agenda ?


So, only G10 and D9 should be affected, of course SpitIX is the same then SpitI, F4U1D the same than F4U1, FM2 the same than F4F4 ... where is the agenda?
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 08, 2004, 02:26:00 AM
I don't know your agenda, but if you have trouble dispatching a IX  or a F4U1D with either a G10 or a D9 (co-E obviously) your problem is not a icon problem :)
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 08, 2004, 02:33:45 AM
Aside from any flame (I know I'm rude and irritant :p)

On solution would be IMO (and I could be very wrong as usual) a more complex icon system like :

Let use a D9 in this demonstration

6k icon is 190
4/3K icon is 190D (if IRL it's possible to see the <> at this distance)
or
1/2K icon is 190D9 or Ta152
4/3K icon is 190A
1/2K icon is 190A8 or 190A5


It's certainly incomplete and subject to change :)
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 08, 2004, 02:22:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I don't know your agenda, but if you have trouble dispatching a IX  or a F4U1D with either a G10 or a D9 (co-E obviously) your problem is not a icon problem :)


But may be I'm not into D9 or G10, perhaps I'm flying a FM2 and I want to know if the enemy is SpitIX or SpitV, as an example.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: hitech on March 08, 2004, 03:32:00 PM
The different names are there so they can be hunted.

HiTech
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Batz on March 08, 2004, 03:49:46 PM
lmao
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: LWACE on March 08, 2004, 03:53:11 PM
Then, why not make all the planes that way? instead of 109 and 190 etc, make it 190A5, 190A8,190F,190D,109E,F,G6 and G10.

That way for the people that dont have laser super vision, and cant make out what plane is what at great distances, then people know what theyre up against before its to late.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: straffo on March 08, 2004, 04:01:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
The different names are there so they can be hunted.

HiTech


The lord spoke and for once his will is clear :)
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Karnak on March 08, 2004, 04:21:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
The different names are there so they can be hunted.

HiTech


Yes, that is why I would like to see the Spit XIV be modeled with +25 boost.  That way it might actually have a fighting chance while being hunted.

The F4U-4 and Ta152 also have this problem, though to a lesser degree.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: GODO on March 08, 2004, 05:59:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The F4U-4 and Ta152 also have this problem, though to a lesser degree.


Have you really compared Ta152 climb/speed charts against SpitXIV ones? SpitXIV outperforms the Ta clearly up to 25k.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Pongo on March 08, 2004, 06:23:52 PM
Icons are too simplistic and the perk tag is just a by product
Should be nation and classification only from 10k till 4k and only show range in 1000 yard increments.

IE Rook symbol with B7K or F6K

At 4000 yards it could switch to generic type and 500 yard intervals

Rook Symbol and P51 3.5k

At 1000 yards it could turn to precise type and 100 yard counters.

Rook P51D600

It is important that the enemy know they are fighting a Spit XIV and not a Spit I at least 1000 yards out.

Generic terms are LAG, YAK, SPIT, 109
Specific terms are LA5, LA5FN, LA7, LA7B20, Spit XIV Spit IX, 109G2, 109G10, 109F4

Etc.
The game should just be that way or  very close to it.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Smuz on March 08, 2004, 06:32:41 PM
I would agree with Bozon, except for medium range-------- forget it. Use long range to short for country Icon (5.9k to 1k) short for plane ID (1k to 0 ). That way no one would have a range advantage for the plane ID until they meet it.








Smuz

Airmageddon Squadron


"If it ain't broke it will be"
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Karnak on March 08, 2004, 06:50:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GODO
Have you really compared Ta152 climb/speed charts against SpitXIV ones? SpitXIV outperforms the Ta clearly up to 25k.

Ta152 is faster and has twice the WEP duration.  Look at the Spit XIV's numbers without WEP.  They're mediocre at best.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: AcId on March 08, 2004, 07:09:36 PM
well....if they are tagged to be hunted then how about some consistancy among perk tags? Why not change the F4U-1C icon?
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: F4UDOA on March 08, 2004, 07:30:16 PM
The number 1 reason perk tags should be removed.

REALISM

If you could't tell in real life if it was an F4U-4, Spit XIV or TA152 from 500 yards then why on earth should we see it here?

It's just gamey.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Rafe35 on March 08, 2004, 08:01:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
The number 1 reason perk tags should be removed.

REALISM

If you could't tell in real life if it was an F4U-4, Spit XIV or TA152 from 500 yards then why on earth should we see it here?

It's just gamey.
Since you know so much about F4U-4, Im going ask you one little question.  Did really F4U-4 carry two tiny tim rocket during Okinawa in 1945 before War ended?  I just saw some picture that F4U-4 with Tiny Tim and i forgot the link.  :D
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: F4UDOA on March 09, 2004, 02:31:57 PM
I am not sure if they ever fired two in combat but they certainly could carry them.

Here is a pic.

(http://www.vought.com/heritage/photo/assets/images/db_images/db_1111_05.jpg)
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: wetrat on March 09, 2004, 04:08:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
My suggestion would be to remodel the Spitfire Mk XIV with +25 Boost on 150 octane fuel.  That would give it a deck speed of ~390mph and that speed would give it a shot at surviving in the hands of a non-maesto.

I don't know enough about the F4U-4, but there might be a similar solution for it.
150 Octane, woah. That's some expensive juice right there.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Shuckins on March 09, 2004, 05:02:03 PM
I agree with F4UDOA.  If you could not tell the difference between an F4U-1 and an F4U-4 in real life then why should it be any different in this game.  I've never found the F4U-4 to be dangerous enough to warrant the perk price.  Bounce one with a significant altitude advantage and it'll wind up being toast, unless there is a hot stick at the controls.

Personally, I think the suggestion that the -4's icon only be identifiable at short range is a good one.  The same could be done for the Spit XIV. I don't believe it should be that hard to program into the game.  I'm for any suggestion that promotes realism.

Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Zanth on March 09, 2004, 08:03:05 PM
Not a complicated issue.  Icons (for ALL planes) should be applied consistently - nothing more, nothing less.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: Batz on March 09, 2004, 08:11:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
Not a complicated issue.  Icons (for ALL planes) should be applied consistently - nothing more, nothing less.


At this point in the thread it's no longer an "issue". HT's reply was

Quote
The different names are there so they can be hunted.


To me that seemed to settle it.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: moot on March 10, 2004, 03:36:15 AM
you need binoculars if you can't recognize a 152 from any range, nevermind tell it from a 190.
Title: a plea regarding the spit14 and f4u-4
Post by: WilldCrd on March 10, 2004, 03:54:52 AM
Think the only icons we need is green