Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hap on March 06, 2004, 03:11:26 PM
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nufsed.
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well hap happy, I couldn't agree with you more.
ALTHOUGH, IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN
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here's real sophistocated reason why: would be a hoot to have her unperked. would be fun. you'll die lots many planes can chase her down. and she's pretty much out of service.
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Bingo:aok
Although some are going to disagree just because the like to.
And I dont think it will happend...
If it does happend I'll buy a round of drinks for HTC staff at the next con
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funny this thread appeared; twice in the last few weeks i grabbed a tempest by accident (missed typh with the mouse, ended up in tempest) but didnt figure it out until near end of each flight. The fuel tanks clued me in. anyway, a 6 kill and a 4 kill, all the while I am thinking "man, this typh sure handling better than I remember!"
I am all for unperking the tempest; while we are at it the spit 14!
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LMAO! I've done that too many times in the spit 14.
I'd be flying around wondering why everyone is attacking me. Also why I was going so fast.
Then when I go to check the perks from when I get shot down, it's -65.
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I'm not sure that the Tempest should be unperked, but I would like to see the perk cost brought down to 10 or so, just like the C-Hog.
I do think that the RAF is missing out by not having a lightly perked plane.
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And dont forget to unperk 262 also.
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And dont forget to unperk 262 also.
Lets not get carried away.
There is an obvious advantage/advantages that the 262 has over nearly every other plane in the MA besides the Me163.
Edit: Go back and look for posts on this topic. The CHog wasn't perked at the begining. But it is now. But the NIK isnt'. I will never understand why this is. Either perk them both or de-perk the chog is what I always say.
Nothing will change the simple fact that HiTech has the final say in what is perked and not perked. I'd rahter see a bunch of blue planes with cannons stalling out all over the place than the hundreds of NIKs one will see on a daily basis in the MA. But I'm not HiTech and neither are any of you. Point being, this will never go any further than this thread. Sad but true.
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Tempest can't be un-perked because... uh... it has less ammo than a niki and can't turn with an la7... yeah...
and uh... Spit14 can't be un-perked because... it uh... has a 5 bladed prop... .... myep.... can't have that....
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Lets not get carried away.
de-perk the chog is what I always say.
this will never go any further than this thread. Sad but true.
I agree. while it has very nice guns. It doesnt fly well enough to warrant a perked status. Even if it is a cheap perked plane.
I Say perk ALL spits cept the earliest models.
Too many people in spits these days.
Pretty soon we sould just rename the game "Spits High"
Guess ya can tell I hate spits.
yea I know it wont go any farther then this thread.
But we can dream cant we? :)
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That would be interesting, Drediock.
Ya know, is'nt the reason the CHog was perked was because everyone was flying them ?
Well, that and it turned like a fm2 and had 4 hispos, of course.
I'd like to see what the next plane would be the "spitfire" if ya perked them.
Now, I Would like to see the c-hog unperked.I mean, They corrected the wieght, so it's not like it was way back.
It would be my pork plane of choice :)
A ahh! Thats how ya do a smiley ! Eureka!:(
Cool ):
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How bout we perk the La-7 and the Nik... and add a new perk bomber (if you read the help page it mentions the B-29 as a perked bomber)so I can use all these Bomber Perk Points.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Lets not get carried away.
Nothing will change the simple fact that HiTech has the final say in what is perked and not perked. I'd rahter see a bunch of blue planes with cannons stalling out all over the place than the hundreds of NIKs one will see on a daily basis in the MA. But I'm not HiTech and neither are any of you. Point being, this will never go any further than this thread. Sad but true.
Heh, Chog guys are adamant about this, almost as chauvinistic as 109 drivers are about paint schemes, however . . . .
The fact is you were not likely to encounter a later war Japanese aircraft except in had cannons whereas the CHog was far and away the least likely configuration a japanese aviator would face (CHog was designed as a ground support AC). Unperk it and no other Hogs would ever fly, and that would be a shame and flatly sillier--far sillier--than having so many Nikis. The Niki did outnumber the Chogh in production terms, I think only what, 200 Chogs were produced? I guess a valid question is: why were they included in Aces High?
If you want to bait and destroy Nikis, learn to fly the P-38--it owns them.
I think there should be two arenas: Extreme Pretend La La land for guys who want to play Chog vs Ta-152 all day with no perks on any rides, and one that mimicks as closely as is possible given the constraints of the game the actual war.
That is why I am usually in Combat Theatre.
Sakai
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Originally posted by Sakai
I think there should be two arenas: Extreme Pretend La La land for guys who want to play Chog vs Ta-152 all day with no perks on any rides, and one that mimicks as closely as is possible given the constraints of the game the actual war.
Sakai
they have one... it's called the TA, which is where most of these perk whiners *should* be flying - if they learned to fly the other rides, they'd earn enough perkies to fly whatever they wanted.
:D
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As an avid Tempest flyer i have to say that the Tempest does deserve perk status. Its acceleration and guns give enormous closind speed and killing power. Ive been caught exactly 4 times in 3 years playing aces high..and they were all from a pilot trimming his plane at 500+ to stay with me. Its an awesome ride.
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wow wtg jaxx :aok
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i grabbed a tempest by accident (missed typh with the mouse, ended up in tempest) but didnt figure it out until near end of each flight. The fuel tanks clued me in.
you're lucky I didn't realize I had done it till I was 1.2 away from the ostwind I was trying to strafe and a squaddie says over vox "uhhhh... Soulyss... you know that's a tempest right?" I believe my exact response was "...what?" before I was blown into itty bitty pieces, what followed on vox cannot be repeated here or in polite company. :)
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Originally posted by Heretik
Tempest can't be un-perked because... uh... it has less ammo than a niki and can't turn with an la7... yeah...
and uh... Spit14 can't be un-perked because... it uh... has a 5 bladed prop... .... myep.... can't have that....
It's the fastest prop plane OTD, Mil or WEP..and who cant turn with an La7? sheesh :)
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It would be cool if all the perk planes were listed together at the bottom of the page to avoid the 'flying while drunk' loss of perks late at night! LOL
Somehow F4U4 looks a lot like F4U1, Spit XIV looks like Spit IX and Tempest looks like Typhoon.
That plus somehow when drinking it seems like a great idea to fly a heavy tempest NOE into a fully CAPped base.
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:rofl yup. its a curse i think.
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Tempest can't be un-perked because... uh... it has less ammo than a niki and can't turn with an la7... yeah... and uh... Spit14 can't be un-perked because... it uh... has a 5 bladed prop... .... myep.... can't have that....
Sorry but in that case the problem really doesn't lie in the plane...
Fact is, it out accelerates every other plane in the MA except for the 262 and 163. 262 only when the 262 already has got a good deal of speed. It outzoom about every other plane in the arena. Its engine is good up to and beyond 20k compared to the LA7.
It climbs better then all other planes except for 109 G10 and Spit 14. It's got FOUR FREAKING HIZOOKAS with a good deal of ammo, one quick burts with 2 or 3 pings on the enemy plane is almost always enough and you can get kills easily at 500 yards or more. I've lost my 262 tail to a single hizooka ping from 1.1k fired (sprayed) by a tiffie.
Spit 14? Best climber in the game, hizookas, good turner, exelent B&Z plane, very good acceleration.
I could go with a perk decrease, tempest say 40 or 50 and spit 14 maybe 30. But unperk em? Ya'll drunk?
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Do you think its time to put this whine on the other side of the fence?
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Well sort of BT, personally I just can't see how anyone could think the plane should or even could be unperked, like I said, a lower perk cost, sure thing, that way we can see more of them and people with less perks and who fly less can afford them but unperking it just isent a realistic choice IMO. If the Tempest is unperked then so should every other perk prop fighter and then there would be almost only tempest in the MA.
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Frankly Wil, when people have free access to the La-7, it's pretty unfair for the Brit fans as to see the Tempest being perked, and at such high prices, too.
Now, before you go and say the Temp is different from the La-7, listen to this:
For vastly superior armament of quad-Hizookas, ordnance, and a bit better high alt performance(but the Temp's not an exceptional performer at high alts, too), let's say we give each of those attributes a 4 point perk worth.
This 4 point perk per attribute assumption is not arbitrary - I'm basing it on the C-hog.
The C-hog is not an exceptional performer, and the D-hog which has very simular flight characteristics and even more ordnance, is non-perked.
People overused it due to the fact that the balanced qualities in armament(literally, the Hizooka made exceptionally effective thanks to AH style of damage infliction), possibility of carrier operations, and a heavy overloaded strike package, made it the one-and-all plane of choice. Quad-Hizookas of nearly 900 rounds of cannon made it possible for people to achieve phenomenal numbers of kills, at the same time, being able to carry heavy ordnance. It was THE vulch-craft.
Thus, it was finally decided to be perked at 8 points. So, divide the 8 perks by the two characteristics that made it an overused plane - and you get 4 points per attribute.
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In that case, 4 points for Quad-Hizookas, 4 points for 2000lbs ordnance, another 4 points for pure performance - and that's still only 12 points. The Tempest is overperked by at least 58 points.
Or rather, if the Tempy should be perked at 70 points, subtract the three major attributes the La-7 lacks compared to the Tempy and it's still 58 points left - meaning: the La-7 should be perked at 58 points, of considering it should be fair.
Same thing with the Spit14.
Compare it to the Bf109G-10 which climbs the same as the Spit14, has twice the WEP duration, faster than the Spit14 at lower alts, same speed at high alts, but suffers from inferior balance of maneuverability and control heaviness at high speeds. Also, weaker armament(if not weak in power, a la MK108, then weak in effectivity).
So, 4 points for exceptional climb qualities, 4 points for overall balance between speed and maneuverability, 4 points for Hizookas - 12 points. Subtract 12 points from the 60 point Spit14, and the Bf109G-10 should be a 48 point plane, in all due fairness to the RAF fans.
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It's pretty obvious then.
Four possible solutions:
1) leave it as it is
2) unperk all of them
3) lower the perks on the Tempy, 4Hog, and Spit14 and Ta152.
4) lightly perk all of the late war planes.
1) is really unfair. 2) is unacceptable.
It should be either "3) or 4)", or, "3) and 4)"
Personally, I choose "3) and 4)". All the late war planes should be perked lightly, according to the logic and agenda which I have been lobbying for a long time(details in my sig).
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Dang Kweassa, you wrote alot to try and convince me of something that I already agree with you upon :D
Frankly Wil, when people have free access to the La-7, it's pretty unfair for the Brit fans as to see the Tempest being perked, and at such high prices, too.
Well, when people have free access to the LA7 it's pretty unfair for both Brits fans (Tempest, spit 14) and LW Fans (Ta152) to have any of those perk planes perked. Sure enough the Ta152 has superior zoom to about every plane, AT 30K!
Now, before you go and say the Temp is different from the La-7, listen to this:
I don't think the La7 is much different, it's got a 20mm less but they are all noce mounted. It accelerates ALMOST as good as tht tempest, it zooms as good and turns with it. Perosnally I think that if the tempest is perked so should the LA7 be, only slightly cheaper.
As for spit 14, once again I agree, it's vastly overperked like almost every other perk plane in AH (cept for the 262 and Me163). 20 perks tops for it. G10 perked? Uhmm, no, not easy enough to get kills with due to bad armament, if you mount 3x20's on it it's no longer worth being perked performance wise. but lower Spit 14 perk, definatly.
If the tempest and Spit 14 should be lowered so should the F4u4 and the Ta152 (although the Ta152 is the cheapest of the perkies part from the C hog it is also the worst of the perkies inclduing the C-hog)
So I agree with you on pretty much every point except that all late war planes should be perked at a low price. But I don't agree with the "unperk the tempest" whine.
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the temp owns the la7 in all engagements. at all alts. in all styles.
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Originally posted by Shane
the temp owns the la7 in all engagements. at all alts. in all styles.
I've got to agree on this. The Tempest is the only perk plane I like to fly. I fly it specifically to hunt La7's. I am not the best pilot in the world, but in a Tempest just about any La7 is easy meat even for me (with the probable exception of Shane heh). I can only think of one area the La7 is superior to the Tempest and that is roll rate.
Zazen
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Should lower the perks on the Temp and the F4u4.
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I hardly ever get involved in this kind of debate but I just felt like throwing my two cents in.
I agree that the Tempest, Ta152 and the Spit14 are priced a bit high. I base my assessment of this on the frequency that I see them fly. I'm not saying that the sky should be full of them however I rarely see them, to the point that I go days without seeing either of them.
I'm thinking that the perk system is basically designed to limit a certain planes use so that we don't wind up all flying just 2 or 3 types. To that end I would think that any plane that is otherwise a good plane and is not being seen with any frequency at all would then be one to look at as far as perk cost. I'm wondering why the perk prices couldn't vary a little more. In other words is it something that is hard to adjust for HiTech, (not a programmer here). I would think you could just kind of adjust the cost then check for frequency then readjust as needed until a nice balance is struck. Of course this would apply to adding perks to planes that are seen with a great amount of frequency...such as the La7, Mustang (and yes I fly that bird regularly), Nik and Spit9. On the other side of the coin you are now limiting gameplay for other players...I guess it all boils down to striking that balance. It seems to me the only way to find out is to try it and see what happens.
As far as perking the late war set of planes I'm not so sure about that. The late war planes are already usually pretty good at staying out of trouble due to speed. They also lend themselves to a timid sort of flying anyway. It seems to me that if you perk them then alot of the folks flying them would be even more likely to be pretty timid, which doesnt really lend itself to good gameplay.
Oh well, that my two cents worth (thats about all it's worth too lol)
Zaphod
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As far as perking the late war set of planes I'm not so sure about that. The late war planes are already usually pretty good at staying out of trouble due to speed. They also lend themselves to a timid sort of flying anyway. It seems to me that if you perk them then alot of the folks flying them would be even more likely to be pretty timid, which doesnt really lend itself to good gameplay.
You cant get more timid then the timid already are. You can't get any deader so to speak.:D
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You cant get more timid then the timid already are. You can't get any deader so to speak.
This is true, thats why I thought that giving these ideas a shot by adjusting the perk cost associated with the planes in question and then seeing what the result is would be a good idea. Although I have no idea if its realistic to assume that HiTech can adjust these with minimal effort. We do have this whole new sim coming out ya know. :)
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Why is it always "Perk the LA7!" but never 'Perk the Pony-D" or Perk the 190D9? All three of these are awesome rides, the last two are fast with lots of firepower as compared to the LA7.
As for what is and isn't perked, it really makes little difference, because there will always be the superior non-perked model.
And if you think Spits are common now, just remove the LA7, Pony-D and Dora. The Spittie 9 and NIKI will start to shine, and their numbers will pick up.
Think of an arena with only a smattering of LA7s, P51-D, and 190D9. The perk rides like the Tempest would rule the skies. The 262 would be darn near invincible to anything but a HO.
Screw with the perkie system and game play will change.
I see the main problem being the Arcade Gunnery model in AH and not the perkies per se. I am a crack shot with a rifle, and believe me, a 1000 yard shot with a scoped rifle on a airplane sitting on the ground would be tough for the vast majority of people. Now, take a vibrating airframe, air buffeting, poor sights on a airplane, general inaccuacy of machine guns etc etc, a 1000 yard shot is mainly luck, luck and more luck. And 500 yards is a long shot, with lots of delay between firing and impact. I believe that most kills in WW2 were made under something like 200 yards.
Make 300 yards a max hit on guns, and see how the game play changes.
It would be a whole new game with a realistic gunnery model.
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Make 300 yards a max hit on guns, and see how the game play changes. It would be a whole new game with a realistic gunnery model.
But what to call this new game? Aces2High, 2HighAces ... AcesHigh2. :aok
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aka AWer's safety HO cone? no thanks
Maybe add all those factual real world factors, but projectiles magically losing lethality at 300 wouldn't be part of them.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I see the main problem being the Arcade Gunnery model in AH and not the perkies per se. I am a crack shot with a rifle, and believe me, a 1000 yard shot with a scoped rifle on a airplane sitting on the ground would be tough for the vast majority of people. Now, take a vibrating airframe, air buffeting, poor sights on a airplane, general inaccuacy of machine guns etc etc, a 1000 yard shot is mainly luck, luck and more luck. And 500 yards is a long shot, with lots of delay between firing and impact. I believe that most kills in WW2 were made under something like 200 yards.
Make 300 yards a max hit on guns, and see how the game play changes.
It would be a whole new game with a realistic gunnery model.
I no way physic will change to fit your faith, what you believe won't change that.
I just don't understand how you can ask for a realistic gunnery and in the same time ask a reduction of range of the guns.
That's completly incoherent.
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I no way physic will change to fit your faith, what you believe won't change that.
I just don't understand how you can ask for a realistic gunnery and in the same time ask a reduction of range of the guns.
That's completly incoherent.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see such an artificial "neutering" either. I'd rather see the 400~500yard shots persist than see an artificially neutered gunnery.
However, it's not so inconherent in terms of gameplay. It's sort of like the combat trim/stall horn/stick deflection issues.
In HT's own words:
Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view, that's the way the plane was set up so it should be the same in the sim. But if you step back and look at things another way, what did the plane feel like to fly and does it "FEEL" realistic when things change? When flying a real aircraft I sense very little stick movement. I perceive much more on how hard I'm pulling, how much I'm grunting, how much the stick is vibrating, than how much I'm moving the stick.
To accomplish some of this we use the stall horn, now the stall horn is NOT realistic by any means, but some method is needed to give you the same realistic feed back from the plane that you get in real life. Therefore, you are forced to choose a method that works and gives the perception of reality. We chose to setup controls that will let you stall with full stick deflection unless you are limited by control force.
[/i]
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Now, if we rephrase it to match the context of this discussion:
Now from a purely mathematical realistic point of view, that's the way the shells traveled, so the ballistics should be the same in the sim. But if you step back and look at things another way, what did the gunnery feel like when pilot's pulled the trigger, and does it "FEEL" realistic when we expect kills at certain ranges? When shooting with a real aircraft the pilot has many factors limiting his accuracy as a whole. The carefulness when pulling trigger since there are no ammo counters to tell him of his status, how much the wings flex and twist, how much vibration is at hand, the need to judge the plane's distance with only his feel.. than just how much accuracy the ballistics suggest.
To accomplish some of this we may have to use a neutered form of gunnery. Now the artificial limitations are NOT realistic by any means, but some method is needed to give you the same realistic results from the trigger's end that you get in real life. Therefore, you are forced to choose a method that works and gives the perception of reality, rather than stick with realistic implementations, that in turn, gives out unrealistic results as a whole. We may choose to setup gunnery that will result in successful hits only within realistic distances, unless you are incredibly lucky.
[/i]
In other words, if realism should be the heart of things, then realistic results should be as important as realistic ballistics.
If people take for granted the current form of gunnery, ignoring the fact that despite the realistic ballistics implemented the absence of some many factors brings out unrealistically long average killing ranges, then that's as much something needs to be criticized as cravings for artificial form of neutering.
Clearly, IMO, the long range gunnery aspect(not the occasionaly 800~1200yd shots, but rather, average killing ranges in between 400~500yards..) cannot be explained with "more pilot experience" argument alone.
It's a mystery as to why the people so ardently root for the realistic ballistics, but remain deaf ears to the fact that the results of AH gunnery does not match reality.
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some long winded text there, good though:aok
but I thinks Kweassa has gotten into someone's stash of STACKER2:D :rofl :D
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Originally posted by Kweassa
It's a mystery as to why the people so ardently root for the realistic ballistics, but remain deaf ears to the fact that the results of AH gunnery does not match reality.
What reality ?
A reality where the optimal distance for a kill is 20 meter (I'm not joking I've read an article were a Finnish pilot said it was the distance he started to kill) or a reality wherethe kill happen over 600 meter like this single eyed German pilot I forgot the name...
I'm not a sharp shooter and an average overall dweeb ,I've checked about 30 films I've made and in « my » reality kills happen in 95% of the cases between 200 and 400 yards.
Giving the netlag it can have been as far as 600 yard (or even more) for the opposing pilots
Plus I've recorded some interresting ch1 whines like : «yet another single hispano kill» when clearly on the film there is more than 5 hits sprite.
I prefer a physical and predictable result than a sort of randomized damage ala FB.
My usage randomized is certainly abusive but I've found no pertinent way to test their damage code and as I've not the listing in front of my eyes ...
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my reality kills happen in 95% of the cases between 200 and 400 yards
That's still too long straffo.
Giving the netlag it can have been as far as 600 yard (or even more) for the opposing pilots
This is also a mere, unproved theory. IIRC to Batz's test in differing distances per FE, 200 yards was the most he experienced. That's the only case of actual testing on this subject I've ever seen, and naturally that's the only result I trust so far.
Plus I've recorded some interresting ch1 whines like : «yet another single hispano kill? when clearly on the film there is more than 5 hits sprite.
While closely related to the subject at hand, still irrelevant. It's more of a DM issue than a gunnery issue.
I prefer a physical and predictable result than a sort of randomized damage ala FB.
Random? FB? You've gotta be kidding.
IMO your placing your judgement of 'solid, predictable' reality on AH, and not considering the possibility that what happens in FB might be more real, m8. IL2/FB/AEP, at least to me, is way more predictable than AH.
Unpredictability, is something like being pinged during extension at 600yards and having both of your horizontal stabs knocked out cleanly. Which if I may note, is incredibly unlikely in FB, than compared to the frequency of it in AH.
In one ways, both AH and FB are 'predictable'. Except what to predict and expect, maybe realistic for one sim, and unrealistic for the other.
My usage randomized is certainly abusive but I've found no pertinent way to test their damage code and as I've not the listing in front of my eyes ...
Unfortunately that's true. However, if you assess the damage and situation with track recordings, it's consistent and accurate - at least, accurate enough for people to understand why somethings happen and some not.
You don't see people whine and moan about Hispanos or 50cals in their game - because, ballisitics hardly matter when all planes of the war as depicted in their version of 'reality' needs to get in close to achieve satisfying results. To me, that's way more consistent in what I've heard and read about WW2 aerial warfare than AH.
Unless somebody comes up with a revolutionary evidence that people killed stuff easily at 400~500 yards by spraying their Hizooka, 50cal, or quad-20mm ammo load, my opinion on what's more consistent with reality will stay that way.
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At one time I played Tiffie and Temp exclusively and I wouldn't want to see the Temp perk free as it's an absolute monster of a plane.
Maybe lower the cost to around 10 or something. But then again perk points are a dime a dozen after a short time. I started using 232's as Jabo's at one time just so I could see if I could get rid of a few thousand. :lol
Infact 232's are great at strafing down hangers. :D
...-Gixer
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Before anyone corrects me, of course I meant 262's sorry been away for too long I guess. lol
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Kweassa
That's still too long straffo.
Certainly, I need to clarify one thing about this range :
-I'm a typhoon pilot and so I open fire at longuer distances than in a G6
Actually in a tiffy I open fire at about 350 yds and I stop at about 200 (when not to greedy :D)
-In a G6 I open fire at 250 and stop at about 100
This is also a mere, unproved theory. IIRC to Batz's test in differing distances per FE, 200 yards was the most he experienced. That's the only case of actual testing on this subject I've ever seen, and naturally that's the only result I trust so far.
[/B]
oops... I thougth there was a general consensus about this I didn't test myself.
While closely related to the subject at hand, still irrelevant. It's more of a DM issue than a gunnery issue.
[/B]
yep,but I love seing CH1 whines :p
Random? FB? You've gotta be kidding.[/B]
I was :)
IMO your placing your judgement of 'solid, predictable' reality on AH, and not considering the possibility that what happens in FB might be more real, m8. IL2/FB/AEP, at least to me, is way more predictable than AH. [/B]
I'm not using FB enought to make a fair comparaison.But even so I don't feel the difference when there is icons.
Unpredictability, is something like being pinged during extension at 600yards and having both of your horizontal stabs knocked out cleanly. Which if I may note, is incredibly unlikely in FB, than compared to the frequency of it in AH.
In one ways, both AH and FB are 'predictable'. Except what to predict and expect, maybe realistic for one sim, and unrealistic for the other.
[/B]
It depend of the setup IMO, in FB with icon I don't feel any difference between both sims.
But in FB without Icon or AH2 it'sa lot more difficult for me and it got a huge drawback for me :
it transform all large caliber guns in a sort of "BFG" single hit wonder ala Quake.
As the opponent can close undetected to 100 meter in my 6 and one single 30mm hit will transform my plane in "heat and light"
Unfortunately that's true. However, if you assess the damage and situation with track recordings, it's consistent and accurate - at least, accurate enough for people to understand why somethings happen and some not.
You don't see people whine and moan about Hispanos or 50cals in their game - because, ballisitics hardly matter when all planes of the war as depicted in their version of 'reality' needs to get in close to achieve satisfying results. To me, that's way more consistent in what I've heard and read about WW2 aerial warfare than AH.[/B]
Not true for FB french forum there is already a huge number of whines because of hispano and .50 :)
Unless somebody comes up with a revolutionary evidence that people killed stuff easily at 400~500 yards by spraying their Hizooka, 50cal, or quad-20mm ammo load, my opinion on what's more consistent with reality will stay that way. [/B]
Dunno , it will be good to get a gunery training manual from WWII and check it against our reality.
FYI I've (somewhere in my library... will be very hard to find :p) a training speech made by a Normandie-Niemen pilot it said about the Yak9T :
normal ranges is 100m to 400m against fighters, and 500m to 600m against bomber
so ?
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Unpredictability, is something like being pinged during extension at 600yards and having both of your horizontal stabs knocked out cleanly. Which if I may note, is incredibly unlikely in FB, than compared to the frequency of it in AH.
Now that you mention it, in 4+ years I don't ever recall having just 1horizontal Stab knocked off...both always go (at least I don't recall ever seeing just one go...
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Originally posted by humble
Unpredictability, is something like being pinged during extension at 600yards and having both of your horizontal stabs knocked out cleanly. Which if I may note, is incredibly unlikely in FB, than compared to the frequency of it in AH.
Now that you mention it, in 4+ years I don't ever recall having just 1horizontal Stab knocked off...both always go (at least I don't recall ever seeing just one go...
I may be wrong about this and you may want to check for yourself, but when I knock off a horizontal stab, I only see one piece of the plane falling off. Then I come back for a second pass only to find the plane floating to the grownd. It could be due to distance or whatever but thats what it looks like to me. I'll check again
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* You say you feel the damage done in FB seems "random".
* You also say "It depend of the setup IMO, in FB with icon I don't feel any difference between both sims."
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If I'm guessing correctly about what you're saying straffo, what you have said may actually confirm my argument rather than contradict it.
You feel that AH and FB isn't that different because you are able to get hits out to planes flying. You can try a 200~400m shot on some planes, and you'll see 20mms connect or debris falling off from the target.
In that aspect, I believe, you're saying "I don't feel any difference".
But probably(I think..), you feel that you've landed some good shots at those distances, but the enemy plane doesn't go down as it would in AH.
To that end you're saying "the damage feels random".
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If my guesses on what you're experiencing are correct, that's exactly what I'm talking about. There are two factors here:
1) A distance where one may be able to hit a target
2) A distance where one may be able to actually very likely bring down a target
In AH, 1) and 2) is the same.
In FB 1) and 2) is not the same.
Multiple factors that exist in FB but not in AH, is what brings out the key difference. I myself can hit something at 300m, even at 400m in FB - but very frankly, I never expect to bring something down at that range.
If I ever fire at those distances it is usually a few quick snapshots hoping that it damages a certain part of the target plane and drags down the speed, so I may catch up and get within realistic firing distances - where I do have a chance to bring the plane down.
Now, I'd do the same thing in AH, except the distance where I know I can expect to bring down the plane in AH is 400yards. Whereas it is within 200m in FB. The distance expecting a kill is about twice as longer in AH than FB. At this point the DM issue comes into relevancy.
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As for the Yak-9T, well, that's a bit of a wrong example there IMO straffo. NS-37 is a powerful cannon. I can expect a kill at those ranges to0, were I using a MK108 armed plane in FB.
If we limit it to the more conventional armament of HMGs and 20mms, I'd assume the reality is a lot different to what the Niemen reported with their particular plane. That opinion is also with Mr. Tony Williams - as a general rule of thumb, 200m max expected for fighters, 400m max for larger targets like bombers.
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I agree with you at something like 90% (your perception is correct even if my not so good English + my usual twisted reasonning add noise to my messages :D)
So far I think that a shell landing on a defined place on a plane at 200 or 400 will make almost the same damages (a 200m difference is not great)
IMO the problem is more in the interface the software give to the player aka the Icons.
I tested last night a no-icon fight in AH it was as difficult as in FB ,next I make a sortie in AH2 were the icon is different it was difficult too.
So my guess (I can't qualify it otherwyse) is gunnery physic is quite the same in the 3 sims (AH,AH2 and FB) but the icon give to much informations.
I'm pretty sure of it because when viewing my films I noticed I usualy opened fire at the instant the target was at 325 yards.
And 325 yds is my usual convergence ...
I'll try to complete this post later , my son is sick and I've to see a doctor.
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Ouch! Sorry to hear that, straffo.
Will stay comment until your done at the hospital - hope it's just a cold or something.
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Thanks Kweassa we spent 3 hour in hospital for nothing , he is fine (he was jumping everywhere after 1 hour :))
I'm sorry ,I completly forgot to complete my post and it's way to late for me (it's bed time + 1 hour :p) I'll do it tomorrow (really this time)
If you want you can comment,that's not a problem.
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The Ta-152 shouldn't even be perked at all. It's just a German P-47.
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After reading this thread and realizing that perk points probably won't roll over to AH2...I think that since I like the Typhoon a lot I'll just have to switch to Tempests until AH2's release.
This should be fun.
If perks do roll over then a mix of flights with Tempests and Yaks should keep the perkies from droping too much.
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The only plane in the MA which has even a chance at keeping up with a tempest is the la7. Unperking it is silly.
The same goes for the C-hog, it's fairly fast, very well armed, but in reality is an ultra-rare plane. (But so is the n1k2) It's also not what it was before it was perked, having had quite a bit of weight added to it.
Theres no point in unperking these planes and making the problems worse. Letting the tempest take the place of the la7, and the chog the place of the n1k2. The problem isn't that the planes are perked without cause, the problem is that they have close unperked analogs.
As it is perks are pretty useless except for flying the 262. Eliminate the inconsistent perk-tags(f4u4 vs f4u, spit14 vs spit), give several planes small perk costs, and you end up with perks being more usefull.
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my opinion for what it is worth is that the perks should be set so everyone has to work at acquiring the planes they want. the main thing is that once you win a aircraft you can keep it, so perk prices need to be high. example: i had saved enough to get 262 and in middle of fight, everything started warping and screen froze. i lost perk points and plane. it was so frustrating that i just about deleted my account. so i want to see that when you earn a plane its put in your personal hanger.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Ta-152 shouldn't even be perked at all. It's just a German P-47.
which is pretty damn sad state of affairs