Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on December 15, 2001, 11:15:00 AM
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I was thinking about this, and I know that there are so many out there that there has got to be a wide cross section here.
My list, that occurs to me of hand, is as follows:
28 July 1940: Adolf 'Sailor" Malan vs. Werner 'Vati' Moelders
This is the only confirmed ace vs. ace fight of the Battle of Britain. Malan in his Spitfire MkIa fought a duel against Moelders' Bf109E-4 that ended with the German ace being wounded and withdrawing.
July 27 1942: George "Buzz" Beurling vs. Furio Niclot and Faliero Gelli
In this fight Buerling, flying his Spitfire MkVc, shot down the C.202 Folgores flown by both members of Italy's leading pair, killing the leading Italian ace Furio Niclot outright.
24 June 1944: Saburo Sakai vs. elements of VF-1, -2 and -50
Saburo Sakai survived a solo engagement in his A6M5 Model 52 Zero-Sen against a group of F6F-5 Hellcats, maybe as many as 15.
[ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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spit dweeb killed those poor 202
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Lazs vs his first bomber
I would just love to see how Lazs got shot down by the very first bomber that killed him. If you look at how he yells against bomber pilots these days, it must have been an incredibly emberassing kill.
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1 Sep 1942: Hans-Joachim Marseille's 19 victories. 9 were shot down in one sortie. Story is his armorer counted the ammo after the sortie and saw Jochen had used just 20 cannon shells and 60 mg rounds to down the planes. :eek: He later shot down 8 more in 2 sorties later the same day. This in a 109F against British Kittyhawks and Spits.
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snoopy vs the red baron
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Wittnessing them is of no interrest for me, I would had liked to be "in their shoes".
If I was Sakai, would I survived, would I killed more, less?
If I was against Sakai, would I be the one who would had shot him down?
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Something just fascinates me about dogfights where the odds are hopelessly against somebody and they go in anyway. Maybe its because, having played a game like Aces High you can get an inkling of how difficult it really was to take on superior numbers and survive.
I would have liked to have seen the fight where the Japanese ace (Muto?) in a N1k2 fought 12 Hellcats and shot down 4 before withdrawing.
Also, the fight where Major Shomo in his P-51 with one wingman attacked 12 Japanese fighters (Ki-61s)and one bomber, shooting down 6 of the fighters and one bomber. His wingman got 3 more of the fighters. The remaining fighters, although they still outnumbered the Americans 3-2 ran for their lives. Shomo got the Medal of Honor for that fight.
There was another fight where a Marine Corsair pilot, whose name I dont remember singelhandedly attacked a formation of Japanese planes whose numbers were approximately 50. He attacked not just once but after diving through and getting separated in the clouds he attacked them a second time. This attack was confirmed by a Army P-39 pilot that had been shot down in the area. The Marine pilot shot down 2 or 3 of the Japanese I think before breaking off. I think he won the Navy Cross for that fight.
Hans Joachim Marseille has a bunch of air battles that I would have liked to have seen. The one where he shot down 6 aircraft in 6 minutes using just his MGs since his cannon had jammed. Witnesses to that one said that if they hadnt seen it they wouldnt have believed it.
And finally, this one isnt WW2 but I would have liked to have seen the fight where the German teenaged ace, Werner Voss was killed. Voss was the 4th scoring ace of the German Air Force in WW1 when he entered his last fight. In the final battle he took on 7 British SE5 fighters in his Dr.1 Fokker. His 7 opponants were all aces (they finished the war with 187 kills between them) and he fought them for 10 minutes, putting bullets into all 7 British fighters before he went down with engine failure. He was shot dead as his plane glided towards the earth.
On second thought, I dont think I would have liked to have seen the fight where one of my favorite aces of all time was killed. :(
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I dunno...The classic dogfight I've always wanted to see would have been between Scrappy Doo and that big bulldog's little nephew in the Tweety & Sylvester cartoons.
SOB
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Robert Johnson meets Egon Mayer
details at 7:00
...
:D
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I would like to have seen the battle where Pappy Boyington led 26 F4U's to Kahili.The Japanese pilots refused to take off to meet them until Pappy himself taunted them on the radio.This got them up and the Black Sheep bounced/vultched them scoring 20 kills without a single loss!...Actually,I think I have seen this before.. :D :D :D
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Doesn't anyone else find it funny when, in war, people just become numbers instead of people?
My case in point:
This got them up and the Black Sheep bounced/vultched them scoring 20 kills without a single loss
I would have liked to have seen the fight where the Japanese ace (Muto?) in a N1k2 fought 12 Hellcats and shot down 4 before withdrawing.
1 Sep 1942: Hans-Joachim Marseille's 19 victories. 9 were shot down in one sortie.
I wonder if they forgot there were people in the planes they were "vulching" or just a number.
I'm not anti-war or anything...just making an observation.
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"I wonder if they forgot there were people in the planes they were "vulching" or just a number."
War is pure hell. Everyone is a number,everyone :(
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You shouldnt say you arent anti-war. Everybody should be anti-war. Im anti-war. I know what you meant though. I assume that you meant that you werent what most readily springs to mind when you think anti-war -- a mindless peacenik that believes that peace at any price is a good idea. Too often, the antiwar label is used by by people that are actually anti-USA. No sane person is "pro-war". However, any reasonable person knows that there are times when war is the only possible solution. Some things are worse than war and peace should not and will not be had at the cost of certain things. Believing this doesnt make you "pro-war" or anything of the sort.
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Cunningham vs Ritchie.
(Actually, would love to have seen the F-8 pilots who were guests of Olds' Wolfpack during Vietnam to "go over" ACM.)
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FDSS,you are the Devil's Advocate it seems.
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Nice thread!
Adolf Galland had a scrap with Robert Stanford Tuck in the Battle of Britain.
They shot down each others wingmen before disengaging.
When Tuck was later shot down and captured they met and found this out over dinner.
Galland is told to have said something like "That makes us even Stevens"
Always admired Galland to his gentelmanly behaviour towards the allied pilots, - wonder how many of them he took to dinner!
Must be able to dig up more of those stories, - if I do I'll add it.
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I would have liked to see the Marianas Turkey Shoot. Not just because of the sheer number of victories by the pilots flying my beloved Hellcat, but to see the intensity of the people involved when they saw the raids inbound on the radar and sent the CAP fighters to intercept them.
-math
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Battle of Britain -----
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Well with today's technology in movie making, maybe soon someone will make a good movie that will let us see some of these dogfights :D As long as there ins't a complicated soap opera love triangle in the movie, it should be ok :)
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Discod-
Yeah, and we could miss stupid lines like, "We can't outrun 'em, forget it. We'll have to outfly them!"
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Willi Reschke and Owen Mitchell. I'd also like to see the sortie that Marseille scored 8 kills in 10 minutes on.
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Maybe a hypothetical fight like 4 F8s and 4 F7s versus 40 zekes or something. Just imagine the look on those zeke pilots faces when that bearcat acclerates up at a 60angle. Maybe leave one of the Bearcats stripped so he can show off to the zekes let one on his tail then accelerate into the verticle and be gone.
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Erich Rudorffer's 13 kill sortie. Anyone got more info ?
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Hblair vs Drex
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Theres one that i would like to have whitnessed or even know the names of the american pilots who flew it.
Durring the Pearl Habor invasion i read that only 6 amercan planes made it off the ground. 2 of which were p51b pilots that over came many obsticles killiing 6 japanses fighters. I dont know if they lived or died or who they were. does anyone know ?
you can only emagine how out numbered they were, they get a big salute from me for sure.
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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Amon,
Take a look here:
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html)
As for odds, Vics of Spits rolling over and peeling off with a Tally Ho! into a hundred He.111's with top cover.....
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thank you seeker you are the dewd! :D
**EDIT** It was the p40, not the p51. just wanted to correct that.
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Am0n ]
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Gunter Rall vs Hub Zemke(56th Group)
12-5-1944
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Originally posted by Sancho
1 Sep 1942: Hans-Joachim Marseille's 19 victories. 9 were shot down in one sortie. Story is his armorer counted the ammo after the sortie and saw Jochen had used just 20 cannon shells and 60 mg rounds to down the planes. :eek: He later shot down 8 more in 2 sorties later the same day. This in a 109F against British Kittyhawks and Spits.
My personal favorite account. Not just because I'm a 109 guy either. Really! :D
Drano
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Wouldn't Marseille's 9 victory sortie be rather boring to watch?
The Brit's below manuvering in an outdated Luftbery circle and Marseille using BnZ tactics to bring down the poor blighters one at a time?
Granted his timing and shooting would be, at the very least, educational - but the dogfight itself would simply leave you yelling at the British to be more aggressive.
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When I watch gun camera films I can somehow seperate the images from reality and not usually think about the fact that a person is being killed. But I don't think I could stomach watching it in person.
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"Saburo Sakai survived a solo engagement in his A6M5 Model 52 Zero-Sen against a group of F6F-5 Hellcats, maybe as many as 15."
Below is an excerpt from Sakai's book, Samurai in which he describes the encounter.
http://www.banzaisquadron.com/samuari!.htm
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it it be true I would have loved to watch this
Lev Shestakov & Hans-Ulrich Rudel (http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/lev.html)
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Werner Voss is definatly one of my Favorite aces of all time, It was a sad story, and the pilots who downded him later said they wish he would have survived. Werner Voss was most likely the best pilot of WW1, almost always flying Solo. In that last fight, he not only put bullets into every SE5, but also dammaged most, if not all, quite bad.
Marseilles fights would have been nice to see aswell.
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I'll have to remember this bit from Samurai for later whines: "The fools in those planes were firing from a distance of 500 yards. Waste your ammunition, waste it, waste it, I cried. "
500 yards a waste hmmm?
;-)
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What i would want to see....
Finnish ace of aces Ilmari Juutilainen (92 confimed) versus the single Soviet pilot...
A lone Soviet fighter, La-5, appeared over a Finnish airfield and started circling it. Others stared at it, Ilmari Juutilainen ran to his Messerchmitt 109 G-6 and took off.
The single Soviet plane saw him and kept circling. The pilot let "Illu" climb to his altitude and then both pilots turned nose to nose.
An unbelievable long one to one combat started. No other aircraft of either side was around. It was one pilot against another. One was great best scoring Finnish pilot, whose plane had never been touched by enemy bullet. Another was an unknown pilot, but a master - an artist. They fought for 10 minutes... 20 minutes... Might have been even longer, maybe nearer 30 minutes. Both planes climbing and climbing, turning and burning, reaching 4 km, 5 km, 6 km, 7 km. It was only in the end when a sudden ray of sunshine appeared, which Illu used and managed to get a single burst which hit the Soviet fighter.
It began to fall down, uncontrollably. Illu followed it, hoping "bail out, bail out". But the Russian pilot did not.
That must have been a dogfight, if there ever was one pure 1 to 1.
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Another combat of different kind that would have been interesting for me personally, was told by mr. Olli Sarantola, a local pilot who flew Fiat G.50, Brewster and Bf 109 G-6. He described one flight in summer 1944, when his Brewster flight was in interception mission.
They came out of a large cloud. And found 120-150 Soviet bombers below, 40 La-5 fighter above. And four young pilots with old, war-worm Brewsters in between.
One pilot, don't remember the name outright, just pushed nose down, dove at the bombers, flamed one and continued dive towards cloud escaping. Others got away somehow.
I can only wonder at those men. How they continued to fly and fight, even when they knew they face same kind of odds every sortie.
Meeting next Friday a Me 109 G-6 pilot... Let's see what he was to tell.
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One I've always dreamed about is a duel that occured between Adolf Galland and "Big John" something. (Pisses me off that I can't remember his name.)
Galland was in a 190D-9 (long nosed FW) and Big John was in his P-38 (L I think).
Started at fairly high altitude, and Galland decided to dissengage. Big John followed him down, and they ended up IN an abandoned strip mine filled with water. Galland would go around and around in below the surrounding countryside, and Big John would "cloverleaf" his 38 in and out trying to get a shot.
The D9 started smoking a little after one hit, but John ran low on fuel and decided to head home. He broke left at the same time Galland broke right to run for home as well.
A few years after the war, Big John was at a convention of aces and was brought over and introduced to Galland. He then asked Galland if he had ever heard from one of his 190 buddies about this dogfight, and proceeded to tell the story.
He was so wrapped up in the story he didn't notice Galland go white, then red in the face.
Finally Galland exploded with "You somanasqueak!! You dom nearly keeled me that day!"
Ouch out
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Originally posted by Sancho
1 Sep 1942: Hans-Joachim Marseille's 19 victories. 9 were shot down in one sortie. Story is his armorer counted the ammo after the sortie and saw Jochen had used just 20 cannon shells and 60 mg rounds to down the planes. :eek: He later shot down 8 more in 2 sorties later the same day. This in a 109F against British Kittyhawks and Spits.
From all Marseille's kills I would love to see his last one, when he dueled for 20 minutes with spit. After this one he said: "It was a real ace. I have no idea how it will end next time".
Fariz
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I would like to know if Brown shot down the red baron. Always mystified me.
NUTTZ
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
I would like to know if Brown shot down the red baron. Always mystified me.
NUTTZ
Nope. One bullet only was found and its flightpath came from forward and below. Ground fire.