Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: WldThing on March 08, 2004, 10:42:45 PM
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Well here it is, i tried to find a fight where the cons were usually higher than me, as you will see in the film, they will be making dives on me, and i of course will reverse them. The trick is to make them think your vulnerable, then turning the tides.
Hope it helps!
P.S Ask any questions you may have.
Download Here! (http://www.332nd.org/dogs/forHIM/Wldthing.ahf)
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Nice film
Haven't ever seen so many from 1 squad lay down their lives so successfully against 1 foe
had to laugh at the one who gave up in planes and upped a Flak to try to shoot u. ( his thought process musta been - let's see the bastard barrel roll under this one) hehe
very tidy work
Redd
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:)
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O.K. How many times did he shoot me?
Mud:(
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you can find a few more examples here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111191
which list seeker? the one to recruit or to gang up on?
:p
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Nice shooting, but I was hoping for something other than a Spit film. :)
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
Nice shooting, but I was hoping for something other than a Spit film. :)
Well recording was on accidently, ill try to dig up a film in my 51 :D
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Originally posted by Shane
which list seeker? the one to recruit or to gang up on?
:p
You mean you have two lists? :)
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those i shoot down.
those i shoot down and laugh at them about it.
:D
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Hey Wild,
Are those the standard sounds you're using?
Mud
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Originally posted by Muddie
Hey Wild,
Are those the standard sounds you're using?
Mud
Yes... Except the stall sound, the stall sound is the 2nd Stall Sound in the Mitsu Sound collection.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Yes... Except the stall sound, the stall sound is the 2nd Stall Sound in the Mitsu Sound collection.
I don't think Muddie can hear your sounds, WldThing, if he doesn't have the sound files installed on his own computer. :confused: :confused:
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WTG Wildthing!
Just watched your film...that was some impressive flyen against my squaddies - all of whom are no slouches.
questions:
1 How were you able to maintain your speed while pulling hi g's?
2. How much of that time were you blacked out?
3 You available for some training time in the TA DA?
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Originally posted by DMax
WTG Wildthing!
Just watched your film...that was some impressive flyen against my squaddies - all of whom are no slouches.
questions:
1 How were you able to maintain your speed while pulling hi g's?
2. How much of that time were you blacked out?
3 You available for some training time in the TA DA?
Thanks :)
1. There is no such thing as maintaining your speed in reversals such as those, the point is to reverse as fast as you can before the guy can zoom up again. The faster you reverse the closer you will be on his 6. If i went easy on reversals all of those guys would be 600-700 out after the reversals, which of course wouldnt work.
2. I only black out when i pull up, i never black out when im doing the barrel roll, which of course helps me keep my eye on him. And i have to pull so hard when i go vertical just for him to not get a shot on me. If he does, im pretty much dead meat.
3. Im usually on during evenings, EST :)
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4. One more thing, to not ever fall for a reversal like this, never climb after you make your zoom attack. ALways go level and after 700-800 you can start pulling back up. You will be catching the reverser of guard.
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WldThing
wow what a sortie,very informative.Still trying to process what i saw :) .Next time Im over that way Ill stop in and watch you wreak havoc in person ;) Great post thanks Wldting
Dlitz
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I dunno, the sounds are different than when I'm flying MA. I'll have to do some research. I liked these (I'm running the soundpack btw).
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When did you make that film ?..One of my squaddies landed a Squad medal,and I need to make sure he gets it.
Nice use of guns, And in a Spit no less...very impressive
Falcon
31st Bomber Barons (Heavy)
Attack Wing
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a most excellent film! still trying to master that manuever. My timming is off i think. maybe you could show me in the DA sometime?:cool:
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Wldthing I'm just curious if I saw that right. When they begin there attack run you start to slowly turn slight nose down and away. Once they've gotten close you do a lag roll back across there flight path. Once at the top acquire target, go to roll wings level then nose up on to them correct.
I'm assuming your forcing them to get there nose around into a lead pursuit position or maybe even letting them think they have a lead pursuit/high deflection opportunity. Then once they are just about within firing range you pull slightly harder to bring them to lag pursuit and start the barrell roll back across there flight path right?
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pretty much. it's all in the timing and relative speeds.
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I use the same move my self and it works 99% of the times, possibly more, the problem is when you're up against a good pilot who may expect it. He will either extend before going up, thus making you blow some extra during the atempted setup or he may actually kill you if your barrel roll is too *tight* (if you don't pull hard enough on the stick while rolling).
Like I said, use it very often but sometimes it may fail. Good post Wld.
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ok man i would realy like it if sometime you could take me to the da and show me some of this stuff i would realy appreciate it. and that was some of the best flyin i have ever seen:D
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Hit me up in the MA when you see me :)
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I will do that, i have been doing alot of pratricing in the spit IX and i think i figured out how u did it but i jus cant kep the enemy in my sights:mad:
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why is it in the forHIM directory?
I'm pretty sure I know what you were doing..I'll get the film when I get home just cause I want to see the carnage and I'm wondering if I was even around.
you're right, those were very smooth reversals..
wish I'd been there...
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Kanth,
I'm hosting the film for Wldthing. Its in my upload space on our website. That's why it has "forHIM" in the link.
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Well, that's nice of you. And thank you for the reply :)
Originally posted by dfl8rms
Kanth,
I'm hosting the film for Wldthing. Its in my upload space on our website. That's why it has "forHIM" in the link.
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Wildthing when i try to pull up its like they know i am doing that and they pop me one in the back. What am i doing wrong???
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I'll probably get blasted for this, but if the guy behind you is controlling throttle and he has his closure under control, that reversal isn't going to work. The basic fact is, if someone is on your 6 and has a little e on you, you are defensive, and unless they screw up, you should lose. Now WT or any other ace might see the guy on his six is controlling closure and go into his bag of tricks for something else, but that one aint gonna work. Still going into his bags of tricks reiterates he is DEFENSIVE. The reversal shown depends on you overshooting - if you dont - they're dead if you have any aim. Now if he is really good you migh never get shot to kill him, but there is no way he should win a fight given that starting position. At most "nice dodge" and go about your bussiness. Anything else is pilot error and more what YOU did than he did.
In short, I dont think you should be overly concerned the reversal doesn't work for you. Its a bad position to be in, and chances are you've made many errors to get into that position. It would be easier to correct those errors than hope to pull a 1 in 50 reversal that depends on the other pilot screwing up.
Its like scissoring - if you are spending a lot of time trying to scissors people, you're screwing up early, for the simple fact a scissors is a defensive move. So what do I do? Try to master scissoring or try to be on the defensive less? Whats easier?
If people on the defensive are out scissoring me, do I learn how to fly it better or learn how to control closure and shoot better?
Its not a scissors unless you miss.
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... I look at someone starting out high and on my 6 as an even fight. They aren't going to be able to kill me without at least giving up that initial slt and speed advantage, and if I can force a rolling scissors while they are giving up that advantage.. unless they can do it better than I can I'm going to win.
Now, in the MA that doesn't nescesarily hold true, since the first guy is usually just trying to pin you down so the 2nd through 5th guys can take easier shots at you, but in a 1v1 it is not always true that starting out higher and faster is an advantage.
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I'm not blasting you Etch, but I am with Urchin here, I welcome the higher bogey most times, knowing I can force an overshoot or most times getting them on the defensive (read that you are defensive visually setting them up) I can quickly gain the offensive in a scissors or rolling scissors.
WldThing is actually in the offensive, He has looked 2 or 3 steps ahead and knows where the enemy is going to come up into his guns solution. It just looks like he is or might be in a defensive posture.
That's my take anyway.
edited: I would suggest for all sim flyers to tweak their scissoring skills to the best they can, it's easy to fly fast, attack fast and zoom on. It's totally different world to go from 1 end of the flight envelope( fast) to the other end(slow) and still know how to control the particular plane you are flying.
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Urchin is right. I welcome someone higher and faster on my long six. This is how I prefer to set up fights, even moreso than merging nose-to-nose. Sure, you should lose in such a situation, but isn't that the fun of it? If you lose... so what? He had energy and altitude. On the other hand, if you win... you earned it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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One thought though, just ocurred to me. I was thinking maybe with the viewing of this post on Reversals, alot of people are starting to anticipate this move/reversal and cut throttle. Either that or you aren't breaking at the right time jetb123. Timing is everything and with the new enemy icon/counter in AH2 you going to have to visualy guess when to break on plane shape and not by the counter.
Still is fun though, as Leviathn put it.
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The move Wldthg does int he film depends on a good closure rate. Making a turn to get your angle, then timing the move to get your guns as he over shoots.
If on the other hand as Etch says you have some one closeing at a slower rate...controlling the closure...then the move will be very difficult to pull off. Wldtng I'm sure would still get off a great shot, but for us average jocks it won't work.
So Jet, watch the closure, if its pretty strong, cut to one side or the other in a tightening turn, and as they get to 500 or so break the other way in a barrel roll, and light him up as he over shoots:)
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>>Urchin is right. I welcome someone higher and faster on my long six<<
What I'm talking about is the pilot who was high, faster on your long 6 (a small adavantage) controlling closure till he his only slightly faster and on your close 6 (a large advantage) I dont believe for a second I can do this on any regular basis, but thats what I'm trying to get better at. I figure if I wind up in a scissors, I screwed up earlier either by allowing someone close on my six or by not wasting the plane that was 200 yards in front of me.
And I also understand the point of the fun aspect of the game. It would be boring to fly safe in MA. And I do try to get better a flying the scissors, but if I'm the one that starts it, I know I screwed up and am now hoping the other guy will screw up.
Everything I've read about it calls it a last ditch effort to survive. I just don't get overly concerned if it doesn't work - it shouldn't work if the other plane is flown well.
Edit: also, I thought about this after writing that other post. A lot of times, a high plane will make a half hearted 600 mph pass at a lower slower plane. If I'm the lower slower plane, I usually just try to side step them. I guess WT is going the extra mile and killing them :D My aim is too pitiful for that :)
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I understand where ya coming from Etch, really.
but in reading what you typed:
I figure if I wind up in a scissors, I screwed up earlier either by allowing someone close on my six or by not wasting the plane that was 200 yards in front of me.
and this:
And I do try to get better a flying the scissors, but if I'm the one that starts it, I know I screwed up and am now hoping the other guy will screw up.
Try changing your scope of thinking first: Don't believe everything you read per word go beyond basic's here. I always and probably never will stop with the attitude that I can beat anything I come up against, I am positive in my mind that I am going to be the victor in every incounter ( that means 1 vs 1 or 2 on me) I don't even rattle much if I hear a ping or 2 and don't freak about it, this thought with constant practice makes me fly better. I am not saying I am any better than the next guy here, but in my mind in a dogfight I am confident I can beat the opponent wether I do or don't. If I don't I take it as a grain of salt ( with a learning experience built in ) and try again.
Man do I wish I could of stayed in my 20's playing online sims, I miss them good fights and love the memories when I ponder on them.
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>>WldThing is actually in the offensive, He has looked 2 or 3 steps ahead and knows where the enemy is going to come up into his guns solution. It just looks like he is or might be in a defensive posture. <<
I'm mostly refering to an earlier film WT posted where he had like 6 planes zoomiing his spit V. Its the same move, but a different film. In that film he's defensive in every sense of the word. Had one of those pilots parked 200 yards off his 6, his game was up - at least it looks like to me. Still its an amazing film, but I doubt even he believes that position is a recipe for success.
Edit: I've bumped up the thread with the film I'm talking about.
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>> I don't even rattle much if I hear a ping or 2 and don't freak about it, this thought with constant practice makes me fly better. I am not saying I am any better than the next guy here, but in my mind in a dogfight I am confident I can beat the opponent wether I do or don't.<<
That aint no lie TC, I've studied your films also. They need to call you Timex. You take a licking and kill them :) And yours is in a plane thats a lot harder to maneuver - f4u. I like the call the other night- "I'm leaking oil, half my left wing and a stbilizer. Ill be landing 48"
TIMEX!
And I do try to stay mentaly in a fight till the end. The stuff I'm saying here is more of things I think about when deciding what to practice. I look at all the different reasons that can lead up to a scissors. Its like a big funnel that meets at the end in a scissors. Some reasons have only to do with fun - everyone is flying 30k, outnumbered etc. Others are blatant pilot errors. If I have 1/2 hour to fly and I wind up in a scissors at the nearest furball, it's different than if I've alted for 15 minutes and wound up in a scissors in a 1 vs 1 fight.
In the 1 vs 1 fight, I might actually mentaly lose it, because I'd be thinking I've been scoping the situation for 15 minutes and have wound up fighting to pull lag pursuit. The furball wouldn't bother me as its pretty much expected to wind up defensive.
I appreciate the help and hope the posts didn't seem arrogant or "know-it-all." Heck, eveyone knows I'm newbie :D
Edit: I guess what I'm not saying clearly, is I think its a screwup if one winds up in a scissors unexpectedly. Luring a plane into a scissors where you would have the upperhand, is something else.
I guess its a calculated risk, because you have to give the other plane a shot opportunity to get into a scissors, or you have to miss a shot opportunity. Its like when it first starts you look in the up view and say" if he aint there I am in so much trouble." Well with WT's move when he looks in that upside view, if the plane aint there, I think he's in deep doodoo.
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Originally posted by TC
>>WldThing is actually in the offensive, He has looked 2 or 3 steps ahead and knows where the enemy is going to come up into his guns solution. It just looks like he is or might be in a defensive posture. <<
Etch Wrote:I'm mostly refering to an earlier film WT posted where he had like 6 planes zoomiing his spit V. Its the same move, but a different film. In that film he's defensive in every sense of the word. Had one of those pilots parked 200 yards off his 6, his game was up - at least it looks like to me. Still its an amazing film, but I doubt even he believes that position is a recipe for success.
WldThing wrote:The trick is to make them think your vulnerable, then turning the tides.
I should have said he is in the offensive
"mentally" by being 2 to 3 steps ahead of where he currently is, did I say that right? He is making his self look defensive but is actually baiting them.
I would assume (uhoh messing up again by assuming) WldThing knows that this will not work solidly 10 out 10 times everytime. especially if he starts to be bounced by more than 2 planes at the same time. I tryed looking for the other film #137 but only have seen the film labeled WldThing.ahf
if you could send me the other film by email ( if it is different from the one where he is being bounced by some other Damned! )
I am with you though that if an opponent used throttle control and parked on his "6" 200 or 400 back that he stood a good chance of going down.
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I sent it to you TC.
You'll se that the plane that does eventually smoke him, parks on his six. Its a 51 and wt wiggles out of it, but it was nothing like the stuff before with everyone overshooting.
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If some1 leads nose down when you attack from his 6....you pull nose level...wing over and let em do his fancy flying....and kill his prettythang
rule #1......when on top of enme plane....STAY ON TOP u dumbprettythang
reversals will kill you cause your dumb and you gave up your advantage....
now if you don't have time to pull level on top of him and you got to go thru with attack.....If he turns nose down to right.....turn left DUMBprettythang....make a big loop(UP) and come straight down on that fancy flyer..... :rofl
nice film thing
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Originally posted by SLO
If some1 leads nose down when you attack from his 6....you pull nose level...wing over and let em do his fancy flying....and kill his prettythang
rule #1......when on top of enme plane....STAY ON TOP u dumbprettythang
WT Rule:
Even an experienced pilot will get Kill Hungry, especially if he knows who he is fighting..
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I am with you though that if an opponent used throttle control and parked on his "6" 200 or 400 back that he stood a good chance of going down.
Well you have to figure, knowing what to do in different situations makes a good pilot. I wouldnt pull of a same reversal if the opponent was 400 of my 6. Now granted, it can be very difficult to shake a very experienced player off your 6 at that yardage, but if you know what your doing everything is possible..
Plus do you really ever want to put yourself in that spot where the con is 200-400 off your 6? Be agressive from the start..
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Originally posted by WldThing
Well you have to figure, knowing what to do in different situations makes a good pilot. I wouldnt pull of a same reversal if the opponent was 400 of my 6. Now granted, it can be very difficult to shake a very experienced player off your 6 at that yardage, but if you know what your doing everything is possible..
Plus do you really ever want to put yourself in that spot where the con is 200-400 off your 6? Be agressive from the start..
:) WT, I wouldn't think you would pull same reversal, and I figured you wouldn't let an oponent get that close with out doing something to throw him off, regardless of what experience he may have.
And no, I think no one would ever want to jeopardize their 6 with a close range like that, I said you stood a good chance IF it happened, of going down...I didn;t say you would........:D :D
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the key jetb is to continue to track your enemy's e-state during closure. You'll see some guys get cagey about an overshoot and start throt control...some are so conscious of it you'll actually see them slipping the plane on their attack.
Since e-state dicates advantage this is your cue to abandon the setup for some sort of displacement roll and immediately go offensive for angles.
anything that's forcing a high-closure shot around your 3/9 line is good news they won't have the juice to try and get back on top anymore.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I always and probably never will stop with the attitude that I can beat anything I come up against, I am positive in my mind that I am going to be the victor in every incounter ( that means 1 vs 1 or 2 on me) I don't even rattle much if I hear a ping or 2 and don't freak about it, this thought with constant practice makes me fly better. I am not saying I am any better than the next guy here, but in my mind in a dogfight I am confident I can beat the opponent wether I do or don't. If I don't I take it as a grain of salt ( with a learning experience built in ) and try again.
Excellant quote TC. It's a mindset. It's ALWAYS practice. Always working it. AHII has had some wonderful "practice" areas the last few nights. Just no holds barred fighting. There is nothing better.
With that atitude the game is so much fun. You win some, you lose some but the experience and fun from the exercise is ALWAYS worth the effort.
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>>Plus do you really ever want to put yourself in that spot where the con is 200-400 off your 6? Be agressive from the start..<<
Thank you. That was my major point when jet re uppped this thread. Its not a great position to be in and he seemed concerned it wasn't working. On any given day it MIGHT work and if nothing else is available - hell yea use it. Cut your throttle drop your your gear, drop those flaps , pull some g's, and they might overshoot - just don't count on it. But my point was don't seek that position unless you are just "working on stuff."
Again, excellent flying and excellent gunnery WT. My post was against the idea that it was a gauranteed move or somehow an *attack*
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not all stalking is done from high 6.
:aok
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just would like to ask what is better plane for the scissors
A. plane with good roll like the 190 F4U P47
B.a plane with good turnrate and so so Roll
iv just tryed the scissors on spitfires in a 190a-5 and stalled and ended up die-ing
because the plane could not maintain speed in the scissors
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Roll- fw's have great roll rates at very slow speeds. But the spit can fly slower than a FW, but has a sluggish roll at slow speeds. But if you have any alt at all, you should be able to to accelerate away from the spit staying behind you, as fw's accelorate faster than spits especially in a gentle dive. I know FW's do it to me all the time :D The great thing is if you scissors and accelerate away from a spit, they'll probably be angry enough to chase you into a hoard of your friends or an ack. I know I do that all the time too :) I'm just a newbie but fly spits almost exclusively. At very slow speeds, the spit will never match the roll rate of a fw and at very fast speeds it wont either. At 240 or so, the the fw still has a roll advantage, but it doesn't seem as extreme. So I guess the real danger zone for the fw is a close spit with speeds around 240. If he can get away before the spit gets to 240 or throttles down to 240 (or so), the spit should never come close to matching his direction changes.
240 might be high but I never look at the guage in a fight. If I aint blacking out and am rolling sluggishly, I figure I'm below corner speed. If I am blacking out I figure above corner speed.
read this:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html
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Originally posted by simshell
just would like to ask what is better plane for the scissors
A. plane with good roll like the 190 F4U P47
B.a plane with good turnrate and so so Roll
iv just tryed the scissors on spitfires in a 190a-5 and stalled and ended up die-ing
because the plane could not maintain speed in the scissors
it depends on speed.
If you start the scissor fight in high speeds, the roll rate and deceleration are most important to create the overshoot. Here FW, hogs and jugs are very good.
If the overshoot did not happen by the time the speed is lost (or it was slow to begin with) eventually the plane able to fly slower will have the upper hand. Here Spits, F6Fs, P38 are good planes.
So, FW will be great for the first move, but if you don't suprise the bandit you are screwed. F4Us have good low speed handeling, but you need to watch out of the stall. Jugs have a very gentle stall but are fat pigs when slow.
So it's down to knowing your plane's and you nme plane's little quirks and exploiting them.
Bozon
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Since I cancelled my accoun tto AH I've been flying Il2FB offline alot. I've noticed that they've programmed the manuver WT's talking about into the opponent's plane. When you get on their 6 they always slow down to near stall speed so you really have to be on your toes not to fly by. If you do they'll immediately roll toward you. usually, though, the AI has them so slow that they can't get a good shot at you before you've zoomed away out of range.
Just an observation I thought was interesting.
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Hey Wldthing.........I haven't found your film.
Where could I download it ?
Thx.
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It's easy to kill WT & Levi, if the timing is right,
In AH2 beta, one night I logged in and lo and behold, WT was a Knit, Levi was one of the other insignificant countryfolk, So I upped a SpitV, knowing the weeds were were I would find these two purse slapping each other and headed for the dar bar....
I slide through the trees avoiding the new ack squirrels HT has implemented into the game, and coming round the mountain with my 6 white horses I see WT in his Spit doing his washing machine/Tumble dryer moves with another Red flavored Spit, so I stay low knowing that the cheat factor has increased because the icons are beneath my plane and I am practically invisible to the enme spit, but watching carefully for the squirrels that reach out for your wings as you fly past the trees.... Seeing that WT is in a little bit of a disadvantage, I as a true loyal countryman decide I must save him... knowing my limited ability is a factor I open up about 800 out as I fly through the engagement, whacking the Red spit and taking his tail off, I look back as somehow WT has actually turned back to shoot the red spit and instead has connected well with my wing roots, I look down at the text bar and I see the System declare proudly That I, yes NwBie, have kilt Levi, (I am pretty sure I heard trumpets and such) but I digress, sadly WT was obviously not paying close attention and got killshot, so after his congratulatory salute, (involved some 4 letter words of which I figured was some sort of slang for -Thank you, u saved my ***, you are my hero, or such),
So in one fell swoop I kilt both Levi and WT, so like I said, it doesn't require all that much skill, just unbelievable timing :)
BTW: Still one of the most fun nights I had in AH with you guys
Nwbie
:lol
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:rofl
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i get a url not found message
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this film is in AH1 format, it will not work unless you still have AH1 loaded or you load up AH1.
alot of people have this film if you still want it, they prob could email it to you, or upload it somewhere.
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meddog -- I removed it from the 332nd's site during site cleanup. I will search the harddrives and/or my backups and see if I can get you a copy.