Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jase on February 25, 2000, 11:00:00 AM
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Were HO's used frequently in WW2 by fighters? Or were they considered to risky. I was just curious, thx
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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"
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It was a desired tactic by the LW against bomber formations, this in turn generated the B17G, with more guns in the nose.
Not sure about fighters, the many books that I've read, the HO was a 'last ditch effort to kill the enemy'.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-25-2000).]
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About fighters, take a look: http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-2.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-2.htm)
"When asked about his tactics he ( Paul Murphy of the 5th AF's 80th FS of the 8th FG ) replied, "We used the P-38 to its best advantage in one-pass shoot outs. We'd try to force 'em into head-ons cause they'd break or our firepower would tell on 'em and they'd just disintegrate. Except for the Tony. It was a more substantial airplane."
Gramma
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Jase they were, a bit. I beleive in RL most pilots tried to avoid the HO because it was similar to "playing chicken". Someone WAS going to die.
The Axis pilots found that it as the best method against the B17's, P-38 pilots used it alot against the un armored Japanese planes as did P-47 and FW190 pilots against thier foes.
It occurs here in AH because there is no fear of death. HO's suck imo. I DO try to avoid them when I can.
And at the same time if I can't then I try to offer the bogy closing the same dish of lead they are trying to hand me. The ZOOM feature sure makes that easier.
The HO's that plain make my blood boil are the ones that occur to me as I am in a turn fight with a bogy or two and I'm trying to get a guns solution to thier six (or them to mine) but some jack prettythang decides to keep zooming thru the furball trying to HO people (or me in this case) for the kill. Skill in that? None at all. But it next to impossible to avoid those folks who use HO's as a tactic in those situations.
(um, ramble mode=off)
-Westy
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The famed "Thach Weave" used pairs of Wilcats to take alternating head-on passes on the more maneuverable but lightly armored Japanese Zeros.
Later in the war the Japanese were said to reverse this tactic when they couldn't catch the faster American airplanes for the traditional "six" shot. Instead of being able to maneuver to the flank of the American flights, they only had time to force a head on merge.
There are many great sequences from the gun camera film/video tapes (now widely available) that demonstrate how devastating head on passes could be.
MiG
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 02-25-2000).]
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Westy,
The situation you describe is NOT a head-on. A head-on is when the bogies are merging nose-to-nose and go for the shot by flying straight at the attacker. In the case you mention, the attacker is watching you turning with his buddies in a furball, and executes a BnZ attack. He's gonna try a deflection or snapshot at you, no matter what your angle to him. If you happen to turn your front quarter toward him he's still gonna press the shot if you are not very threatening to him. If you let him, he'd rather shoot you in the ass, I guarantee.
If you choose to turn and burn, don't be pissed because somebody comes and BnZ's ya out of the sky. It's the nature of the beast. How much skill it takes is not the issue, the guy BnZ ing the furball is playing it safer than you TnB types and likely has better SA than you do. He also likely has a plane not suited to getting into a TnB engagement, so don't expect him to. Don't blame him because you are a nice low and slow turning target.
Or should I say "don't blame me". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-25-2000).]
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Another example in the following link;
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-2.htm (http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-2.htm)
Look at Mihaly "Mike" Karotsonyi's comments regarding head-ons.
MiG
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 02-25-2000).]
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Many times in a furball the HO that I make are more to get someone off of one of my guys 6. Usually not looking for a kill but to divert and give my teammate a chance to extend.
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Milo
"A MiG on your 6 is better than no MiG at all"
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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kThe endless HO,s in AH are due mostly to the range of the guns. I had a p51 start fireing at me from d1.5. I just had time to think, this must be a newbi, when my wing tip came off. A big lag no doubt, but AH is becomeing more of a line test than a flight sim. Its simple. If you have a better connect. You get the kill message.
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Hmm that's unfortunate TT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I understand HiTech not wanting to adjust the damage model for decrease HO damage, but with variables like lag which are out of our control I think it would improve sim enjoyment. At least someone with a better connect would have to get on your six or get a snap shot off for a kill instead of using the HO lag move. I was just wondering, because virtually ever main arena fight here involes an constant HO's. I was just wondering if that was the way it was in WW2, every damn fight was just a HO fest like here. If it wasn't then, then it should not be now. The argument that "reality would be decreased with decreased damage from HO's" doesn't hold water IMO. The reality was in WW2 no one had little green or red icons to tell them who was who. I thought the goal of AH was to try and simulate as close as possible a real ww2 flight setting, where the planes abilities dictated tactics. If it was one HO after another in WW2, then I stand correted. If it was not, then sim-play should be adjusted to bring our fights more into line with the way fights REALLY were. I do love AH, and am not bashing it at all. It is the best sim out there, period. I would just like to fly one flight that was not HO after HO after HO.
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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"
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Show me one film that illustrates this TT. I'm betting you can't. Go to my site and follow the links under the Lag discussion, specifically the one to Hoof's page.
The ammount of disparity in the distance is a function of the closure rate as well. So if you are going HO and both are fast, the difference is going to be MUCH greater, so start your evasives earlier. I start mine at D1.2 in most HO situations, but a high speed one I would start earlier.
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(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-25-2000).]
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Jase.
I think it was quite common. I have read accounts of whole squadrons of spitfires going for the HO. I dont see how reducing the leathality will lessen the frequency though.. might it not have the opisit effect...
A good step I think is making the who killed who first stuff go away. HO gives a person in a 30% situation a 50% chance.. if it gave them a 5 % chance they would not adopt it as much...What really gets me is when the guys in the 80% favorible situation take the 50% chance....what are they thinking....
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Aw, Jase.... what about our training arena excursions? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I do try to avoid head ons because they are risky .. but sometimes they are your only feasible tactic...
YOu have a bogie on your 6 who is catching up and you know you can't turn with it (Happens often for F4U) -> i try to get into a head on merge BEFORE he is so close that he'll turn with me and get's saddled up .. but well during this headon i'm usually trying to avoide a *direct* headon.
BUT
The Headons i consider as dweebish are those when a more manouverable plane that has the E advantage over you just abbrels right into your face.. i just can't understand those...
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(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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Hehe Kieren, after the standard Immel there is almost no way to avoid a HO on either side. The only way around it is to lesson the lethality of the HO shot. I and most of the guys I train with now turn off cannons to reduce the damage of the HO. The best way to kill someone spit to spit with only 303's is to actually outturn them and get on their six. Imagine that concept..Huh. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"
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Real World:
I'm sure there was some HOing, but I doubt many of the guys who tried it lived long lives! It's a 50-50 proposition at best, and when you add in the risk of collision I think that the self-preservation instinct kept the amount of HO-ing to a minimum.
AH World:
Lephturn is right on the money about when to start anti-HO measures. You've gotta figure in net lag. 1.2K is a minimum for a co-alt merge. My favorite is to decoy low then do a 3-g pull back to vertical. 90% of the time I end up above and behind them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pongo wrote:
I dont see how reducing the leathality will lessen the frequency though.. might it not have the opisit effect...
In WB we have had some huge fluctuations in the gunnery model over the last year, and during periods of weak guns there was definitely less HO-ing. With weaker guns, your probability of scoring a kill goes down, but your probability of death by collision increases because you must wait even longer to start firing. So the net effect is to reduce ones kill/death ratio in HO situations.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 02-25-2000).]
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Originally posted by Jase:
The reality was in WW2 no one had little green or red icons to tell them who was who.
In the cases of the P-38's or F4U's vs. any Japanese fighter (or German aircraft against multi engined bombers), I'd say the airplane's silhouette from a head on aspect was as good as having an icon. Hence the higher percentage of reported head-on engagements from the Pacific theater and the many head-ons against Allied bomber streams.
If it was one HO after another in WW2, then I stand correted. If it was not, then sim-play should be adjusted to bring our fights more into line with the way fights REALLY were.
The vast majority of kills (documented somewhere between 70-80%) occured without the target knowing he was being attacked. They weren't fights so much as hit and runs. How do you simulate that and make it the sim playable for everyone? If, eight out of ten times you simply blew up with no warning, this wouldn't be too much fun for anyone.
Almost every single air combat tactician I've read or studied with states that once an enemy airplane is spotted to be attacking, the first thing you do is to turn and face the attack. This almost necessitates that you perform some kind of maneuver to put you head on with the attacker, unless you are already heading toward them. Most survivors avoided the head on shot by introducing some form of lateral or vertical seperation. (Hristo is great at this here in AH, for instance.) That also forced the attacking plane to make at least a 180 degree turn to re-engage giving the defending pilot time to exit the combat or to initiate his own attack. If both turned 180 degrees, they had another front aspect shot regardless of the directections turned - another head-on. Dogfighting in the visual air combat arena (which AH seems to be designed as) often required flying head on toward the enemy whether it was WW1, WW2, Korea; all the way up to current times.
Take away or reduce damage from head on shots and you end up with a Brand A environment: virtually no chance of achieving a hit even though your tracers are going right through the other airplane. Would sure make our job of facing any gunner in a bomber a LOT easier though! All he has are essentially head on shots on an attacking airplane.
MiG
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Now, now... I flew some off types against your spit too... did ok in the 109 going for alt, though I didn't have the guns to finish it quickly enough.
I didn't go for immelman everytime either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I did find it was the best thing to do Spit vs Spit.
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Jase;
I struggled with this quite alot after coming from AW. I had to rewrite my tactics book on how to accomplish lead turns.
I must say that I really detest the "Frontal Plate Armor" of planes in AW. Lead is lead, and a plane is fragile from about any angle that it is shot at from.
Since playing AH, I have learned how to avoid HO's. In fact the more the NME tries for the HO, often times the easier they are to avoid.
I also realize now that there is a difference between a HO and a "Front Quarter Shot" (FQS).
I consider it to be a HO, if there is a relatively long set up time. IE Both planes start lining up for shots at about d4k to d6k, with no attempts by either to avoid the HO.
A FQS can be made any time. Basically they occur where plane A has a shot at the front quarter of plane B. But plane B does not have a shot at plane A due to the deflection angle.
Many times FQS's seem or are set up like HO's, but they are not the same. They often occur after merge reversials or during dogfights. Often very little deflection, seperates the HO from the FQS.
Remember, the object is shoot down your opponent. There are no grandious rules on how that must be accomplished.
BTW; I also enjoyed tangling with you in the TA. I can learn alot from watching your turning ability. You are way above and out of my league.
<Salute>
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer
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Mig Eater you make a good point about the large ratio of kills being "unexpected". That is something I did not consider. I suppose I will, like all other aw vets get use to the different tactics here in time. As I said before, this is still the best Sim out there, and hands down the best community. Thanks all for you comments and insight.
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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"
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Leph. Who the heck starts fireing at 1500yrds. And what are the chances of me haveing film running when it does happen. I would guess the odds are slim to none, that I could have captured this on film.
I dont much care if you belive me BTW. Who are you.
It didnt take long for the proprietary attuded to develope.
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In AH I don't think a HO is that tuff to avoid, provided you are relatively close to the corner speed for your aircraft (and fairly close to "in trim," but let's not get into that can of worms (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ). It's just not that hard to make the "average" guy miss you. If the guy is one of the truly good, however, and going for the HO, it might be the day "the bear eats you."
If you are well below corner and have no way to get to it quickly (altitude), then you may have to accept the 50/50 proposition of the HO. No point in making it risk-free for the attacker if you're probably going to die anyway, IMHO.
As far as altering the sim programming to decrease leathality or up the frontal armor, I'd be against it. This won't surprise many people, I suspect. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Model the stuff as accurately as you can. That should be the goal.
If the gaming environment then dictates tactics that are different from RL WW2, then (assuming you are TRYING to duplicate WW2, which we are not) that is another problem entirely. Now you are dealing with gameplay. You can adjust gameplay to bring it closer to WW2 without affecting the realism of the flight/guns/damage models.
Just my .01
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Toad. you make very good points. But jase is right also. It is just one HO after another. Something is incourageing people to do this.
During the beta. The P51 was an HO monster. They ajusted this, without loseing its guns impact at other angles. I would suggest doing the same thing to all the planes.
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My point, TT, is that he didn't start firing at D1.5 at all. Not on his end anyway, it just can look that way on your end due to net lag. Who knows, maybe he did start firing WAY out, much further than that. Maybe he didn't start firing until later, but there was some connection issue there.
I'm sorry if I came off as... I don't know.. whatever you took me as meaning. I meant no disrespect. Sorry, I should have explained what I meant in more detail in that post, I was too brief and it came off badly. I'll try to explain in more detail. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that to me you are using an unlucky or anomalous occurence and trying to prove a point based on it.
I understand it is very unlikely that you would have filmed this particular event. The point I am trying to make is that luck and ballistics mean that a few kills will happen that don't look to be "right", or at least seem to be strange. Combine this with the effects of lag and sometimes things can look quite weird. The reason I keep asking for film, is that when something odd happens, perception plays a big role in it. If we can all see it, it really helps. If it's not something that happens regularly enough to actually be filmed, then it's really not valid to try and use it to evaluate the modelling, IMHO. By asking for someone to film it, we get to see if this happens enough to base any opinions on, or if it was just a "lucky shot" for example.
If you are ever interested in testing some of these issues, I'd be interested in helping. Drop me an email and we can hook up in the training arena and see what we can shake out by testing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-26-2000).]
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TT and all,
How many times have you seen "How do I start the engine?" or "I can't take off!" in the message buffer? These guys are not ACM experts. What would you expect? A guy that can barely fly sees a plane coming his way, he points right at him and starts blazing away! HO!
Saw the very same thing in early WB. As the community matures and the new pilots learn the ACM skills HO's will decrease significantly. And yes I hate them too, but they are a good indicator of the skill level of your opponent. I usually see the HOer as an easy kill.
Sharky
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You can run, but you just die tired.
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OK, I won't pretend to be "Mr History", but I'll say this (with all due respect to my great friend Lephturn).
Long Range Gunnery is still too easy in AH... For whatever reason. For me, I'd prefer reducing the fidelity of the range counter (so we don't have a perfect laser range finder), and reduce hit sprites at range. That'd help I think.
I was killed by a spray from an Uber-hog with my FE showing him at 1.1K! Now, he calimed that it was 700 yards on his FE (which might be true, but seems AWEFUL large, considering he was not closing, or closing only slowly), but even 700 yards seems a bit much.
Anyways, With the high caliber of pilots here and the current gunnery model, anything inside 1000 yards is just not safe right now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Vila
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Well this is an easy one!!
Just say NO to HO!!
Toad put it best IMO.
Dont mess with it and get it as real as possible, its not that hard to avoid and when I avoid it I ALWAYS end up on top (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), course thats what she said to.........
LLBM OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
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Caveat-with the current plane set I think that you will always see the 190a8 pilots going for a lot of head-on passes.Since everything can out-turn it and are faster to boot sometimes its your only option depending on your E state. I know that a lot of my kills are from H/O or quartering shots that if I don`t take the shot and hit means a sure death for me shortly afterwards.What I still don`t understand is the Spit pilots who H/O my 190?
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(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/victory.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by weazel (edited 02-26-2000).]
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Long range gunnery is very feasible in AH, it's just a really unbelievably stupid thing to do. I ran into a 109 with my F4U-1C the other day, trying to keep him busy as the C-47 came in to take over the field, and eventually the turnfight ended with him extending with a small gain (say 10ft/second). I fired a long burst from the cannons at 900 yards and finally hit him multiple times at 997 yards. Sheared off his wings, but took a hell of a lot of shots. I wouldn't try that normally, trust me! It was a dweeb move, and I apologise to the 109 pilot, but I'm not sure if it's completely unrealistic - he was flying completely level for maximum speed after all.
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I know I'm sounding like a "one note" musician, but I absolutely hate the idea of deliberately moving away from realism to playbalance.
I hope HTC models everything as exactly as they possibly can. It's a simple fact that the excellent RL .50 round will easily and accurately travel over 1k and retain the energy necessary to kill/maim/damage at that range.
Now if we artificially make the bullet disappear at say, 800 yards, then we are tweaking realism for playbalance.
I guarantee you that if you are going straight away level, climbing or diving, at 800 yards even _I_ can hit you with .50's (I'm no great shot), You are not doing any ACM at all; you are providing me with an excellent chance to practice long range gunnery if I so choose.
So, is this a gunnery problem or stupidity on the part of the target?
What needs to be adjusted here is the perception that ranges over 800 yards relieve you of the resposibility to continue ACM. It doesn't.
Now, with net lag and the rest, you have to build in a buffer on top of that. The guys with the super 50 ping have this problem to a much lesser degree. My route in takes 11 hops and most of those are just under 200. I know this, having used Neotrace to watch it nightly, and I've adjusted my personal ACM rules accordingly.
I view anyone within 1.5 as capable of landing hits and thus fly as if those crosshairs were on the back of my neck.
Now damage, OTOH, is an inexact science. If you want to playbalance, this is where I'd look. (I'll go on record as saying the present damage model seems OK to me. It's very "playable".) No one really knows how many hits it would take to down a plane at any range because there's too many "it depends" involved.
If you get a .50 to the back of the head at 5 yards or 1000 yards, the results will be the same; the plane is going down.
If you get 50 .50's thru the wingtip, the effect should be negligible at any range.
It depends on where, how many, how far and how sophisticated the damage map actually is.
Obviously this area can be play balanced. That "other sim" is a perfect example. I'm not saying they did it right OR wrong, just that they obviously tweaked damage for playability to suit their customer base.
(They tweaked gunnery too, which I find strange/unacceptable if you're going to tout "bestest, mostest Realistic of all.")
Phew...enough already, my fingers are cramping! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I too feel that LR gunnery is proably fairly close, it takes alot of ammo and is not that effective unless they are deadstraight. I however, am VERY happy to hear 20mm will get less effective at LR, I am getting VERY annoyed with the spits LR hispano good night kiss.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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Leph. I probably overreacted. Im an old guy, and i was raised in a different time. We were taught to say what we mean. And to think long and hard before calling a man a lier.
You posted that you were open to testing and suggestions. I suggest this.
Go back and read a number of kieren,s posts. I have been reading them a long time. And although he at times holds very strong views. He manages to express them, without offending anyone.
As a trainer, you are the face of HTC. And like it our not, you are not posting by the same rules as the rest of us anymore.
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This last weekend I was TEN times "victim" of
the same effect TT describes. All the times
flying 190 or F4U against the SAME pilot
flying Spit. All the times I saw the Spit
disintegrating in front of me and then...
...I was just DEAD, not seriously damaged or
without wings... ...just dead. None of the
times I got a single kill award.
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I think many people are confusing a HO (Head On) with a Front Quarter shot. And unfortunately many of these people came from AW, which teaches you bad habits.
In AW, the basic defense against BnZ attacks is to pull your nose up into the enemy's attack, which brings into play the "forward cone of invulnerability". No kidding. In AW, the server throws out 99% of the hits fired if they come from the front quarter.
Being a BnZ pilot I can tell you that I avoid HO's religiously. But if you pull your nose up to me during an attack pass, you better believe I am going to take the shot.
Long range gunnery? Only useful against non-manuvering targets, then only marginally. All it takes is to use a very light 1 G turn in your extension and its almost impossible to get hit beyond 600 to 700 yards.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Verm is absolutely right here. AW does teach bad habits and having been raised in AW I was once one of the most adamant complainers about the lethality of HOs.
Now, I am one of the biggest proponents of HO avoidance. On a coalt merge, I NEVER (I mean NEVER NEVER NEVER) go for a HO but rather try to avoid them. And usually it works allowing me to gracefully convert into my real merge move.
This does not mean that you should never go for a front quarter shot....quite the contrary. I find that one of my bread and butter moves is to try to get a slower plane to follow me up during my zoom right after my boom and wait until he begins to flounder underneath me before I flip over and take a head shot. If I mistime it, or underestimate the enemies energy or aim, I can get a faceful of lead as I swoop back down but hey, thats to be expected. I made a mistake I died by it.
-Ding
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Verm said, "And unfortunately many of these people came from AW, which teaches you bad habits".
Hmm, Well I think DMF and myself would disagree with you here Verm. Our experience from AW has not hurt our ability to fly in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)I am under no illusions that the hit model is going to change here
. Hitech has made that clear, and I respect his decision. I am by training not a HO taker, but the hit model here forces one to take the shot if it is availiable. In my spit to spit training with people here in AH we have solved the HO problem quite simply. Disable cannons and just use 303's. It makes for a great turn fight where extended ACM's really come into play. I recommend it to anyone tired of training with spits just to have it end with one quick immel and lucky HO shot. I wonder what other bad habits AW taught me? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"
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Jase, I was only speaking from my own AW experience (early AW4W thru today, most of it Full Realism). It was in no way meant as an insult to the guys coming from AW.
But I remember when I started flying WB's, along with AW. I had to "unlearn" many things, the hardest being how to avoid front quarter attacks.
Just my experience (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"