Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Reschke on March 09, 2004, 03:01:39 PM
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Northern Solomons Campaign
Setting: Summer and Fall 1943
The Allies have begun to build up ground and air forces for the eventual push farther outward from Guadalcanal towards Rabaul located on New Britain. They have moved significant air and ground forces into the area to cover the upcoming invasion of Bougainville via Empress Augusta Bay. Shortly after the Invasion of Bougainville the Allies will be moving to take Buka in the Green Islands and cut off the Japanese garrison on Bouganville. Unknown to anyone except the highest levels of Allied command Rabaul is going to be left withering on the vine as the massive Allied forces bypass the strategic base and move onward toward the Phillipines and Japan.
In an effort to match the Allied buildup in the area the Japanese have started moving Naval Air and Army Air units in to combat the Allied aircraft. They are also reinforcing positions on Choiseul Island, Buka in the Green Islands and Bouganville with Imperial Japanese Army units and have moved in other units to New Britain to defend against the future invasion of New Britain by the Allies. The Japanese are hoping that the Allies continue their march into Rabaul so they can tie the Allies down with a long drawn out ground battle. It is on this that the Japanese High Command has placed their hopes and it is the reason they are willing to spend some of the best air units they have to stop the Allies here.
Setup Specifications:
Guadalcanal Map
Planseset:
USN/USMC/USAAF/ANZAC:
CVs: F4F, TBM, SBD.
Airfields: P-40E, F4U-1, F6F, SBD, A-20G, B-26.
IJAAF/IJN:
CVs: A6M5, Val, Kate.
Airfields: A6M5, A6M2, Ki-61, Val, Kate, Ki-67.
No perk points for any aircraft.
CT standard AAA settings.
Formations enabled.
Fuel Burn of 1.0
All M class vehicles available for both sides; Osty also available.
Troops to capture 25.
Town Building down time of 10 minutes.
No Tiger or Panzer IV.
F4U-1 and F6F available from scattered bases to represent different USMC and USN bases.
A-20 available from all mid range bases for Allies.
B-26 available only from extreme rear area bases for Allies.
Ki-67 available from all Japanese bases.
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EDIT UPDATE NIKI REMOVED!
I removed the Niki because I used the wrong .txt file from my MOTD and didn't check it at the office when I posted this setup from there. I had two versions. One that is basically Squire's setup without the F6F (I called it Northsol01.txt) and then my version with the Niki, F6F and the F4F removed (I called it Northsol.txt) and a future map I am working on for New Britain/New Guinea.
Just so no one is confused about this I am removing the Niki and would delete the thread if I had done it in the right amount of time. But I was rushed to get to my son's baseball practice game and used the Northsol.txt file; instead of Northsol01.txt.
So move along nothing to cry or whine about here.
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Yay, F4U-1 on the lists! :D
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So just how much action did the N1KJ see in the Solomons?
Not the Phillipines or Okinawa mind you, but the Solomons.
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Not one bit but I have to make a concession to gameplay in order to help out the Japanese guys. Plus I wanted to have the F4U in here and we all know you can't have an Corsair without a George or some people will whine so much they forget how to breathe.
Anyway the setup is done and is not changing. Yeah I know I'm inflexible but hey it's my setup to run and Squire/Warloc's suggestions that made it into what it is now.
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Why not the Ki61 instead of the Niki? I think it was deployed earlier than the Niki, but I dont know for sure.
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Post pending.
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Well, I dont think its the end of the world, we can get by with the Niki, but the Ki61 would have been more accurate for the time covered.
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F6F vs N1k?
Happy camper sittin' right here. :)
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N1K2?
Japs don't need "training wheels" :)
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**edited** Thanks Reschke
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If it is '43 and f6f's are available - shouldn't those f4f's be fm2's?
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I don't think the FM2 made it to combat squadrons until 1944. Kind of like the N1K2 George.
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what ... no C-Hawg? The humanity:p
j/k
Reschke ... your set-ups need more room for whines!
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To answer a few the Ki-61 is there already. The P-38 will not be making an appearance in this setup. Not unless we get the earlier model P-38's between now and Friday.
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wooohoo
great setup:aok
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Originally posted by Skyfoxx
So just how much action did the N1KJ see in the Solomons?
Not the Phillipines or Okinawa mind you, but the Solomons.
Well I screwed up and didn't think before I posted on this one either Skyfoxx. I posted the setup thread to fast then didn't even check it out after your post here. I wasn't supposed to have the Niki in it as I was still thinking about a future setup I want to run with the Niki in it. Anyway please re-read my opening post in this thread and accept my apologies.
Thanks for the heads up I should have read your post instead of letting my fingers override my brain and jump to the mouse and keyboard at the office. In fact my thought was "WTF is he talking about?" Sometimes when you have to many projects happening your brain goes into overdrive and you end up throwing a rod out of the block before you realize what you did. That was me today.
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Appreciate you running it as it was promised. Thanks again, should be a good one.
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WOOHOO! WE GOT CARRIERS! "FINALLY!"
Good set-up Reschke, just killing me with no Hellkitty from the boat. (SIGH!) :(
Will just have to do with the Wildkitten. Still it is good to be to sea again. :aok
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were deployed mid 43 :
from logs of air group 4 - First FM2 Wildcat crash reported on Aug 11, 1943
numerous other sources indicate that FM2's were deployed in Sept, 1943 throughout the pacific area flying off CVE's.
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Storch....................... ............
Give it a rest with the whine stuff. Your the one that does all the whining. Every week, every day, almost in every thread. The noise you hear is not allied whining. Your hearing your own digestive tract , because you have your head up your ***.:rolleyes:
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Agreed. Getting to be all you hear! :rolleyes:
GEEZE dude, if you hate the game THAT BAD take your own advice and give us all a break.
Originally posted by storch
Try IL-2 you'll be glad you did.
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can we add the N1K2-J (perked) to "sub" for Ki-44 shoki?
(http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~konishi/72syouki.JPG)
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8-(
Once more PTO?????????
I think I've allready put a thread about it but looks it is too much.
Looks like WW2 was at PTO only.
Sorry, if it is not heard good for CT stuff - but you make people to leave CT.
It is too much - you should review your vision on what CT setups should be.
Looks like couple of guyes that think that WW2 was only war of USA filled CT with garbage.
Sorry if I look not polite - but all things have their boundaries.
CM stuff, please take it easy, not all the best fighters and fights were done by USAAF and USN
I have to tell that is first time I write things like that - but enough is enough. CT was not done only for Americans.
:(
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Did I miss somthing or is this week not an ETO setup?
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
can we add the N1K2-J (perked) to "sub" for Ki-44 shoki?
(http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~konishi/72syouki.JPG)
Ike, nice model!!!:aok
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Originally posted by storch
Lowe, shut up. Just a classic example of plane sets altered to cater to the allied wimpset. how is that a whine? And as I said in a previous post. Since Batz informed us that the modelling problem is across the board, long known and will not be changed I haven't uttered a word on the topic. Go pack sand.
First what value do you add to a thread when you pop in and say "Allied whine recorded" or "Allied whiners" as you have done quite a bit lately? What purpose does that serve?
Altered? If you even bothered to read his explanation he posted the wrong txt file because he was in a rush.
Its amazing for all the times you say you are going to stop bringing up the "modeling problem" you continue to bring it up indirectly.
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Originally posted by pwnorris
Ike, nice model!!!:aok
Its just a toy version that i searched in google :)
look at this...
Nik
(http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~konishi/72syouki.JPG)
Tojo
(http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~konishi/72sidenkai.jpg)
summary: Nik and Tojo almost look the same.
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post edited 'cause it violated my "kinder, gentler" policy..
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Originally posted by storch
The only aircraft that even begins to offer some form of legitimate competition to the allied planes is the the George.
Sure comes as a surprise to me.
If I read things right, it's a6m5 and tony v. hellcat, p40e and one of the corsairpigs. Zeke is probably outclassed, but the tony does very well against every one of these allied planes.
Count me with those who think the Niki would be unbalancing (as well as un-historical). AND you can bet that I'll undoubtedly end up flying Japanese for most/all of the week.
- oldman
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NO Japanese aircraft that saw regular production had the speed of the second generation American or British fighters, period. By second generation, I mean the F4U, P-47, P-38, P-51, etc.
The Japanese went for maneuverability, the Americans went for speed and ruggedness.
They are opposite approaches to the art of aerial combat, each having it's strengths and weaknesses.
Sometimes what I read in here makes me think we should just skin Spitfires and 109's so each side has the exact same planes and no one has an "advantage".
Honestly, this debate has been going on since I came to AH over 4 years ago, and people keep dragging it up over and over.
No, the Japanese planeset is NOT complete, but even if HTC added the vaunted K-84, which I think we need myself, the Japanese are STILL going to find themselves at a speed disadvantage, anywhere from 30+mph against a Jug to nearly 60mph against a Pony-B or -D.
Bottom line is, both sides can win their share of fights if the pilots are smart and use good tactics and fly smart. Get stupid in any plane, and you will find yourself back in the tower in a heartbeat,wondering what the heck just happened.
Instead of coming here and complaining about how unfair the planeset is, how about asking some of the guys flying with you to give you tips on how to defeat that week's enemy planeset?
I've seen sekiji give 4, 5, sometimes 6 F4U's and F6F's fits while he was in a Ki-61, so yes, the planeset can be competitive, but it is up to you to find what your plane's strengths are and capitalize on them.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
can we add the N1K2-J (perked) to "sub" for Ki-44 shoki?
(http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~konishi/72syouki.JPG)
Ike thanks for your suggestion. Nice model but the simple answer to it is no. As I stated in the opening post on this thread (after I got home last night and realized what I did) I edited it to reflect the mixup and posted my explanation. At some point in the future there will be a setup running with the Niki in it over the Solomons but it will not happen for a few more months on my watch in the CT.
Originally posted by artik
8-(
Once more PTO?????????
I think I've allready put a thread about it but looks it is too much.
Looks like WW2 was at PTO only.
Sorry, if it is not heard good for CT stuff - but you make people to leave CT. It is too much - you should review your vision on what CT setups should be. Looks like couple of guyes that think that WW2 was only war of USA filled CT with garbage. Sorry if I look not polite - but all things have their boundaries.
CM stuff, please take it easy, not all the best fighters and fights were done by USAAF and USN
I have to tell that is first time I write things like that - but enough is enough. CT was not done only for Americans.
Artik:
I appreciate your comments but I don't think you have seen what was playing out this week or what my first setup (btw I this is my third setup) was in January in the CT. I run Pacific setups because they generally do better than everyone anticipates they will be and I try to make the matchups something that will challenge both sides.
However the PTO isn't the only theater that gets represented in the CT. In fact I believe you had a setup or similar setup run January that was right up your alley with Egypt vs. Israel.
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Originally posted by artik
8-(
Once more PTO?????????
I think I've allready put a thread about it but looks it is too much.
Looks like WW2 was at PTO only.
Sorry, if it is not heard good for CT stuff - but you make people to leave CT.
It is too much - you should review your vision on what CT setups should be.
Looks like couple of guyes that think that WW2 was only war of USA filled CT with garbage.
Sorry if I look not polite - but all things have their boundaries.
CM stuff, please take it easy, not all the best fighters and fights were done by USAAF and USN
I have to tell that is first time I write things like that - but enough is enough. CT was not done only for Americans.
:(
Alot people come to PTO more than ETO (from what i see) and I still don't like ETO setup very well, but there will more changes after AH2 and it should get alot better than before.
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The Ki-61 is competative vs the F4U-1 birdcage, it possesses good armament (2 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7s) excellent dive characterisitics, good acceleration, good E retention, climbs about as well, and easily out turns the F4U-1. It is slower, which is the main drawback.
The Ki-61 completely outclasses both the P-40E and the F4F in speed, climb, E retention and manueverbility.
The A6M5 also easily outclasses the F4F and P-40E, especially when flown to its strengths which is CLIMB RATE not TURN RATE.
..."Sub for a Ki-44", sub for an a/c that wasn't there?
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Originally posted by storch
OM, They also have the F6F Hellcat which is fine and should be in the set and in any other 1943 sets. The FM2 and the P38 should also be included. Those three types were the definitive PTO aircraft on the Allied side.
But consider this,
1943 Japan had the Ki-61 II KAI with the 1500 hp engine which allowed this type it's best performance. we have the Ki-61 I KAIc. Ok, so the best Tony is not available. next.
The Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) with the Ha145 eng. was a near 400mph fighter that could turn. Armament was the same as the tony. IIRC this was a round engined Tony but I could be wrong.
Also in 1943 The Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki (Tojo) was available. This was a 375mph fighter with 4 12.7 Ho 103 mg. The last variant which showed up in 1943 had the Ha 145 engine. This is arguably the best army fighter the Japanese fielded.
Again in 1943 the Kawanishi N1K1-J Shinden (George) was available. We have the improved N1K2-J available in AH.
Yet again 1943 the excellent Ki-45 Toryu, a 350 mph twin fighter with araments options up to 2 x 30mm & 2 x 20mm cannon in later versions.
Sadly, none of these are avilable in AH and for all intents and purposes never will be. However I believe this should be sufficient reason to allow the George in any 1943 or later plane set.
Or as much I hate to suggest this, substitute something comparable to be a representative in order to fill the gap. A mossie or 110 to sub for the Ki-45 and the La-5 for the Ki-84 even though the Frank was possibly superior to the La-5.
Here is my stanch on substitutions one more time Storch.
I don't like doing it and if I can get away with not having a substitution aircraft (La-7, La-5, Bf-110, Ju-88, etc...) I will not have a substitute in any of my setups. The only exception to that rule for me has been the recent Second Wind setup.
The P-38 to my knowledge wasn't in large enough numbers in the Guadalcanal area to be an impact aircraft and we have just had it for what 2-3 weeks now. The FM-2 can have an argument made for its inclusion but even at the urging my squadron mate (Phantom4-MAG33) I am leary of adding it to the planeset.
As for the Japanese aircraft that you mentioned in your post just how many of those aircraft that we have in AH were actually posted to the Japanese Army or Navy Air Fleet in the Guadalcanal/New Britain/New Guinea/New Ireland/Choiseul Island area? Please answer that for me if you can.
Again once more so you and everyone else is clear on this.
I will not substitute aircraft into a setup unless there is no other choice in the matter.
Thus ends my discussion here in this thread. If you anyone would like to discuss this with me further then drop me an email.
Thanks again and enjoy.
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You keep this up and he'll not play here. Oh wait. :D
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I am not sure why most players dont understand that the CT is a simple furball arena. Most players depart oposite fileds, meet in the middle and shoot it out untill death. Even with this type of fighting, most of the time the arena appaers to be balanced. The players really do call the shots, they just dont know it.
The CMs add/remove planes only if one completely dominates the other. If the players use a much faster airplane to turn fight a slower turn fighter and die, thats thier fault. Because this happens, the CMs will allow those planes to fight. Lets take the current plane set with the Bf109G-10. It is faster and can out accelerate anything when it gets in trouble and get away but it is still in there. The F4U-1 dominates the A6M5b but can not out accelerate it when it gets too slow but yet the axis players ***** about it. Again I refer to the stats on how the game is played. Right or wrong, its how the pilots fly them. The stats dont lie. In my last P-38 post the stats turned around but was still rather close. The pilots begain using it the way it should be used. In recent past PTO set-ups which included the F4U, it did not dominate due to the way it was being flown much like the P-38 and Bf109G-10. Here are the stats for December 2003. Although not flown much the final results were even.
F4U-1 has 56 Kills of A6M5b
A6M5b has 65 Kills of F4U-1
It doesnt matter who flew more sorties to get the kills, the kills are even.
July 2003:
F4U-1 has 54 Kills of A6M5b
A6M5b has 41 Kills of F4U-1
Sept 2003
F4U-1 has 61 Kills of A6M5b
A6M5b has 56 Kills of F4U-1
June 2003
F4U-1 has 12 Kills of A6M5b
A6M5b has 18 Kills of F4U-1
Even the F4U1-D had the same basic stats. The F4U dominates only in speed and firepower, once slow, its toast unlike the Bf109G-10 vs current allied planeset.
AS long as allied pilots give you axis guys a target, you just cant complain...the stats prove it.
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I dont care if the Niki is in the set as I'll fly both sides as I always do, but it is not correct for the time period. The only IJN/IJA fighters at Rabaul at the time were the A6M5 and the Ki61, plain and simple and that is all they should have. If you add the Niki, then you have to allow the F4U-1D which is not right for the time covered. As mentioned above the Ki61 is a very capable aircraft and should not me brushed aside so quickly.
Having said that, there have been many times when aircraft improper for the time period covered by a set have been included, like the Tiffie (a '44 model) in the '42 BoB, and the G10 (fall '44) in the current spring '44 set. These have been (argueably) non-tragedy's and have not severly upset balance, but I am not for adding something just because one side has a bit of an edge. The scenarios should[/i] IMO have some levels of imbalance if they are to be accurate.
Having said that (pt 2), I am not against subing a model for something we dont have provided they are very similar in performance (La7 for Ki100 or 110/Mossie for a Ki45) and the plane they are to represent is correct for the time period the set covers. This set should NOT have any subs, the A6M5 and Ki61 are the only ones the IJN/IJA should have.
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Is it gonna happen?? Is it gonna stay the setup that Warloc posted? Only two more days till we find out... ohh I'm so gitty I can't wait for Friday.
Not that you'll take it for much, but Reschke. It is a good "Combat Theater" historical setup and thanks for seeing it through.
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Originally posted by TheBug
... ohh I'm so gitty I can't wait for Friday.
Are you giddy as well? :D
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Originally posted by gear
new allied plane making it's maiden flight in this setup:aok (https://webmail.pas.earthlink.net/wam/MsgAttachment?msgid=4110&attachno=1)
i need your email and password...
;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Are you giddy as well? :D
Thanks for taking the time to point out my spelling mistake Arlo
Now I see really deep down you're a nicer guy than you pretend to be.
TheBug :aok
P.S. Don't worry, size isn't everything.
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Originally posted by TheBug
P.S. Don't worry, size isn't everything.
I'm glad you came to terms. :D :aok
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Originally posted by storch
Allied types and CT Staffers.
The IJN/IJAAF is lacking in equipment. Is it not?
Most of the inventory on the allied side easily outperforms anything in in the Japanese inventory. Do they not?
So let's see what kind of set up we have.
With the exception of the F4F which will most likely not be flown everything on the Allied side out runs, out guns and out dives everything on the IJ side. The IJ side has weapons that can climb and turn. Is this not so?
The only aircraft that even begins to offer some form of legitimate competition to the allied planes is the the George.
Want a constructive opinion? Fine. It seems to me and others, not just Jg3 members BTW That there is an element in the CT that doesn't want opposition. This element wants targets.
Why would you remove the only true contender from the IJ plane set?
Irrespective of what you ultimately put up I will spend some time in the CT as will most of the usual CT players. Why not attempt to make it fun for all?
Give the Axis players an opportunity to offer some real challenge. You allied types already hold all the cards even with the George in the set.
Whine:lol
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Originally posted by storch
OM, They also have the F6F Hellcat which is fine and should be in the set and in any other 1943 sets. The FM2 and the P38 should also be included. Those three types were the definitive PTO aircraft on the Allied side.
But consider this,
1943 Japan had the Ki-61 II KAI with the 1500 hp engine which allowed this type it's best performance. we have the Ki-61 I KAIc. Ok, so the best Tony is not available. next.
The Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (Frank) with the Ha145 eng. was a near 400mph fighter that could turn. Armament was the same as the tony. IIRC this was a round engined Tony but I could be wrong.
Also in 1943 The Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki (Tojo) was available. This was a 375mph fighter with 4 12.7 Ho 103 mg. The last variant which showed up in 1943 had the Ha 145 engine. This is arguably the best army fighter the Japanese fielded.
Again in 1943 the Kawanishi N1K1-J Shinden (George) was available. We have the improved N1K2-J available in AH.
Yet again 1943 the excellent Ki-45 Toryu, a 350 mph twin fighter with araments options up to 2 x 30mm & 2 x 20mm cannon in later versions.
Sadly, none of these are avilable in AH and for all intents and purposes never will be. However I believe this should be sufficient reason to allow the George in any 1943 or later plane set.
Or as much I hate to suggest this, substitute something comparable to be a representative in order to fill the gap. A mossie or 110 to sub for the Ki-45 and the La-5 for the Ki-84 even though the Frank was possibly superior to the La-5.
WHAAAAAAAAAAA
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Originally posted by Rafe35
Alot people come to PTO more than ETO (from what i see) and I still don't like ETO setup very well, but there will more changes after AH2 and it should get alot better than before.
So..... does it means lets forget ETO, BoB, North Africa, Eastern Front and fly PTO only.
Sorry buddy but it is too much for me.
- Second Wind - PTO
- Guadalcanal - PTO
- Grease
- Black Sheep - PTO
- Europe 1944
- Northen Solomons - PTO
Looks like CT is PTO Theatre...............
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OK, I didn't want to have to wade in here and tell you guys to stop waving your weiners around but you leave me no choice. I have not seen so much infantile, pedantic, gagging non substance in a week, at least. I'm serious now.
What's the question?
Oh yeah, OK.
I like the setup with A6M5 and Ki-61 vs whatever the Allies want. Hey, most of the war the japanese were on the wrong end of the airplane stick, who cares.
Screw balance, let's fly.
Sakai
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Yeah artik but if you go back 2 more weeks past that you see
Hungary
BoB
Second Wind
Guadalcanal
Grease
Black Sheep
Europe '44
Norther Solomons
looks like 4 and 4
and if you go back further you'll see that there's maybe more ETO than PTO and if you go back and start counting from a different part there's gonna be more PTO. Makes the stats like that kinda subjective don't ya think? The CT staff does try to mix is up and move it around sometimes we're more successful than others but I'd be willing to bet that all in all each theater gets about the same attention.
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PTO's were ignored for a very long time. Lately they have been getting more attention. Other than the fact the Japanese planeset needs updating, I don't see a problem with it. Every setup comes around sooner or later.
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Liked to see something different - the "All Finland - All the Time" was getting a little stale.
Though the new stuff is nice - the limited plane sets in "Black Sheep" and "France 1944" are the wrong way to go IMHO. If it was available for the time and the map it should be flying - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
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Originally posted by Sakai
Screw balance, let's fly.
Sakai
Once again Sakai cuts through the crap and hits the real point dead center.
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"Screw balance, let's fly."
Damn, that should be a permanent CT banner :)
Artik- get over it, you act like we need a special "excuse" to have PTO. Maybe broaden your horizons a bit.
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Did I see Shane post in here? Where did he come from? :D
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Originally posted by Sakai
Screw balance, let's fly.
Sakai
I agree with Sakai. Let's fly until our wings fall off.:eek:
Wait!!!! what did I just say????:aok
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Originally posted by Sakai
Screw balance, let's fly.
Sakai
Hear, hear! Most of my favorite sorties have happened while outgunned/outplaned/outmanned. Balance is for first-person shooter maps, this is a simulation and things aren't always going to be perfect.