Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: rv6 on March 10, 2004, 06:17:40 AM
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Hi All..
I've been in online sims since GEnie AW. Find there are (basically)4 types of fighter pilots;
#5-The New Guy, played a few hrs of MSFS, and wants to try an online sim on Sat mornings only.
#4-The guy that can survive & thinks he's pretty good, by flying a 30k 190 or P51, and picking off stragglers.. Flys probably 6 or 8 hrs a week.
#3-The guy who's willing to try diff planes, get low & slow & tangle a bit.. knows a handful of fairly workable "moves".. plays 15 or so hrs a wk.
#2-Guy's been around for a long time. Call sign is fairly well known. Knows a whole bunch of good moves. If he attacks from an alt advantage, he's gonna' get ya' 9 outa 10, no matter what the odds are. 1st stage "addicted" to AH,, plays countless hr weekly and any "down" moment he/she can sneak away from family obligation.
#1-THE REALLY GOOD GUYS. (only a handful)They live online. Against anyone in classes #5 ~ #2 above, they are invincible. They are SO good that sometimes we (the #2 ~ #3 guys) swear that they're using hacked code..
For instance:
One time, I'm power diving and scooting back to base at nearly 400 kts.. actually pulling away from a pair of La7's in tow!
Dead ahead, coming from my base at eyelevel co-alt is an nme P51.. we pass wing to wing both doing 400 kts in opposite directions..
I look in rearview to monitor the La's,, and I'll be dipped in *****.. That P51, does a hairpin 180 turn, I do mean HAIRPIN! You see the tail in one breath, then the nose in the next..
He catches the 2 La7's,, PASSES THEM,, and in a blink, he's 300d' off my tail and shoots me down in a single burst..
I had to mention this on CH1, and the fellow gave some lame excuse as to "what really happened". Then he logged off when everyone on CH1 agreed, and were turning their gun-cams on for proof to send to HiTech.. (ha! he logged off!)
Other than this one fellow (un-named), the rest are truly great, great flyers!
They seem to consistenly have this one "move" that just slays me! (literally) I'm hoping that someone may have a gun-cam of this? Would love to learn it.
Goes like this; (me in NIK, w/ huge alt adv over this measly little F6F scooting along over the water on the deck,, all by himself)
No where for him to run, no buddys in site.. he just egressed from a furball battle, little or no ammo.. and I'm in a fresh 900 rnd 25% fuel NIK!
Start the dive,, 2,000d, 1,500d, at 1,000d he does this classic nose up & over & under turn, which spoils my dive, ruins my shot angle, and if I try to turn with him at my speed, I slam the water..
So.. I pull up for another pass,, look out rearview and SOB! He's RIGHT THERE! Guns blazing!
He hangs with me, going up! (where/how in hell did he get that E after a hard 180 turn to still climb??)
Finally.. he drops off, nose down..
I hammerhead down for another go,, he has to be bled off completely (no E at all)..
But NOOOoooo~ There goes the classic "curl around & under" turn,, spoils my run, and this time I climb up again in a completely odd angle..
Look in rearview.. THERE HE IS FIRING AWAY AND STINGING ME!
2 or 3 more of these and I finally chop power on a dive, to hang with him on the water.. He has STILL got enough E to scissor the pi$$ outa' me, and shoots me down like a dog in the streets.. :-D
It was a fellow named "Greebo" in an F6f. Unbelievable.
Same deal with a low, slow P47 weeks before. The pilot did that classic "curl around & under" move, then that big heavy Jug turns on a dime and is climbing right up my behind firing! Over & over & over.. never looses all his E,, never runs outta' ammo, and regardless of my zoom angle up,, he RIGHT ON ME!
This was a fellow named; "Shane" in a P47.
I'd love to learn how this move is done.. It's unbeatable. Anyone have a film that you could e-mail me?
Thanks much,
RV6 ~
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Now thats how you gripe gentlemen!
Wolf
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its called an overshoot RV6:D
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I've seen Drex do the same thing on the deck in his Hellcat
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here's a very good example of what's being done.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111083
i'll dig around in films and see if i can come up with another one.
also if you ask me, i'll gladly take you into the DA and let you bounce me to show you how it's done. most of the time the move results in a snapshot opportunity before your e advantage lets you escape... but.... you have to be committed to making that escape because any loss of e from hesitating or pulling up too hard into the zoom, will only keep you in guns range. with .50's that danger zone extends to around 650 yds.
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You have been "Drexed"
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I was under the impression alot of the really good players actually spend little time playing, having picked up their skills years ago.
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here are 2 films showing the move(s)... one is similar to WT's in the overshoot from a bounce.
the second film (film21) shows it as well, and with the last encounter with the 109 you see the "180" move.
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1078928382_films.zip
dowding, you're mostly right, except some play more than others still. ;)
:eek:
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Thanks Shane.. Have got the films. Will watch 'em tonight. Appreciate the offer to DA and let me "bounce you" a few times,, that's what i was actually hoping for, but somewhat embarassed to ask one of you "#1" guys..
:-)
RV6
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another thing about the good guys is that they're usually more than willing to help you learn what they do. unless they're on so infequently that they cherish their "play time" - but even then they're often willing to post films and explain.
i just wish more people stuck on a plateau would ask. i'm always willing to allow people to join my plane - but have surprisngly only been asked very few times. and of course i do take time to show people things in the DA.
here's 2 more:
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1078930948_film15.zip
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1078931250_film25.zip
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Haven't seen the films but I'm guessing it involves a high-g nose-low turn, then WEP on nose-up, nudging the rudder to keep it steady if necessary.
Its a move that's been around since Air Warrior 1.5, maybe even longer. Used to be done a lot more before the black-out effect was introduced to flight sims.
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I've had that happen to me too funny thing is its not always an immediate snapshot. I've seen em do a hairpin about face then chace me down from sometimes 900+ yards like Im standing still
with me doing 400 mph.
Have seen some much weirder things lately.
Kind of things that make you stop and go "hmmmmm"
I Dive on a feild in a tiffy fullthrottle there is a NIK upping I miss him and go virtical using Wep. the nik gets airborne and literally right off the runway catches up and out grabs me in like 15 seconds. going almost comlpletely vertical right off the end of the runway. Now I've flown NIKs ALOT. and no way can I do that. ad its not like I pulled hard on my stick and blew all my E either cause I didnt.
another instance Im in a Yak chasing a 38 we fight and I ping him. I see the 38 in a flat spin headed down then all of a sudden it vanishes! I mean completely dissapears!
I turn and there is the 38 now higher then me and running away. at 2K So I chase him again. he turns and comes at me with an attempted HO shot I break right and do a hard about face to where he should be. but isnt. instead there he is again running and again higher then me and 5.5K out. Now keep in mind this happened in no more then 3-4 seconds tops, we went from being about 10 feet apart to 5.5 K apart. in LESS then 4 seconds.
And no there were no other enemy aircraft int he area or even in the same sector.
I never did catch him and reupped several times with Cam on to try to find him again so I could film it. Never did see him again.
dunno about the rest of you and I really hate to say it but there are some thigns I've seen lately that remind me an auful lot of the speed hack that was goin on in AW for a while.
Now maybe there is something going on, and maybe there isnt.
It just seems that lately over the last few months or so I've been seeing more and more things that make ya kinda go "hmmmmm"
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i aint saying nothing more bout it...sorry fergot and wasnt thinking
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gone
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can u two goofs remove those posts and put 'em under a new subject?
i'm not gonna like it when ht or skuzzy locks a potentially helpful thread. :mad:
:aok
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I agree w/ Shane here, If you suspect hacking or cheating film it and send it in.
Never discuss it on the BBS as it will result in the thread getting locked and or deleted
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...maybe i didn't RTFM well enough...why do they lock? Justification?
By the way my play time is VERY precious to me, I only get to fly once maybe twice a week but I'm constantly reading in here so that when I do fly i get more enjoyment out of it.
Thank you to all the good pilots - and that means everyone who asks intelligent and informative questions, not just the ones who hand me my prettythang all the time in the MA :D my progress might be slow but its quality that counts and you all provide me with valuable help and insight.
Cheers all.
:aok
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Edit: I've removed this and will put it in the technical support area.
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It serves no constructive purpose to discuss it. All any player can do is speculate. Through the course of this speculation, other players get paranoid. Suddenly you have escalated speculation to extreme paranoia.
None of the above actually solved any problems, just created more.
We can actually do something about it. A speculated issue could be a bug in the game we need to know about and correct. There could be other issues you cannot be aware of that causes odd behavior. We have the tools and means to analyze an issue.
Sorry for the off topic post. Please get back to being helpful.
EDIT: Tweety, it cannot hurt.
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One more thing: if you try a high-g nose-low turn in a plane that's been hit a few times but nothing has broken, there's a real possibility that your high-g turn could cause a wing to fall off or for your airplane to explode outright.
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Originally posted by Shane
here's a very good example of what's being done.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111083
i'll dig around in films and see if i can come up with another one.
also if you ask me, i'll gladly take you into the DA and let you bounce me to show you how it's done. most of the time the move results in a snapshot opportunity before your e advantage lets you escape... but.... you have to be committed to making that escape because any loss of e from hesitating or pulling up too hard into the zoom, will only keep you in guns range. with .50's that danger zone extends to around 650 yds.
Been prcticing Wt's move like in the film i've watched it a dozen times and i "think" ive got it down i would like to practice in DA iffen somebody has the time to do it im available pretty much whenever just not the same without somebody shooting at ya
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Originally posted by Shane
the second film (film21) shows it as well, and with the last encounter with the 109 you see the "180" move.
actually i attached the wrong film.. this is the film i was referring to the "180 move" in. it occurs around the 2 minute mark.
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1078966128_film23.zip
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Originally posted by Shane
....also if you ask me, i'll gladly take you into the DA and let you bounce me to show you how it's done. .......
......another thing about the good guys is that they're usually more than willing to help you learn what they do.
I would appreciate the help Shane....And I'm not to proud to ask either. Be happy to set a time that we both can be there and learn from ya all I can.
:)
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Shane! -downloaded all you posted, and WT's film. Looking forward to watching them a little later!
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Hi Shane, watched the films last night (several times). Totally see what you're doing, and how it's works. Thanks much!
Thing is.. (and my jaw literally dropped open, and said "OH.... MY.... GOD"
You multiprocess SO FREAKN FAST, that it's funny!
You click through the view keys, SO FAST, assimilate each little 1/4 second view-blip, correct flight attitude, process new incoming nme (distance, angle, etc), fire guns (effiecient conservative squirts),, and continue view scanning throughout, at the speed of light..
You never, EVER loose site of the plane you're engaging..
You seldom if EVER actually look out the front view.. (only for quick shots) and fly totally by looking out side, up, and back windows! HA!
Faster than most normal human brains could interpret..
You've gota be kidding me!
NOW, I understand how the "good guys" do it.. Like a P5 CPU chip. I couldn't do this with a lifetime of practice! ha! But, I do understand "how" to perform the manuever at my P2 CPU level.. Thanks!
One last question, if I may.. (and you may feel free to NOT post an answer for obvious reasons, ha)
You are able to take on 2 & sometimes 3 nme and still win (track them all, slowly shoot em down, 1 at a time)..
Suppose, YOU were the one hi-alt attacker on a low nme of your same ability. How would you beat this fellow, who constantly does this tuck under & shoot manuever?
I'm thinking, perhaps by making continuous hot strafe runs? Spray and pray for a couple hits on each run? Keep him low n' slow, you keep fast and BnZ'ing him?
What d'ya think boss?
Thanks again,
RV6 ~
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2 things to bear in mind when watching the films....
1. i use instant views (sit at your pc, and try to move your own head scanning different perspectives as quick as you can - like ur in fear for your life, where the f is he?!?) pan and snap views seem too slow for me.
2. i have different head positions than what shows in the film, so my perspectives are actually a bit better.
it does give you a good idea of how i'm constantly scanning and adjusting to new data. i almost never get blindsided.
the way to beat what i do is to use the vertical to stay on top - i.e., make a fake pass or so trying to get me to burn even more e countering - altho i'm good about conserving e if it's only 1 or 2 guys. it's the committal to a guns pass that i am waiting for. i'll even use the guy i am on as bait for the incoming guy i see.
another is to anticipate and slow down enough to avoid the overshoot and stay behind me and hope you get me before we end up in rolling scissors. this is what i usually do, get slow enough to drop and stay on the target's 6. it's pretty difficult to force an overshoot on me.
my gunnery is only slightly above average, nowhere near levi's or wt's.. i'm not usually a quick killer, i basically wear people down. i'm real good at capitalizing on mistakes that guys make.
the fast bnz passes work best if you have a 2nd or 3rd guy doing the same thing, it's very hard to defend and get a kill shot. this is the one situation where i'll actually commit to a HO because that may be the only chance i get.
however, the longer i survive in a (multi-con) bnz situation, the greater the chance of eventually at least equalizing alt states and forcing the other guy to ru.. err extend enough to get more breathing room.
when watching films it's good to both watch from internal (and see how i scan and how the instruments reflect what i'm doing) as well as externally - with trails on - to see the overall picture and how the angles are being worked.
in any case, hope it was educational.
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Hmmm...I jumped Fester once.....I lasted about 6 seconds! (maybe)
I need to watch that film. I can avoid fairly well 1 on 1, sometimes 2 on 1 if they are not too good. Its the turning the tide part that I cant seem to do. And against multiples, I just cant track well enough. The whole idea of checking all the views all the time and being able to make sense of what I see is beyond my reckoning.
I did participate in the simladder for a while, but it became difficult for me to keep it up. I learned a bit while there, but shoulda stayed with it longer.
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Tks Shane , watching your films is a real immersion in a world where "all seems so easy to do " , but when I try the outcome is not so bright.
I watched at films more times, in and out perspective, and I've made the idea that beyond all, I cant get a good managing of throttle in this maneuver
May I ask you some lines about how do you manage it
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well, throttle management comes with experience. but it's mostly about anticipation - knowing what i'm trying to accomplish and predicting what the other guy will try to do. for example, i'm bouncing someone, i know he's most likely gonna try and split-ess out, so while coming down i'm chopping throttle (and maybe using some opposite rudder) to slow down and drop on his split-ess. or in a rolling scissors, i'll use it, in conjunction with flaps and "wider" rolls to stay behind/force overshoot the guy i'm scissoring with. or if in a lag looping situation, i'll ease up to let the other guy pull a bit further ahead to make it easier to adjust to him.
a good plane to learn throttle control is the 109 because you have to get slow and stay slow to utilize the flaps. and since the 109 controls stiffen up fairly quick at higher speeds, it's also great for teaching you to how manage your speed to stay in control.
once you get the basics down with the 109, you'll find that experience transferring over to other planes.
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I'm category 4, maybe 3 on a good day.
I've shot down good pilots but hardly ever in one on one's, these are rare at best.
Despite my 'un-Shanic' capabilities to process info I not often get SHOT down by fighters. I auger, collide, get hit by CV ack, Osti's or by return fire from bombers because I am so impatient. One on one's I mostly win but that might be because I'm category 4 and the guys I meet suck even worse.
What works best for me is to avoid overloading my SA and when within range of a lot of enemies keep my speed up.
My gunnery is quite good, courtesy of using the German 30mm alot. Despite this Shane once shot me down once with a 109 from an angle I never would have attempted even.
I don't fly more than a few hours per week because I found out I need full concentration, not possible when I'm tired after work. So I think that I'm as good as I'm ever going to get.
I really abhor, loathe and hate it when I die in this game... but careful flying, stalking and killing still gives me more satisfaction than mindless furballing, no matter how much I would learn on the SA front there.
Would be nice to go up in the DA once against a good pilot to learn a few tricks. I think I am good enough in E-management, gunnery, throttle management and basic flying and surviving. The fancy ACM stuff... nah. It's either outmaneuvering an opponent or dragging the E out of him. Can't do better than that.
Ow, and I jumped Fester twice, once when he was low and it was 4 against one. He didn't even evade. Second time was when I picked him off when he and his friends were vulching. He evaded but I got a planview shot in (got shot down seconds later though by a wingie). Not to say that I'm good but it's not impossible to get a good pilot with a little luck. But maybe it was his little nephew playing or something. Nevertheless I screamed so loud on vox that I startled people.
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DoctorYo's Tip.. #1
Never underestimate the hellcat...
2 cents
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
It serves no constructive purpose to discuss it. All any player can do is speculate. EDIT: Tweety, it cannot hurt.
If "IT" is speculation why have users been banned for life?
I.E: "X427"
Just curious!
IKON
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Shane,
I only had time to watch the last film, good flying there, but I have to say my favorite part was the "landing" at the end :D
The film brings to mind what I usually forget and that is to fly where the guy is going to be and not where he is. Thanks for posting them.
--Howitzer
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Originally posted by 1K0N
If "IT" is speculation why have users been banned for life?
Please do not take what I say out of context. The mere speculation causes more problems than imaginable. Because it is mere speculation, there is no need to create so many other conflicts, which all have to be dealt with.
There is no purpose to it. Nothing positive can be gained from it. Only negativity comes from it. How many more ways can I say it?
Sorry for the interruption of the thread folks. Carry on.
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Speaking from experience... ahem...
I was told by the elders of AH (and didn't listen) and almost went too far. I think some of you know what I mean.
If you *think* something wierd is going on- go directly to HT. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. Do not talk about it on the Forums.
What you think 'may' be happening is most likely due to uncontrollable factors. The internet is a finicky beast, trust me I do this for a living (LOL).
But seriously, talk directly to Skuzzy or HT if you suspect something so they can fix it. Idle speculation here only leads to BAD things. VERY bad things.
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Most (probably all) claims of hacking/cheating are a result of not understanding the inherent delay in an internet connection, no matter how fast. In all the years of AW and the time I have been in AH I have never seen anything that could not be explained no matter how odd it seemed at first. As they said, if you suspect something dont put it out in public, send it to HT or Skuzzy.