Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: KootDawg on March 10, 2004, 10:43:51 PM
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With the plane set given.... can someone tell me how to win fighting each plane on each side..... Or should I say if I flew every plane given how do I fly each to WIN.......
Thankyou in Advance..
KootDawg
See you in the Sky!!!!!!!!!
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Ive been wonder this myself. It seems most of the tactics being used are "gaggle doctrine", "strike-rejoin-strike", "bait and switch" and some modified form of "fluid four/double attack".
I've found more often than not flying the 109 series to use the bait and switch on the deck or strike-rejoin-strike if I've got a good pilot with me in the area and the altitude to do it. The bait and switch is highly dangerous to do though. Once you've got the first kill extend and reengage once you've got an idea how many more cons are inbound. This can be easily used by the allies too. More often than not it is in the low alt gaggle engagements but most probably don't think about it. Biggest thing is keep your energy up in this and use slashing attacks or bait cons to go vertical.
More often than not the allies are using the strike-rejoin-strike so it seems. Constantly keeping pressure on the defender so they can't go anywhere but lower in alt or make a vital mistake and try to zoom again. We've barely got enough time to regain a slight bit of maneuvering energy and we lose it again with in 5 to 10 seconds max. I've also seen them using the bait and switch too. All of these fit the allied planes capabilities though as they are fast and maneuverable. Using there acceleration in the dive to there advantage and there maneuvering over the top any one of these planes can successfully use these tactics to there advantage.
I'd honestly say your best bet is not to try and learn everyone right off and expect greatness and some magical solution to flying them. They are all pretty much the same to an extent. Just have to know when and when not to zoom, turn or most of all learn when to disengage. If you can start to figure out when the situation is going in the opposite direction and pick the quickest way out you'll be fine. As much as folks like to complain about runners it's best to learn to fly smart and know when your in trouble. Pick your fights don't let your opponents pick them.
I've found either side is fairly matched so long as the pilot uses some caution in flying. That doesn't mean only engage when you feel it's an absolute kill but weigh the consequences and be patient(plan ahead).
Also try not to make more than a 90 degree turn at any time during a furball unless your absolutely positive you can do so without being saddled up. After your turns do a quick cold side check to ensure no one slipped in behind you or is maneuvering to do so. Once again energy management is the key here in all of these birds. You can turn and burn most of them but only do so when your confident you can get the kill in less than 3 turns. Anymore and it's possible you can be countered.
Try and keep the fight to one side as much as possible to eliminate those blind attackers. If you go too deep into the fray then your most likely gonna get saddled up unless a friendly is close enough and paying attention to clear you.
Alot of it is just learning what you can and can't do. When you can zoom and when you can't. How far in can you suck an opponent on your six before you can counter and force an overshoot into a short lasted flat scissors or rolling scissors. Any extended maneuvering is bound to get you saddled up so extend whenever possible and reengage. Timing is key to everything you do when your flying. And so is experience. Can't learn if you haven't screwed up doing something. Look at me..I get killed alot..lol
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I agree with Cobra. The easy part is learning each plane's strengths and weaknesses, the hard part is getting everything together in your head so you know what to do, and when to do it and you do it with out stopping to think "oh I should do xxx". The plane you are in at the moment is important, but as he said, they are all similar in so much as you dont want to do needlessly dumb things (I'm still working on that part myself).
For example, all too often I am impatient and I fly straight to the fight, I dont take a second to anylize whats going on. Then when I get there, I have not got a plan to get out if I need to. And to top it all off, I regularly disregard his very good advice not to turn more than 90 deg.
The only thing I would differ slightly from what Cobra said is I think aggressiveness is key no matter what you fly. Do something they dont expect, like instead of zooming on a BnZ pass in a P-47, blow some speed, yank around and get them while they are thinking of what to do. Lots of times you can kill them while they try to decide how to counter a move they were not ready for. This can leave you high and dry in a bad situation though (and it happens to me) so thats not for everyone.
You should pick your fights, not let the enemy pick them for you, and always watch for someone trying to saddle you while you are killing their buddy, but once you decide to go for the kill, GO FOR THE KILL, dont hold back.
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this is very interesting.... I like these tatics i don't fly by them... I need to.. The other nite I flew 10 sorties and was shot down not killed 9 times and killed on a landing..... able to sta alive now need plane to make it home... I see E is a very big thing.....
but I love getting on a 190's 6 at low speeed and staying there in a 38 but someone always saddles up with me and I end up bailing....
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Koot,
The easiest thing to remember out of what Grits said is this, "once you decide to go for the kill, GO FOR THE KILL, dont hold back." The second you are indecisive about putting the rounds out at a target you have lost a little portion of the edge you had by getting on the targets tail.
One example of this is in the IL-2 series. The second you give you flight mates an opening on the target you have saddled and are riding in they will jump all over it and you better hope you are out of the way. Its kind of the same way in AH.
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The other thing is dont get dicouraged. We all start out at the same level when we are new, even the best guy now was horrible when he first started. I do OK, but even the best guy can get a cold streak. Last night I went three sorties in a row with no kills and VERY quick deaths, while my average is about 1.5 per death and .9 per sortie.
Keep at it, dont give up or get upset. Your in the 78th Eagles right? Ask some of your squadmates, some of those guys are not only nice, but are pretty darn good sticks they can help you for sure.
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Yes I am in the 78th. I talk to them and listen to them..... Just also wanted to hear from ya'll too.. hard to talk at times while in the air in the CT...
But as for giving up nawww not me and getting killed don't botehr me just want to become a better stick and ask to see what others know... Lowe and Hawk are great to explain and teach things to us and we have Phazer, Taxi and others too...
Just looking in other places too.... :cool:
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Yup, those guys help non-squaddies too, Taxi taught me how to use the Bombsight, for which I am eternally grateful.
You sound like you have the right attitude. My #1 rule is no matter what you do, if you are not having fun you are doing something wrong, no matter how high your kills per death/kills per sortie or score is. Fun is #1.
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One thing I like to do with the Corsair (favorite ride and the one I try to be really good in) is to make aggressive moves that put me in guns range quickly. If I am above my target I will make a slashing pass just off their nose (if I am unseen which isn't likely) and use my Energy and acceleration to extend and setup again. Now I also pretend that the Corsair is a Zeke and start turning with some spitdweeb and end up getting my plane shot out from under me. Those are usually the times when I have the most fun.
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I don't fly the corsair much. but man can it dive and I know you need to watch your E in that thing and it don't turn but old Pappy Boyington could fly it and his squad.....
I love the 38 and have fun in it too... the 47 is fun also... actually all of them are fun.... Where else can you die and get back in the air???? not for real..... LOL
Alot of repect for a real Fighter Pilot especially WW2 ones they had gahunga's bigger than all of us.. or atleast me.....
KootDawg
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You guys make it seem wayyyy too complicated.
All you have to do is not be afraid to try stuff - figure out how to make people overshoot, then figure out how to make people overshoot and manipulate it so they get forced into a position where u can whack em. fight agressively! Pee's me off to see people that would rather run and land than even attempt to fight. Wont learn diddly squat that way.
Eventually you will learn how to fight in ANY plane to a reasonable standard - then you can work on the finer points of each model.
In my opinion of course. :)
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Furball said much clearer what I was trying to say. :)
Fight aggressively, learn to become deadly, learn to live and land later. Actually, once you learn to kill quickly, the returning to land just happens on its own, you wont have to try.
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Originally posted by Furball
All you have to do is not be afraid to try stuff
best advice anyone can ever give (and take).
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Agressiveness can be looked at in two ways. Being smart and agressive or being dumb and agressive. Hence why I said earlier about being cautious when you fly and thinking smart. You can get in over your head very quickly and in the end you've learned what? How to take off again and fly back to the furball and thats it.
If you change up your attacks constantly it'll leave the other pilot guessing what is next. Don't just constantly slash, extend and reengage. If you've assessed that there is no threat close enough use the loop or a spiral climb or a banking flat during your egress. Use a a few slow developing attacks then change up and get right back in as soon as possible. Then when they are least expecting it (if you haven't already killed them) slap that throttle back, get on the rudders and saddle up.
You can be aggressive and learn when and at what angles you need to engage for snap shots and such but it's still a matter of being smart when doing it. Some mistakes you'll learn from but others will only leave you in frustration. If you don't immediately realize what you did wrong then your not gonna learn much. Some things may leave wondering wtf which is common but others you should pickup on right off. There are many great sticks out there and thats when you start doing the wtf thing. But others are good, mediocre and just flat out ducks in a shooting gallery.
I agree with Furball that landing your kills will come in time but saying we are making to complicated I don't. Learning the basics of maneuvering and counters is fine in a one on one fight against a fairly equal opponent and aircraft. When you start running into the better sticks you better be able to realize what it is they are trying tactically or your gonna be in deep trouble quickly. Especially when they have a wingman. You'll find yourself getting pinched/bracketed and sandwhich all to often. When you can successfully defend off two good wingmen and get atleast one of them or last for awhile you'll start feeling more confident. With that you'll find that your flying becomes natural and very little thought is required to fight the good fight and live or die with pride. You'll know you did your best regardless of the outcome.
Once again extending and fighting the smart fight isn't dishonorable as you'll be coming back to fight again. Atleast on equal or slightly less than equal optimal fighting conditions. Anyone who whines about runners is only pissed cause they missed there chance to hammer you and want a second chance. Give it to them but don't make it easy and turn back into the fight right away. Extend enough to make a low g, low energy draining turn and come back with atleast a one turning radius seperation before you go back to level flight and are ready to fight again. With higher speed aircraft you may have to adjust your distance out a bit more than normal to ensure you've got good seperation after completing your turn.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Once again extending and fighting the smart fight isn't dishonorable as you'll be coming back to fight again.
Certainly it isn't dishonorable. But it IS very boring, and you don't learn as much as you do when you pick an opponent and actually try to maneuver onto his six.
Some people get really discouraged if they don't get kills. If that's you, Cobra's advice is very good. An alternative view is that these are very difficult skills to learn, and it will take you a long time to learn them. During that time - measured in months, certainly, if not years (....if ever, for some of us), you are going to get killed as a matter of course. Take Frank Savage's advice - consider yourself already dead - try something new each time, as others have said, and take away a new bit of knowledge from each fight. You may be surprised at just how much fun it can be, even if you aren't getting any kills.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Cobra412
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah BLAH
There you are making it too complicated again. Aggressive = kill your opponent. Doesnt matter about flying smart or not.
Once you learn to kill your opponent. Then you can decide to fly smart. Running away in the first place wont teach you how to beat someone.
I learnt in hurricane IIC.. you learn how to anticipate how to get into shooting position because its so slow, you learn ACM by avoiding BnZ'ers and most importantly you cant run away - you have to fight your way out of situations.
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Furball does make some sense, I learned more in a few months of flying the Hellcat than I did in a year of flying the P-51. Not that one plane is any more capable than the other nessesarily, just it's to easy to take the out and run for it if you can.
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I am solidly in the "kill first, land later" camp. I think partly what Cobra is saying is you are not even going to learn to kill if you dont live long enough to do anything but fly to a 5 v 1 and die.
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Did a couple of hurricane sorties to show you just what i mean.
First one good for showing lead turns and getting caught (i get caught on deck by 110 and 205 with 25 rounds) and having to fight outta trouble.
2nd is fighting multiple enemies at once and dying in the process.
you will learn from fighting like that.
Get Film Here (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1079114841_Furballing.zip)
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Furball whats your issue for starters?
Yes you can learn by just getting in there and TnB. You can learn those lag rolls, reversals, hi/low yo yos, lead pursuits, lag pursuits, pure pursuits and lead turns. But if you don't understand how to use those outside of a furball where are you then?
Lead turning in a furball isn't always pure skill. Most of the time your just in the right place at the right time(luck). Lead turning someone outside of a furball takes skill and alot of practice. So does out maneuvering them when they have more than just the break turn, flat scissors and rolling scissors at there disposal on the deck. Screw the merge and your most likely in DS right off the bat.
Straight up TnB experience won't always help you either when your working with a wingman. Understanding what options you have and what they have is critical. Knowing when and what aircraft to isolate first and how to do it is also an issue.
I suppose you'll learn that from TnB only? What about learning the skill of switches and when to do so, is that to complicated? Flying a less capable aircraft will over time teach you alot but using it purely for TnB and suicide missions is absurd. Switching up your tactics during a fight is considered intelligent flying. You'll be unpredictable and therefore harder to take down.
And yet again when you extend to reengage does teach you something, it's called patience. Extending out isn't to run completely it's to gain enough seperation to even the odds when you reverse back in to the fight. Also if you don't know and understand how and when to disengage then whats the point of joining a furball? Do you just plan on getting as many kills as possible and then die when your bingo ammo or fuel? I'm assuming this makes some think that they are so much better cause they got alot of kills in one sortie and died or bailed. Thats where some differ from others. Conserving enough fuel and ammo and always leaving a way out is intelligent flying. Does it always happen, no. Should it be your primary goal, yes. If you can get into it but can't get out whats that say for your skills? Your in over your head and not thinking, thats it. Over time you'll not have to worry about thinking cause it'll become natural.
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thxs for the films its good for MA but not team play in the CT though I think.
They are quite interesting works of flying:aok
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dont have any issues, sorry didnt mean to offend you.
What im getting at is... once you know ACM you can use it in ANY plane. Once you know ACM you can move on to cherrypicking or BnZ if you prefer.
But if u get caught out, you can fight your way outta trouble because you have the practice to go back on. Makes a better all round AH player.
If you start off running from fights you will not get that experience and no doubt be clueless as to what to do when bounced.
Just trying to share my experience in AH, what i did worked ok for me.
No offence but anyone can monkey, bnz, cherrypick, run, its not hard - thats the easy bit. Learning to fight without doing the above is the hard bit. Get that out the way first and yer sorted.
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its cool I can use that furballing in the MA......
Just I am really looking for how to fly the plane set we now have... And with a wingman..... that way I can learn a better way of flying..... I know 2 v 1 is better odds... not 1v2.. I try to stay out of those situations unless forced into them...
Most of all in this new setup allies have the F4U and i like the plane.. I know you need to conserve E or should I say manage it.. but what tatics should I use and what should I not do????
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F4u is very good at speed, remember the gear can be used as airbrake too if u need to make anyone overshoot.
When im flying f4u in MA, i spiral climb up to 7 - 10k depending on alt of fight, pick a target out. anticipate where he will be (so not to pull G's to waste E trying to hit target), dive on him, attack, pull vert until you feel comfortable, level off, (dont lose control, as u get used to plane you will be able to level off at slower and slower speeds) pick another target and attack again.
I try to keep flying as vertical as possible. Get right above target so he does not have any escape routes, whichever way he breaks its just a quick roll for the f4u to get shot off.
I also like doing a feint attack on a target who keeps breaking low or something. to do this i just start the attack, i pull up as soon as i see him starting the evasives, roll inverted and keep my eye on him, as he is coming out of the move - then i hit him. It is likely he would have lost sight of you, has low E or both.
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cc Furball. I do agree with you though in a wayand I originally thought you may just being disrespectful, no hard feelings. Furballing/TnB will help you to learn how and when to use evasives. I started this game flying the Mk IX and doing pretty much all TnB. Though it's supposedly way overmodeled and such it does have its limits. And with flying it I've learned E conservation. Some may say it's because it's so easy to fly and is giving me false security. I beg to differ though.
With flying the Mk IX it's not as simple as some may think to avoid and defeat all pilots. Against the strongest pilots it's fairly easy to handle. Because it will burn energy fairly quickly in extended maneuvering it's hard to get chances to fire. Thats how I learned E management. Because I kept using hard evasives I could never get a shot. So I started relaxing a bit and only using the minimal amount of turning I needed to in order to avoid getting killed. Though I hadn't realized it I was stepping forward into learning the pros of energy and potential energy. Slowly I got better as I learned what I could and couldn't do. Constantly checking my indicators to find out just how much input i could use before I started to bleed off my speed. Now it's fairly easy to tell when I'm turning too much and when I'm not.
Basically what I'm getting at is yes I learned alot with exactly how your stating in your case. But had I had some of the knowledge I have now it may or may not have been slightly easier to excel in the ACM area. I think by knowing even some of the more advanced skills will help newer pilots to progress a bit faster. When they see and learn one thing they can start to implement it with some slightly more advanced. With every little extra thing they learn means that they will be progressing slightly faster than the next person. Which means the rest of us will have more challenges out there instead of the top 300 players or so that can hold there own or be considered more than just mediocre.
Overall the competition will be higher and to me more enjoyable. Plus no matter how you look at it over time these same topics will be sought out by other players wishing to advance there skills. With that the more knowledge and experience we as a whole community can provide will benefit us all at some point and time. There are too many really good sticks who fail to help others and give them insight to what they do wrong and what they do right. I just feel that we should start giving more and taking less.
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thankyou....
Both of you have been very helpful. and i am sorry I cam across as possible being disresptectful.. I am not trying to convey or be that way... just trying to learn....:) I flew for real when I was younger and done aerobatics alot but in this pc driven simulator and dog fighting its new. new tatics and manuvers... more than just not hitting the ground.:D
one observation is the P40... a Straight and level flyer... when in a dog fight 1on1 I have Bricks in the backyard that fly better than the P40 tha I can fly better...:D
I know with the allied planes you need alt and speed. they are heavier because of armor and they sometimes dont turn good.. but there are exceptions...
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Koot,
I should be on later tonight in the CT and would be glad to run through some F4U flights with you and the rest of VF-17. We typically fly the F4U when available in the CT and that is our only ride in the MA (except for a couple of FM2 guys).
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Koot I wasn't referring to you. I thought Furball was but have since found out differently.
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Originally posted by KootDawg
I know with the allied planes you need alt and speed. they are heavier because of armor and they sometimes dont turn good.. but there are exceptions...
This is why I said sometimes doing something the enemy doesnt expect by flying aggressively and turning when they think you will extend. This can also get you low and slow and dead, but it works quite often.
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Reschke i don't know if i will be on tonight but I will be on Sunday and monday night
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Originally posted by Reschke
Koot,
I should be on later tonight in the CT and would be glad to run through some F4U flights with you and the rest of VF-17. We typically fly the F4U when available in the CT and that is our only ride in the MA (except for a couple of FM2 guys).
You feelin' better, skipper? Phanny and I were flyin opfor last night (no ... we weren't tryin' to prove a point! Well ... ok ... we were, I guess). :D