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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on March 12, 2004, 09:39:01 AM

Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: GRUNHERZ on March 12, 2004, 09:39:01 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/11/mother.charged.ap/index.html

[SIZE=10]?[/SIZE]
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: lasersailor184 on March 12, 2004, 09:40:53 AM
State = Utah.  Doesn't mean anything to the rest of the US (Unfortunately).




But still, this woman needs to be shot for her selfishness...
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: gofaster on March 12, 2004, 09:45:49 AM
Quote
The doctors had warned that without a C-section, the twins would probably die, authorities said.


Key word: probably.

I'll probably participate in ToD tonight.  But if I get a phone call to partner up for a beach volleyball tournament tomorrow, I won't do ToD.  

Should be interesting for the prosecution to prove intent.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: narsus on March 12, 2004, 09:55:15 AM
Yup keyword = probably

Guess what, they were right.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: texace on March 12, 2004, 10:22:46 AM
Ok, now I have seen everything.

Not only will we a woman be charged for murder if a baby is aborted, but now she will be charged if a baby is stillborn or miscarried? What kind of screwed up BS is this?

C-sections are complicated and leave scars. Some women don't like them, and in this case they've got a right to refuse them. "Probably" is a very loose term here. You cannot charge murder on something you didn't know was going to happen, regardless of what the doctor says. It's the mother's choice...she shouldn't be held responsible for that.

Like I said in another thread...day by day we lose our freedoms...
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Eagler on March 12, 2004, 10:51:44 AM
"probably" is more likely to happen than not

she killed her babies, will she do time for it? I doubt it, after all they were just a couple of "fetus" right?
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: lasersailor184 on March 12, 2004, 10:57:24 AM
It's sort of like saying if you shoot someone in the head, they will probably die.  You expect the person not to shoot someone in the head.


But she fully understood the consequences of what would happen.  And now a life is taken when it shouldn't have been.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: aknimitz on March 12, 2004, 11:37:57 AM
This is a fascinating quandry, imho. I dont know if I am more amazed that she is actually being charged, or that she actually did it!

Its not a new concept to charge someone with murder for a festus that far along in pregnancy, a la Scott Peterson. But what is interesting (and already previously mentioned) is causation. I suspect it will be very difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubhtbeyond a reasonable doubht that the fetus would have survived with the C-Section.

I wouldnt convict her if I was a juror.

Nim
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Holden McGroin on March 12, 2004, 12:22:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by texace
Ok, now I have seen everything.

Not only will we a woman be charged for murder if a baby is aborted,...

C-sections are complicated and leave scars.


Scott Peterson has 2 counts of murder against him, one for his wife, and one for his unborn son.  An unborn child is a victim of murder in California..... yet.....abortion.....

C sections are probably the oldest form of surgery and they are relatively simple.  They are known as Cesarean because legend has it Julius Cesar was delivered in that way and is fairly common in farm animal veterinary.  I have seen a few as a boy on the family ranch and I think I could pull it off and save the cow. The initial surgery and actual delivery took less than 30 seconds.  Sewing up the incision took a couple of minutes.  The clean up was the hardest part.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Sixpence on March 12, 2004, 12:32:35 PM
Burn the witch
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Thud on March 12, 2004, 12:39:58 PM
Of course there isn't any difference between a woman who is convinced she won't be able to provide an acceptable life for her child and someone who does not want the inconvenience of a scar on her belly. Sure...
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Eagler on March 12, 2004, 12:48:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thud
Of course there isn't any difference between a woman who is convinced she won't be able to provide an acceptable life for her child and someone who does not want the inconvenience of a scar on her belly. Sure...


in a huge way no - both selfish beyond words

please define "an acceptable life "

so since the mother is "convinced" she can not, will not, and won't ever be able to provide such a life, she gives no life at all ...

or maybe it is she doesn't want accept the responsibility of her actions, to hassle with a child, heck it might cramp her style, slow her down alittle, horrors she might get fat and stretch out some with those ugly lines and all -can't have that - suck jr out - QUICK! :rolleyes:
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: texace on March 12, 2004, 12:49:08 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. :aok

Some people don't want C-sections. She could have been someone going for the all natural thing. Isn't there a religion that bans the use of unnatural things for childbirth?
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Scatcat on March 12, 2004, 12:49:52 PM
I think she should find her self a trial lawyer and sue that *@M$ doctor for not holding her down and forceably doing that c-sec. Cause that baby would be alive and healthy today if he would have. Then she wouldn't have to suffer emotionally for the loss of the child :rolleyes:
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: gofaster on March 12, 2004, 12:52:15 PM
Quote
"We are unable to find any reason other than the cosmetic motivations" for the mother's decision, said Kent Morgan, spokesman for the district attorney.


You guys shouldn't be so quick to convict.  Notice how its the prosecution that's saying the scars were her motivation, not her.  Hey, Mr. DA, how about no surgery because she wanted a natural birth the way God intended?  People have refused surgery for religious reasons, but funny how that motivation isn't mentioned in the article.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Thrawn on March 12, 2004, 01:36:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Scatcat
I think she should find her self a trial lawyer and sue that *@M$ doctor for not holding her down and forceably doing that c-sec.


And if she died due to complications caused by the c-section?


Quote
Cause that baby would be alive and healthy today if he would have.


You don't know that.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Thud on March 12, 2004, 03:02:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
in a huge way no - both selfish beyond words

please define "an acceptable life "

so since the mother is "convinced" she can not, will not, and won't ever be able to provide such a life, she gives no life at all ...

or maybe it is she doesn't want accept the responsibility of her actions, to hassle with a child, heck it might cramp her style, slow her down alittle, horrors she might get fat and stretch out some with those ugly lines and all -can't have that - suck jr out - QUICK! :rolleyes:


I simply can't believe that anyone truly believes that they are the same. Not regarding the inability to love and provide on an acceptable level as a justified reason for abortion is one thing, you sure can't be serious that you percept it in the same way as someone who is afraid their in-bikini image might be tarnished a bit????
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Thud on March 12, 2004, 03:13:48 PM
Overlooked the request for elaborating on the 'acceptable'...

I believe that even when someone feels that she got stuck with the baby against her will AND is not willing or able to overcome that severe negative association she will never be able to develop into a loving, caring mother... the child in question has extremely poor perspectives toward a childhood which forms a good support for his/her further life. Ergo, knowingly introducing a child into an environment where it is unwanted, unloved, not cared for and unsupported is in my opinion not desirable, even to the extent that it could justify an abortion.

That does obviously not reflect your interpretation of 'not acceptable', but I am sure that there are situations that do (a seropositive junkie who's expecting). More importantly, it underlines that any objective, reasonable person could never regard an abortion for this reason similar to that of keeping ones esthetics on par.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: AKIron on March 12, 2004, 04:10:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thud
I simply can't believe that anyone truly believes that they are the same. Not regarding the inability to love and provide on an acceptable level as a justified reason for abortion is one thing, you sure can't be serious that you percept it in the same way as someone who is afraid their in-bikini image might be tarnished a bit????


They are the same. Both are the woman's choice right? Does any woman that desires an abortion have to justify her reason?
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Thud on March 12, 2004, 04:14:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
They are the same. Both are the woman's choice right? Does any woman that desires an abortion have to justify her reason?


No woman has to justify an abortion to me, I do however form an opinion on her motivations to do so. I am pro choice, but the step to terminate a potential life should not be taken lightly.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: AKIron on March 12, 2004, 04:15:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thud
No woman has to justify an abortion to me, I do however form an opinion on her motivations to do so. I am pro choice, but the step to terminate a potential life should not be taken lightly.


I agree but the law does not require it to be so.


If we weren't killing babies, er, fetuses by the millions every year I'd say they might get a conviction. However, her "crime" is insignificant in perspective. I wouldn't convict.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: SOB on March 12, 2004, 05:27:52 PM
Great, so now it's not OK to make medical choices for yourself.  At least it happened in SLC, so it's not that much of a shocker.

BTW...This situation sounds a lot like Darwin in action.  Doctors just weren't allowed to intervene and override nature's decision.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: LAWCobra on March 12, 2004, 05:41:58 PM
How freekin stupid!
The give a woman the right to abort her unborn child but no right in how it will be born LOL

What a crock:rofl
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Kevin14 on March 12, 2004, 06:09:37 PM
Boy, how I would hate to be the delivery doctor (http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/US/West/03/11/mother.charged.ap/story.rowland.ap.jpg)  Meh
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: SOB on March 12, 2004, 08:08:39 PM
Try shooting a couple of grapefruits out of your donut, then have the cops drag you into jail and see how nice your picture turns out.  ;)
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: LAWCobra on March 12, 2004, 09:05:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Try shooting a couple of grapefruits out of your donut, then have the cops drag you into jail and see how nice your picture turns out.  ;)


LOL:rofl :rofl
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Eagler on March 13, 2004, 12:35:57 AM
yes, with a face like that I can clearly see why she would be worried about a scar on her stomach :rolleyes:
Title: Re: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: JB73 on March 13, 2004, 02:01:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
[SIZE=10]?[/SIZE]
and your question is?!?!?!

how much watermelon can you stir with this?
answer= more than  you need


is this wright or wrong?
answer= you gave no opinion....

 so what answer do you want to hear?


what do liberals think?
answer= you probably have that by now being an experianced reader of this board


what do conservatives think?
answer= you probably have that by now being an experianced reader of this board

how many posts can you get from this?
answer= more than you deserve for the "ripsnort-&-paste"™ post
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Vulcan on March 13, 2004, 03:44:09 PM
Meh, how long before masturbating is considered mass-murder and the everyone from AH BBS is a fugitive from justice!
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Shuckins on March 13, 2004, 10:32:40 PM
Be careful boys...we're on a slippery slope with this one.

Regards, Shuckins
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: lasersailor184 on March 13, 2004, 11:22:29 PM
It's as simple as this.  She let someone die for her cosmetic purposes only.

And before you say anything, since the doctors were willing to perform a C-section, they knew that the babies would survive, hence they are living people, not fetuses.



You make of it as you wish.
Title: So causing the death of babies in the womb is murder after all?
Post by: Stoned Gecko on March 13, 2004, 11:39:40 PM
They put this woman in jail because she didn't want to cut herself? That's bull$h1t.