Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Wanker on August 28, 2000, 04:10:00 PM
-
Now that I have the disclaimer out of the way...
As an American, my opinion is biased from the start, so I admit I'm not completely objective in these type of discussions. Remember, too, that my maternal grandfather was killed in action against the Germans in WW2, and my Paternal grandfather was involved in the strategic bombing of Germany, as a chin and waist gunner on a B-17G in 1944-45.
I consider myself a fair person, and I always try to look at both sides of an argument. But when I see some people who seem to "worship" the LW pilots of WW2, this gives me cause for pause.
It seems to me that on this BBS, we have many people who are trying to get us to "see the light" and see the LW pilots as human beings, and not as puppets of Hitler's regime. For this, I salute them. Those LW pilots were indeed human beings with mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, and children. Most, if not all of them, were highly educated and intelligent. Regular people, like you and me.
Granted, the LW pilots of WW2 fought bravely and valiantly to save their country from destruction. I admire their skill and tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
But, think about the cause they were fighting for. Hitler, and therefore Germany, were out to enslave the world. So, how can you say that the German LW was simply there to defend Germany, when in fact they were used as instruments of agressive war? Sure, they eventually did end up only trying to defend German soil, but that's only after most of the rest of the world banded together to stop them.
I know that someone has to play the Germans in AH, or we wouldn't be able to have historical fights. In fact, I like flying the German planes. But, there are some here who have gone to the next level, and seem to worship the LW pilots, and what they stood for.
We all know that the LW pilots were very dedicated to their country, if not their leaders. One thing I've never heard about in all these discussions, was whether the pilots of the LW supported the goals of the German high command or the government? Did Galland or Moelders or Hartmann think it would be good to conquer England and Russia?
I have my own opinions about these questions, and I think you can probably figure out what they are. But, I'm willing to listen and learn.
As I strap on my flame-retardant jumpsuit, I simply ask that you keep the discussion to the real issues, and don't use personal attacks. I'll try to do the same.
-
The only way to operate the chin turret on B-17Gs was to be in the forward compartment, home of the bombadier and navigator, both officers.
Sooo..... whats it gonna be, officer material or just a plain old run-o-the-mill enlisted/drafted gunner?
thanks in advance,
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
German soldiers in WW2 fought a war of conquest against the people of western Europe and a war of enslavement and extinction against the people of eastern Europe.
Regardless of their personal reasons for being involved in this war, the fact is that the soldiers of Nazi Germany were on the side of evil. Whether or not they were members of the Nazi party or believers in the Nazi cause, they were carrying out the orders of the Nazi leadership. And they deserved everything they got, regardless of rank or branch of service.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
Agree banana 100%
I enjoy flying LW aircraft very much but am troubled by people who seem to admire the LW pilots so much.
-
I thought that was pretty well balanced banana. I get the impression also that ya felt you needed to temper your real feelings on this for fear of the automatic bashing a viewpoint like that seems to get around here.
I'm no expert on the history of the LW by any means, but through reading some of the posts here one gets the sense that all the LW did was merely protect women and children from falling bombs. A fair bit of revisionism going on lately I reckon...
-
I wonder how many real nazis play this game.
-
Originally posted by banana:
Those LW pilots were indeed human beings with mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, and children. Most, if not all of them, were highly educated and intelligent. Regular people, like you and me.
I'm no history expert but I believe the Germans before the war and during was some of the most educated people in the world more so than the general population of America. I'd guess their education system is still better than the US still to this date.
Originally posted by banana:
But, think about the cause they were fighting for. Hitler, and therefore Germany, were out to enslave the world. So, how can you say that the German LW was simply there to defend Germany, when in fact they were used as instruments of agressive war? Sure, they eventually did end up only trying to defend German soil, but that's only after most of the rest of the world banded together to stop them.
The way I understand it, Germany and many other countries FORCE you to be in the military. You do not have a say so in what you are told to do, and can be shot on sight for not doing what your told. I believe many countries are still this way. If this were to happen in America the families of these soldiers would make millions on our lame court system. Can you say Jerry Springer?
Originally posted by banana:
We all know that the LW pilots were very dedicated to their country, if not their leaders. One thing I've never heard about in all these discussions, was whether the pilots of the LW supported the goals of the German high command or the government? Did Galland or Moelders or Hartmann think it would be good to conquer England and Russia?
Would their opinion have made a difference? It's unlikely they could have acted on their feelings to the point of changing much on their own.
The reason I like the German machines:
From Engineering stand point their equipment was top notch. If the world had not depleted their resources their Engineers would have had bombers flying to New York and back without refueling. I've lived in several different countries but I'm a American born in Dallas, Texas, I've never owned a truck in my life and since the time I could drive I've always drove a German or Japanese car, why? Because of the craftsmanship, no other reason, I don't hate trucks or have family members that make them, it's just my preference. If I was raised in Detroit or some other city where making cars/trucks was a way of life I might have felt a little differently.
I do like what I have in America and I’m grateful for the vets that have helped defend the American way. It’s too bad that most of the US vets fought for a much different country and some of us younger Americans are ruining what they fought for.
Just my opinions…
Mox
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
Not to simply play devil's advocate, but, I've been thinking a lot about the original post and have the following to offer...
#1 - I believe that one reason why some people seemingly 'worship' the German LuftWaffe pilots is because of the culture in present-day America, not the culture in WWII Germany.
There are many similarities between the adoration and reverence shown LW pilots and the attention and fanaticism shown for modern American professional athletes. Regardless of what you believe or know about someone personally, there is a part of American culture that separates moral judgment from objective respect and admiration for people who are the best at what they do.
How many modern-day athletes can you name who are unbelievably gifted and talented at their chosen sport, but whose personal lives are so twisted and pathetic that you would not let that person date your own daughter. Again and again, the newspaper headlines sport references to the latest athlete to be convicted of spousal abuse, armed robbery, drug trafficking, hate crimes, etc, etc, etc. Yet, that same athlete will be fighting off scores of fans at the next game who are lined up seeking autographs.
Americans are adept at separating their own moral convictions from their respect and awe for the best of the best.
That said, many people would argue that pound for pound, there has never been a collection of aircraft fighter pilots like the German LW. The highest kill records in the history of aviation belong to LW pilots. There are many reasons why, but the bottom line is that they were probably the best.
Some people have awe and respect for German LW pilots just like some others still ask OJ Simpson for his autograph.
#2 - Another reason for the worship of the LW pilots is less complicated, and less perplexing. The anti-social anarchist troll boy.
Some people know that German Nazis were so evil, so incredibly unholy that to do anything similar to praising them or worshiping them will cause people to become upset and angry.
Simply put...some people glorify Nazi German, LW pilots, in order to get a rise out of the rest of us.
#3 - Mystery.
In my book, I am fascinated by Nazi Germany for one simple reason - mystery. How on earth could such a group of modern thinking, educated people be lured and drawn into Hitler's sick twisted plot? What is it about them that is different from me? Could it happen again?
German pilots...some with kill scored of 200+, 300+, flew their planes with a sense of mission and purpose that is hard to fathom. The black-leather wearing Nazi fighter pilots, flying in tight formation saying their "Heil Hitler" and "This is for the father-land" are simply stupifying.
There are very few categories of people in the history of combat that hold such an infamous position. The Japanese Zero pilots. The Nazi fighter pilots. Several of the Native American tribes known and feared for their ferocious style of war. The Spartans, The Mongol Hordes, etc.
Sociologically, they are fascinating and that is probably why some people seem to worship them. I doubt its worship, its probably more accurate to say they are simply fascinated.
-
JoeMud,
None, I’d expect. There aren’t any swastikas in AH.
This whole ongoing “debate” reminds me of an interview I once saw/read. It was with a German man who was a survivor of the RAF’s raids on Hamburg. He described how a few months before the raids, he had attended a rally with Goebbels (spelling?) as the main speaker. Goebbels had extorted the crowd for total war, something like “We need total war to win. Do you want total war? DO YOU WANT TOTAL WAR!?”. He specifically said “total war”. The German many ended the interview with the statement “Goebbels got his total war, just not how he expected it”.
Basically the Germans started something they couldn’t finish. It wasn’t nice of the Allies to reply in kind, but war is not about being nice.
“War is all Hell”
-General William Tecumseh Sherman
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Originally posted by banana:
It seems to me that on this BBS, we have many people who are trying to get us to "see the light" and see the LW pilots as human beings, and not as puppets of Hitler's regime. For this, I salute them. Those LW pilots were indeed human beings with mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, and children. Most, if not all of them, were highly educated and intelligent. Regular people, like you and me.
Granted, the LW pilots of WW2 fought bravely and valiantly to save their country from destruction. I admire their skill and tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
So far ,so good. Up to this point I have nothing to disagree with.
But, think about the cause they were fighting for. Hitler, and therefore Germany, were out to enslave the world. So, how can you say that the German LW was simply there to defend Germany, when in fact they were used as instruments of agressive war? Sure, they eventually did end up only trying to defend German soil, but that's only after most of the rest of the world banded together to stop them.
I know that someone has to play the Germans in AH, or we wouldn't be able to have historical fights. In fact, I like flying the German planes. But, there are some here who have gone to the next level, and seem to worship the LW pilots, and what they stood for.
We all know that the LW pilots were very dedicated to their country, if not their leaders. One thing I've never heard about in all these discussions, was whether the pilots of the LW supported the goals of the German high command or the government? Did Galland or Moelders or Hartmann think it would be good to conquer England and Russia?
I have my own opinions about these questions, and I think you can probably figure out what they are. But, I'm willing to listen and learn.
As I strap on my flame-retardant jumpsuit, I simply ask that you keep the discussion to the real issues, and don't use personal attacks. I'll try to do the same.
Sorry but this is IMHO an unfair argument.In 1930s germany had the OBLIGATORY militar service. so you HAD to go to the armed forces for a while ,regardless you wanted it or not.
Other thing was to be a career officer. When you chose to be a militar, you give an oath. An oath that consist in obeying orders from superiors, to stand and defend your country's interests...but you DONT choose those interests. Germany had a long long tradition of military rules, the prussian military code was very present in wehrmatch and,by extension, in all German armed forces in 1939.
In 1939 Hitler started a war of agression. I repeat HITLER started a war of agression. Not the man who had to go in the van of the german forces over Poland, France or Norway. HITLER. The militar machine obeyed, as it was their chief of state who had to chose what was the best for the country. In spain we have a sentence for this:
"donde manda capitan no manda marinero"
or
"where the Captain rules, the sailor has nothing to say"-------->more or less ,not literal translation.
Here is the same. Hitler ordered the attacks, and the german OKW followed his orders. THere was a lot of concern in 1939 as the high officers knew that Germany wasnt in a good condition to start a war. Even France invasion succeeded because a plan designed by Manstein (and one wich credit went for hitler) and that most german generals felt it was nothing but a suicide. Still they obeyed. THey were german army officers and they had to follow their leader's orders.
Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine saw the same thing. Luftwaffe officers had very personal views about Goering's qualities to be their high commander (the laugh between LW pilots about the Grand Cross awarded to goering by hitler after France Campaign was apocalyptic). In fact all of them knew that Goering was a sick morphine addict, uncapable of commanding anything. Still they followed his orders, because,sick or not, their duty was to follow their high commander's orders.
After France Hitler earned divine reputation in Germany (Goebbels did his work very well, that for sure), but between army circles there was a quite ironical view about his qualities as strategic mind. Dunkirk fiasco was only responsability of Hitler and Goering, because when the advance was stopped, there was only a battallion opposing 2 panzer divisions. When the attack was restarted, there was a tight defensive circle around the port and beaches.
In 1941 KM Bismarck and KM Prinz eugen found HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales. The story is very well known, in their 4 or 5th salvo, Bismarck blew Hood up. What is less known is that PoW,having suffered a terrible hit in the conning tower, came to less than 10.000 yards of Bismarck and P.E., amd that when it was realized that the ship wasnt able to keep the fight, it turned away between a smoke layer. Anyone commanding Bismarck would have followed and finished the battered PoW. But Lutjens had strict orders from Hitler of not pressing combat against enemy battleships, regardless the situation, so instead of using his better speed to kill PoW, he left her move away. Lutjens was a convinced antinazi, still he obeyed a clearly faulty order.
In BoB german fighters were ordered to stay close to their escorted bombers. While it may have saved many bombers, it gave RAF a big relief in the worse moment, too. No JG commander agreed with that order, still they obeyed.
The only german commander that I know who jumped over the orders was Erwin Rommel in 1941. After reconquering all cyrenaica except Tobruk, Runstedt asked Hitler to court martial him, because he had not followed the orders issued to him!!! (to stay in the defensive). Rommel was hitler's favorite general and so,and because his stunning success, he saved his skin...but very narrowly.
In summer 1941, Guderian and Hoth Panzer armies were running towards Moscow with few oposition left after Smolensk. Hitler ordered the panzer armies to stop their advance over Moscow and then he ordered Hoth to go North to assist the siege of Leningrad and Guderian to go South to assist the kiev pocket. Both things were a mosntruous mistake, for the panzer forces had little to aport to those operations and Moscow was the vital centre of USSR defense (politic centre, communications centre, and railroad centre). Guderian actively called for an advance over Moscow, but Hitler's directive was clear. He obeyed, still knowing that it could seal the fate of the attack on the USSR...as happened. In december 1941 German advance stalled on the suburbs of moscow after 2 months of infernal fighting to win a land that could have been won at a much lesser cost only 6 weeks before.
What do I want to say with all this?...that when Germany was in the offensive the civil population had Hitler in an altar. Goebbels did all he could (and was a lot) to make it true. But the german armed forces,at least the high circles, knew they were leaded by a foolish pseudostratega. They were officers,still, and they had to follow their duty. And they did it.
The foot soldier knew the same as the civilian, what propaganda told him. Still I am quite sure that they would have been much happier in their home town with their girfriends, instead of being in Hot North Africa, cold Russia, or Partisan-full Greece or yugoslavia.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
Very dangerous discussion to start here on the AH main BBS... plz stop it. We are people from many countries here, we should concentrate on what we have in common,- our interest in planes and history.
------------------
GrinBird
-
One thing to keep in mind. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Perplexingly, most of the time the person doing evil believes that they are doing good or the right thing. Whatever action they are taking for whatever reason, in that persons mind they are not doing evil.
The perpespective of evil is just that, a perspective.
From my perspective what the Nazi's did was evil. Most of the world might certainly agree with me.
But...
I am sure, at that time they thought that they were doing good and the right thing. That was their perspective.
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"OUCH!!! It hurts to bite your tongue."
Popeye
-
These are exactly the kind of discussions that people need to have.
Flying a German fighter against a Spitfire has more depth and meaning if you understand what it really meant to the people who were there.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...
-
When the allies occupied germany, They could only find aabout 5 guys that said they were nazi,s. And they were quick to claim the devil made them do it. I find it impossible to understand how one man can fight the intire world by himself.
Unless they were complete nit wits, each man, in his turn, must have chosen to help hitler.
-
hi banana:
well to start with, it was a differant time, poeple and country's way of thinking was differant.
now as far as the LW pilots, they did attack and bomb citys killing woman and childern, but
then so did the allied forces, it was a time of war. but wheather the LW pilots beleived what
they where doing as right or wrong does not matter, they beleived in there country, the very
same way people beleive in there country's today.
now one thing that I have never seen here in the BB, is the fact that it was the LW pilots that
where in command of the POW camps, and the LW pilots did not care much for the SS.
the POW's in those camps where not badly treated do to the fact that it was the LW pilots
that commanded the POW camps. if it had been the SS that commanded the camps it would
have been a lot worse for the POW's.
the LW pilots had a great deal of respect for the allied pilots that they fought, and tried to
make it easy for those allied pilots that where shot down and captured, and that spent the rest
of the war in the POW camps.
now some thing else to point out, every body talks about the fact that it was germany that
started WWII, and well yes it was. but look back through time and at all the wars in man
kinds history and who started what war, who did what to who. look at how the english
treated the scotts way back when, the spanish inquodtions, the french and there wars. nobody
has a clean past, it has been in the last 40 to 50 years that man kind has started to find better
ways to deal with there differant's. but it seems that the small amount of people in this
game/sim that still have a problem with the germany of 1939 is a good example of how far
we as a race still have to go before we can put the hatered and anger behind us. I too had
family that fought in WWII with the allied forces. maybe in another 50 years the anger and
hatered will be gone, but im sure there will always be somebody to hate, it seems to be in our
nature.
the best thing to do is try and leave the politics out of the game, and just have fun. I do
beleive that is what the idea of this game/sim is all about.
see you in the skies
------------------
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
-
Mino I love you man but that is a bunch of baloney. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Let's put the politics aside for a moment and consider this from one of the posters:
>>That said, many people would argue that pound for pound, there has never been a collection of aircraft fighter pilots like the German LW. The highest kill records in the history of aviation belong to LW pilots. There are many reasons why, but the bottom line is that they were probably the best.<<
This argument leads nowhere. Does the poster mean that the LW pilots were somehow genetically superior to anyone else? Or does he only mean better trained? Or more experienced? Or, perhaps, more fanatical? Or, all of the above.
It might be possible to show that the LW recruiting standards in the 1933-39 period were more stringent than in most countries. It is a fact that the experience that the LW got in the Spanish Civil War was a significant factor in their success early in the war. (For those not up on the Spanish Civil War...this conflict was a watershed moment for air combat. The introduction of the Me-109 spelled the end to the WW1 concept of individual 'turn and burn' dogfights between small, lightly armed, highly maneuverable fighters. The LW Me-109 operations proved the ascendancy of the high speed, heavily armed, radio-equipped fighter force that operated in tactical formations.)
When WW2 began, the British and French air forces had none of the experience that the LW had. While their aircraft may have been relatively equal to the LW fighters, their pilot experience levels were not. Throughout 1939 and 1940, the learning curve was steep and costly...but it was learned.
As a matter of debate, if I had to rate an air force strictly on dogfighting skills at the beginning of WW2, I'd give the nod to the Japanese...for all of the reasons given above. Better selection process, better training, plenty of experience in China and Manchuria, and good equipment. A face off between the 1940 LW and the Japanese Army and Navy pilots would be an interesting situation. I would not want to predict which would come out on top.
On a final note...I taught LW pilots in the F-104 during the 70s...both new pilots right out of pilot training...and experienced pilots in the F-104 Fighter Weapons School. I'm here to tell you that Germans are no better or worse than anyone else....some good, some bad...most in the middle.
The answer is not in some racial superiority ballyhoo...it is instead in experience levels, numerical superiority, and better tactical doctrine.
Andy
[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
Karnak you might want to check out the BF109G2.
-
There is more also.
There were Russians who fought for Germany, not because they were Anti-Russia, Pro-Germany, or Pro-Hitler, or NAZI's or Aryans. They were Anti-Communist. Many of the French Pilots in the Normandie Niemen flew with the Russians because they were Socialist or Communists, and Anti-Fascists, and didn't have Democratic or Monarchiacal leanings. THere were Russians captured at Ohmaha beach on D-Day. The French fought against the Americans and English, as well as along side them.
And what is not mentioned is that the German people were either brainwashed or intimidated into the whole NAZI/Aryan thing. There were many Anti-Facists in Germany before and during WWII and a lot of them got Burned up in the Ovens along side the Hebrews and the Homosexuals.
A lot of the professional officers in the German Military were following the orders of their political leaders. Toward the end of the war, they were attempting to get the Americans and British to help them fight against the Russians.
In China the Communists made up the larger part of the trained and organized forces that actually resisted the Japanese where the Warlords and the (I hesitate to say) Democratic people fought, argued, or abscended.
If were as simple as Black and White, good versus evil, Axis and Allies there would be no discussion, but it wasn't that simple. There were 1st and 2nd Generation Americans who had emigrated from Germany in the U.S. Army fighting against the Germans. Germany had nearly as large a population of Resistance fighters as France. There is quite a bit of evidence that a very organized group of German Industrialist and bankers organized via the Swiss the defeat of Germany(Hitler) and the Reconstruction of Germany (at least on the Allied Side.) I have seen de-classified documents of this organization that were in Washington many months prior to D-Day.
Hartmann's Father told him that day that Germany declared war on the U.S. that the war was lost.
From reading his book I don't get the impression that Hartmann was much impressed with Hitler, of course that may have been editorialized for the "Cold War" media, but it seemed pretty sincere.
Yes there were Ranting Nazi Lunatics in the Cockpits of 109s, but there was also Soldiers defending their native soil, people who believed that they were doing something that would benifit their nation, and by extention their families.
When U.S. Forces went to Vietnam and Korea you know that a lot of men patted their sons on their shoulders and and said "Son, it's your turn to defend democracy and freedom."
Tell me why we fought Iraq for Kuwait? Tell me that the U.S. is a just nation that does not wrong, and that our soldiers improve the situation and make the world a better place.
Look at Vietnam, still healing after nearly 30 years. How are things in Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Korea? Are they better today than they were before we went to war for/over them?
My own respect, and I am in no way a Luftwaffe Pilot Fanatic, is in the accomplishments of the men who day in and day out went up against over whelming odds, and survived and in some cases exceeded expectations.
And like Zigrat, I love planes, many of the WWII Era German aircraft have a mystique that is attractive. They are not un-appealing aircraft to look at. I find the P-40 the most attractive of all WWII Era Aircraft and you would be hard pressed to name one thing that is was the best at.
I would prefer to keep politics out of my "FLIGHT SIMS" but they occasionally rear their ugly heads, when that happens the best I can hope for is a reasoned discussion, or an entertaing flame war.
------------------
(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
-
The initial point made up here has been worrying more people, I've 'heard' quite some comments on it on the bb.
I personally think that it's very dangerous and sad if the LW pilots of WWII are considered great brave knights who faced overwhelming odds etc.. If someone thinks this of WWI pilots I tend to agree a bit more but in WWII they defended and were a vital and willing part in the Nazi war machinery.
I personally like to fly LW planes as well but anyone who identifies himself with and sympathizes with the LW pilots has no historical conscience and is morally sick (or has extremely pathetic political sympathies).
So let's all enjoy AH and show some decency in your statements on the bb and in the air
Bies
-
Well, I think its pretty clear that German pilots were better than anyone they were up against.
Unfortunately, Germany isnt anywhere near the Pacific. So comparing Germans to Japanese is pretty unimportant.
The German LW pilots of the 1970 are also pretty unimportant as it relates to the point of my post. I was generally talking about German LW pilots from WWII, since that is the game we all play, and the point of this message board.
So...applying some logic and context, what my post says is that in the European theatre, the Germans had the best pilots.
Everyone gets a big woody when they hear about some American or Brit pilot with 15 or 20 kills. 15 or 20 kills is nothing compared to 200-300+ kills that some of the LW pilots had racked up.
I don't know what hat you pulled a genetic superiority overtone from...it sure wasn't from my post. I suggest you go troll somewhere else. This is a post about trying to understand why some people seemingly worship the LW pilots. My point was simple - because some people think they were the best. In fact, for their time and location, I think they were the best. They had a hell of a lot more experience than did their British, French, American, Polishand other adversaries.
The LW pilots of WWII fought for years, almost never retiring, and on many fronts. New Pilots was a luxury that Germany lost as time went on. In those many years, having the opportunity to fight close to home, on many fronts, against many different types of pilots and aircraft, i think its only logical that after all that, they would be the best pilots walking around in that neck of the woods.
So, coming back to the post that my post was in response to, I think that some people worship the WWII LW pilots because of their flying skill and experience, pure and simple. I seriously doubt that many of the people who have their clans named after LW flight groups, or people who build German aircraft models, or people who have Nazi items as collectibles agree with the Nazi philosophy and mantra.
As much as there were German pilots who showed respect for a skilled foe by not shooting down his chute, by allowing him to ditch in the water, etc, it should also be ok for non-German pilots to show some respect for the flying skills of their German adversaries.
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 08-28-2000).]
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
dbcooper,
You might want to read up on your Finnish history.
That is not a swastika. It is an old Finnish symbol that was in use for many years before Nazi Germany existed. It has nothing to do with Nazi Germany or Nazi beliefs.
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Botabing,
Johnnie Johnson had a good retort to your suggestion.
When asked why he only got 38 kills when the German pilots racked up hundreds he replied "Because I didn't see that many enemy aircraft through the whole war".
If the Allies had been in the same "Target-Rich-Environment", e.g. losing, as the Germans were, there would certainly have been British, Russian, Commonwealth or American pilots with hundreds of kills.
Before you can score like a German, Japanese or Finnish pilot you have to have enough targets with which to score.
Personally I think that there would be little to chose between J.E. Johnson, H. Nishizawa, F. Gabreski, Hartman, A. Galland, A. Mallan, Boyinton, S. Sakai,and R.R.S. Tuck.
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Karnak
Totally agree. Germans were the most accomplished because of opportunity, in my opinion. I don't claim to be a historian, but I know enough about numbers to say this much.
All things being equal, the German pilots with 200-300 kills were no better skilled than the American and British pilots with 25-40 kills, etc.
But, I think that just adds to the fire of the original post. Like it or not, 300+ kills is infinitely more impressive than anything pumped out by an allied pilot.
Any pilot who has been alive and flying long enough to get 300+ kills would be feared. There's not enough room on the plane for all the kill stickers.
So, for those people who are fascinated by the 300+ kill LW pilot, they apparently are able to divorce themselves from the fact that it was 300+ kills advancing the Nazi cause. Just like someone who goes and gets a signature from OJ Simpson, an American athlete who murdered his ex-wife and her boyfriend, etc.
[This message has been edited by BotaBing (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
Jesus I hate even stepping into this thread, but since Andy posted, I'll jump in too. For the record: I'm with Grinbird, this is a subject that can be debated intelligently, but only by the coolest of heads in the most mutually respectful atmosphere. This BBS (any BBS), contains neither.
To understand the motivations of the German people, and the environment that created and fostered Adolph Hitler and the murderous gangsters who were the Nazi Party, you must take into account WWI, the Treaty of Versailles, and the conditions which existed in Germany in the late 1920's. If you kick a man (or a nation) while he's down, when he gets back up, he's going to really want to kick your prettythang. A simple analogy I grant you, but accurate, I think. The Marshall Plan and the United Nations were both created specifically to ensure that the mistakes of Versailles were not duplicated.
As to the quality of the German Luftwaffe and it's pilots, I think one needs to understand that 1930's Germany was a 'Nation of Flyers' unlike any other. State sponsored gliding schools were everywhere, youth was encouraged to participate at little or no cost in flying and gliding programs of all types. Please don't take my word for it, or even the German's word for it, read the writings of Eric Brown (a German-speaking British test pilot). This ensured that the Luftwaffe would have a large of pool of aviation-minded recruits.
Andy is correct in pointing out the influence of the Spanish Civil War. While the Russians also participated in this conflict in similar numbers, it was the Germans (notably Werner Molders and Gunther Lutzow) who learned the most from it. I think the number of German pilots who actually participated in the War was something on the order of 200, but their experience was invaluable, and widely disseminated among the Luftwaffe.
So, when WWII began, the Luftwaffe (like the Wehrmacht) had good equipment and a superior tactical system, which went far to offset the fact that they were outnumbered in every conflict after Poland. This accounts for their success, and nothing else does. As the War progressed, other nations adopted the same tactical system, with better equipment, pilots, and vastly superior numbers. To quote Napoleon: "God fights on the side of the big battalions".
I had the chance to work with some West German armored units back in the late 1980's when there were still 2 Germanies. Like Andy, I found them to be good soldiers: some brilliant, some dullards most in-between. Pretty much like every other group of Soldiers I've ever met.
I feel that I have to mention that among all the many other plots to overthrow and/or assasinate Hitler before the War, there was a near mutiny among the German General Staff when they were required to swear an oath of allegiance to Adolph Hitler personally in addition to their oath to the German State. In the end, they decided to follow their orders and serve their country. They were wrong to do so, but that is an easy thing to say in the year 2000, and a difficult choice for any honorable soldier to face.
It is extremely easy to demonize the Luftwaffe and indeed the German people for WWII. It is, for many, just as easy to lionize them. Both stances are wrong. One must be able to put oneself in the shoes of the average German in that time to understand the reasons why, and the lesson to be taken is that such conditions, and such resulting madness, must never be allowed to happen again.
No one hates War as much as a Soldier, because only a Soldier truly understands what War is.
------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
-
Guess I'm missing something.
When I click to the P-38, Spit, 109 or Zeke...All I'm looking for is that my induced electrons over power their induced electrons.
-
and this is why I idolize the 332nd Fighter Group of the 15th Air Force. They fought two wars, one against nazi germany and one against racial segregation. They didn't lose a single bomber they escorted to enemy fighters either. I don't care about kill records(anyone cared to look up how many times some of the LW guys with high scores got shot down?), they did their job and they did it well. Those are some true american heros.
(tries his best to hijack thread) :-)
EDIT: I flew in the WarBirds recreation of a tuskegee airmen escort mission. That was a freaking blast. I think there were even some of the original pilots flying from a place in Seattle, Washington called "The Other Side".. that was a blast! :-)
-SW
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
Points.
I think that the rabid luft wabble is a very rare thing in Aces High.
Giving the benifit of the moral doubt to the individual LW flyers is one thing. Giving it collectivly to the General staff is another. The General staff knew exactly who they were getting in bed with in the mid 30s. They just assumed they could control Hitler. Much as Neville Chamberlain did.
Implying that the Germans were just confused about their viewpoint is kinda offensive to me. Please read "Hitlers willing executioners"
While I would say that the top allied aces were the equal of any pilots in the war, I believe that it is a mistake to assume that they would have racked up hundereds of kills if the situation was reversed. The skills that make you successfull over hundereds of air battles are not neccesarily the ones that make you successful for dozens. I present macdonald as an example. Not that some allied pilots would not have been as successfull. But I believe it is mistaken to name names. Giving some 25 kill ace credit for 250 kills is dishonest. That canot be taken away from the german pilots. They really did it. No guessing required.
While bashing people that fly german Iron in AH is narrow and silly to me. Blindly assuming that the german pilots that fought through the war had some moral fibre that none or few displayed is equaly silly. These men are accountable for what they did and did not do. They aided in starting and prolonging a horible, evil war declared by a mad man but persecuted by them. Acknowledge their tactical accomplishments and bravery, acknowledge their moral failure and cowardess.
Are their people of every race and creed that might behave the same? yes
I wish they could do better too.
-
Its probably best to give up nationalisms-I could play the game with a red or blue or green country just fine. The differences in historical weaponry make the game more interesting and the flight simulation of the various AC is very enjoyable. Some folks may react to the fact that the allies won, thinking the allies were guiltless denfenders of whatever-and therefore Hitlers group were devils etc. If you take the time to dig into the facts (some well hidden) you may find that the allies were not blameless or spotless in their motivations. A thorough study of the history of the Pearl Harbor attack (written by a decorated naval officer) about made me throw up. So its probably easier on the psychi to think of the cyber countries as Pizzaria or Beerica and play the game for fun. I have no interest in flaming Germans or Japanese or anybody--well, maybe a congressman from time to time. Anger well directed-HEHE.
-
Sorry if I my comments on the General Staff came across that way. I was relating a factual episode, it was not my intention to paint the entire group of people with a lily-white brush.
As far as numbers of kills, I'm constantly amazed that this is ever held in contention. The Jagdflieger scored a lot more kills than anyone else because they were in combat longer, and they operated almost constantly in a target-rich environment. They didn't score more kills because they were better pilots or had better aircraft; they scored more kills because they had more targets and more time.
I think that a very good way to judge the skill of a combat pilot is to look at his/her 'Strike Rate' (kills/sortie). By this measurement, many Allied pilots (notably Robert Johnson) compare very favorably with the Luftwaffe of the period.
------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
-
Unless they were complete nit wits, each man, in his turn, must
have chosen to help hitler.
...or choose death. which is it gonna be? If it were me, I'd probably choose to fly a cool plane like a Fw-190 before I died.
-
Botabing
My first post was meant to address what I see as popular perceptions regarding the LW experience in the early days of WW2. I excerpted part of your post (without referencing you personally) as an example of this line of thought. Had I had a bone to pick with you, I would have began my post as I am doing now.
>>The highest kill records in the history of aviation belong to LW pilots.<<
Depending on how 'kill record' is defined, this can be shown to be false. In terms of kills to losses, the best record in WW2 probably belongs to the AVG in China from December 1941 to the summer of 1942. There are parallels that can be drawn to the BOB time frame...better equipment, better training, better tactics.
>>Well, I think its pretty clear that German pilots were better than anyone they were up against.<<
I don't think this is clear at all. In all the post-action deliberations that took place after the Battle of Britain, no one has ever advanced the idea that the LW pilots were 'better' than their RAF counterparts. Better aircraft...in some cases. More of them...definitely. Better tactics...again, in some cases. Better trained...maybe, maybe not...training is only half the picture...the other half is experience...and here the LW gets the initial advantage.
Finally...what's your time frame? 1940? The entire war? If it's the latter, have you forgotten which side ultimately won air superiority over Germany?
I suggest you find yourself a book on LW WW2 pilots. Forget about the ones with 300 kills that survived the war. Instead, concentrate on the ones with 100-200 kills that didn't. In nearly every case, you will find that they got blown away by some nameless Allied pilot who got into their six undetected. For these pilots, how much good did their 'better' skills do them?
I did not mean to imply that you had inferred a racial superiority tone to your argument. But, this has often been the case in commentary on this subject...and that is why I mentioned it. Some people just like to think that the image of the blue-eyed, blond-haired German superhuman is typical of the WW2 German pilot. As I'm sure you would agree, this is a bunch of baloney.
Initially better trained and more experienced. Other than that, no difference.
Andy
-
<S> Gentlemen, there have been some brutally frank opinions given here, and nobody has popped a gasket(yet).
I know this is an extremely sensitive topic, but one I've always found fascinating. I've read a lot of military history on WWI and WWII, and what I've found most tragic(yet interesting) is what led to the wars in the first place.
The reason WW2 has not disappeared into the historical neverworld yet, is because the people affected by it are still alive.
Watching my 54 year old mother as she stares at a picture of her then 24 year old father(he died two months after the picture was taken), as she describes what it was like to grow up never knowing the man who created her, is painful. And when I read the letter from my grandma to him, describing his new daughter--the letter has "Deceased, return to sender" stamped on the front...I really started to understand the horror that people went through during the war, and after.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond, and for doing so in a mature manner. This is probably the most meaningful thread I've ever been a party to.
P.S Yeager, I'll have to call him up and get a clarification from him. He's 82 years old, but I know he was a sergeant of some flavor. He was the Armorer for his plane, the guy responsible for the operation of all the guns on his fort. 385th Bomb Group, 549th Bomb Squadron. Red Checkerboard tail. B-17G, "Ruby's Raiders".
-
Sorry,but about fighter skills...
nothing will change my firm belief that Adolf Galland and Werner Molders were the best fighter pilots of all time. I can't decide between them, they both were simply awesome...
And wasnt only a matter of training and experience. Galland returned to air combat in 1945 after 3 1/2 years of forced "leave" and he did awesome sorties with Me262, a plane light years away of his last ride, a Me109F...and against experienced enemies all around his squadron.
-
Actually, my vote goes to Heinz 'Pritzl' Baer. Beginning as an Unteroffizer, he scored his first victory on Sept. 25th, 1939. He flew on all fronts, doing well on each: 96 vs the Russians, 124 (second only to Marseille) against the West. 8th all time, if memory serves, very high among the Bomber experten (21), and leading Jet Ace (16) among all nations until 1973.
Killed in a light aircraft accident, postwar.
------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
-
I salute all of you posting here. THIS is what a BB is really for. Reasonable discussion and debate. I have to say that I am very glad that The Allies won the War, and also very glad that I din't have to fight in it. The more I read on World War II, the battles, the politics, the world `economies' of the time, the more I learn there aren't any simple answers to the `why?' of it. Does it go back to the rise of the NAZI's in the late 1800's, the collapse of German might after World War I, and the rules imposed on them there after. Or the spread of Communism, Socialism, etc. It is probably all of those and quite a bit more we haven't even uncovered.
Having said that, I must say that I find a personal fascination with the German Aircraft of World War II because they had so many advanced features and designs. I have been an aviation nut my whole life and spent years in college learning to design them. As such, I have always considered the FW-190 to be an incredible aircraft design. However, I don't worship the German Fighter Pilots who fought for Hitler, but I do respect them regardless of their politics. They created most of the basic tactics we currently use (Finger four formation with loose pairing of wingman and leader, etc.) and fought many times (if they survived) outnumbered 10 or 20 to 1 from about '43 onwards. However, thankfully, the Allies prevailed.
Of course, as `evil' as we may consider some of these NAZI's (And I in no uncertain terms condone what they did or believed) it is painfully obvious the Allied Nations didn't care too much at the end of the War what anyone believed; witness how many NAZI's went to work for the US/USSR Aerospace Companies and organizations & also went to work for each countries `Spy' network.
The point of all this is only, really, to say I find it all `interesting' but in no way `simplistic'. Also, that I have a serious interest in German World War II aviation, but do not worship it. I say this, because sometimes I do speak in `glowing' terms for what the Germans (And Japanese)accomplished aeronautically. But never let it be considered as atonement for what the German and Japanese War Machine started.
It is also sad that Hitler trashed the Finnish symbol and appropriated it for his personal `mis-use'. Perhaps if the Neo-Nazis knew what that symbol really represented they would realize how oxymoronic they look, but then they wouldn't be who they are.
I, sincerely, thank everyone for keeping this discussion civil.
Well, time to go sign up for that new series of books on the Air War on the Eastern front. Hopefully they will have some more information in that series on the Russians use of the P-39 and P-63 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Another aeronautical favorite!
Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 08-28-2000).]
-
It'll prolly get me whacked, but I honestly believe Charles "Chuck" Yeager is still the best pilot to ever take the helm of a fighter.
This the guy had the skill needed to fly every plane the US could get it hands on between the early forties to the late sixties is really impressive to me.
I will not argue that the Luftwaffe had the best pilots during WWII, but, I think there has never been a man with the dedication to simply flying then Yeager. I cannot imagine asking the supreme allied commander if I could stay and fight the Germans when I had the chance to go home, let alone start another tour afterwards. And then to actually have the chance to fly every axis and allied plane the US had in it's possesion as long as I wanted, and to become proficent enough to dive, loop, and stall anyone of them after complete flight testing. Not only that, but to be able to repair each plane by himself!
Perhaps if Yeager had not been testing planes from nearly 20 yeards before leading a squadron of F-86's in Germany, his record of being absolutely perfect in all manners would seem even more spectacular.
I believe that when Yeager was flight testing the MiG-15, some 7 or so years after his last combat mission, and whopped a current F-86 commander at will in BOTH the F-86 and then the MiG-15 says alot about a pilot.
Amazing guy. Private to General.
- Jig
-
I too have to salute you gentlemen for a level-headed debate. <S>
Q.Why were there so many LW pilots with 100+ kills ?
A. Because they did not have the option of NOT participating in the next TOD - no 25, 50 or however many missions and home. They either got maimed/killed in combat or killed the enemy a/c.
Note: Arguably, because of this 'fly till you die' existence, they had the upper hand experience wise against most enemy pilots (1on1).
And yes, they had conscription in most if not all mainland European countries.
Now, my turn to ask the questions ...
Statement : The Geneva convention specifically prohibits the targeting of civilians with any weapons - even in 1940.
Q. AVM Harris was Chief of RAF Bomber Command and planner of "Operation Gommora" (the bombing of Hamburg) and General Lemay - Chief of Pacific Bomber force and planner of the fire bombing of Tokyo, would this not make THEM war criminals ?
This is a rhetorical question as the winners are never brought to trial but I'm wandering far afield here to say that people do awful things that have to be taken in context with their situation. If a LW pilot refused to fly, there were 2 other choices , death or the Eastern Front as a foot soldier - wait that's one choice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I respect the airmen who flew in WW2 be they LW or Allied ...
Cheers,
(WB) Rifle S/L No.1 (Cdn)Squadron "Rams"
-
My only concern about threads like this is that they "seem" to be "agenda" born??? I worry when Nazism is compared to O J. Simpson (who for the record was found innocent in a court of "criminal" law). We here in America are proud of being a nation of "laws" and living by them, but it seems in the last few years that the cry is that if the outcome is not what you like then disregard the law and keep beating the drum for your own version (sounds kinda like any other propaganda scheme) anyhow I for one donot take any polictical views when flying sims and think this topic might be better served elsewhere. I love history but this is not the place for "Political Correctness" type posts no matter what you convictions are.
-
We had an excellent discussion about the whys of LW hi scores. There are lots of reasons.
Why are people apologizing for their favorite pilots? Who could make a case for Chuck Yeager, Werner Molders, or Adolf Galland not being the best fighter pilot ever? The list is long. Because of who won we can honor them all without fear. But this thread is about seperating their air to air accomplishments from thier moral responsobility for the war.
I would feel much more comfortable honoring Chuck. (But I have read much more about the others..)
I am not saying the luftwaffe experten where war criminals. I am not saying that many pilots from other counties would not have looked the other way and fought the war as they did. I am saying that for the part they played, they are responsible. And the excellent sevice they gave Hitler is a signifigant factor in the length of the war.
When in battle you fight more for the guy beside you then the guy in the big house.
Ive been a soldier(never in war). I have sat over many beer and talked about decisions like that with lots of guys from many counties. It would be a hell of a thing. But part of it is you gotta live with and stand accountable for your decision.
There are opinions out there about the moral courage of some of these men that bear retelling.
"The success of the legendary Werner "Vati"("Daddy") Molders are too well known to be repeated here. Less known are the true circumstances during which he was killed. "Vati" Molders probably the greatest national hero of the Nazi propaganda by the time of his death, which was described as a flying accident, on November 22, 1941. However, in the German underground movment a witness account was circulated, which gave a different version: a body had been seen falling from the Heinkel in which Modlers travelled.
What is true, although it has escaped widespread publicity, is that molders had turned against the Nazi government shortly before his death. The violations against men and women of the church speaking up agianst the atrocoties in Germany had upset the catholic Werner Molders. After the arrest of the Bishop of Munster, who had reacted strongly against the Nazis, Molders wrapped up his decorations and his Nazi party membership card and sent it all to the party HQ along with his protest letter, where he explained that he henceforth refused "to wear the inignia of this type of system." A few weeks later the world was informed of the death of Germanys greatest fighter ace."
This is quoted entirly from
Luftwaffe Fighter aces in Profile
By Clause Sundin and Christer Bergstrom.
I have no idea how much fact is there. Interesting that Molders was apperantly a card carrying Nazi though.
The authors make similar statments about Marseille.
Numbers of missions.
Werner Schroer flew 197 combat missions and destroyed 114 RAF and USAF aircraft.
Of course he is not even the least bit famous.
Gabraski flew 153 and scored 28.
It was the numbers of bad guys. Along with a plane and tactics to get the job done. But mostly numbers of bad guys.
I read a non credited account of Canadians fighting for the Germans on the eastern front and achieving over 100 kills...
Dont know what to make of that either. I can dig it up if anyone is interested.
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 08-29-2000).]
-
Very interesting thread.
Finally i see some cold headed discussion (with some exception (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
It's difficult to analyze somethink so complex as the social contest of a nation 60 years ago, without a specific and professional knowledge.
But this is a good try. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
About the "NAZI, not NAZI" issue:
I can use as example Italy under fascist regime, from an outher perspective it's easy generalize and use the equation Italians=Fascists, but is too much semplicistic.
Now let's try to enter in the shoes of another person.
You are a normal guy living in your country, you believe in your fatherland, you Salute your flag, pay taxes, and serve (is still this way) your country in the costricted army period.
A new party raise in the government, they seem to work well, there is some wellfare, thinks are going better (the damage of Versaille seem receiding), the king believe in this no-hair funny man.
Well, they ask you to do the roman salute... who cares?
At this point you have 3 options, based on your personal and cultural attitude:
[list=1]
- You are left minded, you dont like this government, and thinks are getting worse, they know it, they pursue you, make you lose the job, discriminate on you in every act of your social life, cut happens you misteriously disappear one night, and nobody will see you again, or you manage to escape in another country, maybe you succeded to hide your ideas and during the war you can start some kind of fight (they call you terrorist, but you know you're right)... and so on (probably i am in this category, or i hope so).
- You agree with this nice and friendly mans, they think like you, you are pride of your nation, pissed off by the Versailles threaty, you know, Italians are the best, and they do the best, all the newspaper say you are right, you are an important part of society, pride of your black shirt (an ugly italian, indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), we can call you a fanatic, and probably if the party says the jews are evil, you believe it, and hate them.
- you are a simple, middle citizen, no big culture, normal work, sometimes read newspaper (lot of good think is doing this fascist party, uh?), you see being part of the party make think easier in normal life, so you decide to subscribe, finally they may be a little too rude guys, but the thinks are working better since they take the power, you understand, the actual situation cut be solved as they say, waging war, expanding your nation's influence in the world, you have to do your duty, you recieve the call as a soldier, and you go doing your duty for your nation, obeing orders.
At home the thinks are changing... getting strange... your neighborought (sp?) is a jew, a good guy, how can him be so evil as they say?.
One of your school friends was communist, and has been found dead in an alley (someone say was beated to death by fascists, can you believe it?).
Your army is not so strong as they said, you fight in a ridicule little tank versus the mighty matildas in the desert, but is your duty, so... you fly in your underpowered and peeshooter armed plane versus flying wonders like Spits and Tempests, but is your duty, so... you are marching in the cold snow at -30° with your paper boots (yes, paper!!), well, at least you can use pieces of the blanket around it to warm a little your feets, and this red ghosts hide and appear and fight like if in summer, but is your duty, so...
Suddenly you hear "we surrender", and your camarades become your enemies, they shoot your officers and capture the soldiers as "workers" for Germany, luckily you manage to escape back to your country, your town has been bombed by the allies, destruction is everywhere, probably you manage to hide until the end of war and the arrival of the allies, or you join with the fascist army to defend your loved countryland betrayed by the king, or you join with the partisans and fight fascists and nazis, or cross the lines and join the fight side by side with the allies.[/list=a]
Well, will be surprising, but the bigger part of the population will fit in the option #3, like most of us.
And dont foul yourself (like me in option 1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)).
The point?
Dont judge the story (big movements) like the mens (small actors), use different parameters, in story nobody is guilty (is just story), the mens are guilty, but usually few of them, not the entire population.
Judge people in different contests using the contest within THEY are, not using YOUR contest.
Just imagine to be there at the moment, with the knowledge of the period.
And ask yourself truly: "what i will do?".
Knowledge is freedom, every government know very well the best weapon to control people is information, so...
WATCH OUT !!!
YOU can become the NEW NAZI, without understand it.
Regarding the Svastika, is neither a finnish nor a German "copyright" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
In fact is one of the older symbols of humankind, used since the prehistory by the early Homo Sapiens, is a variation of the spiral.
Long post, indeed.
-
BigJim
>>...O J. Simpson (who for the record was found innocent in a court of "criminal" law)...<<
For the record, Simpson was not 'found innocent'. His judgement was 'not guilty' due to reasonable doubt. This is not an insignificant difference.
Otherwise, I agree with your position that this forum is for simmers, not evangelicals of any persuasion.
Andy
-
Originally posted by banana:
But when I see some people who seem to "worship" the LW pilots of WW2, this gives me cause for pause.
It amazes me the amount of ppl that contiously bring stuff like this up as if it's some major issue.
I started a squad over 2 years ago, P.T.R. Pilots of the Third Reich. I didn't want to use a historical name so I chose this one. It reflects the LW pilots of that Time Period, not a political connection.
Now Karnack can attest that we've had this discussion before. But I'll be nicer about it this time.
War is war, period. I've served and fought in the USAF, as well as my grandfather and 2 of his brothers. 1 in Pacific the other 2 in in Europe.
Soldiers are soldiers regardless of what they believed in or what some ppl think they believed in. I view soldering as nothing more than a merc job. Do it, and go home afterwards. And that's how I view LW pilots. Ppl just like others, who most of them fought for their country and not a leader.
How did so man Russians fight for Stalin after seeing his bloody rampages? How did american pilots and british alike drop bombs on civilian area's? Simple. It was their job. During modern times, things like this can be seen as unlawful orders. But during an all out world conflict your going to do what ur told instead of going to jail.
Germany was a nation of aviation before, during and even after the war. Only during the late, late stages of the war did the LW start using the Hitler Youth as pilots. Which most LW pilots have and will say that it was very unwelcome.
As much as you don't like someone that likes German pilots and their history, I don't like someone that can't recognize a soldiers duties and see the history as just that.
Wingnut
P.T.R.
-
I've never really understood why people associate flying german a/c in a game means your secretly flying for the new fourth Reich, or your on some American History X trip...but however...
My grandfather was a lancaster tail gunner, and although he never really spoke about the war,..He did once tell me that the only thing he ever thought about, was that he missed home but was proud to serve his country.and that he was glad he made it back every trip.
At his bowling club in New Zealand, there was a an Afrika Korps veteran who I met when I was on holiday with my grandparents and I remarked didn't Pop shoot at people like him, and he said that He was just like him..He loved his country, and and was glad he made it home.
Thats what I think about this debate. German soldiers are just like the present day military. You are there to do a job, and you do it the best you can. War is a dirty buisness, and you may not agree with who is running your country, but if it called on you for whatever reason you will do what your trained for.
LW pilots have my respect because they kept flying until the were killed or just couldn't fly no more. Whether it was invading Poland, and defending your home. Just like RAF, RNZAF, USAAF etc pilots have my respect...
History is written by the victors, and we all have very limited experience in such matters. What motivated Hitler has been widely discussed, but he is no more evil than Stalin, Mao and a host of others.
Its easy to be an arm chair general, and say what you may or may not do..but plenty of good people have done terrible things for many, many reasons. And you didn't have to wear SS runes to prove that.
Waffen SS units at the end of the war often surrendered to American formations believing they would be enlisted to fight "bolshevism", something that 1950's america came to know well. Plenty of allied countries had been kicking around minorities for countless decades before WW2, and continued to after.
Just be pleased that we played war games, and aren't called on to fight those wars...
-
Pongo said:
Werner Schroer flew 197 combat missions and destroyed 114 RAF and USAF aircraft. Of course he is not even the least bit famous.
Pongo, I don't know if you've ever seen this before, but back in the early 70's, the BBC produced a famous 26 part series on WWII called "A World at War". Part twelve is about the airwar over Germany in 43-45, and Werner Schroer is one of the lw pilots interviewed. He gives his account of what it was like attacking the American bombers, and how he taught his young pilots to "close their eyes" when the gunners opened up with thier .50's at 1000 yds. Very interesting stuff! I looked him up in a book, and discovered that he died in 1976, at a relatively young age.
-
Hm, well, I've often heard that the allieds had fewer targets, hence fewer kills. This has a common sense quality to it, and is pretty solid.
On the other side of the coin, and this is also a point worth considering, the Germans were (in the later stages of the war) hopelessly outnumbered. Andy asks what use the superior skill of a 100-200 kill LW pilot was when some unknmown allied pilot managed to sneak up on his 6 and shoot him down. I must say - the skills gave him 100-200 kills *before* getting shot out of the sky. An argument can be made that no amount of skill/kills do you any good if you get shot down, but that's really a tangent.
Getting lots of kills and surviving for several missions when you're heavily outnumbered, fatigued and flying aircraft that are technogically inferior to the enemy'splanes is an accomplishment. With the shortage of some metals and places for development bombed, it's pretty amazing these guys got any kills at all.
Take a group of 20 P-51's and let them escort 10 B1-17-s in Aces High. Let them meet 10 109G10's. Count the kills. I can guarantee you that unless the 109's turn tail and run after the first pass, most of them will be shot down with few allied losses.
So, you *could* say that the allied aces got their kills flying better equipped planes and with a numerical superiority. *In general* that is. The difference between the average allied ace and the average German ace would be experience - the latter has more combat experience.
It was an ugly war. But the firebombing of Hamburg (where I have relatives), the needless waste of so many allied crews doing things that *should* be punishable (geneva convetion, bombing civilian targets) trying to do something that was *proven* to have the opposite effect just pisses me off. It irritates me to such a degree that I could be convinced to grab a 109 to shoot down those f00kn instruments of death who due to the inept moral standards of the allied high command were used to commit mass murder on civilians.
Conversely, the German bombings of London and other cities lights up an anger, even hatred in me that'd send me running to the nearest Hurricane had I been old/young enough to fight during the BoB.
I don't care *who* ordered it - the winners or the losers. Those who gave the command are still to be loathed, prosecuted and punished for such a horrific crime.
Not only a crime against the enemy civilian population. A crime against *their own citizens*; brave young men send to die *bombing civilians*. It's so unbelievably morally bankrupt it's enraging. It shows such a cynicism, lust for revenge and lack of respect towards your own men it is laughable. Or would be if the consequences weren't so severe.
Before someone yells "holocaust", I might as well say that this isn't what we're discussing here. It is not subject to debate that the holocaust were probably one of the most henious acts mankind has committed against itself and that the stopping of it is a just cause. At least not to me. But we're discussing something else right now.
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
Originally posted by Downtown:
Tell me why we fought Iraq for Kuwait? How are things in Somalia, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Korea? Are they better today than they were before we went to war for/over them?
Why we fought Iraq for Kuwait ? .An evil man commited what ammounts to armed robery on a giant scale for one. Secondly, the same reason that we fought Hitler, and indirectly the USSR for the Persian gulf. And that is becuase the war machine still runs on petroluem. It is good that we keep it out of the hands of madmen .
Are thing better for Iraq or Iran ? When did we liberate them ? As for Korea and Kuwait, you bet your ass. We saved South Korea and Kuwait, we haven't saved North Korea.. yet .
As for Somalia I share the opinion of my contemporaries that fought in task force Ranger. We should've finished the job, we served no greater good by leaving those africans to the mercy of the warlords. But that decision wasn't made by an american soldier .
-
Heh American foreign politics are as dirty as the knickers of a Russian crack potato (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Comes with the territory of being a superpower I guess.
"Let's liberate Kuwait!"
"Ok, from who?
"Saddam!"
"Big deal. Besides, didn't we use to back him?"
"Oil, man, oil. Saddam is not our friend anymore, he took his ball and left."
"Oh, ok"
"Ok, now he's gone. Let's put back the old dictatorial government and call it a liberation"
"Good idea. I bet the suckers back home think we did it because we are such decent people."
"Hm, we haven't messed with South America for a while have we?"
"No, last thing we did was the Echelon electronic tapping from European businesses. Bet BMW didn't know what hit them."
"Who the hell are they to say ANYTHING? We saved their bellybutton in WWII!"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
ROTFL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<Applause>
-
You're right santa, Saddam was the real victim . You've exposed our scheme to further the evil Kuwaiti imperialization.
We told Kuwait the way they run their country is wrong, but they don't listen. What our we gonna do force them to do it our way by military coercion ? We could easily do that, but that would be wrong .
-
Tough topic here.
I wanted to comment on the LW pilots being "above the rest" comments.
Take the 325th Fighter Group`s experence on July 30, 1943 for example in which they recieved a Distinguished Unit Citation. They were flying P40`s against superior 109`s of time, and they were outnumbered 2:1 or more.
Here`s a clip of the well documented story:
"On 30th of July 20 P-40s of the 317th and 16 P-40s of the 319th Squadron took off on a fighter sweep, to rendezvous over Sardinia. As they turned to fly south over the west part of the island, they were attacked near Sassari and 20 miles north of the rendezvous point where they were to meet the 319th coming from the east. The attacking force consisted of 25 to 30 Me-109s and Ma-202s, bringing the estimated total of enemy aircraft engaged to between 40 and 50 planes. Radio communications with the other squadron was poor, and repeated inquiries received no answers, so the 319th was unable to locate the battle. In the brief, intense battle that occurred, 20 P-40s engaged 40 to 50 and destroyed 21 enemy aircraft. General observations on the encounter show that in addition to the 21 victories and 4 probables reported, there may have been many more. It is believed that Lt. Robert Sederberg, who singly went to the aid of a fellow pilot who was being attacked by 5 Me-109s, in addition to destroying one Me-109 for sure, scored at least four victories. Lt. Sederberg was last seen engaged in combat with 5 Me-109s. Many months later he was reported a prisoner of war in Germany."
Now if they had better pilots, with better aircraft, and a numbers advantage of 2:1, how could you lose that fight?
They did, and in a bad way.
Anyone who says the LW pilots are better than any other pilots in the world needs to take a good look at themselves.
------------------
Skybax
328thFS ~ 352nd FG
Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
[This message has been edited by sky_bax (edited 08-29-2000).]
-
You take 1 encounter of a theatre where all the worst LW pilots were sent to...
-
I think I've made it clear that I don't think that German pilots were in any way superior to the pilots of other nations.
I am suprised to see that story resurrected by Skybax, as it's been debunked before. FYI, there were probably not more than 70 Me 109's in the entire Italian theater on the day this engagement occured. It's extremely unlikely that a FG armed with P40s shot down 1/3 of the Luftwaffe presence in Italy during one encouter. I'm almost certain I can dig up documention that says only 8 or so 109s were lost that day in the entire Med.
<S> to the 325th, but I got 2 words for ya: Over Claiming.
Edit - I managed to at least dig up the German OOB.
In northern Italy in July 1943, the only LW Fighter units were I and II JG77, plus the Geschwader Stab. At full complement (these were not) that would amount to between 52 and 76 aircraft, total.
OOB is here (with dates and bases):
http://www.uwm.edu/People/jpipes/JG77.htm (http://www.uwm.edu/People/jpipes/JG77.htm)
------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
[This message has been edited by vadr (edited 08-29-2000).]
-
The way I see it is that the Allied bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo and Osaka were a mistake, but....
The Allies (US and UK) were not trying to conquer another nation for evil purposes as the Germans were when they bombed Warsaw, London and Coventry or the Japanese were when they bombed Shanghai and other Chinese cities. The Allies were trying to end a war they hadn't asked for, using the tools they had and tactics they thought would shorten the war.
These are the differences I see between the Allies aerial campaigns and those of the Axis.
Here's a thought:
The Germans bombed London and Coventry to break British morale and the British were defiant.
The British and Americans REALLY bombed Hamburg, Dresden, Osaka and Tokyo (120,000 dead) to break the will of the German and Japanese people and the Germans and Japanese were defiant.
The Americans dropped Nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Japan surrendered.
Maybe the heavy bombing to break the will to fight wasn't wrong, but simply MUCH harder to reach than was thought. Maybe it took the blunt shock of Nuclear weapons to do it. The conventional weapons just didn't have enough "shock" punch.
I don't want to change this to a "should we have dropped them or not" discussion, but I want to address, briefly, my thoughts on that subject because I have mentioned Nuclear weapons.
I know that many, many lives, both American and Japanese, were save by those weapons. We had an invasion plan and, unlike the Germans, the Japanese knew exactly where we were going to land. The Japanese had fortified those points to the best of their ability, which was on par with what the Germans could have done had they known where we were coming. We estimated, conservativly, that we would incur one million American casaulties and inflict three to ten million Japanese casualties in the first part of the invasion.
A further thought is that those two, horrifying events (and they are horrifying regardless of whether one thinks they should have been dropped or not), gave the world a preview of what Nuclear armegeddon held in store for us. The US and USSR didn't have to throw nukes at each other in 1962 to find out how horrible it was. We already knew. It wasn't some abstract concept. We KNEW what it would be like. Perhaps that knowlege saved humanity.
I pray to God that what we are discussing here never raises its spectre from the history books. Lets remember what happened and keep it in the past.
Never again.
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Santa -
Now why'd you have to go and ruin this nice civil discussion?
Sour
------------------
Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
-
sour, oh come on.
Ok, I'll tell you what.
EVERYONE WITHOUT A SENSE OF HUMOR, DON'T READ OR RESPOND TO MY POSTS.
It was a joke. A thing one should, if good, laugh about.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
Big deal.
I haven't ruined anything.
Now stop pestering me.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
Yes Vadr resurrection. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And remember I agree with you for the most part here.
But bebunked? Not really.
Here is a post from Spades on the event. (Spades quotes in BOLD
=============================================
---------------------------------------------
(other party quote)
There is a wealth of written material on this engagement. The fight occured over Sardinia, July 30, 1943. The Luftwaffe actually lost 21 fighters, all Bf-109's to 1 P-40 downed. The following is attributed to the AAF archives, in reference to this engagement: "The poor tactics and coordination displayed by the enemy pilots indicated that the were inexperienced and had little knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of their own Me-109's or the allies' P-40's."
---------------------------------------------
This fight is mentioned in "Air War Europa" and probably in some other books about the USAAF/P-40, but according to Jochen Prien, a German research writer, this claim was highly inaccurate.
This fight took place between Alghero and Oristano, south east of Sardinia around 09:40 and 10:10 in the morning, between Bf109G-6s of III./JG 77 and P-40s of the 325th. FG. (and some P-38s...?)
Interestingly the kill inflation is about the same 5x
LW -> 5 kills -> according to 325th 1 loss
US -> 21 kills -> according to LW only 4 losses (1 KIA, 3 WIA)
The additional loss was on a later flight that day, 1 MIA
Because of the small number of LW units based in Sicily its fairly easy to find out who was involved in which fight.
---------------------------------------------
(other party quote)
Martin Caidin writes that the Luftwaffe pilots were very green and the P-40 pilots were veterans with a great deal of experience and very aggressive.
---------------------------------------------
I don't know about the pilots of the 325th, but it is indeed correct that III. Gruppe of JG 77 had just received a bunch of green pilots
---------------------------------------------
(other party quote)
Odd? Yes it is odd. The lack of experience combined with poor leadership led to a painful initiation for the young German airmen.
---------------------------------------------
Can't disagree with that, but poor leadership at unit level can't be the cause. In war you have to deal with the situation as its given...the Luftwaffe played the cards it was dealt...and in 1943 Italy it had no choice but to commit green pilots, whatever the quality of the combat duty leadership.
On the other hand, the events from this more objective pov sound much less spectacular:
---------------------------------------------
(other party quote)
...up to 30 (probably as few as 12) Bf109G-6s of III./JG77, with a number of green pilots vs 20 P-40s of the 325th FG with, like you described, seasoned pilots, outcome 4-1 outcome in favor of the 325th.
=============================================
Overclaiming yes, but a valid occurance and a good point here.
The point I was trying to make is that LW pilots being the best pilots is a bogus statement. Not saying you said that, just see that comment often.
325th pilots were experenced and knew the P-40 well. These LW pilots were not a skilled and underestimated the P-40`s better zoom climb performance, roll rate, and turn rate.
------------------
Skybax
328thFS ~ 352nd FG
Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
-
Most if not all pilots in the LW were members of the Nazi party.
Nuff said!
dynamt
-
Ummmm.... so sky-bax, aren't we agreeing here? Did I miss something? Actual LW losses were 4? Right? To 1 for the 325th?
I think we are agreed on all other points. The LW obviously lost the fight, I just want to make sure we get the numbers right.
btw, III/JG77 was in Russia on this date. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>!
PS -
These LW pilots...underestimated the P-40`s better zoom climb performance, roll rate, and turn rate.
I've often made that same mistake when fighting the 352nd in WB. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
[This message has been edited by vadr (edited 08-29-2000).]
-
You can argue "The Best" forever, this is relatively subjective to opionion.
The truth remains "LW pilots were the most successful pilots of WW2 concerning A2A victories"
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Mino I love you man but that is a bunch of baloney."
Funked
-
I've researched the history of many LW pilots with great interest (As well as RCAF pilots). I personally have respect for them and their talent.
Soldiers are duty bound, the average German soldier's only crime was being born German. These very same people would have fought with the same vigour had they been born in the US.
I am disgusted by the harrassment of American soldiers in the US by people who disagreed with the Vietnam war. They were doing their duty as soldiers, laying their life on the line for their country. It makes no difference to me whether the politicians were right or wrong when it comes to the respect the soldier deserves.
------------------------
As far as the rest of this thread is concerned, I am amazed how little people know about the origins of WW2. "Mad man" history is for children and seeing that blather spewed here makes me want to correct half the posts. Instead, I will recommend a book "Origins of World War Two" by A.J.P Taylor as I am tired of arguing with people who are not willing to put in the time to educate themselves.
-
Read all thread (sic!) and still havnt found out what Volatile means.Ugh.
danish
-
Read all thread (sic!) and still havnt found out what Volatile means.Ugh.
It is simply impossible to be married and not know what this means (even if you're Danish). You must be single.
Volatile = explosive (if shaken or disturbed) = women
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-29-2000).]
-
Satan -
Humor noted - didn't you read the intonation in mine? You are such a troll-meister.
Sour
-
Originally posted by Karnak:
The way I see it is that the Allied bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo and Osaka were a mistake, but....
The Allies (US and UK) were not trying to conquer another nation for evil purposes as the Germans were when they bombed Warsaw, London and Coventry or the Japanese were when they bombed Shanghai and other Chinese cities. The Allies were trying to end a war they hadn't asked for, using the tools they had and tactics they thought would shorten the war.
I just really really wish that we (as in the countrys involved in WWI) had responded to military build-up in central Europe. If that wasn't a big enough warning sign, you would think the initial invasions would of been. On the other hand, a military action and occupation of what would later become the European axis nations would of probably turned out much like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. Perhaps even to a cold war extent, after all thats what happened afterwards.
The US would of been no help at the time, given our isolationist stand point. And I don't think the European nations would of banded togather to occupy anything anyway, because they would have no reason to (lack of self intrest) Er but thats what happened I guess.
This is kind of the American excuse for our questionable foreign policy; the fear of leaving things unchecked.
Here's a thought:
The Germans bombed London and Coventry to break British morale and the British were defiant.
The British and Americans REALLY bombed Hamburg, Dresden, Osaka and Tokyo (120,000 dead) to break the will of the German and Japanese people and the Germans and Japanese were defiant.
The Americans dropped Nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Japan surrendered.
Maybe the heavy bombing to break the will to fight wasn't wrong, but simply MUCH harder to reach than was thought. Maybe it took the blunt shock of Nuclear weapons to do it. The conventional weapons just didn't have enough "shock" punch.
I don't want to change this to a "should we have dropped them or not" discussion, but I want to address, briefly, my thoughts on that subject because I have mentioned Nuclear weapons.
I know that many, many lives, both American and Japanese, were save by those weapons. We had an invasion plan and, unlike the Germans, the Japanese knew exactly where we were going to land. The Japanese had fortified those points to the best of their ability, which was on par with what the Germans could have done had they known where we were coming. We estimated, conservativly, that we would incur one million American casaulties and inflict three to ten million Japanese casualties in the first part of the invasion.
I agree fully. The Japanese had already proven to everyone they would fight to the last to defend their home land. I cannot imagine how long the war would of drug on if such an invasion occured, and the countless number of Russian, American and Japanese lives that would of been lost in such a military action. And yet after, another place where Russian and US troops would of met for an occupation, recreating something much to the extent of post-war Germany.
A further thought is that those two, horrifying events (and they are horrifying regardless of whether one thinks they should have been dropped or not), gave the world a preview of what Nuclear armegeddon held in store for us. The US and USSR didn't have to throw nukes at each other in 1962 to find out how horrible it was. We already knew. It wasn't some abstract concept. We KNEW what it would be like. Perhaps that knowlege saved humanity.
[/b]
I believe that is why there has never been any kind of nuclear strike. As stupid as the human race can be at times, I think the people at the top of the political chains in every nations realized "We shoot, WE (the guys giving orders) die" as opposed to the ol' "We shoot their soldiers, they shoot ours. Take some land. Count some bodies, and he who has the most wins, least we have a chance of living"
Any attack would equal the end. Least a few idjits figured out "If we don't attack we don't die! Cool!" (all from a nuclear holocaust prespective. To bad that wasn't figured out be aggressors everywhere.)
I pray to God that what we are discussing here never raises its spectre from the history books. Lets remember what happened and keep it in the past.
Never again.
Sisu
-Karnak
Unless gas prices get over 2 bucks. Er never again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
-
I recently finished a fascinating book on the political decisions affecting the employment of Atomic Weapons in Japan. I'm convinced that were 3 reasons the US decided to use them, but I'm not at all sure what order those reasons should go in.
1 - The prevention of even greater loss of life that would have occured in a conventional invasion.
2 - They provided a means for the Emporer to 'save face' and over rule the General Staff on the issue of surrender.
3 - They got Japan to surrender quickly, thus preventing Russian occupation of the Home Islands.
The Book is called 'Downfall', by Richard B. Frank (Guadalcanal). Pick it up if this is a period that interests you.
------------------
Vadr
Kommandeur, III/JG 2 'Richthofen' (http://www.jg2.org/)
CM, S3 Team (http://personal.smartt.com/~barbell/S3main.html)/Parser (http://www.cgidesign.net/s3/)
vadr@jg2.org
Combat Flightsim Business Forum (http://www.egroups.com/group/flightsimsonline)
-
sour:
Eeek, my humour detecton unit was disengaged.
I will now turn into apology mode.
"I apologize profusely for my lack of ability to see even the most visible of jokes. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
AKDejaVu:
Thanks for the information.Now I know what happend many years ago with SheWhoMustBeObeyed.I have been wondering ;=)
danish
-
Methinks some are taking the LW thing wayyyyyy to seriously. this is a fargin game, no more than that....anyone who thinks anything other then that best make an appointment to see a psychologist. Yup, my screen name is Hajo....nickname of Hans Joachim Hermann leader of the JG/300. Reason? because for many years I've chosen to fly the FW in online gaming....I did so when Air Warrior was first introduced to AOL some 5, 6 years ago......reason I fly the FW? At that time no one or very few attempted to fly the FW. Most wanted the Spit9 or P38J, or 109 to turn and burn in. Most said, don't fly that crate you'll lose more often then not, we only had the A8 then..So I accepted the challenge, and after taking my lumps I learned what i could and could not do and became proficient in the A8. so let's not get to dam serious about a fargin game <G> That's all AH is, a sim, not real, as are all onlight flight sims. If it were real,we'd only get one chance to make a mistake <G>
-
Hajo,
This isn't about people who fly German aircraft in sims. Almost all of us do fly German aircraft at least some of the time.
This is about the guys who seem to see the LW as some noble force defending Germany from tha slavering hordes of the USAAF, RAF and VVS. They dismiss accounts of LW barbarity and repeatedly condemn the USAAF and RAF for their bombings. They have a double standard.
This is about recognizing what happened. A group of countries were forced to defend themselves from a massive onslaught by would be conquerers. The instigators were the Axis powers, not the Allies.
There is nothing wrong with flying German aircraft or respecting German pilots, Adolf Galland is one of my favorite aces. But lets keep sight of the reality of the historical situation. The Allies were trying to end a war they hadn't wanted.
Sisu
-Karnak
-
I've attacked the needless and futile bombing of civilians *by both sides*.
But the facts reamin; the allieds were the good guys, had knowledge that it didn't work, and still pushed on sacrificing their own lives and magnitudes more civilian ones.
I'd fly a Spit to stop bombing of Londong just as much as I'd fly a 109 to stop bombing of Hamburg.
It has nothing to do with political ideology but more of a moral stance. The jerries were wrong when they bombed civilians and so were the USAF and Brits. I don't care about the excuses, such as "they started it" or whatnot.
Hope I've put it in a way that is hard to misunderstand.
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
Amazingly civil and intelligent and informative discussion. Maybe I missed a flame but overall I'm impressed. Congratulations on being able to handle this topic as adults.
When I first started flying sims, I was afraid to fly LW planes because I suspected they were all flown by skin heads with swastikas tatooed on their foreheads. I was wrong. Today I fly LW planes and make absolutely no connection between the capabilities of these machines and whatever the Nazis did. As far as the pilots of the Third Reich I subscribe to the belief that they had no choice in the matter (Donde manda capitan etc. etc. as stated by my Spanish friend). Also, the Santayana quote "those who forget history are condemned to repeat it" is appropos to someone like me fortunate to live in a democratic country because I'm disinhearted by the fact that so many of my countrymen and women will not excercise their right to participate in government in the comming election. Germans in that period didn't have the opportunities we have to voice the direction their government was taking. Maybe that's why it happened? Let's make sure it doesn't happen here. Vote!
Beeg
-
uh, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif) so you mean i dont have to cut my hairs to fly LW planes ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Now, how can i delete the huge svastika i have tattooed on my shoulders ?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Exactly right, Karnak. You have expressed my feelings beautifully.
[This message has been edited by banana (edited 08-31-2000).]
-
Let me express my feelings simply in the following words:
If my family were below me, I in a fighter trying to intercept incoming bombers that could kill my sons, daughters, wife, parents etc. I'd do my best to prevent the bombers from dropping on my family, no matter what country I flew for.
Nuff said:
-
One reason Hitler rose to power was the economics of post WW1 germany. Inflation was so bad that it actually took a wheelbarrow of Marks to purchase a loaf of bread! The country was in a shambles after WW1 for many reasons, one of which was the Versailles treaty! Wilson of the good ole US of A my home, <G> did not want to be to harsh on the germans so they might rebuild their infrastructure etc. Not the Military, he just wanted peace (Hence the League of Nations idea) He wanted them to be able to rebuild so they could support themselves. The french however had other ideas, and wished to extract "More then there pound of flesh"! The reparations Germany had top pay for their transgressions during WW1 were absolutely ridiculous! In order to pay them (to make this easy) and operate their economy, rebuild their country (feed it) they didn't have the money.....so they printed more! This drove the value of the Mark so low ,that inflation ran rampant! It did actually at one point take a wheelbarrow load of Marks to purchase a single loaf of bread! Thus comes Herr Hitler, whose psychological rebuilding of the German Psyche was outstanding! He was astute to the uses of propaganda, and brute force. He put people back to work rebuilding the military, made the rich german industrialists richer which pleased them very much! And one can figure it out from here. Two main reasons why WW2 occured.
1) Harsh reparations from the versailles Treaty
2) Hitler just happened to be in the vicinty at this point in time in history. Point 1 was reality.....point 2 was the worlds misfortune
Hajo Out
Originally posted by BotaBing:
Not to simply play devil's advocate, but, I've been thinking a lot about the original post and have the following to offer...
#1 - I believe that one reason why some people seemingly 'worship' the German LuftWaffe pilots is because of the culture in present-day America, not the culture in WWII Germany.
There are many similarities between the adoration and reverence shown LW pilots and the attention and fanaticism shown for modern American professional athletes. Regardless of what you believe or know about someone personally, there is a part of American culture that separates moral judgment from objective respect and admiration for people who are the best at what they do.
How many modern-day athletes can you name who are unbelievably gifted and talented at their chosen sport, but whose personal lives are so twisted and pathetic that you would not let that person date your own daughter. Again and again, the newspaper headlines sport references to the latest athlete to be convicted of spousal abuse, armed robbery, drug trafficking, hate crimes, etc, etc, etc. Yet, that same athlete will be fighting off scores of fans at the next game who are lined up seeking autographs.
Americans are adept at separating their own moral convictions from their respect and awe for the best of the best.
That said, many people would argue that pound for pound, there has never been a collection of aircraft fighter pilots like the German LW. The highest kill records in the history of aviation belong to LW pilots. There are many reasons why, but the bottom line is that they were probably the best.
Some people have awe and respect for German LW pilots just like some others still ask OJ Simpson for his autograph.
#2 - Another reason for the worship of the LW pilots is less complicated, and less perplexing. The anti-social anarchist troll boy.
Some people know that German Nazis were so evil, so incredibly unholy that to do anything similar to praising them or worshiping them will cause people to become upset and angry.
Simply put...some people glorify Nazi German, LW pilots, in order to get a rise out of the rest of us.
#3 - Mystery.
In my book, I am fascinated by Nazi Germany for one simple reason - mystery. How on earth could such a group of modern thinking, educated people be lured and drawn into Hitler's sick twisted plot? What is it about them that is different from me? Could it happen again?
German pilots...some with kill scored of 200+, 300+, flew their planes with a sense of mission and purpose that is hard to fathom. The black-leather wearing Nazi fighter pilots, flying in tight formation saying their "Heil Hitler" and "This is for the father-land" are simply stupifying.
There are very few categories of people in the history of combat that hold such an infamous position. The Japanese Zero pilots. The Nazi fighter pilots. Several of the Native American tribes known and feared for their ferocious style of war. The Spartans, The Mongol Hordes, etc.
Sociologically, they are fascinating and that is probably why some people seem to worship them. I doubt its worship, its probably more accurate to say they are simply fascinated.
-
Originally posted by StSanta:
I'd fly a Spit to stop bombing of Londong
But Lord HaHa would have got on the radio and called you a SpitDweeb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Cobra
-
Suave,
To answer your reply above regarding the state today of Iraq, Kuwayt, etc...
Don't they show you on CNN how many poeple (I'm talkin' children, old men, etc...) are dying everyday, Today because of the embargo ?
Hussein did an "armed robery" & was dealt with. I agree, it had to be done...but there is something wrong, in the sense that this is lasting a little too long...
Wingnut,
I recall being in the Millitary (centuries ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Belgium is a "peacefull country" (Meaning, it's been over 50 years that nobody knocked on our doors with a gun). But I do remember spending countless hours in my "hole" or even back in the Barracks, thinking : "would I be able to shoot that rifle at someone" (shootin, bein' One of the things you "can" do, while in a wartime situation...you get the point.). It is , indeed, a "rough" question to answer. I probably would have done it, but not in the mind of being a "Merc".
<S!>
Saw
-
LOL Cobra
The horror!
------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
-
The best IMO were the CANUCKS there in 39’. We had NO draft in Canada they were all volunteers (biggest non-conscription army in WWII). These guys were 10,000 miles away from any war yet they gave their lives by choice, no one forced them to participate. Who landed more troops per capita and penetrated the farthest on D-day<cough> Johnny Canuck did!!(ops off topic)
btw the pop of Canada back then was a mere 14 million.
-
Amen Torque