Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gixer on March 14, 2004, 05:22:32 PM
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Big news from Spain that Jose Maria Aznar has been defeated because of his support for the US led war on Iraq, which something like 90% of Spaniards apposed.
When al Qaeda was identified to be behind the bombings caused a massive protest against the government. Al Qaeda has now succeeded in removing a government in power.
The new government has already vowed to remove their troops from Iraq by June 30th.
I just think that this event is a major event for the so called war on terror. Never before have terrorists succeeded to cause a change in government and subsquent removal of troops from another country and also the removal of a staunch supporter for the US.
If Bush wins the next election he might find himself very alone as Blair is now hugely unpopular (for the same reasons as Jose Maria Aznar) with no chance winning their next election. And Howard in Australia is also unlikely to win another term.
...-Gixer
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defeated because of his support for the US led war on Iraq,
gix, I havn't been following the Spanish election very closely, but have there been exit polls suggesting that the war on Iraq was the reason that he lost the election, or were there domestic issues too?
I'd be interested to hear more about this.
cheers
Ravs
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Originally posted by Gixer
If Bush wins the next election he might find himself very alone as Blair is now hugely unpopular (for the same reasons as Jose Maria Aznar) with no chance winning their next election. And Howard in Australia is also unlikely to win another term.
...-Gixer
Very interesting result in Spain.
As for Blair, well, yes he is indeed very unpopular but there is not another party fit enough to take over yet. I can't stand Blair and would love to see him out but I doubt that will happen unless the Tories pull their finger out. Incidently, the Conservatives (Tories) did originally support Blair on the war against Saddam and they are the next 'big' political party. It's only the Liberal Pary and Green Party that really opposed Blair's stance and in all honesty I can't see either of them taking power away from Blair either.
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I'll be voting Green next election. I have lost faith in B-liar completely and Michael Howard is, to me, just an opportunist.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
I'll be voting Green next election. I have lost faith in B-liar completely and Michael Howard is, to me, just an opportunist.
Ravs
I've always voted Independant (local) since they have my local interests at heart rather than trying to suck up to the big parties.
Blair, imo, has totally lost the plot. He's too concerned with his public image, his ego, never listens to advice and will not let the public vote on such issues as Europe. The fact that they keep saying how much worse off the country was before 1997 (when they entered power) is simply a diversion away from what they haven't done since then. That's 7 years of doing very little and having even less to show for it.
Do you think the Green Party would reduce our military forces? (are you down in Camberley?)
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While the bombings have clearly had an effect on the voting, there are other aspects:
- First of all, the Popular Party was sure to lose the absolute majority by a good margin. Things like the war in Iraq, the management of the "prestige" spill, and the fact that the popular party didn't want to participate in a televised debate against the other parties played an important role in that.
- But the bombings in Madrid triggered two courses of events that caused the surprise in the election results:
1. The government clearly wanted the citizens to think that the bombing was one of ETA, even when there were leads that pointed to Al Qaeda. Minister Ana de Palacio sent a diplomatic memo to all embassadors asking them to "use every possible chance to make clear it was an attack from ETA and dismiss any rumors stating otherwise" HOURS AFTER they found the koran tapes and other material that clearly showed that the most probable author of the massacre was Al Qaeda.
That caused spontaneous demonstrations in the streets against the government (more than 50.000 in Madrid), feeling they had been purposedly misleaded in order to win votes.
2. The fact that it was Al Qaeda and not ETA brought back the "anti-war" sentiment and, most importantly, made most socialist voters that stayed home in 2000 go vote this time.
That's my analysis, and so take it cautiously, as I may be far off.
Daniel
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Cyrano: So, no change there with Politicians putting 'spin' on the events.
Interestingly, my wife's father (now sadly deceased), who worked for Amnesty International, was a key player in getting the ceasefire agreement between ETA and and the Spanish government. The moment this happened, she just said, 'It's not ETA. ' Looks like (cautiously said as we don't really know yet) she may be right.
Ravs
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Replicant: I really wish we had a good independant candidate in Richmond. I'd vote for him/her without question.
I'm going to vote green next year becasue I do think our planet is getting screwed..and more and more scientists are saying this. To me this is the biggest problem we are facing as a human race which is being overshadowed by the whole terrorist dialogue. It's more of a protest vote than anything, but if more people voted green at least the issue would be put on the agenda.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Gixer
Al Qaeda has now succeeded in removing a government in power.
So if GWB doesnt win the 2004 election it will be an Al Quada Victory by removing him from office?
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Polls prior to the bombings the Popular Party was expected to win the election.
...-Gixer
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Aznar supported the war against 90% opinion polls... but the economy was doing great.
60 soldiers died in a POS ex-soviet plane with a drunk crew and Aznar tried to cover it up... but the economy was doing great...
Public TV lied to us in our faces every day, even with Court orders forcing them to tell the truth, but man the economy was really doing great.
Housing prices kept going up 20% per year and we all have 30 yr. mortgages and burger-flipper salaries. BUT the economy was REALLY doing great (for land speculators at least).
I could add quite a lot of stuff to this list, but it didn't matter, Popular Party was still going to win, but they decided to feed us one more final LIE, and just yesterday it blew up in their faces. So WE, the people of Spain using our sovereignity, booted a Government that mostly ignored or tried to fool us.
The new govt. will fight terrorism at least as fiercely, but hopefully with a better focus than just following His Master's Voice in every stupid adventure...
And yes... one of the Socialist's pre-election promises was pulling out of Iraq if UN isn't in charge there before June, 30.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Polls prior to the bombings the Popular Party was expected to win the election.
...-Gixer
One can only guess what would have happened if they hadn't put a spin in the information regarding the bombings.
Daniel
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Originally posted by Nefarious
So if GWB doesnt win the 2004 election it will be an Al Quada Victory by removing him from office?
No, I was making the point that a significant event "the bombing in Madrid" casued a massive public backlash against the government removing them from office.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
No, I was making the point that a significant event "the bombing in Madrid" casued a massive public backlash against the government removing them from office.
...-Gixer
Gixer, the bombing in Madrid caused a lot of grief and affliction.
The government lying to us about the bombings caused a massive public backlash. And with good reason.
Daniel
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That's really sad :(
Ravs
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Gixer, the bombing in Madrid caused a lot of grief and affliction.
The government lying to us about the bombings caused a massive public backlash. And with good reason.
Daniel
I think the significance here is not that the popular gov sided with America in going to Iraq which is or is not a good thing and is debatable. Spain sided with America because of 911 as did much of the world. The real sigificance is that the popular gov took action against outside terrorism and could not protect its people from internal terrorism. I believe tnis is why the people of spain are upset.
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
I think the significance here is not that the popular gov sided with America in going to Iraq which is or is not a good thing and is debatable. Spain sided with America because of 911 as did much of the world. The real sigificance is that the popular gov took action against outside terrorism and could not protect its people from internal terrorism. I believe tnis is why the people of spain are upset.
Sorry, but I can't agree with that. We were upset because we felt manipulated. The Popular Party did not do much wrong in their first mandate, but having the absolute majority turned them into a "absolutist" kind of government, ignoring the will of the people.
Even without the bombings, the poll prospects were that they would not hold on to the absolute majority, and that a coalition of left-wing parties would throw them out of government anyway.
Daniel
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I'd say that if Spain elected a "coalition of Left Wing parties" then Spain gets the government they deserve......
Quote:
"And yes... one of the Socialist's pre-election promises was pulling out of Iraq if UN isn't in charge there before June, 30."
You better pull-out(or, er, run) then. The UN ain't gonna be "in charge" of Iraq.
C.
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CyranoAH, I dont mean to speak for you or anybody from spain. You are a spaniard so you know better than I do. I can only imagine of a bomb went off in Disneyland or something. Cant even contemplate that.
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That was utterly insensitive.
I'm sure you would have flamed someone who had posted what you did after 9/11.
Idiot.
Ravs
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Originally posted by john9001
it is a clear victory for al Qaeda , you infidels can expect more bombings, the sword of allah will strike again , god willing. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE
Stupid insensitive post, suppose to be funny?
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ravells, it is unfortunate that you do not understand that this will only encourage al qaeda to kill more innocent people to get their way. go hide under your bed, maybe the bad mans will go away.
you cannot 'negotiate' with madmen, you can only kill them.
and calling me a 'idiot' is a personal attack.
no gixer, it was not suposed to be 'funny' it was suposed to introduce you to the real world.
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Fine, John. I'll remember this and express much the same sentiments the next time American people die and their families are shattered.
In the same way you did: it is a clear victory for al Qaeda , you infidels can expect more bombings, the sword of allah will strike again , god willing.
Let's see how 'funny' you find it then.
Sadly, you are even more of an idiot to try and justify what you said rather than make a simple apology.
Ravs
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Originally posted by john9001
and calling me a 'idiot' is a personal attack.
he didn't call you an idiot, your post did....: it is a clear victory for al Qaeda , you infidels can expect more bombings, the sword of allah will strike again , god willing.
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Originally posted by john9001
it is a clear victory for al Qaeda , you infidels can expect more bombings, the sword of allah will strike again , god willing. :rolleyes:
nice john9001
talk about dropping a stinking **** in. jesus.
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i think it was 'insensitive' for the al qaeda to kill 200 innocent civilians and wound 1400 others (some who may still die) and yes,they will try to attack the USA again, maybe your country can negotiate a 'peace treaty' with al qaeda and stay neutral.
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Oh look at you, John, the voice of reason.
In case it had skipped your tiny brain (<-- personal attack) completely there are Spaniards on this board who have no wish to be lectured by you when they are going through a grieving process.
You are the Idiot of all idiots. Honestly! Shut up. the world will be a better place for it.
Ravs
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They had a democratic election not a peace accord with Al Qaeda John.
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The first thing the newly elected PM said was that his first and most important task would be to fight terrorism of any kind. If you think that we voted the popular party out of the government because we want to make a truce with Al Qaeda... boy you are mistaken.
We want to fight terrorism even more now, and remember we HAVE been fighting terrorism for some decades now.
We just want our government to reflect the will of the spanish people, and not go to war when 90% of the population is against it.
As I said, the results without the bombings wouldn't have been THAT different. They wouldn't have had the absolute majority, and no party wanted to unite forces with the Popular Party in Spain, wonder why that is.
Daniel
PS: Oh and my guess is that after the bombings, the spanish government will NOT withdraw our troops from Iraq as a symbol of doing exactly what the terrorists don't want us to do.
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The truly sad thing is that terrorism can never be eliminated. Perhaps Al Qaeda or various criminal militant terrorist groups can be eventually killed but terrorism itslef can never be eliminated. How can you eliminate a "thing" or methodology.
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By helping people and making sure they know the help is personal. It's not rocket science.
Ravs
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MrCoffee--> By killing all those who practice it. It's a quite comman act really, just look back in history.
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When did the war with iraq have anything to do with the war on terrorism.
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I was just thinking aloud. I do think Al Qaeda will eventually ceese to exist. However in looking at the world and knowing that populations will continue to expand etc... along with its associated societies and difficulties. Its easy for me to see terrorism still happening in the year 2050. A totaly different group of people and agendas of course. I guess Im not an optimist.
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read into history. There has always been terrorist in one form or another. Its a war that cannot be won by invading countrys that have nothing to do with it.
You have to cut it off at its money source. Saudi Arabia.
So go ahead and filler up. a good percentage of your cash is going towards the funding of fundamentilist islamic schools and terrorist organizations.
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Like any Democracy, you get the government you deserve.
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Originally posted by Cabby44
I'd say that if Spain elected a "coalition of Left Wing parties" then Spain gets the government they deserve......
amen. The left parties in spain are risible at the very best. The new president has no character at all (it's a puppet in Gonzalez's hands- Gonzalez was president since 1982 'till 1996), and his right hand is an idiot as Caldera is (I'm not trying to put him worse than what it is. I know several people who know him first-hand ,between them some of his professors at the university, and all of them say the same: he is simply Idiot).
We will probably see a coalition of a center-left party (PSOE) with a mid-extreme left party (IU,with a pro-castrist leader) and with an extremist catalonian independist republican party (ERC, his leader tried to talk unilaterally with ETA a few months ago).
The very reason why this has happened has been a mixture of government blunders with very hard media infamation (there's a whole media group called PRISA that has really worked hard to difame the government during the last days, mostly on very dubvious or directly false grounds). There's also the fact that the PSOE itself has used the death of 2 hundred people in a demagogic, bastardly way instead of being at least a bit decent.
what we have seen is media manipulation on a gross scale,mixed with the fact that there's a party of cyinics (PSOE) who would lose their shoul just to achieve a hundred votes more for them. They used pure demagogy with the war against Irak, they used demagogy with anything they could.
just for the sake of comparison, imagine that after 9-11 the Democrat Party impeached bush, supported by the most powerful media group of your nation, and accusing him of causing the terrorist attack because his policy.
And them imagine that the Democrat Party and that media group spends all the time they can yelling the the republicans are lying to the nation, and demanding investigation results just 24 hours after the attack itself.
Here in spain, 60 hours after the attacks there were 5 arrests and there's a very solid line of investigation, there's been an exceptional work by the police and intelligence services. But just 24 hours after the attack, when nothing was clear and many things still pointed ETA as responsible, there already was a Socialist deputy openly accusing the Government of lying and hiding information.
Just 2 days before a general election, with 200 death still hot.
and, yes, they are that low.
In other words, we're in to a four year very funny (because PSOE is risible), very hard (Economy will go under, as will be work paces and antiterrorist fight- remember, one of the partys that will group with PSOE tried to make an unilateral agreement with ETA a few months ago), years impasse. After that, people will come back to their senses and vote the Popular party back...
or we will see Spain disintegrate and fall into a 3rd world status.
Daniel, lo de Ana del Palacio es una manipulacion evidente. La presunta circular a las embajadas (no hay nada que lo pruebe, solo lo dice la SER de "fuentes fiables", que supongo seran las mismas "fuentes fiables" que juran que hubo un terrorista suicida y ahora vete tu a saber donde se han metido) fue impartida entre las 6.15 y 6.30 de la tarde. La furgoneta con las cintas en arabe fue hallada tan solo un cuarto de hora antes. Hasta ese momento nadie dudaba de que habia sido ETA, y Exteriores no es Interior...y Del Palacio no es telépata.
Personalmente no creo que haya habido manipulacion por parte del gobierno,aunque si una muy deficiente forma de propagar la informacion que ha sido explotado por PRISA y el PSOE para lanzar a los cabreados a la calle. Me parece indignante que hayan usado descaradamente esos 200 muertos para esto, pero bueno, nos esperan 4 años de Zapatero presidente, Caldera ministro, Llamazares tambien, y de rotura absoluta de la lucha antiterrorista por la oposicion frontal que ERC va a presentar a cualquier intento de terminar con ETA por via no negociada.
Ya me contaras dentro de 4 años si te alegra o no que esto haya pasado...porque nos esperan tiempos MUY negros.
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Originally posted by Otto
Like any Democracy, you get the government you deserve.
sadly in this case, is true. That a pathetic sad man like Zapatero is going to be my nation's president makes me wanna run outta here ASAP.
There's a lot of very influentiable people in my nation...something like a lemming herd. If the front lemming goes right to the earth's end and falls down, the rest of the lemmings go and follow him without really thinking what they are doing.
it's sad,but it's the truth.That a media group has been able to use the death of 200 to put a new government in place says very little of the intelligence of those who listen, read, or watch that media group and doesn't know to think by themselfs.
Pathetic nation where I live. At least in that regard.
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Regardless of why the Spanish electorate's point of view changed since the bombings, this was a huge victory for terrorism. Terrorists can now claim that slaughtering civilians can change the outcome of an election. As Spanish troops start leaving Iraq, the terrorists will be able to claim credit. And I for one think they are correct. This election will cast a long shadow.
ra
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Al Qaeda 1
Spain 0
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sad - best of luck Spain
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No one has ever succeeded in defeating terrorism with force. Perhaps you will be the first, but I doubt that ... I doubt that very much.
Well if that's the case, I’d suggest our Euro brothers best keep they’re pray rugs and Korans handy. You’re going to need them, if you want to stay alive.
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because we ignore their cause and refuse to change our lives
What was this topic about again? I'm not sure the people in Spain are seeing this in the same light that you are.
Two items I’ve wonder about in life. How people end up being drunks, living in cardboard boxes and how the European Jews, could tamely be herded to their deaths. The first, my brother-in-law has demonstrated for me. The second I’m afraid, is being play out again, on the European continent.
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We shall see.
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Timothy McVeigh, Army of God, ELF, etc. There is always a cause for someone or some people to become terrorists, invading countries won't end it.
Terrorists aren't just foreign, and they will always exist.
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
LOL! You act like terrorism is something new ... "The new big threat to civilization". Europe has been fighting terrorism for ages. Terrorism is not something that wil go away ... ever. You can only hope to deal with it as best you can without making it worse or becoming something worse yourself.
Indeed
Terrorism is not a problem that can be solved. It can only be managed.
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Originally posted by RRAM
Pathetic nation where I live. At least in that regard.
And I was losing hope in my fellow countrymen... not anymore.
RRAM, obviamente nuestros polos políticos son opuestos. Creo que ni las cosas irán tan mal como predices ni tan bien como yo espero, pero es que al fin y al cabo, PP o PSOE, todos son la misma mierda: "políticos".
Yo creo en la alternancia política, y estoy en contra de la mayoría absoluta, que me parece lo más antidemocrático que hay. Por mi, cada partido que tenga una legislatura. Así no se acomodan en el sillón y les da por abusar de su autoridad.
Daniel
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I agree with Cyrano, RRam.
Let's see what they do.
I would like to have the same possibility here in my country, but with the "dictator" holding all the media, will be hard.
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Absolutely, Ra...
My best guess is that Spain will start making demands on the United States and other countries still involved; demands they know we can't meet and use that has an excuse to pull out. Maybe it will help them save face, but it will give the terrorists just the encouragement they are looking for.
I had hoped this attack on Spain would strengthen European resolve, instead it has encouraged 'ostrich' isolationism. Pity.
Originally posted by ra
Regardless of why the Spanish electorate's point of view changed since the bombings, this was a huge victory for terrorism. Terrorists can now claim that slaughtering civilians can change the outcome of an election. As Spanish troops start leaving Iraq, the terrorists will be able to claim credit. And I for one think they are correct. This election will cast a long shadow.
ra
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You warguys know what is alternation in democracy, do you? They could be tired of ppl like Aznar and disagree with the Iraq war. You'll see what will probably happen in Italy as well after years of Mr Berlusconi and his "family" (apply the italian meaning). Euro countries have been fighting terrorism during the last 60 years, with rightist, centre or leftist governments.
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Um, Storch, these were explosives hidden in backpacks. Nobody knew they were explosives until they detonated. What or who would the armed citizenry be shooting at under such circumstances? So I think we do know the answer to that one.
In the same way, the IRA rarely shot people in London, they mostly planted bombs. What good would an armed citizen be against that?
The way in which the IRA problem is being resolved is by constant dialogue and an attempt at forging some sort of understanding into how to get these people stop what they are doing. Frankly, if we had armed every citizen in Northern Ireland I think the place would have become (even more of) a bloodbath and Protestant / Catholic hatred even more entrenched.
There may be good reasons for owning guns, but stopping terrorists who plant bombs is not one of them.
Ravs
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Funny (to the 2nd degree) how some people still think that everything can be solved with war, or violence in general.
As my fellow european citizens have pointed out, terrorism is not new here. Maybe this is why we don't have a knee-jerk reaction after the Madrid bombings. If some of you think that Al-Quaeda has won because the spanish govt changed after elections planned well before the last week bombings, then they should realize that they had even a greater victory in the U.S. because:
- US reputation is at its lowest
- economy is crippled as a result of war in Iraq (which, if it was even aimed at Al-Quaeda in the 1st place, is a huge miss IMO).
- some democratic rights are cancelled/suspended
- normal life is regularly spoiled by rainbow coded threat levels (i.e. airports at Christmas 2003)
- almost every US citizen feels very insecure and see terrorists everywhere
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War on Terror is absurd. Terrorism doesn't follow any of the war rules. The 'enemy' is within and invisible. You'll never win against terrorism by muscles, but you can control it by brains.
In the U.S. you started in the 80s the War on Drugs (if you think about it, there are a lot of analogies between a drug dealer and a terrorist...). Was the goal reached? How did it end? How do you handle the drugs problem now??
And this:
You have given up your right to self defense.
is not only pompous, it's deeply stupid.
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fwiw
99.5% of everything you listed in the above post is incorrect or false
what force exactly does Spain have in Iraq? 1200? what difference did those 1200 make to the terrorists? It isn't about Spains involvement in Iraq, it is about them siding at all with the US. Now they move away from US towards the likes of france
face it or not, the terrorists won with thier bombing and the victims died in vain
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GScholz,
Terrorists aren't so devious and bloodthirsty that they can never be defeated. Study the history of the "Old Man of the Mountain" and his attempt to intimidate and blackmail the Mongols. He quickly fell victim to one of the most ruthless espionage/military campaigns to ever be launched against a "terrorist network." Eventually, some of his own henchmen killed him in an attempt to placate the Mongol leadership.
Shuckins
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Eagler, one can be against terrorism and disagree the way you fight against it.
Same way one can be against communism and disagree the way you fight it. Think about South America. You know, we have friends still missing in Argentina and Chile.
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So if you kill a couple hundred spaniards on trians you can hold the whole Spanish nation hostage? Make an entire nation do whatever you want?
If true then I imagine the spaniards are cowards as a people :(
Europe has taken a huge blow. Terrorists have the upper hand now. All they have to do is kill a couple hundred frenchmen or germans and the wills of entire nations will be theirs.
Pitiful to see the continent once again on the verge of chaos.
Well......this time I say "let them burn"
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Originally posted by Yeager
So if you kill a couple hundred spaniards on trians you can hold the whole Spanish nation hostage? Make an entire nation do whatever you want?
If true then I imagine the spaniards are cowards as a people :(
Europe has taken a huge blow. Terrorists have the upper hand now. All they have to do is kill a couple hundred frenchmen or germans and the wills of entire nations will be theirs.
Pitiful to see the continent once again on the verge of chaos.
Well......this time I say "let them burn"
Well, this time I can say, and I'm not friend of this kind of expressions:
Shut the **** up.
Daniel
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The surprise victor in the election, Zapatero vowed that fighting terrorism would be his first priority as he sets about creating an administration "that will work for peace."
"Today, the Spanish people have spoken, and they said they want a government of change," he said in a victory speech.
Later Monday in a televised news conference the PM-elect said he had two priorities -- working with the outgoing government and mounting an attack on terrorism.
"I am going to fight the violence that also is attacking other nations in this world," he told reporters.
For that he was asking for the support of the Spanish people, he said.
"I want to create an alliance against violence and all kinds of terrorism," he said. "I don't want to create my own war."
On the troops, according to the party spokesman, Zapatero will take the Spanish contingent out of Iraq on June 30 -- the day the Coalition Provisional Authority is scheduled to turn over power to an interim Iraqi government.
The PM-elect has said Spanish troops should never have been in Iraq, because the was no U.N. resolution authorizing military action. Polls show up to 90 percent of Spaniards opposing the war in Iraq.
Sounds like he is intent on fighting terrorism, but that he thinks the Iraq war was/is the wrong way to go about doing it. Is it a victory for Al Qaeda? Maybe, but if it is, we pretty much handed it to them.
Who can blame the spanish people for thinking this US led war on terror is a fiasco? We put taking down AL Qaeda's leadership on the backburner to confront the "imminent threat" of Saddam Hussein, which turned out to be a joke. Had we used our military in Afganistan/Pakistan to the degree that we have in Iraq, we might have disrupted Al Qaeda enough to where such attacks could not have been carried out.
Its long past time we all start questioning whether we are being effectively led in the "war on terrorism".
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Originally posted by john9001
it is a clear victory for al Qaeda , you infidels can expect more bombings, the sword of allah will strike again , god willing. :rolleyes:
OMG
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Originally posted by deSelys
Funny (to the 2nd degree) how some people still think that everything can be solved with war, or violence in general.
As my fellow european citizens have pointed out, terrorism is not new here. Maybe this is why we don't have a knee-jerk reaction after the Madrid bombings. If some of you think that Al-Quaeda has won because the spanish govt changed after elections planned well before the last week bombings, then they should realize that they had even a greater victory in the U.S. because:
- US reputation is at its lowest
- economy is crippled as a result of war in Iraq (which, if it was even aimed at Al-Quaeda in the 1st place, is a huge miss IMO).
- some democratic rights are cancelled/suspended
- normal life is regularly spoiled by rainbow coded threat levels (i.e. airports at Christmas 2003)
- almost every US citizen feels very insecure and see terrorists everywhere
...
War on Terror is absurd. Terrorism doesn't follow any of the war rules. The 'enemy' is within and invisible. You'll never win against terrorism by muscles, but you can control it by brains.
In the U.S. you started in the 80s the War on Drugs (if you think about it, there are a lot of analogies between a drug dealer and a terrorist...). Was the goal reached? How did it end? How do you handle the drugs problem now??
And this:
is not only pompous, it's deeply stupid.
Yes, Life is just absolute hell here. I'm thinking of moving to Cambodia
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Who can blame the spanish people for thinking this US led war on terror is a fiasco?
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Because of the attacks in Spain? Why is this us led "war" a fiasco? US has not had any attacks on soil since 9/11/01 and I am quite certain that was not the intent of AQ, from this perspective I can say "so far, so good".
Spain was apparently caught with its pants down. What else could explain TEN bombs on commuter trains going off on same day? The security in Spain does not look that good to me. With troops OTG in Iraq I would have thought the spaniards would have been better prepared to detect and circumvent this sort of terror.
We will see how Spain figures out now but honestly, it does not look good from news coverage here. It looks as if Terrorism has won in Spain. Final analysis yet to be determined.
Dan, where I come from I can say and think whatever the hell I want. Srry it offends you. actually........
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Originally posted by Martlet
Yes, Life is just absolute hell here. I'm thinking of moving to Cambodia
What does make you think they would accept you?
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Originally posted by deSelys
What does make you think they would accept you?
I'll move to Belgium, then. It's plain they'll take anyone.
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Sorry about that. The thread was pretty civil until now, please carry on.
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As a firm believer in democracy, I think now is the time to drop the "election" climate and start again with our lives. It's crucial that we do it as soon as we can, and with as small anger as it is possible. Although I don't like the election outcome, I just congrat socialist voters. They won a legal election and, most likely than not, Zapatero will be our next president. I hope they do the best for all of us.
But while I think rotation is good for cleanliness in a democratic nation, as Spain is, and in this sense I don't think Socialist party is bad "per se" for us, I would like to point out some facts:
It is false, and a dirty lie, that the Popular Party "manipulated" "lied" or in any manner altered the truth or evaded the facts whatsoever with regards to the news arising from the blasts. The most credible assumption at the beginning was it was ETA's work, thus the first sentences about the bombing. After the van with the arabic tapes was found, the government just "left all hypothesis open for investigation", which is, in my mind, the logical thing to do, after claims on Al-Qaida groups about any possible catastrophe, accident or mass murder happening in western world.
It's only poor democratic praxis that the Socialists cried out and loud "not to use the killing politically" when It seemed it was ETA the responsible and, immediately when the van was found, cry out and loud (and I emphasize Immediately) that the government was lying about the whole stuff. If this is not using the killings on a political way, I don't know then what is the concept.
It comes to no surprise, but with certain degree of sadness, that alike their predecessors in 1930, leftists in this country tend to think that they are the only ones entitled to govern, the only ones that are real democrats, and that consevative parties are straight down fascists. I suppose, thanks to their education reforms back in the eighties, a great majority of people seem to accept this without any further question. Pity for Spain.
About the results themselves, I don't think it is inherently bad, but I'm pretty sure it comes too soon. Socialists made an "opposition" program, so I'm pretty sure they won't be able to comply with their promises. Never they could have thought the would win the election. Their economic team is really poor (if exists at all) and their recent political past record is not the one that makes me mostly confident about our future as a nation.
Even I think this is true, I won't be so cynical as to deny him the beneficial of the doubt.
With regards with Popular Party's 8 years mandate, I think It's been the best period overall since 1.975. And, overall again, Aznar has been the best leader we had. Serious and tough, certainly not a "loving" kind of guy, but a fantastic president. I hope Zapatero is, at least, as good as him.
Popular party made a wonderful task in economics, and put Spain on the side of the Global International scene where we should be. The only problem (which ultimately cost them the election) is the absolutely horrendous comunications and PR management.
Socialist, communist and, to some degree, independentist nationalist, favourites when critisizing Popular Party work are Prestige Spill, and Irak War. Being both Popular Party's successes, it's been perceived as big failures by the average spaniard. Why?....let me guess:
Prestige: A damaged Oil tanker ask permission to harbor the northern coast of Spain. The government, on seeing tanker's bad shape, refuses to give the go ahead and, instead, tows the shipt far away from the coastline, where it sank. It made a decission where whatever they decide would be critisized by the opposition. So they made what they judged right. At the very end, the consequences for the coastal waterline has been very light, compared with previous experiences (Urquiola, Polycommander, Mar Egeo come to mind) I've seen them all, and I can give my first person oppinion.
On the compensation to fishermen and affected people in general, the payments have been made fast and in full, being the very first time this happens (worth mention the 10 year delay that the socialist party previous experience, whit Mar Egeo wreckage, made the affected suffer).
So, a brilliant thechnical success, both in terms of toxic effects and financial help was tainted and, ultimately, perceived as a failure by the people (of course with the invaluable demagogic help of socialists and communists).
Irak war: again, we were embarked on the right side of the deal (both ethically and pragmatically). Let me guess, again:
Muslim fundamentals are not at war with Spain in particular, but with occidental way of living, that they believe is sinful and deserves bloody (literally) destruction. It has nothing to do (even) with Israeli's pretended atrocities (which I believe are no worse than palestinian ones), but with our values as liberal democratic countries. One can choose not to see this, but blindliness about it won't make this less the truth. Having said this, it is a blatant lie that our involvement in Irak's war will make us any different a target as we were before. If anything, we just raise our head among the meek herd that is comfortable in their believing that you can tame the beast by talking....just as Chamberlain did. I don't think so, thus my position in this regard.
But there is more to our alliance with the US. US has showed that they are the only trustful allies when it comes to our spanish national interests, as happened with Perejil Island's affair. It's worth noting that France blocked any EU action on this regard, alleging that they were "bilateral" affairs between Morocco and Spain. Even Morocco invaded some sovereign spanish land. Or France and Germany stance when Irak war seemed inevitable: they meet themselves and gave birth to a letter condemning US's stance in the affair, letter that other EU countries must adhere to, no questions or debate allowed. Nice show of the respect we deserve from France's point of view (and Germany, btw). I applaud Aznar for his decission, and I honestly think he made the right choice. I only hope Zapatero will have a "realpolitik" taste and keep on with our alliance. I have bad feelings about this, tho. It is "good selling" among people which has been feeded with demagogic perorata for quite a big amount of time about this matter.
So, at the very end, Popular Party period put Spain in very good economical shape, put us on the rightful side on the ugly terror war, and left a scape where honesty is the norm and not the exception when it comes to public money (sadly not so usual in the past). Of course an 8 yr. long mandate has lights and shadows but, overall, it's been great times for democracy in Spain, no matter what demagogic chanters try to deny.
Having said that, I think Popular Party developed some authoritarism in their way of conducting politics, and, in that sense, I'm not totally upset about them losing power. Besides that, Zapatero starts with the proverbial clean sheet, as Aznar did 8 years ago: not enough majority, and a clean past. Enough for me.
As a democrat I am all in favour of new blood in our government. As a truth-loving person, I only hope the new one will focus their sights ahead, and make good use of the good things left by Popular Party. They are not few, IMHO.
Sorry for this kilometer-length post. Anyone going its full length has my respect and compassion. ;)
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The first of many countrys that will vote out the government that supported the war in iraq.
The french were right, there was not enough evidence to go to war in iraq. It was just for the neo-con dream, not for the war on terror.
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So when does Bush invade?
Obviously the Spanish love Hussein because the public and current government there aren't Bush lackeys and "loving teh war." Besides, I'm also ready for a two week holiday on Ibiza or the Costa Del Sol and there's nothing cheaper than a vacation in an occupied zone.
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So, the bashing of Spain has started.
Before any act is done, there's already some voice screaming "cowards".
As happened after Nassiryia.
We are still there, even disagreeing with the choise of our ally, even after knowing some of the reasons where utter lies (and Bliar still have to pay for that).
But you started your propaganda campaign against a democratic choise of a foreign and (supposed) free nation.
In your dreams there's a world full of puppets dancing to the music of Fox or CNN, but this dream comes true only in your country, and this made you upset.
Nothing count the fact that the old, bald Europe has managed to survive many bad days, has managed to win many different types of terrorism, your way is the only good one and who disagree is the enemy, friend of the enemy, or just plain stupid.
Go on, go on.
keep kicking in the face your friends.
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Why is this us led "war" a fiasco?
Because we put the emphasis on Saddam & the Iraq government, which events have shown to not be an imminent threat, at the expense of having less resources to direct toward Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda's leadership in Afganistan/Pakistan, which events have shown to be an imminent threat to both us and now Spain.
Had we made Al Qaeda's leadership our military's #1 priority in the 2 and a half years since 9/11/2001 (I mean deploying 140,000 troops against them instead of against Saddam Hussein), I think we would have taken them down. Certainly it would at least be much harder for them to conduct their business. As it is, they are still capable of mounting large scale deadly attacks overseas, as evidenced by the madrid bombings and our constant terror alerts. Meanwhile, the majority of our mighty military machine is stuck propping up a fledgling government in Iraq and not in a position to target the Al Qaeda leadership directly.
Seriously, ask yourself these questions (my answers are in italics):
- What is the primary purpose of our military? To defend us against foreign agression and to ensure that our citizens are able to live in peace.
- How many attacks has Al Qaeda carried out against the U.S. in the past decade?First World Trade center bombing (6 killed), embassy bombings in Africa (224 killed), the USS Cole Bombing (17 killed), 9/11 (2976 killed).
- How many attacks has the former Iraqi government carried out against the US in the past decade? They had a plan to kill the former president Bush when he visited Kuwait that was not carried out.
- The former Iraqi government was portrayed as being an imminent threat to the U.S. with their vast stockpiles of chemical weapons and their aims to use them against us. Now that we have engaged and overthrown them, does this portrayal hold true? No. We have not found any such weapons, nor any evidence that they were going to be used against us
- With regards to our nations security, which is a greater threat to us, the former Iraqi government or Al Qaeda? Al Qaeda
- Given the purpose of our military and that we have a limited amount of military resources to put into the war against terrorism, is it more prudent to allocate the majority of those resources to overthrowing Saddam Hussein or to dismantling Al Qaeda's leadership? Al Qaeda
What would be a victory for Al Qaeda is leaving in power a government that fails to make Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the Al Qaeda leaders the overriding priority in a war on terror.
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Naso, I was being sarcastic towards those who were and remain hawkish, pro-Iraq war and could careless who the US steps on to meet the US administrations goals. Remember the last year here? Anyone against the war were terroists supporters and loved S. Hussein.....?
I personally applaud whatever choices the Spanish *people* make for themselves.
Spain was one of my favorite countries to visit in Europe and I've not a single bad thing to say about the Spanish. They were the friendliest people I ever met in my travels.
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No puedo decir que esté de acuerdo contigo Pepe, pero estoy contento de poder decirtelo sin que ello suponga crispación alguna :aok
Mis padres votan al PP, yo al PSOE, y créeme, si no me gusta cómo lo hacen, votaré al PP. Soy un firme creyente en la alternancia política y un opositor a los gobiernos de mayoría absoluta (sean del signo que sean).
Por haber votado al PSOE, créeme que ahora me lo miraré todo con lupa. Y si en 4 años se presenta Gallardón, seguramente le votaré, dado que es el tipo de político que me gusta.
Daniel
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Originally posted by Westy
Naso, I was being sarcastic towards those who were and remain hawkish, pro-Iraq war and could careless who the US steps on to meet the US administrations goals. Remember the last year here? Anyone against the war were terroists supporters and loved S. Hussein.....?
I personally applaud whatever choices the Spanish *people* make for themselves.
Spain was one of my favorite countries to visit in Europe and I've not a single bad thing to say about the Spanish. They were the friendliest people I ever met in my travels.
Westy, sorry mate, was'nt directed to you, IIRC I was still writing while you were posting.
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Incoming Socialist Party Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero declares "Peace in our Time!"
(http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/chamberlain.jpg)
:( Fools!
You have defecated on the fresh graves of your dead. Be ashamed of yourselves, your whole nation should be ashamed....
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That's completly uncalled and weird GRUN.
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Originally posted by straffo
That's completly uncalled and weird GRUN.
No it's not straffo. The whole nation turned itself to the mercy of the teorrists prcatically before the bodies of the dead even got cold. This will go down in history as a shameful act in much the tradtion of Munich...
Look what the voters did. Its insane and it will just encourage more such attacks.
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Wow Grun, you set a new low. Never ever put anyone in my ignore list. First time for everything.
Daniel
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Well I am royally pissed off that you guys capitualed to the terrorists. I can understand that maybe you are in denial of that and want to ignore it and by extension me....
Is that all it takes to break the will of a free European nation nation these days? My god I do wonder how would you react to a really big attack like 9/11? Would yiu even survive as a nation?
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Grun, we aren't exactly doing too hot over here. Patriot Act, DHS, attacking Iraq in the name of the "war on terrorism", giving more power to the government, airport security checks. Lately people are willing to give up freedoms in the name of security, or in name of the "war on terrorism." That's Al Qaeda's goal.
-SW
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"Who can blame the spanish people for thinking this US led war on terror is a fiasco? "
And who can blame them for pulling out only eight weeks or so before the US forcers are supposed?
Does anyone really expect the Spanish and the remaining meager forces from the "coalition of the willing" to shore up this house of cards being left behind in Iraq?
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Al Qaedas goal is to get us to leave them alone, stop fighting them, leaving them to do whaterever they want to do in the world without interference.
Do you honestly believe that Osama Bin laden sits around in afghan caves and Karachi motels plotting how to inconveniance american travelers at airports? Do you really think that 9/11 was part of his master plan have simpler FBI wire tapping authority?
No!
He attacked the USA because we were getting in his damn way. He attacked the USA because we dont tolerate his behavior or his desires in the world today. He doesnt give a damn whats goinig on in the USA. He only cares what US policy when it affects him and his plans. He hoped that he couls scare us away from fighting him by killing 3000 innocents, it didnt work, not here...
But it does seem to have worked in Spain.. Shameful people, weak people... They are the ones who played righto his hands, by giving up, by giving in, by acquiescing to his demands... And trust me, they will remember how they were able to buy off a European nation, so easily, so quickly - they will remember and mark my words they will try again....
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Originally posted by Westy
"Who can blame the spanish people for thinking this US led war on terror is a fiasco? "
And who can blame them for pulling out only eight weeks or so before the US forcers are supposed?
Do people expect the Spanish and the remaning meager forces from the "coalition of the willing" to shore up this house of cards being left behind in Iraq?
US forces arent leaving iraq.. Why do you feel that yoiu have to lie Westy?
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9/11/2001 was a small part of his bigger plan. Remember, he attacked mostly civilians - not just the US government. Create a government that becomes an enemy of the citizens. Apparently the Spanish already disliked their recently ex-government, the Madrid attack was the straw that broke the camels back. If he does more 9/11/2001 type attacks in the US, will the government attempt to become more controlling within its own borders? Fairly obvious it will, it began with the Patriot Act - remember they (the government) wanted to pass a Patriot Act II as well? Another attack, and who knows what some of the people will be willing to do to prevent more attacks following the next one - if it happens. Civil strife followed by a civil war, all he needs is to create a government thats an enemy of the people...
-SW
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Lying? Gruhnherz I think your trolling and your personal attacks have gone beyond reasonable bounds lately. Then again it's Skuzzy's board and the only posters who've need to fret are those who post porn or anti-war/anti-Bush opinions. Regardless of that.
My understanding from readin multiple sources and reports are that Bush and crew are pushing for Iraqi self rule this June and with it the formal end of the American occupation. In the past couple of months the US has been pulling thier forces back to the outskirts of the towns and cities as well as cutting back on patrols. "Permitting" the new Iraqi "police" to handle more of the load. Once "self rule" has been shoved down thier throats the US forces were to be cutback and *most* returned home. All before the civil war breaks out there of course and while Bush can chach that chip in for some election year "points."
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I'm very upset that free people gave into terrorist murderers so easily. I'm hurt by it. I dont undertasnd how you can give in to people who just murdered 200 of your brothers, sisters, mothers, friends, neighbors, coworkers..... I'm hurt by it, confusded and shocked by it... Its outraegeus. And while i understand that I'm having trouble controlling my emotions regarding this, I cannot just pretend I'm not angry over it, I cannnot just stop worrying about it and the consequences - because you know what? This will only make sure that they try it again in Europe and that possibly hundreds more die... Yet, you cheer this episode as a positive development...
What do Spanish voters want? Did they vote in the Socialists in the hope that that the attacks stop becaiuse the socialists will not fight the terror war any more? If that is true, then I strongly feel they have betrayed thair dead. I feel they decided that there was no point to confront the terrorists and that the 200 dead were enough of a reason to just quit. I feel thats weak and its unjust to the victims - to simply forget them, move on, and prtetend it did not happend by choosing anew goverment thgat wont fight terror war.
Now i understand that you dislike Bush and that you have issues with the way america is defending itself but do you really think that we should habve withdrawn from terror war after 911 like these guys voted to do after the train bombings?
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The fundamental flaw in your argument is that Iraq=AlQueda=War on Terrorism
If Spain were to follow the US's example of fighting the war on terrorism (an invasion of Iraq) then if I were the living in the Honduras I'd be concerned about a Spanish attack any minute.
After 9/11 the US went to Afghanistan. Good move. Now, if all the resources wasted in Iraq had been used in Afghanistan and for action in Pakistan I think the job of finding and eliminating Laden and his group would have been over by now.
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The "war on terrorism" started with 9/11/2001, there really wasn't anything actively out there stopping it. I think there is a different way to go about it, I agreed with Afghanistan - they had to be taken out. I agreed with Iraq, based on the evidence presented - that there were indeed WMDs and Iraq was a threat to its neighbors - but that has been up-to-now proven a complete fabrication. If the war in Iraq was just to remove Saddam, we gained nothing more than enemies from that war and actually created terrorists. Forces are committed to Iraq that could have been in Afghanistan, if Osama and his remaining band of cronies are still even there, providing a much bigger search party to actually fight the "war on terrorism."
I don't like Bush based on his track record. I see him as an enemy of the American people because he evidently has his own vendettas he wants to carry out.
Before anyone posts something from Kerry or about him, I don't like him either so don't waste your time.
-SW
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Originally posted by Westy
The fundamental flaw in your argument is that Iraq=AlQueda=War on Terrorism.
then why does Iraq=Spain=Train=Bomb=AlQueda work?
I do not think it is flawed
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Originally posted by GScholz
Jesus Christ Grun, you are a complete *******! If I could I would have kicked your fat bellybutton all the way back to Croatia and shot you in the neck like the dog you are for saying such a heartless thing! :mad:
You know, you're right ... we do see who our friends really are after something like this happens. You're on my permanent ****list from now until eternity.
You are correct. That was not appropriate. I am sorry to everyone. I was really hurt and perhaps as an American felt betrayed and I got carried away. I apologize.
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Well I'm sure Senator Joseph McCarthy would have thought the same too Eagler.
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I know my comments have been hurtful. But please understand that I'm also deeply hurt by what happend. No I'm not Spanish and no nobody of my family or friends was hurt by it, but i fear more peple will be hurt because i feel it will encourage more attacls. I'm hurt at the gleeful way oppoents of US policy see this reversal only as a blow to that US policy and not in the broader context where it will likely encourge more attacks and more deaths.
Look I'm an emotional guy and get angry easily and sometimes i dont think too much before saying things, on the BBS and in real life too. And i do get in trouble in both areas. my emotions get in the way of what Im really trying to communicate, and yes I'm personally working on improving that as I know i need to get better - its one of my bad character points no doubt.
I am sorry I said the things I said and upset people, its an emotinal time for us all and I should have been more careful in the way I communicated my hurt and my concern about the consequences of this bombing and the election.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Jesus Christ Grun, you are a complete *******! If I could I would have kicked your fat bellybutton all the way back to Croatia and shot you in the neck like the dog you are for saying such a heartless thing! :mad:
You know, you're right ... we do see who our friends really are after something like this happens. You're on my permanent ****list from now until eternity.
Words failed me at first GScholz, and then you said them for me.
Thanks.
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What did Skuzzy say about personal attacks?
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lol grun is from croatia?
no wonder....
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
What did Skuzzy say about personal attacks?
I went too far and was not thinking about people when i wrote that post. I let my focus on my own hurt override reason and ovveride care for other peoples hurt. I was I am wrong, and others people's extreme anger at my comments helped show me that. I prolly deserve to be punished. But I wouldnt want others to be because of me, and especially since they helped me see how wrong I was.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
lol grun is from croatia?
no wonder....
Whats that supposed to mean? Where are from frogman? that one pure nation that that never had problems? The one that didnt fall into the trap of hatred or intollerance? That one saprkling gem of a country that never fought unjust wars? Or persecuted innocent people?
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Here comes Patriot Act II, The European Tour...
Europe - AP
EU Calls Emergency Meetings on Terrorism
1 hour, 8 minutes ago
By CONSTANT BRAND, Associated Press Writer
BRUSSELS, Belgium - The European Union (news - web sites) will hold high-level security talks on Friday to assess what additional anti-terrorism measures to take in the wake of the bombings in Madrid, the Irish prime minister announced Monday.
I have YET to hear one American tell me in detail how the Patriot Act has had a detrimental affect on their freedoms..
Stop looking for Black Helicopters and get on with your lives...
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Heh! This thread has gotten extremely entertaining. It started with such hot topics as terrorism and politics and reached a crecendo with spaniards pooping on their dead and norwegians shooting twinkie-eating croatians. About the only thing this thread is missing is a toothless midget bathing in a bucket and playing with his rubber ducky...
(http://www.clwoodson.com/fdb/midget.jpg)
Welp, there you have it, this thread is ready for closure!
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Lets see, they can secure internet logs without evidence, they can tap phone lines without just cause, and they can place you in detainment due to those items.
Just because it hasn't affected "us" now, doesn't mean there isn't a huge potential for it.
Then again, you simply won't care until it affects YOU so there really is no point in outlining the fact that potential for abuse of power lay right there in the Patriot Act. I'd rather there be no potential, I am not an enemy of the US - therefore I do not like being guilty until proven innocent.
-SW
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Just got word from skuzzy about the apologies, which I accept Grun.
I'll say it once again. Without the bombings, the Popular Party may have won the elections, but not have enough votes to be in the government again.
A coalition of forces would have been elected as the new government in Spain.
Check the polls before 3-11 and you'll see I'm not lying.
Daniel
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Just got word from skuzzy about the apologies, which I accept Grun.
I'll say it once again. Without the bombings, the Popular Party may have won the elections, but not have enough votes to be in the government again.
A coalition of forces would have been elected as the new government in Spain.
Check the polls before 3-11 and you'll see I'm not lying.
Daniel
Thank you Daniel.
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"I have YET to hear one American tell me in detail how the Patriot Act has had a detrimental affect on their freedoms.. "
Most likely you'd not hear from someone who'd experience a detrimental affect on thier freedomsr under the Patriot Act as the due process went out the window. They wouldn't necessarily know thier financial records, emails, house or apartment have been reviewed and searched or that thier phone is tapped. They could also be incommunicado and not have access to a lawyer while they are being "questioned" and "detained" without charges having been filed against them.
But hey. It's your perogative to believe the Patriot Acts are neat and what "we" need. The real truth is you have YET to listen to anyone who's tried to tell you or they failed to hit that magic button that makes the light go on overhead. Your mind is made up and no amount of posting of information or opinion will change that.
However, please, just stop trying to make it sound like the Patriot Acts are innocent, innocuous and for "our" own good. If the US government and Department of Homeland Security were truly serious about protecting the American public then they could have started by spending the money on the available technologies that exist right now and which could do it.
Or else I'll start ranting that the US needs more gun control legislation as only bad people, like terrorists, do bad things with guns and true patriotic, law abiding citizens would have nothing to worry about any further restrictions on thier firearms...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
No it's not straffo. The whole nation turned itself to the mercy of the teorrists prcatically before the bodies of the dead even got cold. This will go down in history as a shameful act in much the tradtion of Munich...
Look what the voters did. Its insane and it will just encourage more such attacks.
You did said that the spanish using their basic democratic right gave the victory to the terrorist.
I disagree
To me if you can't anymore stand the result of a democratic expression it mean that the terrorist have already won your soul.
It's in the nature of a democratic society to not follow a straight path.
If you cannot support how a true democratic nation work I'm sorry to say I can't be your friend anymore .
You choose to call that a weakness I thing it's a force.
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Thank you Cyrano for being so gracious. I am not sure I could have been if I was in your shoes. Now before this thread degrades again. I think it is a good time to put it down.