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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hap on March 15, 2004, 09:13:49 AM

Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 15, 2004, 09:13:49 AM
My guess is the complainers would howl. I finished a couple short works on WW2 focusing on avaition's role.  Here's some approximate dates to consider:

9/39 war begins      5/40 low countries fall        6/40 France falls

BOB summer of '40   Africa '41 & E Front   Yougoslavia early '41

Pearl 12/41  Doolittle 4/42   Midway 6/42 and B-17's hit France

Fall of '42  El Alamein,      Stalingrand holds,          US in Africa

Spring '43 Rommel with drawn from Africa

6/43 Kursk and Reds roll

11/43 Italy falls

3/44 long range bomber escorts into Germany

5/44 B-29's v Japan       6/44 D-day       Summer '45 war ends.


What I see as noteworthy is the turn of the tide from either spring or summer of '42 on via the destruction that bombers created.  As the articles' focus is on air power, I've not mentioned land forces whose sacrifice and efficacy is inestimable.

The picture that emerges is that strategic bombing broke the Axis' back and allowed for land captures via Army and Marines.

Also, in June of '44 Allied command had to decide between oil and communications and the #1 target in Europe.  Ike voted communications.  

Whew sorry for the length of this, but now to the point ... could you imagine what Aces High would be like if our communication system could be porked?  Dunno how it would shake out, but you can picture it i'm sure.  

Leaving a strategic aera with no dar, no radio, no gas, no bombs, and no troops were achieved goals in WW2.

I think adding communication systems to the strat system would increase the game's realism which I would enjoy.  I also would say "yes" to more factory and zone level porking.  Again, more realistic.   Maybe increasing buff's toughness above 25k??

I'm sure I've probably missed a date or two and y'all will correct me.  As far as my conclusions, I equally sure I can count on you to correct those too :)

Title: Re: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: dedalos on March 15, 2004, 10:25:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Hap


Yes, and make it so that the comunications bulding is well visible from 3K out, and it only takes a few 50 rounds to kill.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 15, 2004, 10:29:21 AM
lol
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: dedalos on March 15, 2004, 11:32:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Hap
lol


Sorry, I could not resist :aok
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 15, 2004, 11:52:28 AM
i'd make it tough ... lets see hq is like 19k, i'd make it 15k hard.  if it goes down cntry loses vox and radio for an 1hr except in a tower.  and make buffs tougher over 25k.  let fly where they belong (mostly).  we'd get the jets back up in the high air while jabos do their field work and buffs on facs.

sounds sorta real to me.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: NoBaddy on March 15, 2004, 03:15:10 PM
hmm, still trying to find info on the bombing raids that made all of the Axis radios stop working. Meybe I should google this one :D.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Rino on March 15, 2004, 03:19:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
hmm, still trying to find info on the bombing raids that made all of the Axis radios stop working. Meybe I should google this one :D.


     I think maybe he meant transportation and lines of communication? :)  

     Actually the 8th was a little pissed to be used to support the
Normandy invasion by hitting transportation targets in France
instead of the strategic ones they wanted to target.

     Rino
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 15, 2004, 04:02:13 PM
no need for google baddy.  ike was presented with 2 options in summer of 44  oil or com.  he chose communications.  i don't know how it shook out.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: NoBaddy on March 15, 2004, 05:28:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
I think maybe he meant transportation and lines of communication? :)  

     Actually the 8th was a little pissed to be used to support the
Normandy invasion by hitting transportation targets in France
instead of the strategic ones they wanted to target.

     Rino


I know that's the 'communications' that he is talking about :). That type of warfare is already represented in the strat system we have now. Bomb the city and reduce the availability of transport (ie. what you destroy takes longer to repair).

My point...to point out (via sarcasm) that destruction of nation wide radio communications is inane :).

Hap...here is how it shook out. They bombed the crap outta roads, bridges and railways. Thus, inhibiting the enemy's ability to 'communicate' (bring supplies and troops) to the front.

Sorry, guess I really need to brush up on my sarcasm skills before posting again :D.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 15, 2004, 05:55:40 PM
AH seems lately to have turned into a furball only arena.....

the strat system does very little unless alot of people are hitting the strat, at which point furballers call people "point grabbers"

Strat needs a rework, i mean by the end of WWII most of the airforce was bombers wasnt it?

id like to see bombers used the right way too...im sick of dive bombing lancs, or 1k high b17s  :(
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Ghosth on March 15, 2004, 08:17:50 PM
One thing to consider. AH as it is has virtually eliminated the level bomber.

Give bombers a 10k spawn point away from the field with the H spawn.

If not now, at least consider it for AH2.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Morpheus on March 15, 2004, 11:09:37 PM
Funny thing this thread is. Its not worth taking serious, except for the nice little tid bits of info that hap1 provided for us but other wise its good to read it over just for a laugh.


Quote
Give bombers a 10k spawn point away from the field with the H spawn.


That one really had me goin. I hope you werent serious. Half the fun of flying bombers is to actually well, um FLY THEM...? no? I think so anyways.

Quote
One thing to consider. AH as it is has virtually eliminated the level bomber.


Sad but true. I think alot of times people just hop into the game for a quick flight and then jump out and go about their daily lives.

Lets face it, flying bombers takes time. Although flying fighters and living takes time also the overall durration of the flight seems to be much longer in bombers than that of a fighter. For me anyways.

Bombers are very useful to Aces High. They are great to suicide CV's with, very fun to take up and go afk for several hours and ride on up to 35k and drop eggs from un-godly alts.
If some are very enthusiastic, they can drop FH's, VH's, and other strat on an enemy AF.


Now for the real KICKER

Quote
could you imagine what Aces High would be like if our communication system could be porked


Yeah thats exactly what 200 some odd people wish to do when they log on... Sit in silece while morons run around porking our HQ to kill VOX for the other country and laugh about it.

I think you are missing a simple aspect of this game that makes it what it is. "FUN" People dont want to log on and not be able to talk and BS with one another. I dont know about you hap, well I do but thats besides the point, when i log on, a big part of having fun in the game is joking and laughing with my fellow squadies. Im sure this stands for many other players as well. Now you wish to be granted the ability to take that away?

Lets not forget the "Game" aspect my fellow foe...

Running missions, porking bases, killig HQ's, taking bases and grabbing up every spec of land you can find is one thing. Its apart of the game as we know it...


Quote
Again, more realistic. Maybe increasing buff's toughness above 25k??


Hap, now whats going on here sir?

You call out for a more realistic game and then suggest that HTC makes Bombers "tougher" at 25k and up?
Are you trying to be silly here?

Um im not sure if you know this but bullets fly the same at all alts. The velocity of a round is not effected by the thin air due to high altitudes. Now...

On the other hand if you wanted to make it so guns would freeze up and become inoperable due to the cold climate at high altitudes then that would be something entirely different.

In short, how does adding hardness to a buff at altitudes of 25k and up add to the realism of the game?

I can answer that for you though:D

It doesnt, it just makes it more "Gamey"

And that is a bad thing from your veiw right?

my fellow Foe;)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 04:07:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by NoBaddy
They bombed the crap outta roads, bridges and railways. Thus, inhibiting the enemy's ability to 'communicate' (bring supplies and troops) to the front.  


no doubt about the targets you listed.  so courriers then could not bring instructions as easily as they once had?  were not radio/phone communications also disrupted and damaged as they were on d-day beyond june of '44?
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 16, 2004, 06:08:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS

That one really had me goin. I hope you werent serious. Half the fun of flying bombers is to actually well, um FLY THEM...? no? I think so anyways.
 


yup.... climb out is the best thing and for one thing i find it VERY difficult to get Lancs off a run way at 8k, let alone 10k ;)

I do bomb runs when i need to be AFK alot. for instance i take off 2-3 sectors back (4-5 for lancs) and alt tab alot while checking emails, bbs/forums or porn ;)

Quote


Yeah thats exactly what 200 some odd people wish to do when they log on... Sit in silece while morons run around porking our HQ to kill VOX for the other country and laugh about it.



you have fighters with big guns dont you? :confused: :aok

thats one thing i like about my squad, if they spot bombers THEY cant reach they tell everyone else about it (squad first, then ch2). For instance there was an AR234 running constant runs for 3-4hours last night on our City strat... They reported he was 4 sectors away and i upped a temp, shot him up a bit....... but did the normal thing of getting shot down and swearing loudly at myself :mad: :lol

We always try and kill bombers since they are easy kills (most the time)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Angus on March 16, 2004, 07:49:27 AM
Bombers are too far and few apart in AH now, or that's how I see it. Hell, I almost feel sorry to shoot them down,  -poor pilot having wasted perhaps 30 minutes on climb and cruise.
What one can perhaps do with a medium bomber, one can do better with a jabo, so there's a point.
Take hangar killing for instance, 2x110's can kill around 4 hangars, mostly with rockets and cannons.
Perhaps the "blast" needs to be remodelled to give some purpose to the big bombs. Say that a good stick of 1000 pounders should also deack a base or so. Maybe, some hangars should be bulletproof? Maybe roads and rails could be temporarily stopped by craters, thereby stopping convoys?
All an issue to wonder really.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: slimm50 on March 16, 2004, 08:17:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Sad but true. I think alot of times people just hop into the game for a quick flight and then jump out and go about their daily lives.


Well, sure...I know that's what I do most of the time. I mean, for many of us this is just an interesting "game"...aggghhhh, I said the "G" word!!!! Sad, but true.:p
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 08:53:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
What one can perhaps do with a medium bomber, one can do better with a jabo, so there's a point.
Take hangar killing for instance, 2x110's can kill around 4 hangars, mostly with rockets and cannons.
 


yup angus, you're right.  as things are now, buff role largely cosmetic except for hq.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: hogenbor on March 16, 2004, 09:00:48 AM
Let's see, I've got a 'normal' 9 to 5 job with a moderate amount of stress (manager of a small software test team). No wife, no kids, only a cat. Busy amateur concert photographer, costs a few nights per month and a LOT of sleep (of which a need a lot). Have to wrestle through congested Dutch traffic, have to prepare a meal, feed the cat, pay the bills, answer the mail. Result is that I'm TIRED at about 20:00hr. Have about an hour to get myself shot down, if I feel I can pull the concentration together to play.

Will I up a bomber to struggle to altitude and to screw up calibration and to miss my target which makes no difference to my experience of the game?

No.

I have sunk CV's and killed HQ's with level bombing even flew a Stuka mission with my squad once. But it's boring, plain boring and no gratification at all. Flying a dedicated bomber sortie on which hinges a mission, together with friends and squaddies, that would be a different experience. But where to find that in the MA?

So I'll up my little green P-51B, climb to 17.000 feet, fly all alone all the time and go looking for trouble in the sparse time I fly this wonderful game.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: lazs2 on March 16, 2004, 09:26:37 AM
yep we need to make the game more attractive for the fluffs because we don't attract enough women players and guys who don't own joysticks.

I think fluffs should have zero effect on the game.  The bombs should only make explosions and noise but no damage.   The only use for fluffs should be to fight with other fluffs... they could shoot each other down.

lazs
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: slimm50 on March 16, 2004, 09:28:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by hogenbor
Let's see, I've got a 'normal' 9 to 5 job with a moderate amount of stress (manager of a small software test team). No wife, no kids, only a cat. Busy amateur concert photographer, costs a few nights per month and a LOT of sleep (of which a need a lot). Have to wrestle through congested Dutch traffic, have to prepare a meal, feed the cat, pay the bills, answer the mail. Result is that I'm TIRED at about 20:00hr. Have about an hour to get myself shot down, if I feel I can pull the concentration together to play.

Will I up a bomber to struggle to altitude and to screw up calibration and to miss my target which makes no difference to my experience of the game?

No.

I have sunk CV's and killed HQ's with level bombing even flew a Stuka mission with my squad once. But it's boring, plain boring and no gratification at all. Flying a dedicated bomber sortie on which hinges a mission, together with friends and squaddies, that would be a different experience. But where to find that in the MA?

So I'll up my little green P-51B, climb to 17.000 feet, fly all alone all the time and go looking for trouble in the sparse time I fly this wonderful game.


There ya go!:D
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: lazs2 on March 16, 2004, 09:50:58 AM
hogenboor... by "makeing a difference" do you mean that you would  do the boring task if.....

 the reward were that you could destroy the AH experiance for dozens of other players who had just as busy a day as you had?

Or maybe you just want them to log on and be blind and resourceless when they log on?  

Why should your boring experiance have a huge effect on dozens of people who would just as soon be able to ignore you?

lazs
Title: If AH Were More Realistic........
Post by: Toad on March 16, 2004, 10:10:19 AM
.........everyone posting in this thread would have been worm food a long time ago.

Realism? You don't want realism!
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 16, 2004, 10:42:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
hogenboor... by "makeing a difference" do you mean that you would  do the boring task if.....

 the reward were that you could destroy the AH experiance for dozens of other players who had just as busy a day as you had?

lazs


seems resonable to me....since you "furballers" keep spoiling my fun

i love your constant arguement that buffs spoil your fun :lol

STOP them then ;)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 11:03:54 AM
Quote
AH seems lately to have turned into a furball only arena.....



What a joke, either you have no clue what a furball is or you are flying a completely different game.


Notice no one ever posts a thread about how to make this a better Air Combat game.  Probably because very few are concerned or want to engage in Air Combat.

This game has become an over glorified Strat game with people that run rather than engage.  People that would rather suicide strat rather than fight another plane and die.

I think the time has come for a two country, no strat Air Combat Arena.  The feeble can go to the current MA and bomb till they drop.  Kill Comm, Fuel and anything that isnt tied down so when they log on all the get to do is sit in the tower. :rofl  

The rest that want to fly and compete in Air Combat can do so without the plague of weeners.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: vorticon on March 16, 2004, 11:33:52 AM
" I think the time has come for a two country, no strat Air Combat Arena."

hmm...isnt there a FFA area in the dueling arena?


"the reward were that you could destroy the AH experiance for dozens of other players who had just as busy a day as you had?"

so to stop it you propose they completly remove the strat thus killing the AH experience that as mars has pointed out a large majority of players seem to have?
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: vorticon on March 16, 2004, 11:36:54 AM
oh yes and all this thread needs is beet1e and it can turn into a standard 9 page furball vs. strat montrosity...


*breaks out some vodka and a lawn chair*


then again whats the point...the accusations and arguments are going to be the same as they have been every 2 weeks for the past 2 years
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 16, 2004, 12:52:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
What a joke, either you have no clue what a furball is or you are flying a completely different game.


Notice no one ever posts a thread about how to make this a better Air Combat game.  Probably because very few are concerned or want to engage in Air Combat.

This game has become an over glorified Strat game with people that run rather than engage.  People that would rather suicide strat rather than fight another plane and die.

I pork fuel at bases if its part of the attack plan... i dont plan to die, but normaly lazer ack or 0-300niks finish me off before im 1k from the base.

But it also pisses me off that people pork the fuel even if we told them NOT to (ie we need the base)

The game is over glorified strat? HUH? strat targets cause VERY little difference in "your" game. Im talking factories.......

..... maybe all fuel barracks etc at bases should be removed, and all strat factories grouped away from the lines. The strat factories then dictate what fuel you have.... This will stop suicide porkers at bases as they have to fly through 100s of miles of enermy airspace, and will increase the bombers role... dont you think?

Quote
Originally posted by mars01

I think the time has come for a two country, no strat Air Combat Arena.  The feeble can go to the current MA and bomb till they drop.  .


DA my friend ;)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 12:55:18 PM
can you imagine the germans or japanese complaing that their base and manufacturing resources have been destroyed?
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 01:47:34 PM
The DA is not a dedicated Furball arena - it is a Dueling Arena.

There are three country options which clouds the issue.  

When the ground pounders cry about too much furballing I could say fly off line.  But that would be as absurd as saying the DA is a furball arena.

And what do you guys care if there were an Air Combat arena with no strat model, just Air to Air combat?  You still get to drop all the bombs you want in the Strat MA.

Quote
can you imagine the germans or japanese complaing that their base and manufacturing resources have been destroyed?


Yeah because they were palying a game.  Cmon Hap when you try and compare this to a real life war you don't even come close.  When you try to compare this to a realistic sim, it doesn't come close - fly IL2 if you dont agree, it makes AH look like it is using 20 year old technology and graphics.  Also my bet is that AHII will not be able to touch the level of detail as well, but since it is still in beta I will refrain from judgement till it is released.

The people that fought WWII did it for one reason to end the war.  That is not the goal here, it is to provide entertainment for all.  Your entertainment comes from bombing stuff and reducing your enemies ability to fight back.  My entertainment is to up and engage in Air to Air Combat.  The two are completely different.  While furballing does not take away from Strat pounding, strat does take away from furballing.

Quote
The game is over glorified strat? HUH? strat targets cause VERY little difference in "your" game. Im talking factories.......
Sorry, I'm talking base strat.  Makes all the difference in "my" game.  To me strat is strat.  If you can blow it up on the ground and it needs to be resupplied it is strat.

Quote
oh yes and all this thread needs is beet1e and it can turn into a standard 9 page furball vs. strat montrosity...
Well, until HTC realizes there are two distinct groups in the community that want to play two distinctly seperate games and that both sides are unhappy with the one size fits all approach, you better get comfortable in your lawn chair and order a whole lotta vodka.;)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: NoBaddy on March 16, 2004, 01:55:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Hap
no doubt about the targets you listed.  so courriers then could not bring instructions as easily as they once had?  were not radio/phone communications also disrupted and damaged as they were on d-day beyond june of '44?


Telephone? Yes, but the partisans did more damage to the phones than strategic bombing did. Radio? How? The only possible way would be jamming and that would have nothing to do with bombing a target.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 16, 2004, 02:23:43 PM
but what about the strat idea i commented on?

Quote
..... maybe all fuel barracks etc at bases should be removed, and all strat factories grouped away from the lines. The strat factories then dictate what fuel you have.... This will stop suicide porkers at bases as they have to fly through 100s of miles of enermy airspace, and will increase the bombers role... dont you think?


maybe strat AT the bases should rebuild as fast as hangers? but if the factories are hit you only ever get the max supply they give...IE 75% all fields only get 75%.......maybe factories should be bigger because of this and better protected (ie not right on the front line).

this is purely ideas for AHII

I agree that something needs to be done, but removing strat totaly from the game would be stupid as removing night, and thats already gone......
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 02:41:51 PM
other than finding a way to bring buffs more into the game in a manner that roughly resembles thier ww2 role, i think things are pretty good.  though, porking comm would be sweet.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 02:56:57 PM
I agree with making buffs useful.  I think if things were hardened to the point that you need the payload of a buff to kill it and just plain ole Jabo would not suffice, we would probably see more buff use.

For example if it took 3 full buff loads 1 box of bombers to kill a fuel bunker, then we woiuld not see the suicide dweeb jabos and we might see more buffs.  I could get behind that.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 03:02:48 PM
sure thing mars.:rofl
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Kweassa on March 16, 2004, 03:04:53 PM
The NPA will be a solution :D
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 03:10:24 PM
Yeah I can only dream lol.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 03:16:08 PM
mars, you guys who love a2a above all else, is the ct no good?  honest question because i've not spent much time there.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 03:31:54 PM
Yeah CT is good at times, but the limited plane set sucks and because it is still a strat game the few people that log in sometimes get dispersed and it becomes very boring.

I would like to see an arena that only had two sides with small maps and no strat.  Put some front line bases close together and some rearward bases farther back all with varying terrain.

The maps could change, but all in all it would mainly foster A to A engagements.

I would be curious to see how such an arena would work.  HTC has nothing to lose trying it out and everything to gain in a happy satisfied client base.  If the arena doesn't produce then get rid of it, but I think the numbers in the MA are high enough to support a Strat MA and an A to A MA.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 03:43:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
it is still a strat game the few people that log in sometimes get dispersed and it becomes very boring.

I would like to see an arena that only had two sides with small maps and no strat.  The maps could change, but all in all it would mainly foster A to A engagements.

 


so what you're saying is ah isn't your cup of tea.  the game is desiged around capturing territory.  why fight city hall?
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 04:01:16 PM
You are absolutely right.  The game used to be A to A combat then HTC created the strat game and forgot about the A to A people.  So yes alot of people I know have left the game for this reason.

I am teetering on leaving as well.  I stick around because there are alot of guys that I like to fly with that are still here and I keep hoping HT will do the right thing for people other than the strat guys.  Also Festers maps give hope back to the non strat community.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: vorticon on March 16, 2004, 04:02:20 PM
Quote
Well, until HTC realizes there are two distinct groups in the community that want to play two distinctly seperate games and that both sides are unhappy with the one size fits all approach, you better get comfortable in your lawn chair and order a whole lotta vodka.



3 distinct groups...the only one that is happy are the psuedo strat pork n auger types who would happily move along to real strat if it had any real effect...the trick is making the strat have minimal effects on you furballers...and from what i can tell its only fuel and radar that has a major effect on you...so by adding more and different targets (bomb factory is the first thing that comes to mind) and throwing the fuel and HQ a bit further back could help...and increasing the amount of work needed to take a base...

Quote
For example if it took 3 full buff loads 1 box of bombers to kill a fuel bunker, then we woiuld not see the suicide dweeb jabos and we might see more buffs


nope...they would just pork n auger the hangers and you would be in a even worse position...what would work just as well would be to decrease the amount of damage non bomber planes bombs do...

wait what am i doing...back to the lawn chair...WAITER GET ME ANOTHER MICKEY!!!
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Hap on March 16, 2004, 04:09:39 PM
so ma does not suit.  and ct does not suit.  in general the game does not suit.  that bout right?
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 04:12:30 PM
Quote
3 distinct groups...the only one that is happy are the psuedo strat pork n auger types who would happily move along to real strat if it had any real effect...the trick is making the strat have minimal effects on you furballers...and from what i can tell its only fuel and radar that has a major effect on you...so by adding more and different targets (bomb factory is the first thing that comes to mind) and throwing the fuel and HQ a bit further back could help...and increasing the amount of work needed to take a base...



In my opinion the furball problem in the MA is two fold and I think easily fixable.  1) Harden Fuel  2) move some of the bases closer together.  I could careless about radar.


Quote
nope...they would just pork n auger the hangers and you would be in a even worse position...what would work just as well would be to decrease the amount of damage non bomber planes bombs do...


I would not mind them having to pork the hangers, it takes a very concerted effort to kill all the hangers, not one or two weenie P51s.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 16, 2004, 04:14:20 PM
Your just repeating yourself now HAP lol
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: bj229r on March 16, 2004, 07:05:12 PM
Only thin hacks me off about buffs, other than sometimes all 3 planes getting exACT same damage from 1 burst....is the score thing encourages buffs to attack soft cities, which requires little effort or skill (there IS some skill involved in makin eggs drop where ya want em to, albeit far less than knockin peeps down with fiters) instead of hangars, which require MUCH more effort and make gettin shot down heap much more likely---ya can salvo a stick of eggs on some stupey city from 25k, hit stuff.,..land 7-15 perks...OR do very careful drop on Fh's from 15k or so, fight off la7's and spits the whole way..mebbe kill 1-2 fh's that stay down 15 minutes, (unlike the 45 minutes for easily kilt strats) and IF ya are lucky enough to land...mebbe 3 perks (only useful for 234's...im savin em for B24 or 29). Dont care for the suicide bs.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 16, 2004, 07:16:12 PM
seems alot of people are talking about different problems and all blaming strat flyers.......

...its not hard to up a g10, temp, 262 or a 163 to kill all 3 buffs and surely thats a good thing, because its more kills for you people that seem to rank kills higher than taking bases..........
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 16, 2004, 09:12:11 PM
maybe HT can try it for a month with reduced build time for fuel ammo and barracks (ok maybe not barracks).

how about just 15minutes like hangers?

(note, i had 3 hours spoiled due to suicide porkers.......)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: lazs2 on March 17, 2004, 08:52:28 AM
overlag... I would be interested in just how you feel that the furballers ruin the game for you?  They can have no effect on the way you play short of shooting you down from a dissadvantaged position (lower than you with less e and in slower planes).  

What can a furballer do to ruin the game for dozens of mouse weilding strat girls?   Your only fun is killing toolsheds and gas cans, how can a furballer ruin that for dozens of your ilk?

I mean, mostly we don't even try since the strat girls are such little fun to fight when you do catch em but... even if you do you can only kill em one at a time.

lazs
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 17, 2004, 09:53:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
overlag... I would be interested in just how you feel that the furballers ruin the game for you?  They can have no effect on the way you play short of shooting you down from a dissadvantaged position (lower than you with less e and in slower planes).  

What can a furballer do to ruin the game for dozens of mouse weilding strat girls?   Your only fun is killing toolsheds and gas cans, how can a furballer ruin that for dozens of your ilk?

I mean, mostly we don't even try since the strat girls are such little fun to fight when you do catch em but... even if you do you can only kill em one at a time.

lazs


did i say you ruin the game? infact you make it easyer since you are all low down not killing bombers......

i dont have fun killing tool sheds, I have fun trying to shoot down interceptors of my bomb runs. Bombing doesnt really matter to me, since strat (factorys) cause very little differience in this game. Level bombing is great, if you below 8k dweebs decide to come up a fight.

i have fun taking bases.... i dont think furballers ruin my game. infact i injoy the odd furball, as long as its helpful to taking a base........

everyone is different, just because they dont like (or prefer not to) fly under 8k twisting around in nikis, spits or la7s dont make them girls... furballers are more girly for not engaging bombers, and then whining at the results of the dar going out.........

Now, suicide porkers RUIN the game, thats 1 thing i agree on, its far to easy to kill a bases fuel for 30-45minutes, which is far to long in most cases........

lets see how you turn this around to make me say its your fault again.......:p
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: lazs2 on March 17, 2004, 09:59:40 AM
"seems resonable to me....since you "furballers" keep spoiling my fun "

I am just going by what you said in the avbove and want to know how the furballers spoil your fun and how it matters what their motive is.

Why would furballers engage fluffs since the fluffs are so phony and Ai?   Much more fun to engage another fighter... not here to work or please you... here to have fun.

lazs
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 17, 2004, 10:08:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
"seems resonable to me....since you "furballers" keep spoiling my fun "

I am just going by what you said in the avbove and want to know how the furballers spoil your fun and how it matters what their motive is.

Why would furballers engage fluffs since the fluffs are so phony and Ai?   Much more fun to engage another fighter... not here to work or please you... here to have fun.

lazs


lol I used that line was used because people was saying strat guys spoil furballers fun....... maybe i should have put a roll eyes in there :p

how does a strat guy spoil a furballers fun? bombing strat causes VERY little damage which is a shame, unless its Dar. Most furballers dont need dar.

now suicide porkers (which alot of you call strat guys for some reason) are girls and should be stoped somehow......
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 17, 2004, 10:26:01 AM
oh, and tell me laz... its a game, where your supposed to have fun right?

what is fun? Does everyone find the same thing fun? To me this game was supposed to be realistic (within the fun bounderies).

isnt the idea of this game to take bases? and finish off the other side(s)?

just because people have fun flying bombers doesnt give you the right to take the piss out of them, we dont take the piss out of you, we dont spoil your fun, and you dont spoil our fun.

this is how i get the fun out of this game

1: CV ops vs Land or other CV's, the struggle to sink each other is great + the mess it causes in the sky ;) this turns into a "good furball" does it not???

1b: sinking PT's after we won.... or becoming PT's and trying to kill some planes if we lost

2: attacking bases with the mind of taking them (with fighters or GVS)

3: Intercepting of bombers or IB cons attacking Strat or fields...

4: bombing strat and taking out enermy fighters. Climb out is normaly when im busy with something like reading this trash ;) or watching tv

(notice that bombing is 4th on my list.......)

also notice that i like every aspect of this game, i dont want to stop any part of it, its just annoying seeing alot of 100% furballers wanting this to be furball only land... maybe we should have a map with 3 bases on it, all 5miles apart with massive ack coverage, so neither side can get vulched, that way there will be a 400 plane furball 24/7... is that what you want?:confused:

I dont want to stop your way of flying, and most the time i am flying your way (although probably worse ;)) but i like the diversity of this game, alowing you to get away from the normal stuff from time to time, dont you agree? :confused:
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Virage on March 17, 2004, 10:28:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

What can a furballer do to ruin the game for dozens of mouse weilding strat girls?   Your only fun is killing toolsheds and gas cans, how can a furballer ruin that for dozens of your ilk?

I mean, mostly we don't even try since the strat girls are such little fun to fight...
lazs


Does wonders for this game and community.   Please stop attack posts.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 17, 2004, 10:32:40 AM
Quote
its just annoying seeing alot of 100% furballers wanting this to be furball only land...


Since you included all the furballers here, I'll jump in.  Name one person who you claim to be a 100% furballer that wants this to be furball only land, otherwise don't make statements that are complete speculation and write them like they are fact.

You have some good points and some bad ones don't get mared in the BS.

I have not met a furballer that wants to remove any choices other people have to enjoy the game.  They just want the ability to furball added back to the maps where the current environment is Fuel Pork is king and the bases are too far apart.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 17, 2004, 10:41:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
Since you included all the furballers here, I'll jump in.  Name one person who you claim to be a 100% furballer that wants this to be furball only land, otherwise don't make statements that are complete speculation and write them like they are fact.

 


the fact that most of you want bases within 5miles of each other
the fact that most of you wanted rid of night
the fact that most of you want rid of strat at bases (i just want it rebuilt faster or harder)
the fact that most of you (like laz) constantly call bombers girlies

did i miss anything?


edit: oh and when i say 100% furballer i mean just that, not that everyone that is a furballer at times wants everything removed, the fact that there are some people here that do 1 thing, and 1 thing only and moan about anyone doing anything else.

sure im moaning about them though so that makes me just as bad... :o :eek:

Quote
Originally posted by Virage
Does wonders for this game and community.   Please stop attack posts.


totaly true and proves one of my statments above.......
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 17, 2004, 11:06:24 AM
Quote
the fact that most of you want bases within 5miles of each other
the fact that most of you wanted rid of night
the fact that most of you want rid of strat at bases (i just want it rebuilt faster or harder)
the fact that most of you (like laz) constantly call bombers girlies


These are not facts.  Yes some of the bases need to moved closer together much like Fester has done on his maps, this does not mean that all the bases, give and take here.

It is not just the furballers that want night removed.

I have not seen one thread that said remove strat from bases, I have seen a multitude of threads that say balance fuel pork with an equally easy fuel resupply or harden the fuel.

Laz called bombers girlies and you are trying to turn that into all the furballers.  Cmon man

Don't ask for fairness and then make up stuff.

As for the personal attacks I agree, attack the claims not the person.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: MadMan on March 17, 2004, 01:58:38 PM
I agree that if the Stat (factories) actually had more of an effect than bases straqt, more poeple would level bomb and less would be suicide Jabos...

The only Large strat that has any effect is HQ, and it just kills radar.

If you made fuel dependent on the Fuel Depot/Factory (same with ordinance) and not on the base, it would fix the problem.  Make HQ responsible for DarBar and longrange Dot Radar.  Leave local dotbar at bases.  Leave Troops supplies at bases.  

That would give the level bombers an actual use... to kill fuel and ordinacne, as well as radar at HQ.  Woudl reduce the effect of suicide JABOs, only can kill troops/supplies and local enemy dotdar, they cannot reduce your fuel/ord there.  Ths would also make fighters HAVE to get off the ground and try to intercept Bombers or pay the price.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 17, 2004, 02:26:01 PM
Quote
That would give the level bombers an actual use... to kill fuel and ordinacne, as well as radar at HQ. Woudl reduce the effect of suicide JABOs, only can kill troops/supplies and local enemy dotdar, they cannot reduce your fuel/ord there. Ths would also make fighters HAVE to get off the ground and try to intercept Bombers or pay the price.


I like the idea if the strat that kills fuel and radar is based on zones rather than the whole map.  Therefore there would be more strat to hit  and killing one strat does not kill fuel and radar at every field only at the fields for that zone.

Then the strat needs to be hardened.  One or two boxes of bombers should not be able to drop the strat.  It should take many trips or a large concerted effort to reduce a zone to no radar and 25% fuel.  Since killing strat like this affects many people it should take many people to kill it.  Also Flack shoud be able to reach 25k and blanket the sky.

The rebuild time should also be scaled by the number of bases left in the zone.  If the zone still has all its bases owned by the one country the strat should rebuild quickly, likewise if there are only a few fields left it should take longer for the strat to rebuild.

The only problem I see is if a zone is crippled then many of the defenders that would up from a base behind the front will not be able to and the zone may be left for dead and verry little opposition to the base captures may be put up.  That is kind of boring dont you think?
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: NoBaddy on March 17, 2004, 03:12:53 PM
Frankly, as long as there is no penalty for dying...suicide jabo attacks will continue. In point of fact, suicide jabos even, potentially, can be rewarded in the scoring system. Personally, I'm for 'if you die...you get no score'.

As for level bombers, I would suggest a 5k hard deck to drop bombs. These days, most of them that I see are flying below radar and popping up to carpet bomb without using the bombsight. Making bombs unable to arm below 5k would do more to force folks flying bombers to attempt to use them in a historically correct manner.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: lazs2 on March 17, 2004, 03:13:02 PM
My original idea long ago was to just have a few huge cities in each country that had to be carpet bombed to destroy.... It would take dozens of raids to leverl each city but when the city was leveled the 'war' was over... the strat gi... er..sis.. er "people" could hide from each other and kill buildings to their little hearts content... the rest of us could egange in air combat..  

If people cared who 'won', they could intercept the gamey fluffs.

If not... they could engage in air combat.

lazs
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: NoBaddy on March 17, 2004, 04:04:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

If people cared who 'won', they could intercept the gamey fluffs.

If not... they could engage in air combat.

lazs


Hmm, to be accurate...shouldn't that be "they could engage in gamey air combat? :)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: mars01 on March 17, 2004, 04:26:33 PM
Quote
Frankly, as long as there is no penalty for dying...suicide jabo attacks will continue. In point of fact, suicide jabos even, potentially, can be rewarded in the scoring system. Personally, I'm for 'if you die...you get no score'.

As for level bombers, I would suggest a 5k hard deck to drop bombs. These days, most of them that I see are flying below radar and popping up to carpet bomb without using the bombsight. Making bombs unable to arm below 5k would do more to force folks flying bombers to attempt to use them in a historically correct manner.



Who cares about the suicide dweebs if they cant affect the Fuel.

I love low level bombers, means I don't have to climb to kill them.

Quote
Hmm, to be accurate...shouldn't that be "they could engage in gamey air combat?


Strat is a game, Air to Air combat is competition:)
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: Overlag on March 17, 2004, 05:28:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MadMan
I agree that if the Stat (factories) actually had more of an effect than bases straqt, more poeple would level bomb and less would be suicide Jabos...

The only Large strat that has any effect is HQ, and it just kills radar.

If you made fuel dependent on the Fuel Depot/Factory (same with ordinance) and not on the base, it would fix the problem.  Make HQ responsible for DarBar and longrange Dot Radar.  Leave local dotbar at bases.  Leave Troops supplies at bases.  

That would give the level bombers an actual use... to kill fuel and ordinacne, as well as radar at HQ.  Woudl reduce the effect of suicide JABOs, only can kill troops/supplies and local enemy dotdar, they cannot reduce your fuel/ord there.  Ths would also make fighters HAVE to get off the ground and try to intercept Bombers or pay the price.


wow someone on the same wavelengh as me :D :aok


Quote
Originally posted by mars01


The only problem I see is if a zone is crippled then many of the defenders that would up from a base behind the front will not be able to and the zone may be left for dead and verry little opposition to the base captures may be put up.  That is kind of boring dont you think?


very true, and thats one way i see this idea we are hitting on being a bad thing but as Laz2 says.......


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
My original idea long ago was to just have a few huge cities in each country that had to be carpet bombed to destroy.... It would take dozens of raids to leverl each city but when the city was leveled the 'war' was over... the strat gi... er..sis.. er "people" could hide from each other and kill buildings to their little hearts content... the rest of us could egange in air combat..  

lazs


everything should be bigger, better protected etc maybe a the city, that has the fuel and ammo factories within city too???

and how about this idea....for AHII....

Heavy bombers are only useable in missions, in big groups (if people join missions) ie like they was in real life. Maybe these missions will be auto for the "new cities" or something?

I dunno. Ideas need to be frown into the hat really
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: bj229r on March 17, 2004, 06:33:10 PM
NB, I love the idea about minimum alts for level buffs, except it ought to be 7,500--at 5k, an Osti can hit ya, (1,650 yards)--heavy bombers in ww2 simply didnt do that bs--I doubt, except for Ploesti, any drops were done under 15k
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: NoBaddy on March 17, 2004, 07:01:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
NB, I love the idea about minimum alts for level buffs, except it ought to be 7,500--at 5k, an Osti can hit ya, (1,650 yards)--heavy bombers in ww2 simply didnt do that bs--I doubt, except for Ploesti, any drops were done under 15k


Saw a Wings Channel show on the Marauder. The pilots said that they found the best alts for accurate bombing was above 7.5k. Of course, part of the reason was that below 7.5, they were having to deal with light flak (the osti you speak of :)). I seem to remember one saying that the bombsights worked better up higher also.
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: lazs2 on March 18, 2004, 08:29:21 AM
NB said "Hmm, to be accurate...shouldn't that be "they could engage in gamey air combat? "

No... to be more accurate it should have been "engage in the much less gamey air combat"

As for factories.... I don't think the huge cities should have radar or fuel or whatever factories.   The problem is logging on and not having resources...  those who live on line might appreciate that but most just find it annoying.

No... make the cities simply cities... huge.. when you lose em all you... "lose"... the airfields can't have fuel shut down... that is simply a thinly disguised Pee 51 perk anyway.   Capture a field? sure.. but not pork it first.   You shouldn't be able to make it impossible to take off or have fuel.

move a lot of the fields closer together.  

What you would then see is how people prefered to play..  you would have real choice.

lazs


__________________
Title: If AH Were More Realistic ....
Post by: bj229r on March 19, 2004, 09:21:10 AM
Tho I must admit there IS something appealing about bombing innocent women and children, (and their annoying cars with hip-hop music blaring out)....it's not very fun, because noone is shooting at ya. 'Fluffs' arent what kills airfields anyhow, it's hoards of 51's and tiffys, and getting gas down to 25 is the only way for them to stop the la7's and spits