Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Habu on March 16, 2004, 08:55:35 AM
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The Spanish election sends a strong message to terrorists: if you think we're going to back down in the face of your attacks ... well, you got us. We'll back down.
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Yep it sends a clear message all right, but from some americans to the spanish people. It goes: "We don't care about your politics and we form our opinions without any consideration about what happens in your country".
You can say it louder, but not clearer.
Daniel
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Poland already announced that they would make up the difference in troops when the Spanish pull out of Iraq.
That election was what the Spanish people wanted and that's fine by me and more power to them.
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Unfortunately, I think you are right.... but i don't think it's true though... but I'm sure the terrorist will....
From what I have read, it doesn't seem that that was the only reason for why the elections turned out the wat they did though. My impression is that it was more about how the Government handled the terrorist attacks than about the terrorist attacks in it's self.
and Fortunately, it doesn't mean that it's gonna happen again. If problems get worse because of this, the world will just have to "live and learn". It won't be the first mistake (or the last) a country makes that effects the rest of the world.
I believe in democracy and I support the people of Spain's right to run their country how they see fit.
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Even though the Spanish people are against the war the effect of the Terrorist attack on the election was huge.
It does set a dangerous precident for the terrorists. If we kill lots of innocents right before an election look what effect it has.
The new government by announceing that they are going to pull out of Iraq and support France and Germany more and the US less has really given the terrorists exactly what they wanted.
They punished Spain and Spain did what they wanted.
What the new government should have done is say we will not tolerate attacks on Spanish soil and we are going to work closely with everyone includeing the US to find and punish those responsible. To make the statements they did so soon after the election really did send the wrong message.
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Maybe if we(the US) concentrated on wiping out AQ instead of wasting resources on rushing into Iraq.........
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Spain should invaded Kuwait to keep up with current precidents.
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Originally posted by Torque
Spain should invaded Kuwait to keep up with current precidents.
Your lack of knowledge regarding historical events between 1990 and today is evident in your posts.
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They should take their troop out of Iraq and send them to Afganistan on the Pakistan border. That is where those responsible for the attack are hiding.
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Originally posted by Habu
They should take their troop out of Iraq and send them to Afganistan on the Pakistan border. That is where those responsible for the attack are hiding.
Yes, today that is where they are hiding.
Yesterday?
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Our war on terror begins with al Qaida, but it does not end there. . . . we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. . . President George W. Bush, Joint Session of Congress, September 20, 2001
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Saddam Hussein is paying $25,000 to the relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers -- a $15,000 raise much welcomed by the bombers' families. In Tulkarm, one of the poorest towns on the West Bank, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council handed out the checks from Saddam. The payments have been made for at least two years, but the amount has suddenly jumped up by $15,000 -- a bonus for the families of 'martyrs', to reward those taking part in the escalating war against Israel. . . . Fox News, March 26, 2002
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This general served Saddam Hussein for decades. Along with another Iraqi defector, Sabah Khodada (see below), the general tells of terrorists training in a Boeing 707 resting next to railroad tracks on the edge of Salman Pak, an area south of Baghdad. The existence of the plane has been confirmed by U.N. inspectors. The general describes the men who trained there, the camp's security, and his "gut feeling" that the camp was in some way tied to the Sept. 11 attacks. Iraqi Lt. General, PBS and New York Times Interview, November 6, 2001
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A captain in the Iraqi army from 1982 to 1992, he worked at what he describes as a highly secret terrorist training camp at Salman Pak, an area south of Baghdad. In this translated interview Khodada describes what went on at Salman Pak, including details on training hijackers. He emigrated to the U.S. in May 2001. Sabah Kodada, Iraqi Army Captain, PBS and New York Times Interview, October 14, 2001
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An investigation by Frontline confirmed that Iraqi intelligence had trained at least forty Islamic terrorists between 1995 and 2000 in how to hijacking airliners using a Boeing-747 that was originally Kuwaiti property. Frontline, PBS, November 14, 2001
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Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens. . . . Congressional Resolution Authorizing Force Against Iraq, October 15, 2002
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Shortly before the Sept. 11 attacks, a group of al-Qaida fighters left Afghanistan and set up shop in Iraq as a backup base, according to a report in today‘s Los Angeles Times. Osama bin Laden‘s jihadists established such a base in town of Al Biyara and nearby mountain villages where Kurdish militants had begun imposing the strict Islamic rule much like Afghanistan‘s ousted Taliban regime, according to the Times report. While this base is further evidence of Saddam Hussein‘s recent support of al-Qaida, documented by many intelligence sources over the last 10 years, Iraq is attempting to maintain plausible deniability with regard to the bases – suggesting they are outside the control of the government in Baghdad. Intelmessages.com and Los Angeles Times, December 9, 2002
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The British also released a dossier on Iraq which claimed that at least two key Al-Qaeda lieutenants underwent training inIraq. The dossier also confirmed that Iraq was paying Al-Qaeda to use its Ansar forces based in northern Iraq to attack the Kurdish forces. Reuters, September 14, 2002
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Originally posted by mosgood
Unfortunately, I think you are right.... but i don't think it's true though... but I'm sure the terrorist will....
From what I have read, it doesn't seem that that was the only reason for why the elections turned out the wat they did though. My impression is that it was more about how the Government handled the terrorist attacks than about the terrorist attacks in it's self.
and Fortunately, it doesn't mean that it's gonna happen again. If problems get worse because of this, the world will just have to "live and learn". It won't be the first mistake (or the last) a country makes that effects the rest of the world.
I believe in democracy and I support the people of Spain's right to run their country how they see fit.
...except for that last sentence, what did you say????:(
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I don't see the point in criticizing the spanish citizen : Vox populi vox Dei.
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Originally posted by straffo
I don't see the point in criticizing the spanish citizen : Vox populi vox Dei.
As a whole, what is wrong with criticizm?
There is no question that al Qaeda won an enormous vidtory in Spain over the last week. Prior to the terrorist bombing, Aznar's party was ahead of the socialists in the polls by about 6%. Post-bombing, socialists soundly defeated Aznar's party by about the same margin.
Reasons cited by voters overwhelmingly came down to two issues: Aznar's government pushing the ETA to quickly as the culprits, and support of the US in the war on Iraq. Notably, in the window between the bombing and the election al Qaeda claimed responsibility, and cited Spain's support of the overthrow of Hussein's government as the reason.
One would have to be naive beyond imagination to miss the clear intent here on the part of al Qaeda. The action was deliberately timed to inflame the electorate, and influence the election. They succeeded.
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(http://weather.masterlock.com/images/awl_lnd_cutaway.jpg)
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^^Hopefully we can discuss issues without name calling. I didn't even get close to that other thread. This one seems to be alittle more civil.
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In fact lot of poster here seem to thing that the spanish will stop doing their share against terrorism.
I think it's wrong even with a socialist governement they fought and will still fight terrorism.
And this is the particuliar point I disagree with.
By changing their governement they expressed their tough.
But socialist or not a governement is generally trying to protect his own citizen , this one will choose to do it using a different approach but it will still fight.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Your lack of knowledge regarding historical events between 1990 and today is evident in your posts.
Yes Rip and America has never supported or trained or harboured terrorists. LaRf! :D
Reagan and the SOA was all a myth, right?
Then again i see by your design you should have no problems with Chile violating American soil and taking Kissenger away.
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Unfortunately, I think you are right.... but i don't think it's true though... but I'm sure the terrorist will....
From what I have read, it doesn't seem that that was the only reason for why the elections turned out the wat they did though. My impression is that it was more about how the Government handled the terrorist attacks than about the terrorist attacks in it's self.
and Fortunately, it doesn't mean that it's gonna happen again. If problems get worse because of this, the world will just have to "live and learn". It won't be the first mistake (or the last) a country makes that effects the rest of the world.
I believe in democracy and I support the people of Spain's right to run their country how they see fit.
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Originally posted by slimm50
...except for that last sentence, what did you say????:(
Sorry if it was a little fragmented...
The first paragraph was an answer to the original thread.
What I ment in the 2nd paragraph was that I'm under the impression that how the spanish government handled the attacks is the dominent reason for the way the vote went.
When I said "and Fortunately, it doesn't mean that it's gonna happen again. " I am saying that every situation calls for another choice to be made, and even "if" Spain DID vote in reaction to the terrorist attack, it doesn't mean that the next time there's an attack, it will be the same outcome.
LOL after all that, i guess I really did leave a lot out
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I am sad to say that I really don't know about the political climate in Spain before the bombing. Given that situation, that I think almost all American's posting on this bbs are in, It is hard to comment on a factual status of the outcome of the election.
From what most Americans are seeing in their press the impression is given that the Spanish have caved in to the desires of the terrorists. Right or wrong, that seems to be the thinking of the press and certainly the conclusion of those whose information is supplied by the press. A lack of information regarding the Spanish political issues other than the objections towards Bush / US limits a real understanding of what MAY have been occuring.
I think the insight by Cyrano is valuable as he has brought differing information other than what I have seen in the paper. There is very little pre bombing information in the paper to allow the average American reader to guage an accurate result of the political impact of the bombing.
Unfortunately what IS being printed indicates,to a casual reader, that the entire election was impacted by the bombing and it skewed the results to one favoring ther terrorists position. This impression followed by quotes from the Spanish PM saying they will pull troops out by the June deadline tend to confirm the conclusion.
The feeling is that if this attack could (or did) change an entire countries foriegn policy then it lends credence to terror actions as an effective political tool and encourages further attacks to weaken the "enemy" of the terrorists. If attacks on the civilian populace of a country can so quickly bring that nation to the bidding of the terrorists what reason is there to stop doing so.
Perhaps this situation flies in the face of the Euro common opinions but it is none the less the picture being generated in the US by incomplete knowledge and possibly coverage. Each side of the ocean has their own bias towards their owen side of the pond. The news is geared towards the main concern of the residents of the country. Example, the Spanish are certainly more concerned with events in their own borders and closer to them than on the other side of the globe. This means they get more coverage of regionally local events than does any US paper.
At least that is my impression of it. Your opinion may be different and likely is depending on how much you knew prior to the bombing.
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Thanks Mav, I really needed to read a post such as yours
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Originally posted by Habu
The Spanish election sends a strong message to terrorists: if you think we're going to back down in the face of your attacks ... well, you got us. We'll back down.
I tend to agree with this. Whatever the message the Spanish voters send to their government the terrorists will feel that they have influenced a democracies election.
Expect more violence.:( The terrorists will try one or more attacks in the attempt to influence more elections. If another country changes its votes based on these attacks, then there will be more violence.
I would expect that AQ will attempt to stage another 9/11 in this country as the presidential elections draw near. Think about it. If they can get a president who go soft on terrorism, then they have won. That may be what they are thinking.
To the terrorists we Americans, and possibly the Europeans as well, are nothing but spineless weenies who will cave in if we see blood.
There are, in the end, only two things that will stop them. 1) death (or worse, damnation) or 2) conversion. In either case, Europe and American need to be strong in the face of terrorism. Spain may have sent the terrorists the message that they are weak. As I said earlier, expect more violence.
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Maverick,
I've been starting to feel the same way about news coverage here. All of them seem to have painted the election results as Spain caving in to Al Queda. However from Pepe and Cyrano there seems to be more to the story. I don't know where to get my news from anymore without the typical editorial commentary mixed in. It's supposed to be news right? Not news-n-conjecture, or processed-news-product-marketed-as-news.
mauser
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Finally someone is starting to see the light !!!
;)
Mav and Mauser.
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Those two locked threads were disgusting. And eye-opening as to the true colours of certain individuals posting in them. Had those bombs been in Los Angeles and had those comments been made against American people, then the sky would have fallen in I'm sure.
It seems many Americans on here don't want to consider the political wranglings inside Spain that both predated and precipated the bombings and the election result. The previous President was a lame duck and had no support. The 'blame ETA at all costs' memos were what sunk his party. It was a scandal and the people reacted to it.
Spanish elections a victory for Al Queda? The Iraq war was a victory for Al Queda. It increased their membership, allowed them to kill Americans again, paint America as the imperialistic invader and now insinuate its influence into Spanish politics. By luck or by strategy they've done remarkably well.
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aren't their similiar views in England/euro/Spain even of the bombing and election outcome?
Media here are reporting some newspaper(s)? in Spain sounding like a mini grunz, is this not correct?
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I haven't read any newspapers for a week or more. But I was talking to my cousin and her husband about the Iraq war at Christmas and they talked at length about Aznar and the problems he and his party were facing. I also talked to my cousin this weekend to see how she was. Her works in Madrid occaisionally.
edit: my cousin teaches english in spain and married a spaniard in case my post doesn't make much sense :)
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Channel 366 on DirectTV, if you get it, runs news shows from around the world. It helps to keep the spin from American news from getting out of hand. However, don't expect to find the holy grail of truly unbiased reporting.
The station is officially called News International.
- Sudz
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ya...I would also like to find (if possible) an internet based news source that doesn't have the standard americanized filters. Would be interesting....
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Some of us are concerned about how the Europeans view the election results in Spain. I agree that it is a different perspective than here in the US. But let's not forget that there are others whose perspective we need to be aware of. That's the terrorists. If they can influence the election in Spain do you think it is a possibility to try and influence the elections in the US, Britain, and other countries support us?
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Originally posted by Dowding
The Iraq war was a victory for Al Queda. It increased their membership, allowed them to kill Americans again, paint America as the imperialistic invader and now insinuate its influence into Spanish politics. By luck or by strategy they've done remarkably well.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/bs.gif)
9/11 was a much better recruitment tool for AQ than Iraq was. Besides, we were already "hated" by any fanatical religious muslim groups.
You don't have numbers showing increased AQ membership, but I can give you sources that AQ membership declined thanks to our U.S. forces.
Are you implying that they need more of a reason to hate us? And Iraq was it? again...(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/bs.gif)
If anything, going into Iraq helped mass the crazy-wanna-be AQ fighters in a nice tight group where we could find them all in one location. The U.S. presence in the middle east is like throwing **** on a fly pile. Excellent tactic to not only to draw all the nut cases away from our shores and put them all in one area to eliminate methodically, but clean up Iraq and its harbored terrorist camps in the north and let the other rogue countries know that "A neighborhood Block watch is now in effect"
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If anything, going into Iraq helped mass the crazy-wanna-be AQ fighters in a nice tight group where we could find them all in one location. The U.S. presence in the middle east is like throwing **** on a fly pile. Excellent tactic to not only to draw all the nut cases away from our shores and put them all in one area to eliminate methodically, but clean up Iraq and its harbored terrorist camps in the north and let the other rogue countries know that "A neighborhood Block watch is now in effect"
Amen Ripsnort:aok
As one Marine Sergeant Major said, "It's a perfect war. They want to die, and we want to kill them."
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html
CNN has also obtained an al Qaeda document that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.
The document was published on the main message board that is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers last December.
The strategy spelled out in the document calls for using terrorist attacks to oust Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Partido Popular from power and replace it with the Socialists.
That, in turn, was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.
"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says.
Daniel what do you think about this info?
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I would think that they would pick a country that has more of an impact on the occupation in terms of troops.
BY THE NUMBERS Troops in Iraq
Which countries have provided military support
United States 120,000
Britain 11,000
Albania 70
Australia 1,000
Azerbaijan 150
Bulgaria 470
Czech Rep. 92
Denmark 496
Dominican Rep. 300
El Salvador 360
Estonia 55
Georgia 70
Honduras 370
Hungary 300
Italy 3,000
Japan 250 (750 on the way)
Kazakhstan 25
Latvia 120
Lithuania 105
Macedonia 28
Moldova 25
Mongolia 180
Netherlands 1,100
New Zealand 60
Nicaragua 230
Norway 150
Philippines 95 (175 on the way)
Poland 2,400
Portugal 130
Romania 400
Singapore 200
Slovakia 69 (120 on the way)
South Korea 675 (3,000 on the way)
Spain 1,300
Thailand 443 (30 on the way)
Ukraine 2,000
Sources: Reuters news reports/GlobalSecurity.org.
Maybe we should unleash the Golden Horde. I'm sure they remember what happened last time...
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Originally posted by stiehl
Maybe we should unleash the Golden Horde. I'm sure they remembere what happened last time...
Stiehl, what's the "Golden Horde"? :confused:
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Barbarians.
9/11 was a much better recruitment tool for AQ than Iraq was. Besides, we were already "hated" by any fanatical religious muslim groups.
You don't have numbers showing increased AQ membership, but I can give you sources that AQ membership declined thanks to our U.S. forces.
Are you implying that they need more of a reason to hate us? And Iraq was it? again...
They don't need more of a reason to hate us, but those who wouldn't normally have supported Islamic fundamentalism do. Now Al Aqueda can effectively mimic Michael Palin and say "Come and look at the violence inherent in the system!" It's another stick to beat the US with and a great advertising poster.
"Look at the Imperialist Crusaders invading Muslim land! See how they enslave our people!" Ad nauseum.
Sept. 11th was a bad day for Al Queda in terms of recruitment. The whole world was suddenly behind the US and most supported the action in Afghanistan. You even had rogue states like Pakistan coming on side. Only idiots and the wholly fanatical danced in the streets. Anyone with an ounce of compassion felt that it was an atrocity.
The US and her poodle-like allies pissed all that away with the Iraq invasion, squandering an unprecedented support base in the process. Time will tell how much of a miscalculation it was.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/spain.invest/index.html
.snip.
Daniel what do you think about this info?
My views haven't changed a bit. The decision to withdraw the troops if elected was made long before the bombings and the change of government was caused more by the handling of the crisis than by the crisis itself.
"It can only be ETA" as a motto became old rather fast and the fact that it became known that, if possible, the gov wanted us to think that it was ETA until after the election flicked the switch.
Please bear in mind that 90% of the population didn't want our troops to be there in the first place.
Daniel
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I fear Al Qaeda will view this as victory, regardless of the finer points brought up by people. And I fear it will encourage more attacks.
I find it very easy to picture an Al Qaeda guy in Europe saying to his friends, look it worked in spain, lets do it here too.
Do you think AlQaeda will view spain bombings as validation of their tactics?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Do you think AlQaeda will view spain bombings as validation of their tactics?
I agree with you.
People talk about the US news organizations having filtered out certain data and viewing things with a certain perspective. I agree. But I also think that Al Qaeda does the same thing. It's not just how Europe and the US view the election in Spain, it's how Al Qaeda views the election is Spain.
The results may have had nothing to do with the bombing, but what does Al Qaeda think?
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Please bear in mind that 90% of the population didn't want our troops to be there in the first place.
Very good point cyrano. I believe the vote was simply what the majority of the Spanish people felt was in the best interest of Spain. Please keep in mind the American people do the same thing when we hold elections in this country. We'll most of the time. The Democrats choices are not generally in our best interest.
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Now that everything is getting colder, I'm finding myself more prone to look at the "big picture"
First, I am in agreement with those who think that the outcome of spanish elections is a very, very dangerous precedent, and an amazing finding for terrorists all over the world. Whatever the moral grounds of socialist victory are, which I will discuss further on, the fact is that by terror bombing, a nation changed its vote. Dangerous message in dangerous times.
Withdrawal of our troops is, plain and simple, a mistake. A huge one and the last bit of the victory that the whole act for the terrorirsts was seeking and that is, ultimately, going to achieve.
Al-Qaeda has shown, yet again, that they are a bunch of soulless criminals, who have the guts to make whatever they deem positive for their cause. And, the sooner we realize it, the better, they are a very clever bunch of reptiles.
The timing of the bombings was absolutely perfect, not too soon, not too late, and I'm tempted to admit that they counted in advance with the fierce political use that certain sector of the spanish press (namely grupo Prisa) and certain political spectrum (In which I include Socialist Party, in an absolutely shaming way) did of the bombings. They could count also with the absolutely horrendous comunication skills of the now defeated Popular Party. From my point of view, they succeeded at changing the outcome of the elections, thus they won this battle. And this, which is only my opinion, makes the death of 201 innocents even more painful for me.
The outcome of the election is pure consequence of an emotional vote cleverly manipulated by leftists in our country for months, fueled by press of the kin. And, don't be so naive, given the right choice of time, deaths, press, and manipulation, this can happen to any nation.
It was absolutely vomitive to see how Socialists cried "alltogether now, this is not a political issue" at the very first moments of the blasts, when the most plausible hypothesis was ETA, to turn immediately when the Ministry of Interior said a van was found with arab tapes, and then call "liar, liar" to the government. Jeez, that was not a lie, but the most likely hypothesis with the information ANY spaniard had at that time. Or Rubalcaba (one notable Socialist member of the most corrupt government Spain has seen in democracy) intervention to say "Spain does not deserve a liar government". Shameful. Not so vomitive as some french media (Liberation, if my memory suits me well) stance on the defeated Popular Party, though.
Socialists' political program gives me the impression of a lot of promises never to see the light of the government. I was made under the assumption that they would never win. It was an "opposition" program. They even consider 145 seats to be a "wonderful" result, and their jumping platform for the next poll, in 4 years time. So our president-to-be promise to withdraw our troops has to be analized from that perspective. Now that he won, he needs to stick to his word as close as possible, especially at this very early stages. And preferably with such a sensitive and manipulated issue as Irak war.
About the "willing" of the government to make the people "think" it was ETA, sorry, but I don't buy it. It is the main artifact published by Socialist press in the immediate moments following the van finding. And they succeeded, too. How in the world can anyone with more than one functional brain cell expect that the government could hide any bit of substantial information for any amount of time? No, thanks, I don't believe it.
And the behaviour of Ministry of Interior shows that, whatever their willing was, they did not lie, and they did not hide or delay any findings. Of course, we, in Spain, are used to throw accusations without the need of the proof.
Well....I guess it's how it used to be for ages in my country. Leftists usually have a very hard time accepting defeat. They had them in 1.934, where they tried to overcome a legitimate Right wing victory by means of a Coup-d'etat (something not so frequently told, bot not less the truth), they did when they abandoned power in 1.996, where all kind of bad-style declarations were made, and they repeated now again, with spontaneous (and that's the sad part...it's on their nature, I guess) demonstrations in front of Popular Party headquarters the day before the voting....yep...very democratic. Of course, now they will say it was "the people"...yep...like they did in 1.930, 1.934 and 1.936. They are always "the people".
But such is democracy's greatness. The People has talked, and Mr. Zapatero will be my president in a couple of weeks. The poll was legal and valid, so I accept the results. And, on a positive reading, I think it's good to have a government change. It's only that this is not the right way to do it, in my humble opinion.
Of course, I'm counting that some of my fellow spaniards will come here to call me "fascist"...no big deal, it's been the usual place for the last 2 years. Anyone who cares to defend the ex-government in issues like Prestige spill or Irak war was automatically a fascist, no matter what their reasons could be, which, on the other hand, never were allowed to be heard.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Please bear in mind that 90% of the population didn't want our troops to be there in the first place.
Why they didn't vote Socialist in the Council and Autonomous Governments elections, then?
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Originally posted by weaselsan
I believe the vote was simply what the majority of the Spanish people felt was in the best interest of Spain.
Voting in Spain in March 14th was anything but a rational decision. You simply can't think right when there are 200 citizens in graves and more than 1.500 in hospitals.
Press didn't help to calm things down, either.
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Originally posted by Pepe
Why they didn't vote Socialist in the Council and Autonomous Governments elections, then?
In the council elections the socialist party obtained more votes than the popular party. Just saying...
And in catalonia... well, catalonia has always voted socialist so no contest there.
Daniel
PD: Que noo que no nos vamos a poner de acuerdo Pepe :) Si me he equivocado votando a ZP (el tiempo lo dirá) seré el primero en admitirlo, no se me caen los anillos.
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if the terrorists are so bent at getting ur troops out of Iraq and it is pretty certain they did the bombing, wouldn't that make the average guy in spain want to sent more troops to iraq not pull the ones there out. i mean wouldn't the bombs change the ppl minds to want to kick their arses more not less?
I think a subway bomb or two in the states will make the israeli activity in the gaza strip look like childs play compared to what the average joe demands in the name of revenge
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Originally posted by Pepe
...certain sector of the spanish press (namely grupo Prisa) and certain political spectrum (In which I include Socialist Party, in an absolutely shaming way) did of the bombings. They could count also with the absolutely horrendous comunication skills of the now defeated Popular Party...
...The outcome of the election is pure consequence of an emotional vote cleverly manipulated by leftists in our country for months, fueled by press of the kin. And, don't be so naive, given the right choice of time, deaths, press, and manipulation, this can happen to any nation. ...
It was absolutely vomitive to see how Socialists cried "alltogether now, this is not a political issue"
That is the very true and very sad story. 2 weeks before elections, Popular Party was winning by a wide marging. The scandalous manipulation of the bombing information made by some media and press group (direclty controled by the socialist party), as pointed by Pepe, made the difference. Very sad days for Spain, after the bombing we are rewarded with a group of amateurs without political/social/economical credible programs, mainly because they never considered, even remotely, the possibility of winning the elections in Spain.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
In the council elections the socialist party obtained more votes than the popular party. Just saying...
And in catalonia... well, catalonia has always voted socialist so no contest there.
Daniel
PD: Que noo que no nos vamos a poner de acuerdo Pepe :) Si me he equivocado votando a ZP (el tiempo lo dirá) seré el primero en admitirlo, no se me caen los anillos.
Not trying to convince, but to show that it is not true that Popular Party would lose the elections without the bombs.
Council and Autonomous Government Elections were won by Popular Party....remember D'Ont rules. Socialists lost the elections, and, very mainly, Madrid Community, precisely when Irak, Prestige protesters were wildest. So, bearing this in mind, and what polls showed a day before the bombs, It is not true that Socialists would have won anyway. Of course, neither you nor me have proof on this. ;)
I used to think Catalonia used to vote Convergencia i Unió (conservative) last 20 years ...maybe I'm wrong.
Daniel, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I accept the results as they come. But my respect to democratic rules is no less than the one I profess to truth. So I won't pass the liar accusations, because they are simply false. A manipulation. And it makes me sad because it is the very first sign that Socialist Party has not change after 8 years in opposition.
I would give you that Popular Party "style" had become very arrogant as of lately, and I like the change exclusively for that. Moreover, I will be the first to show admiration to Zapatero if he is able to separate himself from the horrible, villain and absolutely shameful way of "governing" we suffer with the last Socialist Legislature. It would be very hard, and very bad for all, he could make it even worse.
A tí no se te caen los anillos, y yo, que no tengo.... :D
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Me thinks the next target would be Italy. Perfect timing BTW as I'm heading to Rome in April :(
Anyhow I do think this election was helped by the opposition by the terrorist bombings. I do wish other European nations don't lose the ball bearing because we need all the help we can have to erradicate these scum off the face of the earth
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As someone has said here, the election is not the disturbing news to me but rather it is that the new government's announcement that they are pulling out of Iraq, on the heels of the attacks. This to me is a very bad judgment call by the new leadership.......one that makes it seem as though Spain is buckling to terrorism.
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Spanish Socialist = American Democrat = bb balls
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IIRC, the "pulling out" of Iraq was in the election program of the new leader.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Yep it sends a clear message all right, but from some americans to the spanish people. It goes: "We don't care about your politics and we form our opinions without any consideration about what happens in your country".
You can say it louder, but not clearer.
Daniel
Daniel, your people will reap what you sew in your own political landscape as is the same for us come November. Unfortunately, your prime minister elect would not have gotten in had it not been for the actions of the a group of cowards. (bombing) I sincerely hope that he does your country right, but have my doubts. Personally I think he has less of a clue than does Aristide before he was ousted...
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Personally, and while I voted for him (as I said, I'm a firm believer of alternancy), I think he should have postponed the statement about withdrawing the troops from iraq, as it sent a wrong message, even if he had promised it months before the bombings.
Daniel
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Originally posted by Pepe
. How in the world can anyone with more than one functional brain cell expect that the government could hide any bit of substantial information for any amount of time? No, thanks, I don't believe it.
You need to study some Italian History, years '70-'80.
Ustica.
Bologna.
Italicus.
Aldo Moro.
Gladio
Just some of the keywords.
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Originally posted by mosgood
ya...I would also like to find (if possible) an internet based news source that doesn't have the standard americanized filters. Would be interesting....
the BBC is not bad for all it's faults - they've managed to piss off every British Gov that has been in powers for about 75 years so they must be doing something right
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Originally posted by stiehl
I would think that they would pick a country that has more of an impact on the occupation in terms of troops.
BY THE NUMBERS Troops in Iraq
Which countries have provided military support
United States 120,000
Britain 11,000
Italy 3,000
Sources: Reuters news reports/GlobalSecurity.org.
I did'nt knew we was the 3rd nation in absolute numbers there.
I quoted the post as a remainder for the people here that have an "extreme" position regarding any country other than UK.
I disagree with this war since the beginning, I support our troops and the decision made to lend an hand to our ally, and to the civil population of Iraq, but, in the same time I want my government to pressure on the U.S.A. to hand as soon as possible this mess in the hand of the ONU, and/or of the Iraqis themselves, and push out.
In my view, and many other Italian voters, Iraq war is not the same stuff than Afgani war.
Anyway, again, like you (amurricans ;) ) have done after Nassiryia, you are screaming for a retire that yet have to happen, and maybe will happen only when the correct time will come.
Let's wait and see whats bring the future.
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I blame the liberal media