Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BigJim on February 27, 2000, 01:40:00 AM
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I fly AH cause I like to fly simulators, but tonight the game became a dweeb game when I rook B-26 landed at one our fields and killed anyone trying to takeoff to defend the field. As far as I am concerned this is tandamount to cheating and ruins the simulation. Far as I am concerned ALL guns should not fire if wheels are on the ground, fighter, bombers, ANY plane. This is just dweebry as its' highest and ruins an otherwise GREAT SIM
BigJim Out
[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 02-27-2000).]
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I agree whole heartedly....
I think all planes should be NO GUNS if wheels down, on the ground....PERIOD
Would stop all that kind of horse pucky...
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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
"Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
(http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Park/7320/sclogo2.gif)
[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 02-27-2000).]
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This is not a problem anymore when we get the halftrack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And that aint far away either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-
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No way!
Bomber gunners, sure, but I cant count the number of times I have taken off a vulched field and shot some poor sob divin on me at 12:00 while rollin down the runway.
Vulch the vulchers..heh..dont take that away!
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Wasn't much more of sim either when planes did take-off unlimited times from totally leveled field....
Also, when they were able to start engine immediatly as they appear on the runway.
As long as these planes are able to respawn unlimited times without rolling to the runway or having a delay to use guns (note; you can take spitfire up in no time, making guns not available on the ground wouldnt solve that annoying problem)
so long I will keep B-26 as a fair response to this action.
It is only countermeasure against that another annoying problem which field attackers faces everyday.
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Irritatingly, I have to agree with Fishu here. What the hell are you doing taking off from a CAPed field anyway? Take off from a nearby field with a 1C, fly NoE and give that damn 26 the shock of his life...
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I'd luv to see limited spawning at fields...
spawn at X number of revetment sites scattered around field, if planes on all spawn points, or all points bombed out, no more can lift, etc.
Taxi to runway or take off cross-country
but then I'd also like to see friendly collisions, (but keep the killshooter)
Also re-arm and re-fuel points that don't reset yer kill counter, etc. Would make for more incentive to RTB.
Might even start making people avoid the HO's that all say they hate but sure seem to happen a lot.
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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
"Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
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If a 26 is at the spawn point, load up a 1000lb'r and drop it when you spawn.
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Feel free to limit spawning right after the uber-buff's are no longer able to hit a target the size of a drinking glass from an altitude of 35k with a single bomb.
As for the parked buff (shrug...fugn buff pilots) Just pop up in your FlakPanzer and rakem from nose to ass. Opps, well soon anyway.
Wab
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I works both ways. Last night we flattened a field which the enemy made no effort to defend, even though they outnumbered us. We capped the field for quite a while before the goony showed up and dropped his drunks. Then a single Niki spawned and taxi-strafed some drunks before dying in a hail of .50 cal. He saved the field. So we waited for another goony and the same thing happened, only this time with a B-26. We had 2 buffs, 4 fighters, and a goony driver tied up for 60 minutes to finally take that field. It took 1 enemy pilot about 20 seconds of his time to foil our attack twice. There needs to be a way to prevent planes from spawning.
I think all pilot fired guns should be able to fire from the ground, there is no historical reason why they wouldn't be able to. As far as manned guns go, for safety reasons American gunners didn't load their guns until they were in the air. I don't know about other countries.
AKWabbit is right about bombing accurracy, there should be a small degree of error in each bomb drop. Even in no wind situations a bombsight could not be perfectly accurrate.
--ra--
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Make fields closable and this whole discussion is moot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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well there have been several opinions here and all have some points to make. This 26 was PARKED on an ENEMY runway (I don't call this capping a field) and I doubt very much if that EVER happened in the real war. But I do agree with Kierin lets make fields closable and with Wab lets make bombing more of an effort. As for taking off from a capped field I guess this is the pilots choice and won't happen when the flak vehicles appear, but I am sure some interprising guy will find ANOTHER loop hole and in effect game the game which I feel is inappropreate behaviour the programmers at this stage of the Sim can't cover everything and continue to improve the Big things, we need to help with some sense of self restraint with some of these issues.
BigJim
[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 02-27-2000).]
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The map room could be move farther away from the runway spawn point or obstacles could be placed in the way of taxiing fighters.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer
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What Kieren said (*_~)
RAS
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to what lasse said:
"This is not a problem anymore when we get the halftrack "
i wondering what will happen with C47 and Paras when the halftracks rollin around !? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
hmm
cheers
GhostFT
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simple, there will be no ai ack, field defence relying solely upon the players, and it will take a coordinated huge wave of c47s dropping 40 to 50+ troops to take the field.
it all sounds real great in theory,
but in theory communism works
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and halftrack must beyond a shadow of a doubt spawn in cities, not on frigin airfields
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Look both ways while in tower. If the ack is dead and there are fighters and bombers buzzing all over,then take off from a diff feild and SHADDUP!
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"I wondering what will happen with C47 and Paras when the halftracks rollin around!? hmm"
Well. Say you want top capture a field.Well first you're going to have to gain air superiority, then CAP it with not only fighters but jabos too. Perhaps you'll have to throw in your own ground forces to help. Sounds like strat!!!!
Remember! ACK is not done yet. Neither are the vehicles nor aircraft. And this following comment isn't aimed at anyone person in particular but would all of you who are whining just STFU for once and see how this sim progresses over the next several months?
Seems we're due for a big patch soon. It's been almost a month..... Just work with it as it is and go with the flow.
Same day, same stuff. eeEEeeeEEEeeeee... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 02-27-2000).]
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So the conventional wisdom here seems to be.
Once the ack is down at your field take off from somewhere else..Well that would really speaed up the turn around time on fields.
And once there are flak vehicles the normal flack for a field should be disabled...and the flack vehicles should be spawned at a countries city, so the only ack available for field 23 would have to arrive by ground from the area of field 17. A reset(there would be one every hour) would leave 98% of the airfields undefended..and it would take 2 hrs of driving to make them so.
The field capture messages would be scrolling by like torques kills...
The delay on this release of the game is probably more to do with balancing the half track capability into the game then anything to do with the P38.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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What Kieren said.
I also think that sitting a 26 on a enemy spawn point shows very little character.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Originally posted by Pongo:
The delay on this release of the game is probably more to do with balancing the half track capability into the game then anything to do with the P38.
HT said in the arena one night that the halftrak wouldna be added until the tank and flakpanzer were ready and also added to the game.
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No matter how you look at it BigJim's point is correct.
His point is simply that this is supposed to be a flight sim and not just another game. You want a game? There are plenty of them around to play.
Is it reasonable to expect a B26 to land at a German field and then shoot Luftwaffe pilots starting up their planes?
The half track will solve this problem? Not really, because the situation is totaly unrealistic to start with.
The easy answer to solve the unrealistic loophole moves is simple. Do not allow the idiots to fire until the wheels are off the ground.
If your dumb enough to take off from a fully vulched field you should be shot.
Ranger Bob
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Nobody said BigJim was wrong, just that there is more than 1 problem.
It is not realistic for a fighter pilot at a freshly bombed field to jump into a fighter and taxi around strafing paratroopers, knowing that by killing 1 he can prevent capture. One dweeb move spawns another, ie the parked B-26.
If a whole country can't defend its fields from attack, then 1 pilot shouldn't be able to thwart a field capture by taxi strafing.
There should be targets to bomb on or around a field which would render fighters inop.
Turning off a fighter's guns while on the ground is not a step in the direction of realism.
--ra--
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Real simple solutions:
To prevent the endless strafing on the ground by planes spawning just to kill troops:
Give the troops weapons that fire (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Basically, once troops are actually DOWN, it's suicide to spawn at that field as every troop on the ground will rake you with very accurate small arms fire. Oh yeah, and credit the kills to the Gooney Bird driver (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To prevent the enemy from parking on YOUR runway and endlessly killing spawners:
Flak Panzer anyone?
Just put the "motor pool" a short distance away from the field to build in some delay for the FP to get into position.
Once there are vehicles, we'll have a great chance to use all those bomb-laden fighters.
Still, in a perfect world, virtual or not (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), the base would have 8 or so troopers defending it. When the agressor troops land they duke it out with the defenders, and since they have better numbers they wipe out the troops, 2 troops survive and they take the base.
These defender troops (1 per building?) also try and take out any agressors parking just to kill spawners. They are 'coded' with really poor aiming algorhythms that only work on stationary and / or large targets; relatively useless against incoming troops and fast flying planes, but great against anyone who's parked.
This also has the advantage of giving bonuses to heaviliy armored ground attack planes. The p-47 was not a great dogfighter, but in this role (immune to small arms fire) it'd be a great ground support vehicle.
Plus, with one assigned to each building, you essentially get an 'easier to capture' bonus the more damaged the base is. For every building that's flattened there's one less troop defending it.
Just an idea.
~Lemur
[This message has been edited by lemur (edited 02-28-2000).]
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Hi all,
I have watched this thread unfold with great interest, Of course you are all right.
People park a B26 at the end of the runway because people strafe troops. People strafe troops because the games limited AI assumes that just because a couple of ack's have been taken out the field is defencless. What are all the goons in the barracks doing while all this is going on? Yes I know this is still very much work in progress but we pay now so these things should be given top priority, the last thing we need is another bloody fighter. When is the Mossie coming :-).
No offence HTC but human endevour will always triumph, and thats what is happening here, Leave a loophole and it will be exploited, as I am sure happened in 1939 - 45. It's not cheating. I know this is a flight sim and the various flight models are the core of the game (Sorry simulation) but unless it moves towards the "WWII Online" idea (Heaven forbid) the AI has got to be improved 10 fold.
Stopping guns from firing on the ground is just counteracting a realism issue by bringing in more "unrealism" (Unless anyone can convince me that guns actually were inoperable on the ground). Strafing troops in rolling Spit is highly unlikely probably suicidal but I am sure not impossible.
So there you have it, moan, moan, moan. How about some constructive ideas?
1). Only allow pilots to spawn from a field once in a given time period, then they can throw the entire population in to save a field if they want to but most will end up having to re plane somewhere else.
2). Limit the time troops can stay alive once they land, I've had goons refuse to come on a second mission unless I provide the coach fare to the map room, this time could be variable dependant on how much of the field is destroyed.
3). I see craters in runways and planes just rolling over them, surely if the system knows where the holes are it can make planes fall into them and depending on speed you either ditch or die. It's pointless destroying a runway if all it does is make a landing a "ditched" most of the guys taking off don't expect to come back in one piece anyway.
4). Landing at an enemy field should be instant death. Making the runway inoperable would negate the need to do this anyway because short of "driving" around the craters, fighters would not be able to get rolling (Or strafe troops). I'm sure a few well placed 500 pounders could achieve this.
5). Field repair time should carry over into the new ownership. Monday night I did a troop drop with a Spit on my tail, As I broke left after dropping the troops I got "Map room destroyed" and saw this poor guy explode in a hail of ack. (Quite funny but not very realistic all the same).
6). Blow up the fuel or ammo dumps and it does what it says (Can't fly from here no fuel).
I am sure some of these suggestions are niave to many of the old hands out there so fire away, (Ducks behind wall).
TTFN
snafu.
"It's better to burn out than fade away"
(Well everyone else seems to have a sign off).
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Those are all good for some game...but AH is played by capturing fields...if they are not defended then what is the fun of the game. They cannot be defended from 50 miles away especially if those fields have been made inoperable with 4 anti fuel bombs.
If we are going to rewire the game mostly from scratch how about this
If you had more room on the map maybe you could get rid of the concept of fixed fighter fields and just have them showing up as needed on the ground. Have a finite but large number of places that a field can be.
They could come into effect with limited capability and then progress to a full functionality, such fields would not be captured but destroyed (by removing all structures at the sight). So you are trying to capture the main fields (or a series of strat targets) but as you destroy a fighter field a new one appears in another clearing in the same sector..(Unless there are no defending planes in the sector in which case it spawns an attacker strip) It does not appear on the map you have to find it and close it to maintain air superiority in the sector, which allows you to suppress the main fields..
Such fields would not be able to launch Medium bombers until they developed a bit, they would start with no tarmac. They would progress from 25% fuel to full fuel and drop tanks, they would develop barracks over time and never get heavy bombers.
Probable get 2 * 20mm (non laser) ack or start with one and then move to 2
Start them with tents and no radar, evolve to radar maybe.
So the game is to capture the enemy bomber fields but if the country army barracks is up, then the paras are destroyed on hitting the ground. Maybe a % of the paras is destroyed matching the % of country army barracks surviving.
Wouldn’t really need laser acks at the airfields anymore, just normal ones, wouldn’t really need laser norden sights anymore the bombers are going after the barracks which are defended by ack and heavy ack..
This flying circus kind of concept is quite different from currently in AH and of course not at all like the other online games that I know of, but it is more in line with what was done in WW2, fighter bases were hard to find.
Probably a lot less vulching, the bad guys are trying to suppress your army enough to take your fields. Most fighter fields are being hit by fighter-bombers not heavy bombers. Besides you would defend a sector from capture by flying in the sector not launching in it.
Any plane that touches the ground in an enemy sector suffers the same fate as the paras. If 100% of the barracks are up he is captured.
If there is any huge advantage to this in the context of AH it is that it changes very little of the strength of the game or the game itself. You would need the ability to dynamically (or apparently dynamically) place fighter strips but most of the other stuff is there.
An after thought…maybe anything on the ground gets captured or destroyed as a % chance in relation to the surviving barracks every minute. Then a quick strike and para drop might capture a field but highly unlikely.
Anyway quite a different game, with mostly equal numbers it would be pretty static. Even with heavy one sided numbers it would be slower. The team with the numbers would need sustained bombing of enemy barracks to capture the last fields. They would need lots of county wide team work to finish someone off.
Heavy bombers would only ever be able to take off from friendly bomber fields. So they would need protection for a long way. To hit the strat targets.
//edit
1)sector contol should require an ajacent sector in control...
2)fighter strip establishment could be sped up by goon deliveries..
3)Exotic planes could start to be intorduced when very few sectors are under control
4)Tanks and other vehicles could make limited range trips from controled sectors to suppress barracks..(1/2 their range just like the planes)
//end edit
Fire away..
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 02-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 02-29-2000).]
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A lot of good ideas.
Just one more note:
People land with B26 bombers at the spawning location for 1 main reason. To rack up a kill score.
Ranger Bob
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Not really Ranger...I have seen it done to suppress a field.. that is all, normaly i dont think you get alot more kills then you would vulching.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by snafu:
5). Field repair time should carry over into the new ownership. Monday night I did a troop drop with a Spit on my tail, As I broke left after dropping the troops I got "Map room destroyed" and saw this poor guy explode in a hail of ack. (Quite funny but not very realistic all the same).
Field repair time DOES carry over for everything except the acks. Once upon a time it carried over for everything, but some people would wait in the tower, and right after the attacking gooney driver has dropped they would spawn in a C47 and drop thier troops right behind the attacking troops. This resulted in Field XX has been captured by YYYYY. 30 seconds later in the buffer you see Field XX has been captured by ZZZZZ. There was one night, way way back in .37 or so, that field 21 went back and forth like this for several hours. It was shortly after that night that acks were rebuilt on field capture.
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Is it safe to come out from behind the wall?
Pongo, I agree that 4 anti fuel bombs stopping any take off's is a mite silly but perhaps the problem lies in the fact that more smaller (Harder to hit) fuel dumps should exist at many different points around the field, each one reducing the available fuel load by a smaller percentage. Currently the fuel dumps have no strategic importance (25% fuel is plenty to strafe a few troops & if you do get airborne plenty to target a few enemies). This would mean more than 1 Buff would be needed to disable a field, or at least would have to make a lot of passes, This might encourage more of what we saw in the special events arena on Sunday night (Didn't ya just luv it)? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Or more field layouts than those currently on offer. I don't think Bombers should be available at the small fields anyway. Another possible way to protect troops from being chased around the field by enemy pilots could be to have limited access (& exit) to the runway and any plane venturing off the runway would lose it's undercart. Or if planes could not just taxi over bomb craters the opposing force could lay down a line of 250 pounders to stop the guys who want to drive not fly. I had troops mowed down by 3 enemy planes last night and if the goons didn't destroy the map room then the cannon fire should have. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) What about having (Moving) Fuel trucks as well. Very difficult to hit from a bomber but just what we need to practice our ground attacks on (After the ack has been killed of course)
Bye the way fully agree with everything else you said. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cavemanj, Thanks for the info, You have got to admire the resources of the guys spawning C47's (Exploiting loop holes, Human Endevour, Cheating, Call it what you will). But surely Taking the acks rebuild out of the loop for newly aquired fields is just providing a solution to a non existant problem. and has quite possibly contributed to this thread in the first place. Call me stupid (It wouldn't be the 1st time) but taking out the barracks reduces the troop count to zero in goon a mobile doesn't it, (End of problem). If it doesn't it should or whats the point of the barracks as a strategic target? The whole job of taking a field should not be simply a case of kill the acks and vulch away, evey structure should have a purpose. It should require strategy. I don't know how many Goons crammed themselves into a C47 in WWII but I would bet it was sometimes more than 10. Several barrack buildings at a field could allow C47's to take a suplus of bodies to allow for some carnage at the drop site but if some got damaged they would have to either take several C47's (Always thought a single C47 drop taking a field a bit unrealistic) or trust that the field was well and truly disabled. Also Leaving acks down along with everything else means that for a while the new owners are as stretched as the enemy were (Apart from of course they aleady have pilots airborne). Currently if you gain a field the enemy immediatly needs to get a bomber over to take out the acks. Without acks they could counterattack with another C47 and fighter support prepared when it was decided that the field was a lost cause. I suppose the strategy then would be to take the field just before the ack comes back up
Ammo Bunkers, These should be like fuel dumps but reduce the amount of ordinance you can carry. (Shells/Bullets). Unless I am mistaken (Probably) currently they only affect the bombers. Who is going to try and put a bomber up from a field that is being vulched? (Form an orderly queue)
The main problem here is that because no one plays this 24 hours a day (I wish) fields are not watched for long periods. Thats why this is at the end of the day just another game. Without someone based at each field able to scramble aircraft to meet incoming cons the defenders are always likely to end up combating forces with far superior "E" available. Which is why people ack hug, Just once I would like to see someone downed by friendly ack.
Apart from Pongo's alternative scenario I have heard nothing which would require a rewrite. I'm sure the guy in the B26 blowing up planes at the spawn point is just as pissed off as the rest of us when the roles are reversed. It is done because it works. We can stop it working without losing realism.
We are all on the same side (You know what I mean).
Finally a question. Can you capture a refinary for instance (Take out ack, drop goonies) and deprive a country of a resource (Until they can get it back - or take yours). Just a thought.
Just gonna duck back behind this wall to re load.
TTFN
snafu
"It's better to burn out than fade away"
[This message has been edited by snafu (edited 03-01-2000).]