Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: VO101_Isegrim on March 17, 2004, 01:01:56 PM
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Hi Ring, I was browsing through my archieves of the more interesting posts, and I found a post from you with some F-4 data, at 2890kg, with max speed of 540 km/h at SL, and 670 km/h at 6.25km.
Can you post some more details of this ?
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Who's Ring? :)
LEMB 109F-4 Discussion (http://pub157.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=210.topic)
AH 109F-4
Normal loaded weight
6393 lbs.
Armament:
20 mm MG 151/20 150 rpg
2x7.9 mm MG 17 500 rpg
2x20 mm MG 151/20 Gondolas 125 rpg (how many "F's" used gondolas?)
250 kg GP bomb
Drop tank
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/charts/109f4speed.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/charts/109f4climb.gif)
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F1/F2 Kennblatt PDF (F1/F2 data sheet) (http://members.tripod.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/lw/109_F1F2_kennblatt.pdf)
Amerikanische Beschreibung der F4 PDF (American Evaluation Report of a F4) (http://members.tripod.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/lw/109f_evaluation.pdf)
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Armament should be MG151/20 Motorenkannon with 200 rounds not 150 and 135 rounds for the gondolas.
Only 240 F-4/R1 were produced, but it does not necessarily mean they carried the gondolas, only that they could carry it. The Rüstsatz VII (Gondolas) requiring modified F-4 airframes for mounting, those airframe being identified as F-4/R1.
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The 109F-4 has 150 rounds in AH. Even though we know 200 rounds was max capacity its the opinion of some (and apparently the designer) that the standard was 150 rounds (or less the 200 rpg anyway) inorder to reduce jamming.
Previous Discussion (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44503)
Most Recent Discussion (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106364)
All the 109 mg151/20mm nose cannons carry 150rpg in AH.
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Interesting thing about the ammo load. Back in WB, I actually did have the F-4 set up for 200 rounds and the G-6 set up for 150. I don't remember what prompted me to move to the smaller loadout in AH. At any rate, unless somebody has a strong argument against, I have no problem in offering a max load loadout.
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have no problem in offering a max load loadout
Yes please!!!! :D :D
This has been mentioned, and a lot of people faithfully requested the extra 50 rounds :)
I don't see any reason why the 109s shouldn't get a max loadout as an option, when P-47s and P-38s and etc, all have the extra ammunition as an option. :) :) :) !!!!!!
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I don't think anyone will argue with that. Whats your opinion on the g2 having 200rpg?
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Since the cannon jams are not modelled all a/c should have their max load-outs what ever the field practice would have been. So 200pcs of 20mm, please. :)
It would also be nice to have the 15mm option for F (talk about a laser there...). :D
-C+
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Moreover i have several maintenance order and field manuals covering the ammo loading as well as tests and i never found any restriction to the amount of ammo carried.
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Yea 200 rounds plaese, that would be great!!! :)
Pyro I have also seen some sources claiming the correct 30mm ammo load for Bf109 is 65 rounds instead of 60.
Does anyone else remember seeing that info?
Cuz it could be nice to get a few extra rounds if they actually had them that way.
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Yes since i'm the one who produced the documents, so yes the MK108 was loaded with 65 rounds.
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Here's a document from finnish State Aircraft Factory which instructs how to load the ammo box. As you can see after 155 rounds loaded there is still considerable space left in the box.
Very good news Pyro!! :)
Looking forward of those 50 rounds in AHII! :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/302_1079629600_1059687870zy3p.jpg)
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Thats for the Bf109G2?
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Originally posted by Pyro
Interesting thing about the ammo load. Back in WB, I actually did have the F-4 set up for 200 rounds and the G-6 set up for 150. I don't remember what prompted me to move to the smaller loadout in AH. At any rate, unless somebody has a strong argument against, I have no problem in offering a max load loadout.
will changins this add weight to the nose in the model?
if so how much? do you forsee it changing the chareristics of the plane in AH (in the way it flies)?
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Just by the weight of 50 rounds of 20mm and hopefully by 5 rounds of 30mm. I'll take that. :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats for the Bf109G2?
Document is dated 25.10.1943. At that time there were no G-6s in Finland, only G-2s so yes.
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now that ammo load has been discussed how about we comment on performance? :)
quoting from the LEMB thread I linked
copy paste from this thread (http://pub157.ezboard.com/fluftwaffeexperten71774frm9.showMessage?topicID=210.topic) and posted by sagitario
Messerschmitt sheet IV/56/42 dated 1.7.42 shows the following performance (calculated):
Bf 109 F-4 (DB 601 E)
Take-off weight: 2900 kg
Max horizontal speed (clim & combat power):
523 km/h @ 0 m (1165 PS)
572 km/h @ 2000 m (1250 PS)
611 km/h @ 4000 m (1250 PS)
635 km/h @ 6000 m (1185 PS) (VDH)
626 km/h @ 8000 m (940 PS)
Climb times:
0'9 min @ 1 km
1'8 min @ 2 km
3'7 min @ 4 km
6'1 min @ 6 km
9'3 min @ 8 km
Another Messerschmitt page (curves for various fighters) shows:
Bf 109 F-4 (Take-off weight: 2890 kg)
Climb & combat:
525 km/h @ 0 m
635 km/h @ 6000 m
Emergency power:
540 km/h @ 0 m
670 km/h @ 6300 m
Both curves are noted as erflogen (from flight tests).
Yet another one , this time a comparison between Fw 190 (BMW 801C) and Bf 109 F-4 at Rechlin (Kurvenblatt v. E'Stelle Rechlin v. 15.10.41):
Take-off weight: 2890 kg
Climb & combat:
525 km/h @ 0 m
645 km/h @ 6200 m
Emergency power:
540 Km/h @ 0 m
670 km/h @ 6300 m
AH 109F-4
Climb & combat:
315 mph (507kmh) @ sl
385mph (620kmh) @ 20500ft (6248m)
Emergency power:
335mph (539kmh) @ sl
395mph (636kmh)@ 19500ft (5944m)
I read Butch's reply in the thread I linked and its unclear to me when the DB601E was cleared from 1.42ata. From his reply it would be sometime past Jan '42.
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Just noticed something is AH emergency power Start u. Notleistung or climb and combat power? Whats "military power" in the Ah chart?
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Batz, why are the power figures so low in that speed table? In the US 109F4 test posted above the DB-601E is rated for 1400 hp at 16k and 1325 hp available for take-off.
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Are you referring to this?
Max horizontal speed (clim & combat power):
523 km/h @ 0 m (1165 PS)
572 km/h @ 2000 m (1250 PS)
611 km/h @ 4000 m (1250 PS)
635 km/h @ 6000 m (1185 PS) (VDH)
626 km/h @ 8000 m (940 PS)
Because they are climb and combat (30 min limit), Takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung) would be maximum (either 1 or 5 min limit I cant recall).
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Onething about that Ami "test" if you read the LEMB thread you would have noticed the following
The US report from 1943 was a compilation of the British F-2 and F-4 reports with all mistakes included, but the US authors were cautious enough to list the British test data as eastimations.
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not sure if this is rude, but Pyro, why would some vehicles have (if not only, then an option for) maxed ammo and others not?
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Originally posted by Batz
Are you referring to this?
Because they are climb and combat (30 min limit), Takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung) would be maximum (either 1 or 5 min limit I cant recall).
Yes.
So are you saying the AH 109F4 is slower on 10 min WEP than the real F4 was on 30min climb/combat?
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Never mind, I see it now.
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Comparing the AH F4 with the numbers I quoted above I am wondering if the AH "military power" is in fact "climb and combat power? Is "emergency power" in AH really takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung)?
Of course this means agreeing that the numbers I quoted were correct, they may not be as I am no where near qualified enough to say.
If those number are correct it appears that the AH 109F-4 is a too slow.
For instance from my quote above it lists 635kmh @ 6000m climb and combat power (the last set of numbers list 645kmh @ 6200 m).
AH military power is about 620kmh @ 6200m
AH emergency power is about 636kmh @ 6000m almost matching the quoted numbers for climb and combat @ 6000m.
The numbers quoted for emergency power
670 km/h @ 6300 m
Max speed for the AH F-4 is 395mph (636kmh) @ 19500ft (5944m)
So my question is AH military power climb and combat or is ah emergency power climb and combat?
If AH emergency power is really climb and combat power then the AH f-4 maybe too fast OTD and definitely to slow at alt.
Also that would mean that the AH F-4 doesn’t model Takeoff and emergency power (Start u. Notleistung).
Sorry for the confusion.
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'73
I'd think so, as the MK108 certainly does.
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Batz, thanks for posting that part from LEMB, I didn`t know it was discussed also there. Also thanks for putting the discussion on track again - I was bit worried when I saw the first comments.
The 1.42ata boost for DB 601E was allowed from May 1942, according to butch`s post from the old bui forums :
Yes and according to several other Messerschmitt and Daimler-Benz documents the engine had to be derated because of overheating hence the loss of speed. Check for instance the F-4/Z or F-4/R1 manuals as well as the August 1941 issue of the DB601E manual. The full boost was not officialy re-instated until may 1942.
Butch
But now I have read butch`s comments on this on LEMB, so it`s could be cleared in February 1942.
I suspect such new allowences didn`t actually happen from one day to another, what I suspect that these official dates were actually the time by when ALL the engines were recycled in the factories were modified in the neccesary way run at higher boost -and only then DB issued a general note.
BUT individual engines, that were already modified long before must have had an indication of this on their Motor Cards, so, in real life it was likely that the modified engines already run on increased boosts while the others, non-modified ones were still restricted.
Can anybody confirm this or give a better idea?
It appears that the legacy of old Green books still haunt, and performance figures given for F4 are a strange mix of Kampfleistung and Notleistung, but in general the true performance is greatly understated. From these figures, I now understand why LW aces had such preference to the F-4 vs. ealrly G models... at full boost, the F4 was very comparable to the G-2 in performance at most altitudes. I really wonder if there are actual F-4 climb figures exist for 1.42ata - considering the 1.3ata avarage initial climb rate is already impressive at 18.5m/s .
This speed performance figures, and the original data if possible, should be forwarded to Oleg Maddox of Il-2 Sturmovik. Clearly the F-4 figures are only for 1.3ata in Il-2. Most of the fighting on the EFront did place with F-4s when 1.42ata was cleared.
Re : ammo loads...
The F-4 cannon load is clear. 200 rounds. See the Ladeplan, as presented in Otto/Radingers 109F-K.
There`s more confusion. It`s often suggested that from G-4 onwards the ammo box capacity was reduced to 150 rounds, because of the larger tires and lack of space. Personally I doubt that to some extent, taking the actual space gains from making the box 50 rounds smaller... very tiny. But, it counts more in this regard the British evaluation report of G-14 from the 412 xxx series as on the Lair, provided by George Hopp. It has the large tires, in fact the plane itself is probably a G-6 converted to G-14... yet the British report mention the cannon`s ammo tank CAPACITY is 200 rounds, but only 150 rounds are loaded...?? :confused: Just some food for thought.
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I vote for another 50 rounds in the f
ty
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would you rather have 50 more rounds of improved performance?
Is this thread dead?
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AH military would be climb and combat. AH wep is takeoff and emergency.
I don't believe I've ever seen the documents cited above. Are they posted anywhere?
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Hey Pyro can we get 65 rounds of 30mm in the G6 and G10. There is data that shows this loadout, maybe Butch can get that data over to you.
Thanks for the 200 in G2 and I presume F4 later on!
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Pyro I asked the guy that posted that data on the other forum if could email me what he has. If he does I will send it to you.
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red baron implemented jamming and it was fun, more challenging, had to fire shorter bursts. why can't AH do same?
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Pyro could you contact me offboard ? i have the documents you need and i'm willing to send you copies.
My email addy : admin@allaboutwarfare.com
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bf-109 gets 50 more rounds. cool! What about the G6?
:)
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bump
Pyro did you contact Butch?
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Got an email from pyro, i replied twice since i got a delivery error first time i sent the data, i don't know whether the second email got through or not.
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Hi butch!
Did you send him the 65 round 30mm capacity data?
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Hi all
I may get the opportunity to see an old 109 Pilot in a fortnight or so. If there are any special questions you would like me to ask him, please let me know.
Nothing too detailed, rather a general concept I'd think, - those guys are getting old :(
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Hi Angus, have you met with the 109 pilot yet? If not, can you ask him if the view over the nose realy was so limited like it is in AH, or if it was so good as the view from the cockpit pictures that have been posted? :)
EDIT: For example:
http://www.jagdgeschwader4.de/Flugzeuge/Me109/Fotos/Bilder/Bf-109-G2%20(5)_JPG.jpg
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Gruen 65 3cm rounds in AH2!!!
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200 20MM CANNON ROUNDS FOR THE 109G-2 !!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Batz
Gruen 65 3cm rounds in AH2!!!
Saw that. :) Thanks Pyro! WTG HTC!
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I'm thrilled to see the ammo loadout change for AH2
Hi Angus, have you met with the 109 pilot yet? If not, can you ask him if the view over the nose realy was so limited like it is in AH, or if it was so good as the view from the cockpit pictures that have been posted?
Have you tried page up, forward arrow all the way up and save it as the forward position on your hat?
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Yes. The amount of "headspace" in the 109 is extremely limited compared to other aircraft in the game. Moving forward only limit your view even more.
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Hey there Scholzie!
I talked to him on the phone the other day, but due to both of our busyness, we will not meet before the autumn, if even so.
I may meet another one, if so, then on Wednesday.
On thursday I will quite likely meet a former LW wing commander (post war) and from there on be linked better into the old LW society.
I will be keeping in touch with the first one I mentioned from time to time in the future, so I encourage you as a LW geek to feed me with some nice questions. After all, sometimes one line from the old hand will clear more than pages of data.
Hope to hear from you....Prost
(Making holiday in Germany, WTF do the Germans mix the Y and Z on their keyboards)
:lol