Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on March 19, 2004, 03:57:33 PM
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Been kinda slow in here today...
Christianity Debunked..... yikes! (http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/old.htm)
Steps slowly away from the water's edge.....
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The silver bullet (in their eyes) that any christian can lean on is the 'faith' issue.
"Religion is not something that can be indexed, numbered, and filed, it is a matter of the soul!" they will say. "I have FAITH in god, for I know that god has faith in me."
With that, the loop is closed and there is no need for logic, facts, or any other thought process which, if it doesn't help their beliefs, must therefor be tools of the devil. A religious person is someone who can have the answers without the baggage of truth.
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because any book that details nailing someone to a tree for saying how nice it would be if we were all nice to each other for a change cant possibly have any basis in fact and the lessons inside must be total garbage :rolleyes:
so long...your a terrible dolphin
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Found this by a minister in my area....His words..makes sense to me
Many times I purposefully doubt what I believe. Often I take it upon myself to ask, “How do I know what I believe is true?” “How do I know that what the Bible teaches about Christ is right and that the countless other millions, even billions, of people who believe in something or someone else other than Christ are in error?” “Why should I devote my entire life to this?” You might have asked yourself these questions recently. You may have just seen Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” and asked, “How do I know that this really happened.” During these times of doubt, my thoughts always turn to one thing more than any else—the resurrection of Christ. In my mind, if Christ rose from the grave, it is all true. Period. If Christ rose from the dead, what he said was true. If Christ rose from the dead, he deserves my full devotion.
But wait a minute—how do I know that the resurrection actually happened? What makes me so sure that it was an actual historic event? After all, I have never seen anyone rise from the dead. Neither have you. All the people that we have known who died are still dead. How do we know that the event of Christ’s resurrection, which goes against everything that we experience, really happened? Good question. Here is the answer, and notice I am going to place it in italics: Because the Apostles deaths. If they died because of their unquenchable proclamation that Christ rose from the grave, then the Bible is true, and Christ deserves my complete devotion.
What makes their death so significant concerning the “how do you know question?” Why do I say that their deaths verify Christ resurrection, which, in turn, verifies the truth of Christianity? Here is what I ask myself, “Why would they have died for a lie?” “Why would they state they saw something (i.e. the resurrected Christ) when they did not?” Think about that for a minute before you read on. Really, think about it. Here is the only rational answer that I can come up with: They would not have. They had nothing to gain. No popularity and no prosperity was gained from their lives of confession. They could have recanted at any time, but they did not. They chose to go to their deaths rather than denying the truth. What they were confessing must have been true. Christ must have raised from the grave.
I have spent much time researching the death of the Apostles, looking at both primary and secondary historical resources. What is the conclusion of my studies? All but one died a martyr’s death. All but one suffered and died because they proclaimed to have seen Christ die and then to have seen him alive. They all died because of an unwavering, unrecanting claim that Christ rose from the grave. If you do not believe me, do the study yourself. The resources are available.
Therefore, in my mind and for my faith, the gruesome death of the Apostles was one of the greatest gifts that God gave to the Church. It, for me, answers the “how do you know?” question. I have recorded the fruit of my studies on their deaths below. Read through their deaths. Think of this as your devotional for this day. This may sound odd, but in a very real sense, I thank God for killing them. I think you will to.
More exhaustive lists of the early Christian martyrs can be easily attained. Thieleman J. Van Braght’s Martyrs Mirror, and of course John Fox’s Foxes Book of Martyrs are among the secondary sources (although not necessarily the best sources). Early primary sources, such as Jerome, Eusebius, Irenaeus, Clemens, Polycarp, Hippolytus, Dionysius, Josephus, and many others give strong historical evidences that the Apostle’s sealed their testimony of a risen Christ with their own blood.
(1) The Apostle James
44-45 A.D.
James the Apostle of the Lord was the second recorded martyr after Christ’s death (Stephen was the first). His death is recorded in Acts 12:2 where it is told that Herod Agrippa killed him with a sword. Clemens Alexandrinus and Eusebius both tell how the executioner witnessed the courage and unrecanting spirit of James and was then convinced of Christ resurrection and was then executed along with James.
(2) The Apostle Peter
64 A.D.
Although Peter denied that he even knew Christ three times just before Christ’s death, after the resurrection he did not do so again. Peter, just as Jesus prophesied in John 21:18-19, was crucified by Roman executioners because he could deny his master again. According to Eusebius, he thought himself unworthy to be crucified as his Master. He therefore he asked to be crucified “head downward.”
(3) The Apostle Andrew
70 A.D.
Andrew, Peter’s brother who introduced him to Christ, went to join his brother with Christ in eternity six years after Peter’s death. After preaching Christ’s resurrection to the Scythians and Thracians, he to was crucified for this faith. As Hippolytus tells us, he was hung on an olive tree at Patrae, a town in Achaia.
(4) The Apostle Thomas
70 A.D.
Thomas is known as “doubting Thomas” because of his reluctance to believe the other Apostle’s witness of the resurrection. After they told him that Christ was alive, he stated “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe” (John 20:25). After this Christ did appear to him, and Thomas believed unto death. Thomas sealed his testimony as he was thrust through with pine spears, tormented with red hot plates, and burned alive.
(5) The Apostle Phillip
54 A.D.
Phillip, who was corrected by Christ when he asked Christ to show him and the other Apostles the Father, saw the glory of Christ after his resurrection and undoubtedly reflected on Christ’s response to his request: “He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Phillip evangelized in Phrygia where some hostile Jews had him tortured and then crucified.
(6) The Apostle Matthew
60-70 A.D.
Matthew, the tax collector, so desperately wanted the Jews to accept Christ. He wrote the Gospel according to Matthew about ten years before his death. Because of this, one can see, contained within his Gospel, the faith that he spilled his blood for. Matthew surely remembered His resurrected Savior’s words : “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Matt 28:20) when he professed the resurrected Christ unto his death by beheading at Nad-Davar.
(7) The Apostle Nathanael (Bartholomew)
70 A.D.
Nathanael, whose name means “gift of God,” was truly given as a gift to the Church through his martyrdom. Nathanael was the first to profess that Christ was the Son of God early in Christ’s ministry (John 1:49). He later paid for this profession though a hideous death. Unwilling to recant of his proclamation of a risen Christ, history tells us that he was flayed and then crucified[1].
(8) The Apostle James the Lesser
63 A.D.
James was appointed the head of the Jerusalem Church for many years after Christ’s death. In this, he undoubtedly came in contact with many hostile Jews (the same ones who killed Christ and stated “His [Christ’s] blood be on us and our children” (Matt 27:25). In order to make James deny Christ’s resurrection these men positioned him at the top of the Temple for all to see and hear. James, unwilling to deny what he knew to be true, was cast down from the Temple and finally beaten to death with a fuller’s club to the head.
(9) The Apostle Simon the Zealot
74 A.D.
Simon was a Jewish zealot who stove to set his people free from Roman oppression. After he saw with his own eyes that Christ had been resurrected, he became a zealot of the Gospel. Historians tell of the many different places that Simon proclaimed the good news of Christ’s resurrection: Egypt, Cyrene, Africa, Mauritania, Britain, Lybia, and Persia. His rest finally came when he verified his testimony and went to be with Christ, being crucified by a governor in Syria.
(10) The Apostle Judas Thaddeus
72 A.D.
Judus questioned the Lord “Judas said to him (not Iscariot), Lord, how is it that you will show yourself to us, and not unto the world?” After he witnessed Christ’s resurrection, Judus then knew the answer to his question. After preaching the risen Christ to those in Mesopotamia in the mist pagan priests, Judas was beaten to death with sticks sealing his testimony in blood.
(11) The Apostle Matthias
70 A.D.
Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot (the betrayer of Christ who hung himself) as the twelfth Apostle of Christ (Acts 1:26). It is believed by most that Matthias was one of the seventy that Christ sent out during his earthy ministry (Luke 10:1). By this, it qualifies him to be an Apostle. Matthias, of which the least is know about, is said by Eusebius to have preached in Ethiopia. He was later stoned while hanging upon a cross.
(12) The Apostle John
95 A.D.
John is the only one of the twelve Apostles to have died a natural death. Although he did not die a martyrs death, he did live a martyrs life. He was exiled to the Island of Patmos under the Emperor Domitian for his proclamation of a risen Christ. It was there that he wrote the last book in the Bible, Revelation. Some traditions state that he was thrown into boiling oil “before the Latin Gate” where he was not killed but undoubtedly scared for the rest of his life
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The Apostle Paul
69 A.D.
Paul[2] himself a persecutor of the Christian faith (Galatians 1:13), was brought to repentance by an appearance of the risen Christ on his way to Damascus. Ironically Paul was heading for Damascus to arrest those who held to Christ resurrection. Paul was the greatest skeptic there was until he himself saw the truth of the resurrection. He then devoted his life to the proclamation of a living Christ. Writing to the Corinthians, defending his ministry, Paul tells of his sufferings for the name of Christ: “In labors more abundant, in beatings above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths often. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeys often, in storms on the water, in danger of robbers, in danger by mine own countrymen, in danger by the heathen, in danger in the city, in danger in the wilderness, in the sea, among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness (2 Cor 11:23‑27). Finally Paul met his death at the hands of the Roman Emperor Nero when he was beheaded in Rome.
After thought:
I, however, might be justified in objecting to this. You may already have thought of this. You may be stating, “Don’t may people die for something they believe? The 9-11 bombers believed something and died for it. Does this mean that if you die for something, it is true?” Does this justify our objection? This is great question. The answer, simply put, is no. There is a big difference in dying for something that you believe because you have heard it from someone else (often called “hear-say”) and dying for something that you believe because you witnessed the events that establish the belief. The difference is in the substance and verification of what each believed. The suicide bombers and others who died for their faith are dying for something that they believe because the have heard it from someone else. This adds no verification to what they believe. It would be like me dying for my faith in Christ’s resurrection. All that this would prove is that I truly did believe that Christ rose from the grave, but it would not verify in any way that he actually did raise from the grave. Why? Because I did not see it. Now if I died a martyrs death saying that I saw Christ die and raise from the grave with my own eyes, that would be a different story. Why? Because it would not verify a belief handed down from someone else, but a belief that I was a first hand witness of. At this point, you only have three options to explain my belief: 1) to say that I died for a lie KNOWING THAT IT WAS A LIE, 2) I was delusional or crazy, or 3) it was the truth. The suicide bombers sincerely believe their religion, but it carries no inherent verification. All we know is that they were sincere in their belief. The disciples on the other hand died for something that they said they were eye witnesses of. This carries no “hear-say” as they say in law, but first hand testimony. It is a completely different story.
Here are your three options concerning the Apostles:
You would have to conclude that they died for a lie and knew it (ridiculous since they gained NOTHING from it).
They were all delusional and crazy (but this would take more faith than any option since you would have to explain how they all had the same delusion, many being at different places and different times).
It was true.
Your choice . . .
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Top 10 Reasons Why Beer Is Better Than Jesus
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10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer.
9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.
8. Beer has never caused a major war.
7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves.
6. When you have a Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of Beer.
4. You don't have to wait 2000+ years for a second Beer.
3. There are laws saying Beer labels can't lie to you.
2. You can prove you have a Beer.
1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop.
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You would have to conclude that they died for a lie and knew it (ridiculous since they gained NOTHING from it).
They were all delusional and crazy (but this would take more faith than any option since you would have to explain how they all had the same delusion, many being at different places and different times).
It was true.
Your choice . . .
You forgot choice #3 - Those 12 guys never existed.
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Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of Beer.
really? i figure the hangover certain brands give is torture enough...
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"With that, the loop is closed and there is no need for logic, facts, or any other thought process which, if it doesn't help their beliefs, must therefor be tools of the devil. A religious person is someone who can have the answers without the baggage of truth."
geeze chairboy... and you were upset with me for pointing out that someones car looked like a jukebox... glad you're not making fun of anything of import to people.
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You forgot choice #3 - Those 12 guys never existed.
Actually "Being True was 3rd choice.....But...I'll let ya make that #4 "THey Never Exsisted" if ya like MT:rolleyes:
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I'm and Agnostic. I'd like to think there's a 'Higher Power' in the Universe but I can't accept it on faith alone. What I don't understand is people who are not religious always 'poking sticks' at people who are. Religion is a matter of Faith. Do you really believe that someone is going to change there 'Faith' because of YOU? In addition, what's the point? What is so important about people giving up there faith in a God because of what you think? I'll never understand this...
There is some 'downside' to religion but mostly it's good for everyone. It's always been a 'social glue' that keep societies together and provides a Code of Conduct for their members.
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Well some good arguments against religion and god are Charles Darwin and Thomas H. Huxley. They can convince you that god doesnt exist. I personally believe that god does exist.
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No sweat Lazs, Christians expect that many non-believers will reject the gospel. Many of us once rejected it as well. To acknowledge that Christ is the son of God and that he died for our sins calls for repentance and willingness to give up what God calls sin.
For many it may always be easy to reject that "still small voice". However, I challenge anyone to truly listen for that voice before rejecting the gospel for intellectual or any other reason.
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Lazs2, I guess I don't like it when people pee on me and try to tell me its raining, and that's exactly what religious folk do.
"My god finds your behavior sinful, so we will outlaw it. It's for your own good."
"My god says that you must not do that thing you are doing, so my people will come together and harass or kill you to stop you from doing it. It's for your own good."
"God tells me that I must convert everyone, and it doesn't matter if it's a conversion at the church or conversion at the sword. It may kill you, but... it's for your own good."
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The Lord Jesus is my saviour and I am his humble child.
I take comfort in knowing this and I feel pitty for those who don't.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Lazs2, I guess I don't like it when people pee on me and try to tell me its raining, and that's exactly what religious folk do.
"My god finds your behavior sinful, so we will outlaw it. It's for your own good."
"My god says that you must not do that thing you are doing, so my people will come together and harass or kill you to stop you from doing it. It's for your own good."
"God tells me that I must convert everyone, and it doesn't matter if it's a conversion at the church or conversion at the sword. It may kill you, but... it's for your own good."
I find it very hard to believe you have suffered this sort of persecution from Christians, especially in California.
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chair... if you are happy with your life and the way you are... what do you care what they think of you? You are taking it all very personaly and you are lashing out. You are attacking people who aren't attacking you.
I know it is nowhere on the dork scale as say... pointing out someones art or jukebox of a car is crap but... some folks will be offended by your lashing out.
I am also an agnostic on religion... I believe in a higher power tho.
When a Mormon or whatever comes to the door I tell him my neighbor is a jehova and the guy across the street is catholic and the guy i work with is a baptist and the guy at the liquor store is a muslim.. I ask hoim to get together with them and when they get it all straightened out and agreed on who is right then come back to me and we will discuss it.
lazs
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Well My God Loves everyone!
My God created everyone therefore there is no reason for racism.
My God forgives us of our mistakes.
I dont see My God as some of the fire and brimestone crowd do I see him as a loving caring being.
you ask how bad things can happend to good people?
Well we were all given free choice and some people make the wrong choice and choose to harm others.
There Is evil in the world people I for one do believe in the Devil and He is very busy on earth right now.
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Geeze, that's sig material for the logic club.:eek:
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(1) Religion is a way for humans to explain existance.
(2) People create religions because they don't want to accept their ultimate demise (death).
I find biology a much better explanation of things than the bible.
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Although that is true, many different people flock to religion for many different reasons. Some religions do not state that there is an after life where as some do. Some religions stress gods will in every second of mortal life where as others do not. etc... Religion is a very personal choice and does not even have to remain constant but reasons can differ or evolve through time and ones life.
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Yes, but I have not read any of his work.
Scientists have been able to create very primitive cells and amino acids in the lab.
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So this Darwin guy goes to a small island in the pacific and practices his "evolution", writes a book and papers on the subject and now hes the defacto standard for aetheism. Puuleeze mrcoffee, you've been hanging around on his island for too long.
:lol
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Evolution is actually an accepted fact. The mechanisms of it are still theory.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Evolution is actually an accepted fact. The mechanisms of it are still theory.
The Bible is actually an accepted Fact. (to christians);)
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Originally posted by montag
So this Darwin guy goes to a small island in the pacific and practices his "evolution", writes a book and papers on the subject and now hes the defacto standard for aetheism. Puuleeze mrcoffee, you've been hanging around on his island for too long.
:lol
Hey I said I believed in god so god will save me. Stop being so cold man.
:D
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Originally posted by LAWCobra
The Lord Jesus is my saviour and I am his humble child.
I take comfort in knowing this and I feel pitty for those who don't.
Wait a minute... I thought you said you were Jewish?
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Originally posted by storch
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Now to your first myth we will bust. Would you by chance be refering to the "Miller-Urey" Experiment?
Here is a good article on Miller-Urey - Touches on successes and problems.
http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html
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This whole thing some of you have with this there is no God argument is......
Your trying so hard to disprove something you don't believe in , in the first place. If you don't believe there is a God...Why do you all continue to argue that fact?
Seems that Christians say they believe , and you all sort of say something like...."No You Don't really cause we can prove there isn't one."
You all are the first to bash christians if they were to heaven forbid talk about God in front of you , stating that it is being forced on you. Yet you'll state right back that there isn't one. Stale Mate.
I for one don't EVER discuss my beliefs unless asked or it's brought up. And , even at that point it is with caution as to keep the peace. I have no desire to hear your Atheist preachings as you have no desire to hear my christian preachings.
It just seems that you Atheists are trying hard to disprove something you don't believe in and are doing the very same thing as what you don't like done to you.
Just my kicles worth.
;)
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How is this for logic....everything that you see, the thousands of plants and animal species all came from a primordial soup of various chemicals and gases...They don't have a clue as to how this occured, but trust to their infinite wisdom thats how every thing was created. How about this ...A tornado blew through a junk yard and assembled a ready to fly 747...sounds plausible. After all, all the building materials are there, the wire glass steel etc.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Been kinda slow in here today...
Christianity Debunked..... yikes! (http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/old.htm)
Steps slowly away from the water's edge.....
I'm sorry but from a historical satndpoint that site is at best amateur thrid rate crap. Mind you I'm not even discussing faith or anything like that, just historical analysis...
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What about Voodooism. Voodoo is a derivative of the world’s oldest known religions which have been around in Africa since the beginning of human civilization. Some conservative estimates these civilizations and religions to be over 10 000 years old.
http://www.swagga.com/voodoo.htm
http://www.mamiwata.com/
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It really is all about faith. If you don't have faith that there is a God then there isn't one...for you. That's cool. I have faith there is one, for whatever reason. It really doesn't matter what my reason is, it's MY reason.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Wait a minute... I thought you said you were Jewish?
I thought so too. Bizarre.
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This thread wins the religous tolerance award.
At least admit you are bigots.
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I'm a bigot! I'm a bigot!
Feel better now Funked?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
This thread wins the religous tolerance award.
At least admit you are bigots. [/QUOTE
You want me to admit to being a bigot? LOL] :lol
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I will give you two reasons to be a bigot of organized religion.
(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/1978jonestown1.jpg) (http://death.innomi.com/uploads/010912wtc_attack1p.jpg)
god is just the personification of society as a whole.
Btw do you know that jesus was not even considered to be a god like figure untill the emporer of rome converted. It was not fitting for a emporer to follow someone who is not a god.
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Cult and Extremist.........next?:o :(
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Frog... You look like a Frog, Smell like a Frog, Sound like a Frog, Walk like a Frog...
You are full of it.
Try to put up with "Hello Dolly" for a couple of hours if you want to know what life is REALLY like...
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Originally posted by LAWCobra
The Lord Jesus is my saviour and I am his humble child.
I take comfort in knowing this and I feel pitty for those who don't.
You know whats funny is that i think the same of you except the jesus part. I think we are all missing the point and forgetting to just enjoy life, and to stop trying to change peoples minds about what they believe in.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
I think we are all missing the point and forgetting to just enjoy life, and to stop trying to change peoples minds about what they believe in.
And you do that with images like this, right?
(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/010912wtc_attack1p.jpg)
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That is an example when someone trys to force their beliefs onto someone else. And extreme example yes.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
That is an example when someone trys to force their beliefs onto someone else. And extreme example yes.
So arent you trying to force your anti-religion belefs by arguing in such a manner?
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I have the same opinion of Christianity as I do about homosexuality. Believe what you will and do what you want. Just don't try to convert me. It makes me surly.
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for one year, everyday, find a quiet place where you will not be disturbed for an hour
tune the world out by just counting ur breaths to 10 then repeat.
do not think of anything else while doing this. when the mind strays, go back to counting ur breath. make ur mind as calm as a lake right before a summer afternoon rainstorm, flat as glass.
do this for a year and come back and tell me there isn't a divine spark inside you, every one of you - through which we are all connected
you'll find ur mind is like a herd of wild horses and you do not control it, it controls you. with practice you can reverse this, if you try and stick with it. most are too busy running off at the mouth or running around doing whatever the mind tells them that has to be done "right now'. once the monkey mind is calm, you will see/feel life as you were intended to - b4 u got so "busy"
the treasure is there at the bottom of the lake, you just can't see it as the winds of ur mind keep the surface of the lake so churned up it is impossible to see through it
see you in a year
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I have the same opinion of Christianity as I do about homosexuality. Believe what you will and do what you want. Just don't try to convert me. It makes me surly.
One thing great about this country of ours, you have the freedom to live as you wish. You may have to answer for how you lived afterwards, but certainly not to me.
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Originally posted by storch
You either worship the one true God or the father of all lies, irrespective of his current manifestations. allah, buddah, voodoo, athieism, agnosticsim, wiccans, animists or anything other than God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all in one is Satan worship.
Opinions like this are what make it so much simpler to dehumanize others before killing them.
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jesus was gay.
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Originally posted by Furious
jesus was gay.
He was accused of blasphemy, nailed to a cross, and his followers fed to the lions and persecuted for millenia. I don't think a little name calling compares, do you?
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I try to be tolerant and not worry about the other nonsense. ;)
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storch
all paths lead to the Divine
don't blame the path but blame the one who is traveling on it
i find your "satan" reference very extremist islamic/middle eastern aka ignorant/prejudice sounding
:)
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Originally posted by storch
Your choice, don't forget the asbestos underware though:aok
I don't believe that "belief" is a choice at all. ;) I can't simply turn the faith on and believe that JC died for me. I tried.
On the bright side, if/when I do get to hell, all my friends will be there, but I'll be the only one that knows why. :D
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... or "Hello Dolly"?
:D
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Why does your omnipotent god need people to worship it? If your god is "the one true god" and is benevolent, then I wouldn't think that it would care what you called your faith(or lack of) as long as you lived a good life and did no harm.
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The biggest kicker for me was this- Why would God send/allow me to burn in fire for eternity for not worshipping him on earth. I didn't like the idea of myself or my friends burning for eternity, so I kicked that crazy religion (Christianity).
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Yes you are Frog. You should kneel and submit to Grunherz' view-point on everything.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Wait a minute... I thought you said you were Jewish?
There are jews that believe in Christ.
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Well if you think about it and ask yourself, what is religion. What does it serve to mankind or a people who worship it. It is not just one factor of influence in ones life but rather many factors. In history religion was god/creator, rule/law, ethics/morality, science, philosphy, and even history which from it derives power, influence, and military ideas. So through history as the various sciences and other aspects of society develop, it is natural that inconsistancies, ambiguiities, and contradictions arise. So in that regard I wonder how Christianity will evolve itself in the next 200-400 years.
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Originally posted by AKIron
He was accused of blasphemy, nailed to a cross, and his followers fed to the lions and persecuted for millenia. I don't think a little name calling compares, do you?
Acutally the romans only persecuted the christians for about 50 years. Around 300Ad It became the state religion of rome. The last 200 years of the roman empire the pagans were being fed to the lions. The Head of the library at alexandria was skinned alive while her library was burned to the ground by christians. 90 percent of the worlds knowledge went up in those flames. And why did they do it? Reason was banned by the church.
I myself am a work in progress. Only to be completed upon my corporal death when I will shed this corrupt vessel and enter into divine presence.
Hey thats neo-platonic theory! If you want to study the history of how your religion came to pass just read some books on the subject of neo-platonic theory. You can find out how the christian thought was created. How it all stems from plato. Its really interesting on how they came up with the trinity way before jesus ever came about. And did you know the spot jesus took in the trinity was actually held by apollo and at one time the war god mithra.
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I know my last post had some anger in it, so please let me follow up with something a little less flammable.
I understand that many people feel they need religion and find comfort in worship. Religion should be a private thing, after all, what can be more personal then your connection with the very essence of creation?
My problem exists with religion being used to control others. Every time someone tries to ban, outlaw, or regulate something because it goes against their religious convictions, they are essentially bullying all non-believers into line.
When you use your religion to controls others, I feel you've crossed a terrible line.
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My problem exists with religion being used to control others. Every time someone tries to ban, outlaw, or regulate something because it goes against their religious convictions, they are essentially bullying all non-believers into line.
goverment controlls you more than the church down the street,,lol they ban,outlaw and regulate,church has hardly any say in any political things anymore,,church and state are seperate,,heck you cant even bring a bible into a school with out going to jail,,,lol,,i bet money you can take a school book into a church with out going to jail
if a church is pushing there religion on you,,then that church hasnt been reading its bible very much,,i asked a preacher i know once about that,,and showed me in the bible were it talks about preaching apon death ears!!,,pretty much saying,,dont bother tring to force religion on people who dont care to hear,,because its a waste of time and breath!!I will give you two reasons to be a bigot of organized religion.
what about stalin mr anti religion him self,,how many people did he kill? 6 million? or more?,,lol,,cant blame religion because of a few nuts,,going to get nuts on both side of every religion and every organization in the world!! its called power and its corrupts even the best harted of people
im not even a hard core bible thumper,,but is amazing me how many people are attacked for there belief,,instead of just leaving them alone,,no one pushing anything on you,, if your not man anuff to stand up and tell them to leave you alone,,then its your own falt,,its not that hard to tell some one at your door to leave and not come back,,lol i know freinds who have done this too religous fokes,,and they dont come back to there house anymore,,lol,,i got freinds who are athiest<~~i never talk or push my religion on them,,im not tring to save them,,even know there my freinds,,because i know they dont wanna hear about it,,or they would of asked me in the first place,,lol
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Originally posted by storch
You either worship the one true God or the father of all lies, irrespective of his current manifestations. allah, buddah, voodoo, athieism, agnosticsim, wiccans, animists or anything other than God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all in one is Satan worship.
You had better get busy then, trying to convert. You realize that if you exclude all the other religions you are horribly outnumbered. At least I won't be lonely in hell I guess. :rolleyes:
There are more than 2 billion buddists (that's including all forms of the buddist religion), and another billion hindu's, that's 1/2 the world there. Throw in all the Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, Satanists (which by extension is christianity/judism), and all the african and american religions and your in the absolute miniority.
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Originally posted by Munkii
You had better get busy then, trying to convert. You realize that if you exclude all the other religions you are horribly outnumbered. At least I won't be lonely in hell I guess. :rolleyes:
There are more than 2 billion buddists (that's including all forms of the buddist religion), and another billion hindu's, that's 1/2 the world there. Throw in all the Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, Satanists (which by extension is christianity/judism), and all the african and american religions and your in the absolute miniority.
Your figures are quite inaccurate. Therea re nearly 2 billion christians, it is the largest religion by far.
http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html
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I am a Frisbeetarian. I believe that when I die my soul will rise from my body and get stuck on the roof of my house.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Your figures are quite inaccurate. Therea re nearly 2 billion christians, it is the largest religion by far.
http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/relig.html
Do you believe everything you read on the internet, especially from religions that have been proven to lie?
::stirs the pot some more::
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It is clear that christianity is by far the largest religion, no legitimate source disputres that.
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Religion has always been used as a crutch by the weak minded and pervert throughtout the centuries to justify the repression and genocide of others.
You're organic so you live then died and decay.
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Originally posted by VAQ
I am a Frisbeetarian. I believe that when I die my soul will rise from my body and get stuck on the roof of my house.
I can see that happening. I need to think about this...
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According to the 2001 ARIS study:
81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S. 52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant.
24.5% are Roman Catholic.
1.3% are Jewish.
0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.
The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% from.
14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together. 6
The unaffiliated vary from a low of 3% in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. "The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at 22%." 6
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
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Originally posted by Eagler
for one year, everyday, find a quiet place where you will not be disturbed for an hour
tune the world out by just counting ur breaths to 10 then repeat.
do not think of anything else while doing this. when the mind strays, go back to counting ur breath. make ur mind as calm as a lake right before a summer afternoon rainstorm, flat as glass.
do this for a year and come back and tell me there isn't a divine spark inside you, every one of you - through which we are all connected
you'll find ur mind is like a herd of wild horses and you do not control it, it controls you. with practice you can reverse this, if you try and stick with it. most are too busy running off at the mouth or running around doing whatever the mind tells them that has to be done "right now'. once the monkey mind is calm, you will see/feel life as you were intended to - b4 u got so "busy"
the treasure is there at the bottom of the lake, you just can't see it as the winds of ur mind keep the surface of the lake so churned up it is impossible to see through it
see you in a year
Psychedelics get you to the sort of brain change you're on about even faster, Eagler - and there's the rub. Psilocybin, LSD or DMT all work wonders - visions of the divine, conversation with the holy guardian angel, samdhi, darshan, satori - whatever you want to call it - every culture has a name for it (surprise, surprise).
But these religious visions come with a nasty atheistic caveat emptor: Gods not included. That's right, you're going to have to go down to church and get an off the peg god or make your own bespoke tailored divinity to put in to this experience.
It's all very fascinating, divine and mystical, but at the end of the day it's a few chemicals acting on a few brain receptors, and it all wears off after a time. Damn fine fun, but it proves nothing other than very small doses of chemicals can change how your brain works. Same applies with the meditation/yoga you're recommending: distort your brain chemistry through physiological change and you will see the divine.
The mind is great fun to play with, but if you mess about with your mind enough, and ponder what these induced distortions mean, you begin to see the wisdom in and grasp the meaning of the Zen Koan which asks "who is the master who makes the grass green?" (see caveat above for a hint).
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Originally posted by Torque
Religion has always been used as a crutch by the weak minded and pervert throughtout the centuries to justify the repression and genocide of others.
You're organic so you live then died and decay.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Ok, you rolled your eyes, RedTop, but how is that any less likely then you die and are whisked to a magical land of white clouds, pearly gates, and people with wings on their backs?
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Religion has always been used as a crutch by the weak minded and pervert throughtout the centuries to justify the repression and genocide of others.
then what crutch is everyone else using? it isnt just religous people who repress and do genocide,,like i said before,,stalin was anti religous,,repress his people for years,,,how many people did he kill?,,got to realize people in power are going to do bad things if your religous or not,,jim jones was a nut cass,,but i would say stalin was a million times worse!!
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Originally posted by storch
Sure about that? Plato predated God? Let's go to origin. The beginning before time, Now here is where I will digress with the majority of the whole planet. I believe that every word in The Holy Bible is True and written by God through man with guidance of the Holy Spirit. So, in that context and from that world view.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty. (pretty cool concept, yet to be disproven and in fact agreed upon by most geophysicists, and this was grasped and understood then written down by whom?) Darkness was over the deep, and the spirit of God was moving over the waters. Read, God spoke it (or willed it) and BANG it happened. Thus your big bang theory. Let's skip down a ways.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said "Let us create man in our own image, (some translations say "Let us make man in our own image") in our likeness".
First question here. Who was this "us" he is referring to?
Second question. Does God have a body?
Us is the Triune God. God in three persons The Blessed Trinity. God The Father, God The Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If God hasn't a body then we must also be Spiritual Beings in order to be in his likeness.
Let me direct your attention to nature. how do we differ from the other carbon based life forms that share this satellite with us?
Why are most people looking through Hubble for answers when they lie within? You pagans crack me up. The lenghts you go to to justify your folly.
Its hard for me to believe that a book commissioned by the emporer of rome is the "abosolute truth".
I personally dont think man kinda is enlightend enough to understand the abosolute truth of the universe, or even if their is one. I Just live my life , and be a good person in my society. If i am wrong and their is a god that sends me to a 'hell' for the sole reason of not believeing in it; i would prefer to be in a level of existance that does not contain such a spitefull creature.
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Originally posted by RedTop
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
This rolling of the eyes is mainly at the comment of "Weak Minded and Perverted"
I'm not sure what heaven will be like...I have my own Idea. One thing I do know...I'm not weak minded or perverted. Faith is a tough thing to keep at times. And in that is takes a strong mind to keep it.
Seems to me Weak Minded is following everyone elses Non-Faith IMO. Being preverted in todays society of everything goes and nothing is wrong with anything I want. I can do whatever I feel like. Sleep wuith who I want whenm I want. Force my non-religeous beliefes on those dastardly christians. I'll tell them whats good for them.
See its a 2 sided coin. I stand on mine..you stand on yours..and we will just agree to disagree. You want your secilar world and everything in it. The Porn , the fast track , the anything goes world. THats good for you. Alot want to just choose to believe whatever they want. Cool by me. As long as you have noone to account to including even yourself...you can justify anything. All in that world is possible.
In mine there are rules. Certain standards I choose to live by. Things I choose to believe in. Morals I choose to follow. They are in no way any more important than yours. The problem comes in when Christians try to say what is right when the others say they are.
I accept things for what they are. As, you do as well. Thing is..If I think it's wrong , I whisper a prayer. Others in the world pass judgement. I have been judgemental in the past..and prolly will be again. I pray about that as well.
;)
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SNAP! Frogman
Ravs
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So, Redtop. Why do you have a human skull next to the USMC in your avatar?
Ravs
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It's the squad logo...and means nothing else to me other than that.
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Ah ok.
Thanks.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
So, Redtop. Why do you have a human skull next to the USMC in your avatar?
Ravs
Were you thinking it meant something else maybe? I certainly didnt design it...just a squad thing.;)
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Just an interesting motif for someone who considers himself Godfearing.
;)
Take care, I'm off to bed.
Ravs
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Evolution
Have any of you ever wondered what that would make god?
The bible says he created us in is image does it not?
Knowing that we were monkeys not so long ago, does it not make it possible your god is a monkey or a unicellular organism?
I don't understand how people put these together and still believe.
The difference between Darwin and religion is that Darwin found proof of what he said while you have none.
If you were in court as a jury would you believe the guy that as no proof or the guy that as some?
Seems like a real easy question, and yet some believe the guy with no proof. I find that hard to understand.
You can believe whatever you want, we are all in the same boat, some believe they are puppets dancing to the song of fate and some believe they are free.
In the end we will die and rot just the same.
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Does "God's image" necessarily mean that our physical body is the image of God or can that idea be a more ephemeral, spiritual significance?
I think perhaps that religious zealots are not the only ones with narrow views. We all need to open up to the larger possibilities and view the situation from the opposite side.
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Originally posted by LAWCobra
There are jews that believe in Christ.
Yea they are called christians.
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http://www.wsbtv.com/education/2928251/detail.html
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People have tried to debunk christianity
for 2004 years .
They aint done it yet:aok
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Yea they are called christians.
No there called masianic Jews
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"Lions eating christians, plagues, I love this God fellow, he's so deliciously evil!" Stewie-Family Guy
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dead
acid and meditation are not the same path
quiet ur mind,control it to see past it - no brain damage or alterations just reining in the wild horses for a short period of time or attempting to as it is too difficult for most
but what am I telling you? you guys know all the answers right?
LOL
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meditation is boring.
I find that I agree with sandie on this in that I am tolerant of all beliefs so long as they don't affect me. I would not want any church to be so powerful that it controled more than 50% of the vote.
lazs
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Originally posted by LAWCobra
No there called masianic Jews
Messianic. Interesting sect. Do you belong to a Messianic Synagog?
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I said it before but I think it bears repeating. In the USofA folks have the freedom to believe/worship as they want. I wouldn't want it any other way. However, folks shouldn't assume that simply because they have that freedom there is no wrong or right way to believe. In the end, there either is a God/Creator or there isn't. If there is then He will probably hold you accountable to his standards, not your's or Uncle Sam's. Choose wisely.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Belief is not something you can choose. You either believe or you don't. I was brought up with Christian values, and I don't think I would have led my life any differently if I had believed in God. If God condemns me to hell simply for not believing in him, then he's not a God I care to worship in the first place.
I have to disagree. I think you choose everything you believe. A belief unexamined isn't worth having.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Belief is an unconscious process AKIron.
I will admit that we all make assumptions based on the things we believe. While you may not say to yourself "I choose to believe this" I bet it's not unusual for you to hear or read something and think "I don't believe that".
All of us have a predisposition to believe or disbelieve a thing based on the many thousands of choices we have made in our lives in regards to what we believe. When we are very young we believed what our parents told us because we trusted and depended on them. It was nonetheless a choice, if not a completely cognizant one.
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Originally posted by GScholz
I don't know about you AKIron, but I cannot force myself into believing something I don't believe. I can say "I choose to believe", that is a conscious decision, whether I actually believe is a completely different matter.
If I told you I'm the King of Norway, you may respond with "I choose to believe you" (a popular phrase in politics I might add), however you cannot force yourself to actually believe that.
I don't think you understand what I mean when I say "choose to believe". I choose (and I think you do too) to believe things that seem reasonable to me and there is insufficient evidence to contradict that belief. Sometimes (most times) my beliefs are conditional, I'll accept something as fact until it is disproven. Other times I'll believe something so fully that I don't believe it can be disproven. Something like the force we call gravity. I don't pretend to know what that force is, curved space, gravitons, etc... but I always feel it's pull. That doesn't mean that I won't listen to someone try to tell me that gravity doesn't exist but that they better have a pretty strong argument (stonger than 9.8m/s2) before my skepticism will waver.
My belief in God isn't so different from my belief in Gravity. I felt and feel the pull.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well I don't feel the "pull" concerning God. You obviously do. Why are we different? I sure don't know.
The "pull" I mentioned is really nothing more than my need, and I've had plenty. Hard to need God if you have no needs, or at least don't recognize them. I think that's why Jesus said something like it's easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to enter heaven.
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Originally posted by GScholz
So you need God and therefore you believe in him? I suppose that makes sense, but I have needed God on many occasions, but I have never believed because of that. Perhaps when I'm on my deathbed I'll believe in God, but that would really be desperation more than actual belief. Who knows.
I needed him and he met that need, that's why I believe. It was a spiritual need and not material in case you are wondering. Since, I have come to believe that everyone shares that need. Many try to satisfy it with material things including indulgence in all sorts of pleasures. I found that nothing else satisfied it.
I believes God calls us all to himself. No one can find God except that he hear or feel that call. Religion can't do it. In fact I find religion to be completely worthless if there is no God just as I would find life to be completely pointless if there were no God.
Sure, I could enjoy the finer things in life, friendships, family, for a few decades and might feel better knowing that my offspring are happy but then what? Eventually the stars will die or our universe will collapse and all things will cease to exist. I can't help but feel that there must be more. Believe what you will about why I feel this but I believe that it is because there is a part of me that recognizes there is more to us than what we can see or measure.
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Blatantly cut and pasted... :p
It has been suggested that, since we know people exist, it's reasonable to assume that gods exist using a variation of the conceptual fallacy of redefinition (among others). Seems silly, doesn't it? It is. Here's how it goes:
1. Define humans as "creative intelligences."
2. Define gods as "creative intelligences."
3. Claim that, since we know creative intelligences exist, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that one more creative intelligence exists.
4. Restore original definitions, substituting "humans" for "creative intelligences" and "god" for "creative intelligence" in number 3 above.
Well, try this one. You see hoof prints on the beach. A unicorn is as likely an explanation for the source of the prints as a horse:
1. Define horse as "hoofed equine."
2. Define unicorn as "hoofed equine."
3. Claim that, since we know hoofed equines exist, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that one more hoofed equine exists.
4. Restore original definitions, substituting "horses" for "hoofed equines" and "unicorn" for "hoofed equine" in number 3 above.
Occam's razor still states that one should not multiply entities without cause. We know horses exist, so there's no reason to assume that unicorns exist where horses will serve as an explanation.
Moreover, the known existence of horses does not imply the existence of unicorns. Neither does the known existence of hippos imply the existence of invisible pink flying hippos. Neither does the known existence of humans imply the existence of gods. Such an assertion is ludicrous, lacking other evidence.
In point of fact, explanations which use entities known to exist are preferable over explanations using entities which are not known to exist, all other things being equal, according to Occam's razor (do not multiply entities _without reason_). To claim otherwise is to abuse the principle of parsimony without any reason other than blind (and silly) faith.
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"Moreover, the known existence of horses does not imply the existence of unicorns. Neither does the known existence of hippos imply the existence of invisible pink flying hippos. Neither does the known existence of humans imply the existence of gods. Such an assertion is ludicrous, lacking other evidence."
And I thought you were debunking Christianity, instead you've debunked Darwinism. ;)
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This thread and the object website are a futile waste of time.
You cannot use logic to prove faith, and you cannot use faith to prove logic.
The reason you cannot successfully argue religion is that argument is an exercise in logic and faith is by definition not logic.
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Sure, wasting time is what the internet is all about. :)
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You know what I wish? I just all the evangelical christians. muslims, etc etc would just leave us all alone. Stop trying to convert everyone to your wretched beliefs. Stop trying to introduce laws that suit your relligion and stop to make the rest of us live to your morality.
Just leave us alone. Believe what you like and live your life as you choose and let the rest of us get on with our lives as we see fit.
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Do i get three guesses?
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Will saying it 3 times make it come true?
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Originally posted by Otto
I'm and Agnostic. I'd like to think there's a 'Higher Power' in the Universe but I can't accept it on faith alone.
I would suggest that some of the folks here need to read up on their ancient Greek philosophers. I mean the one's who predate Christianity, as well as Plotinus. These men were able, through human reason, to discern that the universe that they knew was created by one being who was all-powerful and all-knowing.
Now, they did get several things wrong, but they were remarkably close to some of what Christians hold to be true.
It is common for people to say that religious people rely on faith and discount reason. There are some people like that, but be careful because there are many religious people of great intellectual power. Faith and reason are not opposed to each other. Faith can empower and direct reason. Reason can provide a foundation for faith.
In my experience I have found nonreligious people to be as dogmatic and close minded as some religious people. But this is understandable because they hold to their atheism with a similar religious faith as that of the religious believer.
So, if you say there is not god, then nothing I say will be able to convince you otherwise.
Also, many of the athiests that I have talked to bring up the religious wars as proof that religion is some great evil and the root of all "evil." But look at Communism. It was offcially athiestic. National Socialism (Nazis) was, for all practicle purposes, athiestic as well. These two systems killed more people in the 20th century than anyone can count.
The disposition to evil is in all of us. Christianity offers us an alternative. The proof that Christianity is real will come with time. It has existed in the world for 2,000 years. If it outlives us, and our children and grandchildren, that is pretty good proof that the promises of its "God" are true.
The final proof comes at death. Are we willing to wait until the day we die to find out if the Christians of 2,000 years have been right?
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Originally posted by pwnorris
The final proof comes at death. Are we willing to wait until the day we die to find out if the Christians of 2,000 years have been right?
I have my beliefs, and trying to scare people into believing a religion is competely idiotic.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
I have my beliefs, and trying to scare people into believing a religion is competely idiotic.
Actually, the fear of death and possible judgment have led some to belief. For others, it has been science or some other activity.
It is not my intention to frieghten anyone into belief. Rather it is to point to the fact that Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. It is only when we die (and our mortality is a fact, not a threat) that we will either meet God or slip into oblivion.
If I am a Christian and I am wrong, and there is no god, then I have lost the opportunity for some fun in this life.
If I am an atheist and I am wrong, and there is a god, what do I do or say?
If I am an atheist and right, then how will history remember me? I certainly won't care at that point, I've slipped off to oblivion, or whatever they call it.
If I am a Christian and right, that there is a god, I still have to answer for my words and actions in this world.
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Whatever makes you feel more comfortable.
Alot of religions have been around for longer then 2000. Dont use age as a reasoning for something to be correct.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Alot of religions have been around for longer then 2000. Dont use age as a reasoning for something to be correct.
However, if Christianity is true, and has been founded by God, I would expect it to remain until the world ends, whether it is tomorrow of four billion years from now.
Your right though. The thought that there is a loving God who sent His Son to die for my sins, and to set me free from those sins, gives me great joy.:D
Peace.
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I would suggest that some of the folks here need to read up on their ancient Greek philosophers. I mean the one's who predate Christianity, as well as Plotinus. These men were able, through human reason, to discern that the universe that they knew was created by one being who was all-powerful and all-knowing.
Load of crap. Monotheism was NOT common for the Ionians or the other Greek philosophers. Where did you hear this drivel?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Monotheism was NOT common for the Ionians or the other Greek philosophers. Where did you hear this drivel?
Monotheism, no. But they were beginning to get some things right. But read Plotinus. He is as close as you can get.
But then, in ancient times Jews and Christians were considered atheists. They only had one god, unlike Rome and Greece who had many.
But thank you for your kindness in pointing out my errors.
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Originally posted by Furball
8. Beer has never caused a major war.
Ever been to Oktoberfest and REALLY needed to use the head?
never caused a major war my a**!
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Originally posted by pwnorris
Monotheism, no. But they were beginning to get some things right. But read Plotinus. He is as close as you can get.
But then, in ancient times Jews and Christians were considered atheists. They only had one god, unlike Rome and Greece who had many.
But thank you for your kindness in pointing out my errors.
You're welcome. "Getting some things right" equates to some kind of solidification of Christianity? LOL... more like proof of the eficacy of the scientific method. I think you may want to leave Aristarchus and his friends out of your logical meanderings.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Load of crap. Monotheism was NOT common for the Ionians or the other Greek philosophers. Where did you hear this drivel?
Plato mainly came up with the idea that there is more then just the corporeal world. The christians are not right i can grauntee that. In fact i dont think any human has any idea what will happen when one dies. So i say enjoy life while you can, and having death be a complete mystrey is quite interesting. But if you feel guilty for what you have done in your life, and need to feel like your 'forgiven' by all means find a religion that will say its okay.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
In fact i dont think any human has any idea what will happen when one dies...
Enter, Faith...
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Plato mainly came up with the idea that there is more then just the corporeal world. The christians are not right i can grauntee that. In fact i dont think any human has any idea what will happen when one dies. So i say enjoy life while you can, and having death be a complete mystrey is quite interesting. But if you feel guilty for what you have done in your life, and need to feel like your 'forgiven' by all means find a religion that will say its okay.
Is that a life back guarantee?
Did you sucker Saurdakur out of $5? If not, why not?
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Originally posted by cpxxx
You know what I wish? I just all the evangelical christians. muslims, etc etc would just leave us all alone. Stop trying to convert everyone to your wretched beliefs. Stop trying to introduce laws that suit your relligion and stop to make the rest of us live to your morality.
Just leave us alone. Believe what you like and live your life as you choose and let the rest of us get on with our lives as we see fit.
Some people of faith that hold to there values feel the same about the non-believers forcing there values on them.
pwnorris hit it very well. If there is no heaven or God then all the things I may miss out on will just be my miss.
If however there is and I have done things the right way and get to heaven...Then all those things that you did that were'nt right willl cost you in the end.
Just believe whatever you wish and don't dictate your ways on those that you don't want dictating to you.
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This ground had just as many stones in it the last time we plowed it.
Stating that I do not care what you believe would be an untruth. I do care. However, I realize that we are all going to believe what we want to believe, arguments to the contrary notwithstanding. It is enough for me to witness the many, unexplainable wonders of nature...and see in them a miracle.
Some students I once knew who went to a small rural school had a better perspective on this subject than many of us on these boards. A new teacher, who happened to be an atheist, felt it her duty to call these students religious beliefs into question. Now, please understand, these kids were not saints. They were normal teenagers in every sense of the word. Coming from the rural South, they were accustomed to having adults admonish them about their drinking and carousing. They would listen politely, and then continue to do the things that they wanted to do.
But as far as they were concerned, this teacher had crossed the line. She wasn't providing guidance; she was "Meddlin.!" By questioning the teaching of their parents and grandparents she had thrown down the gauntlet. They responded to this challenge in magnificent fashion. Several sessions of spirited debate resulted. Finally, nearing a stalemate, the teacher sniffed disdainfully and stated that she, "...didnt care to hear anymore of their unintelligent and backward ideas."
To which one young girl respond..."That's fair Mrs. So-and-So because We dont' care if You Go to Hell either."
Ba-da-boom.
Religions is a personal thing...it's either going to come to you or it isn't...so let's quit beating each other over the head about it.
Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by AKIron
Is that a life back guarantee?
Did you sucker Saurdakur out of $5? If not, why not?
He dosnt want to give me any money.
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Originally posted by Eagler
dead
acid and meditation are not the same path
quiet ur mind,control it to see past it - no brain damage or alterations just reining in the wild horses for a short period of time or attempting to as it is too difficult for most
but what am I telling you? you guys know all the answers right?
LOL
They certainly aren't the same path - meditation is the long way round, psychedelics are the express route (10 items or less). The destination is the same: experience of what the religious would class as "the divine", or Brain / consciousness change. Physiologically, the same process is going on - after all, psychedelics wouldn't work at all if they didn't mimic the brain's natural chemistry. That's the whole point of all that mucking about trying to think of nothing, concentrating on breathing, a fixed image or mantra or not moving at all (depending on your meditation method) - it's a method of altering your brain chemistry to the point where you see things differently. Another faster way is the good old fashionsed 180-220 BPM trance inducing percussion, as favoured by the raver community. So the process is the same and the results are the same, it's merely a question of whether you want to spend a year doing it or 8 hours. Either way to paraphrase Metzner - whether you experience heaven or hell, it is your brain which creates them.
And it's also worth bearing in mind that the "brain damage" caveat can also be applied to eating shellfish or steak, falling over, car exhaust, alcohol and a whole host of other seemingly innocuous everyday activities. Nothing is really safe, in this life.
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There are different forms of meditation. It can be nothing more than a contemplative state where a subject, rather than "nothing", is mulled over. Depending on the object and method of your meditation it can be very stress reducing. To alter your consciousness with psychotropic drugs has hardly the same effect or the same end result. The former can help you to see more clearly and understand a stiutation. The latter may cause you to believe you have seen God but have no real understanding of the chemically induced experience.
Originally posted by -dead-
They certainly aren't the same path - meditation is the long way round, psychedelics are the express route (10 items or less). The destination is the same: experience of what the religious would class as "the divine", or Brain / consciousness change. Physiologically, the same process is going on - after all, psychedelics wouldn't work at all if they didn't mimic the brain's natural chemistry. That's the whole point of all that mucking about trying to think of nothing, concentrating on breathing, a fixed image or mantra or not moving at all (depending on your meditation method) - it's a method of altering your brain chemistry to the point where you see things differently. Another faster way is the good old fashionsed 180-220 BPM trance inducing percussion, as favoured by the raver community. So the process is the same and the results are the same, it's merely a question of whether you want to spend a year doing it or 8 hours. Either way to paraphrase Metzner - whether you experience heaven or hell, it is your brain which creates them.
And it's also worth bearing in mind that the "brain damage" caveat can also be applied to eating shellfish or steak, falling over, car exhaust, alcohol and a whole host of other seemingly innocuous everyday activities. Nothing is really safe, in this life.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
"Lions eating christians, plagues, I love this God fellow, he's so deliciously evil!"
But he's REALLY bad with his money....:)
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Originally posted by AKIron
There are different forms of meditation. It can be nothing more than a contemplative state where a subject, rather than "nothing", is mulled over. Depending on the object and method of your meditation it can be very stress reducing. To alter your consciousness with psychotropic drugs has hardly the same effect or the same end result. The former can help you to see more clearly and understand a stiutation. The latter may cause you to believe you have seen God but have no real understanding of the chemically induced experience.
Sure enough there are different forms of meditation, and some of it can be soothing but the stated object in this case was to experience "a divine spark inside you, every one of you - through which we are all connected".
And both meditation are psychotropics are valid paths to this experience, the only difference is in speed and scale. It's like laughing (ie using endorphins) or taking painkillers (like morphine or codeine) to ease your pain - both are valid methods, but for convenience and speed, most people feel painkillers are the way to go. Of course that's endorphin and endorphin analogues - so I've digressed - we were discussing serotonin and serotonin analogues.
Besides, I still maintain:
meditation=method of inducing chemical change in the brain (change in serotonin levels).
psychedelics=method of inducing chemical change in your brain (change in serotonin levels - using analogues).
Neither experience is anything more or anything less than a product of the action of chemicals on the brain.
Which is not to say it isn't mysterious and mystical: it is. For it is nothing less than a glimpse of the master who makes the grass green in action.Paying attention to the man behind the curtain, if you will. It's at look at the brain fooling itself. Caveat Emptor: "Deities not included."
Interesting book on the whole thing: Why God Won't Go Away (http://www.internetguides.com/cgi-bin/frameit2.cgi?url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345440331/qid=997411491/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/103-9775136-0990245)