Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zippatuh on May 29, 2001, 06:46:00 PM
-
**Posted in Hardware/Software also**
All right gents I’m fed up and have finally talked the better half into letting go of some cash for a new system. I’ve decided based on cost that the best I can do is the 1Ghz system with 128K of RAM.
So the question is, do you go with the PIII 1Ghz or the AMD 1.1Ghz? The AMD system Is a little cheaper, has a higher bus speed, comes with a better hard drive and video card. The Pentium only has the 4MB 815 chipset for graphics. The AMD system has a 32MB NVIDIA RIVA TNT-2 M64 graphics card.
I really don’t know that much about desktop systems. About the only thing I’m used to is “brand recognition”. The Intel chip has been market dominant in the past; does that actually make it better? I’m thinking maybe not.
What do you think? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Zippatuh
-
I just got an AMD Thunderbird 1 gig, and am VERY happy with it. If you get the Intel chip it looks like you'll have to get another graphics card with it.
-
Dollar for dollar, mHz for mHz, the Athlon stomps the crap out of the P3. Intel has made some fairly drastic price cuts to keep its market share, but the Athlon is still faster and cheaper.
Once thing you mentioned was the different machines diffrent configurations. Why "settle" for a machine built for the masses, when you can have one custome built to how YOU want it? You should (IMHO) get your system from a reputable dealer who will make it with the SPECIFIC PARTS you want (krex.com somes to mind but Im sure there are many many others).
Here are my words of wisdom, from a guy whos been building them since the 4mHz days (eeekers)
Get a quality motherboard without going crazy, you dont want to save $30 only to find it less than perfect....but on the same token, there is little reason to pay a huge premium for features you dont need/want, or just to get a mobo thats 5% faster.
I dont care what Dr Ruth says, when it comes to hard drives, bigger is better.
128megs ram is "enough", 90% of all game/apps will run fine, 256megs is plenty, while you will get some benifit, its not that much, but its always nice, any more ram and you might as well just send the money to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
DO NOT waste your money on a Geforce3 yet. There isnt any need for its power, nothing is programed to take advantage of it, and by the time that happens....they'll be a lot cheaper!
If you have any extra money to waste...get a better monitor....its what you look at the whole time your on your computer, and you'll be amazed at the diference between a cheap monitor and a quality one.
[This message has been edited by 2Late4U (edited 05-29-2001).]
-
I have two computers networked together.. My first one is a PII450/256megs ram/Geforce DDR 32 meg.... and My other is PIII800 coppermine/512Megs Ram/Radeon DDR 64 Meg vid... and Even though The latter system blows my PII450 away in many areas.. The PII450 still holds its own as far as crunching out Aces High FPS... about 35 average for PII450 w/Geforce ... I get around 75 and Up with my PIII800 system..
But The real comparison your looking at here is AMD or INTEL.... The next chip im gonna get is an AMD... I would suggest you do the Same... THE Athlon processor has a more efficent bus than the INTEL line up... even with the New Pentium 4 with a Bus speed of 400mhz.. the Athlon.. although slower... is more efficent at pushing out numbers per clock tick. GO with the Athlon, Besides the 32 Meg video compared to a horride 4 meg setup would do you good in the Graphix/3D acceleration area (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) The 4 meg would crawl... you would most certainly be relying on pure Processor clock to give you high frames with 4 meg setup.
Alternatives?... you could go with a cheap custom setup if you know how to shop around.. and Build your own PC... Thats how i got my 800mhz setup... Check out www.pricewatch.com (http://www.pricewatch.com) its a VERY good place to look for new cpu/components at a Very low price.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hehe you cant beat PC133 512 meg ram for 200$$ !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) okay enuff of my blabber.. Good luck in your Cpu endeavors
-
Go for an AMD Athlon 1.2+ Ghz. Build it yourself if possible. Don't fall into the trap of buying some mass market POS.
If you're not comfortable building it yourself, make sure to order it from someplace that allows you to customize it as you see fit.
Try to get a motherboard based on an AMD 760/761 chipset and get PC2100 266MHz DDR 184-pin. CAS 2 memory. Get a absolut minimum of 128Mbs, go for 256+ if you can (Pricewatch (http://www.pricewatch.com/) has 256Mb dimms listed for $64.00).
As far as video goes, I'd go with an nVidia GeForce 2 of some kind.
Make sure that you get the fastest hard drive that you can. Speed will probably matter more to you that size, unless you store lots of files.
Good luck.
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
-
Yup, AMD all the way. And ditch the crappy TNT2 card and get yourself a GeForce 2.
My system:
AMD Thunderbird 900Mhz.
Asus V7700 GeForce 2 GTS 32Mb.
Asus A7V m/b
256 Mb Ram
21" VDU
I get 85 FPS in 12x10, 32bit.......but not when flying thru smoke.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Swoop (edited 05-29-2001).]
-
Originally posted by 2Late4U:
If you have any extra money to waste...get a better monitor....its what you look at the whole time your on your computer, and you'll be amazed at the diference between a cheap monitor and a quality one.
I agree, a good monitor is the one thing you should never need to upgrade. Get what you can afford, but don't sacrifice the quality of the monitor for a "little better" video card or "slightly bigger" hard drive. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
---
------------------
griz
-
Zippatuh, sounds like you are looking at a couple of Dell systems. IMO both of them would be next to worthless for AH due to the poor graphics cards (the 815 is not even a card, its on the MB) and the m64 is a piece of trash ( I know because I was dumb enough to buy one once).
Find a good local builder and tell him what you want to do with the system and price it out.
I would go with the T-Bird and a Gforce2 of some kind. You can get a real fast system based on the via 133 chipset for a good price right now, I dont think the DDR mainboards warrant the premium yet.
Ram is cheap now buy lots (256K)
Shamus
[This message has been edited by Shamus (edited 05-29-2001).]
-
AMD is the way to go. I started my project knowing "NOTHING" about building computers. With help from the folks flying AH, I put together a stable kick prettythang machine. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A7V KT133a MOBO
AMD Thunderbird 1 GHz
ATI Radeon 64MB DDR
Acer CD-ROM 52x
Micron 256MB SDRAM..PC133..CL=2
IBM 75GXP HD 30G
Sound Blaster Live
Antec SX830 Workstation Tower
Supra external modem
Alpha PAL 6035 (II) heat sink
BTW: Frame rates up to 100 fps. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Ya Zippy waht Deez said. AMD all the way. I got the 1 Gig T-bird and it smokes.
-
You should not even be considering a P3 over an Athlon. The Athlon is far more powerful than the p3, and for that matter the p4. Both the systems you listed have HORRIBLE video cards. Neither would give even playable fps in Ah. The 4 mb card wouldn't even start AH.
I'd suggest you have a system built for you, or do it yourself. You can get it cheaper, and get a faster system.
------------------
bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
-
Athlon!!!
And, consider building a system yourself, I did and I love it. I was totally clueless about PC's before I bult my first system (Celeron 300A@450) but I learnt a lot and have never fried anything. It's not that hard these days as the BIOS will usually auto-detect the chip and sort itself out. If you get stuck there'll be loads of people here who will gladly help you!
Cheers.
-
Wow, thanks for the responses thus far!
Ok, yes I’m looking at two different DELL systems and comparing both, price wise, to a Gateway. Here’s the dilemma. I have an extremely crappy HP 533Mhz system. The damn thing locks up on me every chance it gets. Long story short, I have replaced multiple components to include power supply’s and even added an UPS. None of the replacements I did had any affect. None of the statistic gathering I did yielded any specific component as the problem. The wife being on the downward stretch of a Bachelors degree needs a stable and available computer. I have given up on it and have deemed it “lemon”.
I intend to claim it as part of her school debt and apply it to taxes next year. I was also going to reformat, again, my HP and give it to charity also for tax purposes. Gateway however, will take the damn thing from me and give me $250 for it.
What this adds up to is getting the Gateway system for $800, taxes and S/H included.
I have gone to some of the web sites suggested and have not been able to reach the same dollar amount. On average after I got through gathering everything I was still around 950. Not to mention that, on a good day, desktops and me do not get along.
It appears from the responses, definitely get the AMD, ditch the video card, and buy RAM and install it myself.
Zippatuh
-
I think we're all in agreement here. 2Late4U summed it all up nicely. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
AMD!!
no question
I just made the transition, and noo complaints
Salvo
-
OK here we go...
I have a P4 1.5 gig from Gateway.
First stay away from Gateway, after 3 months and lots of trouble. I have finally got the correct RAM for my system, not from Gateway. Funny thing is, they built the system and gave me the wrong RAM and the wrong advice for the type of RAM I needed.
I wish I had gone with the Athlon 1.2 gig, from DEL or Micron.
Just my 2 cents. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Happy Hunting
------------------
I Hate It When That Happens!
-
Go AMD.
Im an ex-Gateway tech.. and yes, Gateway will royally rip you off.. and then bend you over and screw you some more. You didnt get a modem with it did you? If you did, throw it out.. NOW. Its a RED OWL modem, the biggest piece of manure ever assembled.. if you think Winmodems are a curse, this model of winmodem is its avatar. You have to FORMAT to fix the loving thing.
Zippatuh: Best prices in the US ive found: www.micropro.com (http://www.micropro.com)
Build your own system (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Build yer own, and salvage any pieces worth keepin from yer old one.
Mebbe the old stuff can eventually be used for a pc for the dependents...
Salvo
-
Originally posted by SKurj:
Build yer own, and salvage any pieces worth keepin from yer old one.
Mebbe the old stuff can eventually be used for a pc for the dependents...
I took disk drive from older 486 to this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
oh.. and its power supply fan is converted to serve as another case fan as well.
-
Well...I hate to be the odd one in the bunch but I'd recommend Intel. Ran AMD chips for years, never had a stable system till I switched over to Intel. Can't speak to the Athlon/Thunderbird/Duron stuff, it may be good but I'm willing to give up a couple frames and a few bucks for the security of Intel.
Swamp
-
.....<tick tock tick tock> What??..no AMD cheerleader thrashing?
SwampRat
-
Hey, it's your money. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
FWIW, any stability problems I've had have been due to the mainboard almost every time. Choose a good quality mainboard, and either an Intel or an AMD system will run plenty stable. Buy crap components, and you'll get an unstable system.
I've run both and have had no problems with either. The AMD's are faster and cheaper, so it's simple for me. The only time I'd go Intel is if I needed to build an ultra-quiet box with no fan... the PIII's run a bit cooler. Heck, I put together a little Duron server box on the cheap using IDE RAID for a small business in the family. It's running Win2k and has now been up for over 4 months without a reboot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://lephturn.webhop.net) for AH articles and training info!
-
I'm running a Duron overclocked to 1ghz in an Asus A7V and 256mb PC133.
very stable too.
-
Your right about cheap stuff Leph, but I've always used quality parts. Like I said, I can't speak to the later (competitive) AMD stuff. It's just that the headaches all went away when made the switch (was running AMD KIII450 at the time...and I had dang near every AMD chip down from that in 50mgz increments. The heat on the AMD stuff is also a concerne I have...thats just naturally hard on the chip itself, wondering how they will stand up over the LONG haul. (not that it matters anymore but I used to be poor lol...my 486 was old as dirt before I finally upgraded)
SwampRat
-
The earlier AMD stuff was not good at all IMO. Truthfully, it wasn't AMDs fault, it was the chipsets that the motherboards used. (VIA is mainly to blame here.)
All I can say is my AMD boxes are FAR more stable than my Intel rigs. (Unlike Intel, there are newer motherboard drivers available constantly to fix issues on VIA stuff.)
Both companies now make VERY GOOD processors. Intel used to be the leader for sure until AMD came out with the Athlon. Intel's p3 is totally outclassed by the Athlon. Basically AMD took everything that was right about the p6 core (pentium pro, p2, p3, celeron, celeron 2, etc) and fixed most of what was not so great. (Improved branch prediction, lots more cache memory, far superior FPU [this was historically the main weakness of AMD stuff], better bus interface, and better overall layout).
Given a choice between a p3 and Athlon no educated consumer would pick the P3. (The Athlon is faster and cheaper.) Currently the Athlon also holds the edge over the P4.
Something you guys should understand is that the processor itself is not the main reason for system stability (or lack of) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . The chipset, which is the interface between all components in the system, and part of the motherboard is largely to blame. The main reason for Intel's stability was that for the most part it made it's own chipsets. AMD until recently has not done so, they depend on companies like ALI and VIA to make them. This inevitably results in some issues. (It's like trying to build an engine for a car that you didn't design. ) Beyond that there is the truth that in the past most AMD systems were the absolute cheapest computers you could buy. As a result companies putting motherboards together often cut corners that could often result in stability problems. (Less filtering capacitors, cheap voltage regulators, etc.) With the coming of the Athlon this all changed. All of the sudden the Athlon became a mid-high end system. Major manufacturers like Asus and Abit made quality boards and VIA finally turned out a decent chipset in the kx133. This was followed upon by the current generation Thunderbirds and Durons and VIA's kt133 and kt133a chipsets. In the ultimate in irony Intel produced of the worst chipsets in the history of the PC, the i820. (Remember the great MTH recall where Intel was forced to give everybody super expensive Rambus ram because their "memory translator hub" - ie MTH contained major defects that prevented it from working with SDRAM as advertised? )
AMD, failing to learn from past mistakes, still refuses to produce their own chipsets in quantity. (They make a great one called the AMD 760, but it is limited production.) This one, however, may not be a fatal mistake.
Yesterday Nvidia (the company that makes the Geforce graphics chip), announced a motherboard chipset to be known as nForce. This chipset borrows heavily from the $100 Million in research money that Microsoft provided to them to develop the Xbox. I was reading some articles yesterday about this chipset and was nearly blown away! This chipset will easily boost performance on fast Athlon chips by at least 20% across the board! (One really impressive test showed that copying a file that took 200 seconds on a motherboard using the AMD 760 chipset, takes only 90 seconds on the reference board with the nForce! Remember, this chipset isn't even released yet!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) ) I posted a link to some news about it in the hardware and software forum. Intel, in probably the stupidest move in their history, has refused to allow nVidia to adapt the chipset to use p3 and p4s. (This is even though the Xbox uses a p3 733 as its CPU! )
It seems to me that things are only getting better for AMD, and Intel is taking a real beating these days. Intel, though capable of making truely great processors, has made some truely idiotic decisions recently: Ads that do nothing but show the logo, producing a flawed CPU in the P4, recall of the p3 1133, massive layoffs, refusing 3rd parties to produce chipsets for Intel processors, pouring buckets of money into the development of Itanium, deal with Rambus [the most hated computer company in the world today], MTH issue, delays in getting .13 micron process online, "netburst" marketing scam, etc.
I do think that Intel will probably survive this, but they need to pull their head out of their (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) and wake up. P4's sales figures are proving that consumers are more educated than Intel thinks and that logo identification alone doesn't sell processors that are fundamentally flawed. If their stock prices continue to fall they will come around sooner or later...
------------------
bloom25
-MAW-
(Formerly of the)
THUNDERBIRDS
-
I'm thinking of upgrading to an AMD 760MP system in Nov. or Dec. this year.
Mmmmm, two 1.5, 1.6 or 1.7 Ghz AthlonMPs running WindowsXP Professional.
Bloom25,
AMD plans to produce the 760MP in quantity. They know that the only way into the server market is to produce their own chipset. The AMD 760MP is by far the most intesively tested chipset in AMD history.
For everyone's edification:
AnandTech AMD 760MP Review (http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1483)
Tom's Hardware AMD 760MP Review (http://www4.tomshardware.com/mainboard/01q2/010605/index.html)
AnandTech nVidia nForce Athlon Chipset Preview (http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1484)
Tom's Hardware nVidia nForce Athlon Chipset Review (http://www4.tomshardware.com/mainboard/01q2/0106041/index.html)
------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak