Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on March 21, 2004, 10:22:51 PM
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they dont mess around:
Israel Kills Hamas' Sheikh Ahmed Yassin -Witnesses (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040322/ts_nm/mideast_yassin_attack_dc)
(http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20040322/amdf503249.jpg)
bye-bye assin Yassin
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When you think about it, it's sort of scary to be a terrorist in Israel.
Not only did they knew where he was going to be, but they knew when, how, what he looked like, and how to avoid killing other people. OH, and probably from a mile away.
If only our intelligence were this good...
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Good riddance.
Of course it'll be about 24 hours before the first suicide bomb goes off, thus prompting the whole of the 'civilized' world to sympathize with the Palistinians for having to resort to such desperate tactics.
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:rofl :aok
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Lets all pray for that isreali kid eating his breakfast this morning who only has a few days to live. Or that secretary who will never visit her mother again because she will ride the bus to work on Thursday. God bless.
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Dumb, they probably just could've captured the MF. Would have caused a lot less escalation.
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Originally posted by Thud
Dumb, they probably just could've captured the MF. Would have caused a lot less escalation.
"Yassin was sentenced by Israel in 1989 to a life term for founding Hamas and inciting Palestinians to attack Israelis.
But Israel released him in 1997 as a goodwill gesture to Jordan's King Hussein after a failed Israeli attempt to assassinate Hamas leader Khaled Mashal in Jordan.
"All of Palestine will turn into a volcano that will burn up the enemies," Sheikh Ismael Hamiyah told reporters outside the morgue after viewing Yassin's body. "Our feelings...are full of anger and desire for revenge."
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Originally posted by Silat
"Yassin was sentenced by Israel in 1989 to a life term for founding Hamas and inciting Palestinians to attack Israelis.
But Israel released him in 1997 as a goodwill gesture to Jordan's King Hussein after a failed Israeli attempt to assassinate Hamas leader Khaled Mashal in Jordan.
"All of Palestine will turn into a volcano that will burn up the enemies," Sheikh Ismael Hamiyah told reporters outside the morgue after viewing Yassin's body. "Our feelings...are full of anger and desire for revenge."
Your point...?
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"The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American Administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime," Hamas said in a statement faxed to The Associated Press. "All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime," the statement said.
The threat against the United States would represent a change of tactics for the militant group, which has always said its fight was with Israel and not with the United States.
great.
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LOL the Hamas declaration of war on the US is about as smart as Germanys declaration of war on the US after Pearl Harbor...can anyone say "suicide"...
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Elevator..Goooin' down.
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Dumb, they probably just could've captured the MF. Would have caused a lot less escalation.
ahhh yes, let's capture him. Let's negotiate w/ the terrorists. If Israel is nice to Hamss they won't attack. Let's try to get a cease fire. Hamas, Palestinians would never violate that!
:aok
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Originally posted by Steve
ahhh yes, let's capture him. Let's negotiate w/ the terrorists. If Israel is nice to Hamss they won't attack. Let's try to get a cease fire. Hamas, Palestinians would never violate that!
:aok
Why does capturing him equal negotiations or a cease fire? Idiotic assumptions...
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I doubt killing him will improve anything other then increasing the levels of violence.
...-Gixer
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Well I don't feel sorry for the bstard but I'm afraid that assasinating any political leader may have some unwanted effects like hundreds of deads in both sides of the border and even in some other continents.
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The man was as old as mahoma anyway... they just turned a grumpy ol' bastard into a martyr.
Daniel
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Stupid move by Israel, violence has not worked in the last 15 years, I see no reason why it should start working now.
The only result will be an increase in violence.
Which is the opposite of what they want, I think. :confused:
Israel as been stuck in a viscious circle of violence for many years because both sides refuse to compromise.
This war is not just going on because of the palestinians.
Israel as been killing Palestinians for years and yet the terrorism as not gone down. Weird is it not?
Killing someone's father and putting another family in the gutter.
People who have nothing are easier to convince then those who have hope for the future.
People like that become suicide bombers.
I wish more people tried to see things from their view instead of demonizing them like idiots.
If you trully want to stop the violence in Israel then give the Palestinians hope.
HOPE IS A POWERFULL THING THEY SAY.
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when terrorists are called "spiritual" and "political" leaders
Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don't - so they did
If OBL came out of the hills proclaiming to be a "spiritual" and "political" leader, you think the US would not kill him at 1st chance? what is the difference, and please don't bring the murderers wheel chair into it as AP is doing .. I wonder why they allowed him to breathe as long as they did ..
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Stupid move by Israel, violence has not worked in the last 15 years, I see no reason why it should start working now.
Really? What world are you living in?
Punishing terrorists and **THE FAMILIES OF TERRORISTS** has been working. There has been a significant decrease in terrorist attacks from the 90's.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don't - so they did
I completly disagree here.
If they had sent troops to arrest him and had judged him I would be 100% behind Israel.
But Israel continues to do things through violence.
Their methods are just as brutal as their ennemies'.
Why should I support a contry that uses such means?
Remember the bombing of Jenine?
Was anyone accussed of war crimes for it?
Nope, why is it a war crime for Serbs to kill people in Kosovo and not when Israel murders Palestinians civillians?
If you were a Palestinians and saw that on TV do you think you would consider that fair?
NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!
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I think there will be alot more voilence and killing in israel now..
Hope im proven wrong but this was a bad thing imo.
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Punishing terrorists and **THE FAMILIES OF TERRORISTS** has been working. There has been a significant decrease in terrorist attacks from the 90's.
I'd re-check your sources if I was you. The conflict has escalated over the last few years.
Year; # of Israelis killed in terror attacks
1978: 12
1979: 14
1980: 10
1981: 5
1982: 2
1983: 6
1984: 7
1985: 14
1986: 7
1987: 5
1988: 14
1989: 32
1990: 23
1991: 26
1992: 39
2000: 41
2001: 201
2002: 384
2003: 174
Yes, there really has been a decrease in the 1990s...
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This guy was outspoken in the support of blowing up Israeli school children at bus stops. I have about as much compassion for this guy as some of the posters in this thread that think taking out a terrorist is a bad thing.
Yassin's error was not surrounding himself with many women and children as he normally did in public to protect himself. He was vulnerable with only a handful of body guards and Israel acted upon the opportunity to send a clear message.
One thing consistent about terrorists, they'll always hide behind women and children, whether it be villagers in the remote mountains of Pakistan, or the city streets of the Gaza Strip.
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Killing a terrorist is not a bad thing. Killing women and children along the way is the issue.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Killing a terrorist is not a bad thing. Killing women and children along the way is the issue.
"One thing consistent about terrorists, they'll always hide behind women and children, whether it be villagers in the remote mountains of Pakistan, or the city streets of the Gaza Strip.
"
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"Killing a terrorist is not a bad thing. Killing women and children along the way is the issue."
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Originally posted by AVRO1
If you trully want to stop the violence in Israel then give the Palestinians hope.
HOPE IS A POWERFULL THING THEY SAY.
Hamas will likely settle for nothing less than the complete removal or elimination of Israel from "Palestine", an area they like to define as that between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river. I think that is a hope that Israel would prefer NOT to encourage.
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If Bin Laden killed Bush, would USA stop the hunt for Al Quaida? or would USA continue its hunt even harder than now?
And Bush is not even a spritual leader so imagine what the killing of Yassin will do for Israel.
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No doubt he's a martyr Nilsen, but as mentioned, the violence was going on last week (Suicide bombers), and the violence will continue. There is no negotiation with Radical Islamic Fundamentalists. You're welcome to try though if you think you can do a better job than many heads of states in the past as well as the UN.
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I believe that every country ought to have a copy of "the big book of terrorists" ... the book would be filled with pictures and the pictures would get a big red X through em as these guys were eliminated. The book would also have pictures of the people who funded the terrorists.... As their pictures were crossed out it would become far less attractive for little rich boys to play bad boy.
lazs
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I read in one of our papers today that Palestinians that does not support Hamas are now on the street protesting against Israel because of this. Im afraid that when you kill of folks at the top it grows even more at the bottom of the chain and its there you recruit new suicide bombers and other activists.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
If Bin Laden killed Bush, would USA stop the hunt for Al Quaida? or would USA continue its hunt even harder than now?
And Bush is not even a spritual leader so imagine what the killing of Yassin will do for Israel.
Yes, I think Israel know exactly what killing that murdering bastard will do for its country.
Israel has the balls to take the gloves off and go to the source - I hope they continue to put the red X's in their book of bad guys as trying to deal with these nutcases any other way is a waste of time
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
I read in one of our papers today that Palestinians that does not support Hamas are now on the street protesting against Israel because of this. Im afraid that when you kill of folks at the top it grows even more at the bottom of the chain and its there you recruit new suicide bombers and other activists.
So where were there protests against Yassin when children were being blown up at bus stops? Peculiar special interests, don't you agree?
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There were prolly protests on the Israeli side Rip if thats what you mean, but i doubt there were any on the Palistinian side.
But that is not the issue here. When you kill spiritual leaders you do not put an end to their organisation, you give them one more reason shoot back and support for them grows. Do you agree with that or do you think Hamas in this case will crumble and die if you take out their leaders?
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duplicate
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Do you agree with that or do you think Hamas in this case will crumble and die if you take out their leaders?
Nope, but they violence was still going on last week when he was alive.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/02/22/jerusalem.blast/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/14/mideast/
Dead or alive, the violence would have continued.
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Palestinia is safe heaven for criminals. It does not have government or police, just special people and elite who surely know how to put all the international support money in to their own pockets. Israelis should use more force to overcome this criminal issue on their borders.
They should give civilians a chance to retreat to their beloved neighbour arabic countries and after month nuke/carpet bomb the Palestinia to hell without mercy. After that the arabic community could continue their support, but the terrorist hatching would then happen inside their own borders. It would be whole another game, since Israelis would have solid targets to act upon. Right now Arabic community can wage proxy war and pump their effort against Israeli existance from Palestinia.
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d p
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Israelis knew he was going to pray in that Mosque. It would have been just as easy for them to arrest him rather than assassinate him. Then put him on trial and execute/imprison him. That's what a civilized state does ... not go around killing people without a trial.
So the violence would have stopped had they done this? ;)
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Israelis knew he was going to pray in that Mosque. It would have been just as easy for them to arrest him rather than assassinate him. Then put him on trial and execute/imprison him. That's what a civilized state does ... not go around killing people without a trial.
Any state at war usually loses a lot of it's civility.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Terrorists are just murderers with a political agenda, nothing more. Calling this a "war on terror" is not only wrong in a legal sense, but also elevate the terrorists' status above the murderous criminals that they are.
Easy to say when it's not your loved ones that risk being blown to bits every time they ride a bus or visit a restaurant.
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Originally posted by AVRO1
I completly disagree here.
If they had sent troops to arrest him and had judged him I would be 100% behind Israel.
Read the whole post before you stick your foot in your mouth. He was sentenced 1989 to a life term, but was released in a good will gesture in 97. So, by your own admission you should be 100% behind Israel.
Originally posted by AVRO1
But Israel continues to do things through violence.
Their methods are just as brutal as their ennemies'.
Why should I support a contry that uses such means?
As opposed to the wonderous terrorists of Hammas, PLO, etc. sending flowers to Israeli's??? What friggin source do you get your news from? Al Jazeera? The terroists bomb Israeli civilians with regularity, and further the escalation. Israel can not in your eyes stop this? Well guess what, they do, and they have and will continue to defend their people. THe Palestinian's demands will not stop at the restoration of Palestine, it will stop after Israel is eliminated. Maybe that will make you happy?
Originally posted by AVRO1
Remember the bombing of Jenine?
Was anyone accussed of war crimes for it?
Remember that Jenine has supported terrorists for ages, so that makes it a legit target.
Originally posted by AVRO1
Nope, why is it a war crime for Serbs to kill people in Kosovo and not when Israel murders Palestinians civillians?
If you were a Palestinians and saw that on TV do you think you would consider that fair?
NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!
In case you have not realised the Palestinians have NEVER negotiated in good faith with the Israelis, they just negotiate to catch a breather than launch attacks in earnst as soon as they recoup. Their population supports them, and yet you say they are right? Let me guess, with your flawed logic, you must be a member of Liberte du Quebec. Figures. The Palestinians do not deserve peace, because they will not respect it. Until they agree to lay down their arms and are willing to accept law and order, I say keep killing them.
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Sometimes I forget how bleeding heart this BBS is.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Killing a terrorist is not a bad thing. Killing women and children along the way is the issue.
If the Palestinians would only LEARN to stop harboring terrorists, this bs would end...
But yet they can not learn because idiots continue to feel "sorry" for the murbering bastards. Hats off to Israel, I hope they lay waste to the entire lot of the PLO supporting bastages... My only question is when are they gonna pop Arrafat???
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(http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20040322/amdf503249.jpg)
(http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Christopher%20Lee.jpg)
Coincidence? I think not.
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Apart from the height (physical and moral) :)
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Punishing terrorists and **THE FAMILIES OF TERRORISTS** has been working.
If one practices the second act he is no better than the initial terrorists and should be dealt with accordingly...
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Israelis knew he was going to pray in that Mosque. It would have been just as easy for them to arrest him rather than assassinate him. Then put him on trial and execute/imprison him. That's what a civilized state does ... not go around killing people without a trial.
they could have just as easily taken down the entire mosque but they did not ...
I see it more as an extermination of an animal than a murder of a human being.
condoning, promoting and then praising the slaughter of countless Israeli men, women and children - yassin the assassin gave up his right to breathe
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Originally posted by GScholz
And in that very statement ... so did you just now.
as in a terrorists NOW would kill me? I think being an American, I was already on the list...
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Eagler
I think he meant more along the lines your are thinking just like a terrorsts or some ****.
Either way it was a pretty stupid thing to say on his part...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Ah ... genocide. Sure, that's always a good solution.
Maybe if they bleached their skin and start talking with Irish accents.......
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Originally posted by GScholz
The Israelis knew he was going to pray in that Mosque. It would have been just as easy for them to arrest him rather than assassinate him. Then put him on trial and execute/imprison him. That's what a civilized state does ... not go around killing people without a trial.
How many IDF troops would it have taken for them to go into the heart of Gaza and arrest him? Do you think his Hamas "soilders" would have stood back and let this happen? Or do you think it would have devolved into a seige and/or gunbattle? Do you think the IDF would have said, "Hey, there are women and kids in the houses on the street so let's not fire at the houses. Let's not call in airstrikes. Even if Hamas snipers are shooting at us from the windows."
Have you seen pictures of this guy? There are hundreds of armed supporters surrounding him at all times. This isn't a case of walk up and show them your badge and arrest him. It's quite possible that even the IDF wouldn't have been able to do a "snatch" on him.
Sorry, but this guy doesn't get arrested. Not today. Maybe a few years ago, but not now.
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Sure, it really sucks that Isreal has to do this, but I don't think there is a choice. You can't call a ceasefire with a terrorist group. It will just legitimize them and their methods.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a chance for peace until the Palestines stop supporting Hamas with ppl. Hamas has been responsible for the breakdown of a lot of peace talks because the talks haven't gone how THEY wanted them too. They have thier own agenda and that agenda is not compatible with what Isreal is willing to do. So what's the choice? They have gone on record saying that they will kill innocents until they get what they want. You just can't NOT go after them and hope they won't get pissed.
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Why does capturing him equal negotiations or a cease fire? Idiotic assumptions
Thud, Why don't you go bugger yourself, as long as we're tossing insults. There is simply NO way to deal w/ the Palestinians. Offered 90% of all their demands at the peace tables, they declined. The "Palestinians" (there has NEVER been a Country of Palestine) will NEVER be happy, short of killing every Jew on the continent. Get it into YOUR idiotic head, there is simply NO way to deal w/ these people other than killing them.
There will NEVER be peace until the "Palestinians" are crushed.
It's not pretty, but there will be no peace until one side is the victor.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
As opposed to the wonderous terrorists of Hammas, PLO, etc. sending flowers to Israeli's??? What friggin source do you get your news from? Al Jazeera? The terroists bomb Israeli civilians with regularity, and further the escalation. Israel can not in your eyes stop this? Well guess what, they do, and they have and will continue to defend their people. THe Palestinian's demands will not stop at the restoration of Palestine, it will stop after Israel is eliminated. Maybe that will make you happy?
I never said they were better now did I?
All I said was that Israel was targeting civillians, making them not much better then their opponnents.
If you go around telling people how evil those Palestinians that kill civillians are and then go on to bomb Jenine doing the same, you don't have any right to claim the morale high ground.
I have never wished for the elimination of Israel.
They have as much right to exist as a Palestinian state does.
In case you have not realised the Palestinians have NEVER negotiated in good faith with the Israelis, they just negotiate to catch a breather than launch attacks in earnst as soon as they recoup. Their population supports them, and yet you say they are right? Let me guess, with your flawed logic, you must be a member of Liberte du Quebec. Figures. The Palestinians do not deserve peace, because they will not respect it. Until they agree to lay down their arms and are willing to accept law and order, I say keep killing them.
And the Israelis have?
I once saw on TV, during negotiations for peace, Israel destroying Arabs apartments to build Jewish ones in Jerusalem.
Yeah!! You are right they do want peace badly. :rolleyes:
Maybe they support them because there are no other leaders.
That is a major problem for the Palestinians, they are too divided to follow one leader and they have very few of them that are worth having.
Liberte du Quebec? What is this?
I believe Yassine deserved to die for is crimes.
But killing him like they did will clearly increase violence.
Because many respected him for some reason I don't understand.
As for flawed logic, If a gang kills a member of another gang, does the violence ends?
Remember that Jenine has supported terrorists for ages, so that makes it a legit target.
Jenine was not a legit target because it was filled with civillians, many of whom had nothing to do with the attacks.
If the US gov bombed a ghetto because many criminals came from it, would you support it?
And if Israel is as white as you seem to believe then why did they refuse to have the UN verify the claims that they had shot prisonners on the spot?
They said they had nothing to hide and yet they hid something.
Read the whole post before you stick your foot in your mouth. He was sentenced 1989 to a life term, but was released in a good will gesture in 97. So, by your own admission you should be 100% behind Israel.
If your gov used apaches to hunt down criminals in ghettos and killed many innocents in the process, would you agree with it?
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There will not be peace until they have agreed on who can live where and what belongs to who down there. When that is setteled folks would just have to respect eachothers religions.
Should not take to long, or?
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
There will not be peace until they have agreed on who can live where and what belongs to who down there. When that is setteled folks would just have to respect eachothers religions.
Should not take to long, or?
Ahh, you forgot one minor element in the Hamas's version of the Koran, when every living Jew is dead and buried, but don't let that fact get in the way of your little fantasy about "a perfect world". :rolleyes:
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Well damn, chalk up another dead bad guy and another victory for the ole Hellfire missiles.
Hamas declaring war on us? Oh please, sometimes you have to wonder what a few thermonuclear detonations would due for that region of the world.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Well damn, chalk up another dead bad guy and another victory for the ole Hellfire missiles.
Hamas declaring war on us? Oh please, sometimes you have to wonder what a few thermonuclear detonations would due for that region of the world.
Deplete our oil supply?;)
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THe Palestinian's demands will not stop at the restoration of Palestine
This is the crux of the problem because THERE NEVER WAS A PALESTINE.
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You failed to see my point i guess Rip..
Does not matter.
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There will not be peace until they have agreed on who can live where and what belongs to who down there. When that is setteled folks would just have to respect eachothers religions.
More leftist fantasy BS. The "Palestinians" use the excuse of land disputes to kill Jews. There will be no peace until either all the jews are dead there or all the "Palestinians" are.
edit: Nils, I get your point but the Arabs are incapable of making peace without defeat. The Palestinians are incapable of peace while a Jew still lives on the continent.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
You failed to see my point i guess Rip..
Does not matter.
You failed to see mine. Hamas, and terrorists "Jihad" groups like it will only settle for the complete annililation of Israel and all its people. Its not just about land, its about religion and culture.
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:rofl LOL!!! I knew this would piss off some of our local terrorist supporters.
a big WTFG!!!!! Isreal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Udie
:rofl LOL!!! I knew this would piss off some of our local terrorist supporters.
a big WTFG!!!!! Isreal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh it will get better (worse)...soon as another major terrorist attack happens they'll be the first to say we(they) deserved it.:rolleyes: :mad:
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Originally posted by AVRO1
I never said they were better now did I?
All I said was that Israel was using the same tactics, making them no better then their opponnents.
I disagree. When's the last time you heard of Isreal blowing up a bus filled with women and children? Or heard of the Isreal government using innocents as human shields?
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Or when was the last time you heard a isreali Suicide bomber?
Same tactics my ass.
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At the very least, the Israelis make sure they have actual enemy militants in their crosshairs when they pull the trigger. Sometimes bystanders get hit, sometimes they don't.
The Palestinians never bother with crosshairs. They pick a nice, crowded area, send in a brain-washed idiot strapped with explosives and wait for the headlines to bring them worldwide pity for having to resort to teaching their children the holiness of growing up to be a suicide bomber.
They preach hatred in the holiest of their texts and then expect tolerance from those they'd just as soon see wiped from the Earth?
F the lot of them.
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Im not sure about that Rip. If my utopian world would come true, Hamas would loose most of their support if they continued with the goal of complete annililation.
Does not matter tho, there is to much hate atm to solve anything.
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I agree Pork!!
The Isreali's have done some bad ****, but in comparison, they are mild, and they are not sending their kids to blow themselves up.
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Originally posted by AVRO1
I never said they were better now did I?
All I said was that Israel was using the same tactics, making them no better then their opponnents..... .....If your gov used apaches to hunt down criminals in ghettos and killed many innocents in the process, would you agree with it?
That is your stupidest statement yet today....
Same tactics my arse. The Israeli's targeted a legitemate terrorist leader. The *****ass terrorists use innocent civilians as their targets. You know, women, children, that ilk. But maybe that is ok in your utopian society. Maybe Israel should just say fine, you killed our civilians, ON PURPOSE, but their will be no retribution.... that is a bull**** idea, and will only cause terroism to work for terrorists. The only thing these stunninghunks understand is severe violence.
Ohh, and don't forget that this bull***** was not started by Israel. Until those bastards learn that just because some imbecile wrote a version of the Koran that says "kill all jews" that it is not acceptable behavior, nor will it be tolerated. And, if they wish to continue along that course of action, I support the wholesale elimination of the Palestinians.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
At the very least, the Israelis make sure they have actual enemy militants in their crosshairs when they pull the trigger. Sometimes bystanders get hit, sometimes they don't.
The Palestinians never bother with crosshairs. They pick a nice, crowded area, send in a brain-washed idiot strapped with explosives and wait for the headlines to bring them worldwide pity for having to resort to teaching their children the holiness of growing up to be a suicide bomber.
They preach hatred in the holiest of their texts and then expect tolerance from those they'd just as soon see wiped from the Earth?
F the lot of them.
Well said Pork
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THIS:
(http://www.muensterplus.de/yassin.jpg)
IS NOT THE SAME AS,
THIS:
(http://www.chsweb.org/chs/images/b2sKlein/DCP_0300.jpg)
OK?
Now whatver your ideas about the Pal/Jew conflict are, please lets keep that fact absolutely clear.
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The US did not beat Japan in WW2 by pulling punches. Once you are fighting someone who has shown they are out do destroy you the only smart thing to do is hit them as hard as you are able over and over.
There will be no end to the terrorism if Israel does not do this. Every year as they are able to slip through attack will occur. The only time it will stop is when the people in Gaza and the West Bank decide that violence only begats more violence.
Isreal knows they will retaliate if they are able but guess what? They would do so even without this attack as a reason.
And having hate filled heros like the founder of Hamas around to preach to everyone to kill serves no purpose at all.
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GScholz
Using Palistinians as human shields by the IDF, Interesting.. Did any die?
Any terror links that are not about stuff from 50 or so years ago?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Any terror links that are not about stuff from 50 or so years ago?
His point is they terrorized til they got their own state, now that has come full circle.
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The policies of terror and intefada followed by the Palestinian leadership has not brought Palestine closer to being. Instead they bring death and poverty to their people.
There was another state that was brought into being which did not use terror, but rather appealing to the goodwill of their rulers. Had the palestinian leadership chosen this route, Palestine would have been celebrating it 25th anniversary. In the era of instant journalism the tactics of Ghandi would be highly effective.
(http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/dvo/WOWCalendar/Images/GhandiManOfTheYear.jpg)
Instead they will blow up a bus or a pizza parlor and achieve nothing.
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The US should have hired Israel for the Saddam Job...
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Originally posted by Udie
:rofl LOL!!! I knew this would piss off some of our local terrorist supporters.
a big WTFG!!!!! Isreal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
since you consider killing people on the streets to be WTFG, we could probably agree that terrorism is efective and good way to go.
ehh ?
seriously it seems that time prove how effective terrorism is. Look, nobody of local folk have even clue, whats organzation structure of Al-quadai, so they just keep listening BS about Osama Salama. If you know whats structure does Al quiada have, you would probably wondering why is US gov after osama salama and why he is so important for them.
That structure has been described by Osama before 9/11 and published for example on BBC.
But i agree that it doesnt fit to scenario, where zillion of $$ should be spend w/o questions.
It will be interesting to watch reactions from iraq.
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Originally posted by Maniac
The US should have hired Israel for the Saddam Job...
actualy they have so Big Ego, that they are about to use czech rep. to talk with North Korea, because they are too good to have direct speach with them..
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Originally posted by GScholz
Human shields?
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-06.htm
The Israelis don't need terrorists anymore, they've got a state and an army. However it was not always so. The Palestinians have learned well from the Israeli example. The Israelis got their state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_terrorism
hmmm... interesting. thanks for posting it
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There is simply NO way to deal w/ the Palestinians. Offered 90% of all their demands at the peace tables, they declined.
And what a deal it was. Limited water rights and a stranglehold on travel between the contained portions of a highly controlled (geographically) “state.” Here’s an excellent presentation (by an Israeli peace organization) that indicates exactly what the “10 percent” meant: http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html
"Palestinians" (there has NEVER been a Country of Palestine)
Nor had there been a "Jewish" state or an Israel on the same soil since biblical times. In fact, when Zionism was reborn in Europe in the late 1800s, Argentina was seen as a potential home for the new state because, as agents reported back to Theodor Herzl "... the bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man (local Arabs)." But, the emotional appeal was too strong and the Arab problem was just something to worry about later. According to Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, that has been the problem all along. In a nutshell: “Worry about the Arabs later… learn to live with us under our terms or else…”
In 1920, about the time of the Balfour Declaration, 90 percent of the population in modern Israel were either Muslim or Christian Arabs. An active policy of emigration among European Jews following the Balfour Declaration, particularly with the Nazi pressures of the 1930s through the immediate post war refugee period, changed all that, in a very artificial manner and created similar problems to other artificially created nations such as Yugoslavia.
There will NEVER be peace until the "Palestinians" are crushed.
It's not pretty, but there will be no peace until one side is the victor… will NEVER be happy, short of killing every Jew on the continent. Get it into YOUR idiotic head, there is simply NO way to deal w/ these people other than killing them.
So, you support ethnic cleansing Steve? I guess Israel should just sarin the bunch of them. Given the fact they are have been concentrated in refugee camps since 1967 it shouldn’t be too hard. There are some Israeli’s who disagree though, and offer a fair proposal:
Gush Shalom's Political positions:
* The Green Line (the borders before the 1967 war) will be a border of peace between two free and sovereign states: Israel and Palestine.
* All Israeli settlers in the currently occupied territories will return to Israel.
* Jerusalem will be an open city, and will serve as capital to both states: East Jerusalem will be the capital of Palestine; West Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel.
Both parties can reach a just and agreed upon solution for the tragedy of Palestinian refugees, based on these guidelines:
* Israel will acknowledge its share of responsibility for this tragedy, and will accept, in principle, the right of return.
* The refugees will be offered several possible venues of rehabilitation and compensation.
* One of these venues will allow a limited number of refugees the right to return to the state of Israel, based on a formula that will maintain the Jewish majority in the state of Israel.
These positions do not offer absolute justice, but rather a formula that can be accepted by the majority of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples.
Most Israelis (according to at least three, fairly neutral polls) would support a pullback from the occupied territories. Unfortunately, as fanatical as organizations like Hamas are (and not necessarily working towards the same goals as moderate Palestinians), there are Israeli factions that are equally fanatical in their focus on a greater Israel that includes the West Bank. Sharon strongly supports continued Zionism and settlements in the occupied territories, and it can be argued that maintaining the status quo or even heating things up promotes the cause and is worth the losses in the long run. The initial provocation of the current Infatada began with Sharon’s inflammatory visit to the contested holy site Al-Haram al-Sharif. You cannot ignore this aspect of Israeli politics. Here’s one Israeli’s view of how Sharon uses terrorism to achieve his ultimate goals for the region:
Palestinian terrorism thus serves Israel's interests on both an international and a national level. Internationally, Israel's propaganda machine efficiently exploits every terror attack to strengthen Israel's image as a victim, and to obscure and justify the proceeding oppression of the Palestinians. Moreover, the Israeli use of terrorism has now been adopted by the American administration, that keeps sending Israel money – $200 million last week – for "fighting terrorism" (note that Israel may spend it as it wishes!); and, as the Washington Post put it (28.7.02), "the United States should not pressure Sharon's government while Palestinian violence continues."
… Keeping the Israeli people constantly exposed to fatal violence (and to "terror alerts", true or false) is the best way to ensure national coherence. Understandably terrified, most Israelis indeed back the most futile, absurd and fatuous – not to say immoral – operations of their government, misled to believe that its goal is securing their lives rather than perpetuating a murderous occupation that most Israelis do not want.
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h073102.html
I believe there are alternatives short of exterminating Arabs already living in refugee camps. Unfortunately, both sides have to make concessions (right of return/west bank settlements) that neither (hard core elements, at least) seem interested in at the present time. In the meantime, I don’t think we, as a country, should support Sharon any more than we should Arafat.
Charon
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I used the wrong term, what I meant is that they target civillians.
The bombing of Jenine was just a way to kill civillians.
F16 are not accurate enough to target terrorists in a refugee camp. Israel also as blood on their hands.
Much less then the Palestinians though, I agree.
The problem with some of your claims is that you put the entire population in the same boat, instead of pointing the finger at the real problem, the damn extremists, like Yassin.
Killing him will not solve anything though, another will fill the void.
He will also become a martyr, no matter how silly it sounds to us.
You know that just as well as I do.
I guess they are trully hopeless because there is no one who can lead them to peace.
If only people followed logic instead of stupid religious leaders like Yassin. :(
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Originally posted by maslo
since you consider killing people on the streets to be WTFG, we could probably agree that terrorism is efective and good way to go.
ehh ?
WOW! You can read my mind!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: You are absolutely AMAZING!!! er.... not
I don't really consider palestinians civilians after 9/11. It would seem that I have a slight problem with watching people cheer and dance in the streets when muslims fly airplanes into buildings in America and kill our people. So if Isreal kills some of the "civilians" ooops :rolleyes:
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Udie
So Palestinians deserve to die because they expressed and opinion right after 9/11 and they are no longer civilians to you?
If civilians are killed in the search for Osama is that also just an "oops" ?
When civilians where killed during invasion of Iraq, was that also just an "oops" ?
Either it was just a bad choise of words or you sir have some explaining to do when you codemn terrorists that kills civilians. I know Israel in this case did not target civilians but they KNEW that the probability of killing inocent civilians was extremly high/inevetable.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Udie
So Palestinians deserve to die because they expressed and opinion right after 9/11 and they are no longer civilians to you?
If civilians are killed in the search for Osama is that also just an "oops" ?
When civilians where killed during invasion of Iraq, was that also just an "oops" ?
Either it was just a bad choise of words or you sir have some explaining to do when you codemn terrorists that kills civilians. I know Israel in this case did not target civilians but they KNEW that the probability of killing inocent civilians was extremly high/inevetable.
explaining to do? I think I made myself perfectly clear but I'll put it another way for you. When I saw the pal's dancing and lauging and cheering in the streets on 9/11 they lost any ounce of respect/compassion that I had for them (which wasn't much to begin with). So basicly I think they are in the situation of they made their bed and now it's time to go nighty night.
I know Israel in this case did not target civilians but they KNEW that the probability of killing inocent civilians was extremly high/inevetable
If you can't see the diference of what Isreal does to what the terrorist (arafat and this loser they offed this weekend included) then there's no real point in explaining it. Sorry they killed one of your hero's I guess.....
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Im with Isreal on this one.
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I don't know about you but if I saw a guy at the top Isreal's deathlist... I wouldn't wanna EVER be standing to close to him.
Not saying they deserved to die but they had to know there was a risk.... right? I certainly wouldn't let me kid hang around him.
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LOL, my hero..yeah :rolleyes: clever attempt but no.
Im sorry but you can't allow for more and more collateral damage just to get results and still pretend to be the good guy that everyone should respect and help.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The policies of terror and intefada followed by the Palestinian leadership has not brought Palestine closer to being. Instead they bring death and poverty to their people.
There was another state that was brought into being which did not use terror, but rather appealing to the goodwill of their rulers. Had the palestinian leadership chosen this route, Palestine would have been celebrating it 25th anniversary. In the era of instant journalism the tactics of Ghandi would be highly effective.
Instead they will blow up a bus or a pizza parlor and achieve nothing.
That idea might be crazy enough to work. :eek:
Not that it will ever happen, mind you. :(
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Im sorry but you can't allow for more and more collateral damage just to get results and still pretend to be the good guy that everyone should respect and help.
Well you just hit upon the reason why I wonder when anybody comes to the defense of terrorist when ever Isreal kills another one. Like that time last week when Isreal blew up that bus ;)
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I have never taken the side of the terrorist, i have pointed out the danger of claiming moral superiority one day while you kill civilians the next and indirectly saying "oops" and calling it unfortionate.
If you wanna win the war on terror you have to win the hearts and minds of potential future terrorist. You dont do that by stepping on the same moral values that you try to pass on to others.
You have to be alot cleaner than the once you try to wash :) (lol, just made that one up myself but i think it fits :D )
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Originally posted by lazs2
I believe that every country ought to have a copy of "the big book of terrorists" ... the book would be filled with pictures and the pictures would get a big red X through em as these guys were eliminated. The book would also have pictures of the people who funded the terrorists.... As their pictures were crossed out it would become far less attractive for little rich boys to play bad boy.
lazs
A lot of US politicians - right wing mostly - would be in that list...
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Strange the fuss over Yassin, who deserved what he got. (Wether it will have a beneficial effect is another matter)
This from Ha'aretz yesterday:
Fatma Al-Jalad, 8, was playing in her backyard in Khan Yunis Friday, a few hundred meters from IDF positions surrounding the nearby Ganei Tal settlement, her father said. Suddenly fire opened from an IDF watch tower, hitting Fatma in the chest. She died yesterday morning in Khan Yunis Hospital. IDF sources said "the troops fired only warning shots at that time."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/406802.html
Current "score" of children below the age of 12 is 36 Israeli children killed by Palestinians, 78 Palestinian children killed by Israel.
As to military force "working", deaths from Palestinian terrorism within Israel per quarter:
2000
last quarter (the intifada began at the end of September)
4
2001
1st quarter 14
2nd quarter 28
3rd quarter 19
4th quarter 41
2002
1st quarter 91
2nd quarter 81
3rd quarter 20
4th quarter 38
2003
1st quarter 34
2nd quarter 23
3rd quarter 38
4th quarter 25
2004
1st quarter 32
The last quarter saw more Israelis killed in Israel by terrorist attacks than any quarter in the first year of the Intifada. The average for every quarter of the Intifada is 35, the current quarter, which isn't over yet, has seen 32 deaths.
Doesn't really seem to have worked, does it?
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thanks for numbers Nashwan but some people cant count, when it prove that they speak BS.....
may be its not their ego, may be its poor edu system
who knows
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So, you support ethnic cleansing Steve?
If you mean killing every militant Palistinian... YES.
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Originally posted by Steve
If you mean killing every militant Palistinian... YES.
so you have nothing agains theory that they should kill everyone who does support Israeli army, include tax payers from country, whitch support them ....
ok then that makes sense
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Originally posted by Pongo
Im with Isreal on this one.
Holy ****e.... Pongo and I agree on something....
THE APOCOLYPSE IS NEAR!!!!!
:D
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(http://www.dd841.com/images/arft.JPG)
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
I have never taken the side of the terrorist, i have pointed out the danger of claiming moral superiority one day while you kill civilians the next and indirectly saying "oops" and calling it unfortionate.
If you wanna win the war on terror you have to win the hearts and minds of potential future terrorist. You dont do that by stepping on the same moral values that you try to pass on to others.
Great Idea....make a terrorist happy...go kill yourself.
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One less Terrorist in the world is a good thing.
And why are people trying to defend terrorists? Are they so involved in their AH wars that they have no clue what's going on in the real world?
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Whoever said to win the war on terror you have to win their heearts and minds.
The US tried that in Vietnam, it didn't work to well.
The USSR tried that in Afghanistan, that didn't work too well either.
Can you give me an example of that actually working int he past?
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I'll bet Sheikh Ahmed Yassin knows the TRUTH about God now. Wonder what he would say IF he could come back.
He was acclaimed as the spiritual leader of Hamaas, and yet encouraged his followers to disobey one of the Koran's strictest commandments...not to kill women, children, or innocents.
Good riddance to a murderous thug. A shame this will not bring Israel any real security. Their teachers are armed to repel terrorist attacks. Frightening.
Shuckins/Leggern
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Wasn't this guy the Hamas leader that declared there would be no peace until he destroyed Israel?
He doesn't want to negotiate, so the Israeli's took him out of the picture. Simple really. Might even be a bonus for the 'peace process' once the ragheads calm down.
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Originally posted by TheMadOne
Whoever said to win the war on terror you have to win their heearts and minds.
The US tried that in Vietnam, it didn't work to well.
The USSR tried that in Afghanistan, that didn't work too well either.
Can you give me an example of that actually working int he past?
TheMadOne you need to actually read some history bud. The U.S. in Vietnam moved whole villages etc off of their ancestral lands into basically a crowded refugee encampment, limited access to their fields etc. We attempted to impose a corrupt political regime on them and at the same time set up free fire zones through out much of the rural countryside. How anyone can call this "winning their hearts and minds" is beyond me. Now mind you I have no problem with our intentions , but as the saying goes "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions". Read "A Bright Shining Lie" to gain some insight as to where we failed. As far as the Soviets experience in Afghanistan I haven't read any real studies or accounts of what their policies were. But to say the least I find it quite hard to swallow any true attempts were made to pacify the population outside of the use of sheer massive military force.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
If the Palestinians would only LEARN to stop harboring terrorists, this bs would end...
But yet they can not learn because idiots continue to feel "sorry" for the murbering bastards. Hats off to Israel, I hope they lay waste to the entire lot of the PLO supporting bastages... My only question is when are they gonna pop Arrafat???
Could not have said it better.:aok
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Originally posted by Bodhi
If the Palestinians would only LEARN to stop harboring terrorists, this bs would end...
But yet they can not learn because idiots continue to feel "sorry" for the murbering bastards. Hats off to Israel, I hope they lay waste to the entire lot of the PLO supporting bastages... My only question is when are they gonna pop Arrafat???
Eventually some people in the middle east will start to think, hey there is a better way. Its called Darwinisn.
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I was just going to say that!
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What many fail to see, or don't want to see, or try to see around, is that Israel isn't fighting Palestine. Israel is fighting the Arab world. Israel is fighting Islam, and unlike us, they're fighting not just for peace of mind, but for survival. There is nothing new about this concept. People have observed, quite accurately, since the inception of the Israeli state that they are surrounded by enemies. It's a fact that never becomes any less true even after being repeated a billion times. It's the Arab world verses a tiny chunk of land, in habited by a tiny segment of the regional population. Palestine is simply a very convenient fulcrum over which the whole of the arab world can leverage their politcal ambitions in regards to the Jews.
I am a Jew, so I'm baised. I'm also a Russian Jew and have family and friends living in Israel. I've been there, during better times, and have seen the way these people live day to day. I've also seen the amazing job these peolpe have done with their land, turning the barren desert into viable farmland, building beautiful cities in areas so plagued by conflict you'd wonder how any structure has survived more than a decade. Their accomplishments, not to mention millenia of Israelite history, has earned them to the right to keep that land. I don't give a flying F what people say about displaced Palestinians... If we return everything that was given away during geo-political displacements, the US would effectively have to be depopulated of a quarter billion people to facilitate the Native American revival. Things change, history moves on, more worthy, yes more WORTHY people move in to where little or nothing of worth was taking place. It's sad but it's true. Progress and change produce casualties of their own. I submit that the Israelis, in their ingenuity, in their industriousness, in their capacity to create that which is good for all the world's people, represent some of the best of what humanity has to offer. Can this be said of any other soveriegnty in the middle east?
The Israelis are waging a war of survival. The survival in question is that of a small but determined race of people that despite a history or hatred and oppression, has never given up, never laid down under the boot and likely never will. They continue to survive, every day, in conditions most people would consider uncomfortable simply by virtue of the climate, and against overwhelming odds brought on by an entire region that despises them to the core. Their enemy is backwards, fanatically religious in the biblical sense of the term, unforgiving, illogical and bigger by a factor of twenty.
This assasination, and any that came before it and all that will come after is the best they can do given the situation. It's a choice between bystander deaths, dismembered children, bulldozed houses, international censure or total annhiliation at the hands of a group that is more ruthless and less intelligent.
Anybody that wants to sit around and distribute flowery words of peace and understanding and olive branches in the face of suicide bombers, I'd venture to say that you live in a world completely removed from the realities of an ideological war taking place no more than an howitzer shot from where you sleep, and more often than not, far closer.
Yes, I side with Israel. I always will. If it takes the destruction of the Arab world as we know if for them to survive, so be it.
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so you have nothing agains theory that they should kill everyone who does support Israeli army, include tax payers from country, whitch support them ....
WTF are you talking about? What does this have to do w/ armed militants? Set the crack pipe down and try to type something at least marginally coherent.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
I have never taken the side of the terrorist, i have pointed out the danger of claiming moral superiority one day while you kill civilians the next and indirectly saying "oops" and calling it unfortionate.
If you wanna win the war on terror you have to win the hearts and minds of potential future terrorist. You dont do that by stepping on the same moral values that you try to pass on to others.
You have to be alot cleaner than the once you try to wash :) (lol, just made that one up myself but i think it fits :D )
ok sorry for saying they're you're hero's, I've been trying some lately to not do the name calling or smart arse intardnet thing but failed some today.
I used to agree with you about the hearts and mind thing. But don't anymore. This is a freakin war, I think it's WW3 myself, thankfully non-nuclear so far. I think the way to win this thing is to kill all the terrorist. This may not, hell it's most likely not be possible. But if we kill enough of them around the world maybe people will figure out that terrorism is NOT the way to further your agenda. Don't ya think there would be a country named Palestine right now if the stupid idiots would stop bombin, kidnapping, hijacking and generally murder anything Isreali? They don't want a state. They would have one by now if that's what they as a people truely desired. They'd rather kill Jews than live in peace.
You have to be alot cleaner than the once you try to wash
That's a good line! I just don't think it applies to terrorist. We're not trying to wash or clean them. We're trying to kill them. I see nothing clean about that. Inocent civilians are going to be killed. Sorry, but ya know we could be one of those civies killed too. Remember that's what our enemy wants, us DEAD, and as many of us as possible. So quite naturally I'd like to kill them first. And as I said before the Pal's reaction to 9/11 kind of cemented my view of them and ended any compassion. Though I guess I do feel sorry for any child that's born in to that God forsaken nationality, race or what ever it is they are.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Now Capt. Pork, choosing just one side for annihilation wouldn't be fair now would it.
I don't believe that Israel is guilty of terrorism, and I won't get into a game of semantics with you over the meaning of the word beyond saying that it's not terrorism when the people with whom the legitimate military target has shamefully surrounded himself get killed in an attack. It's the fault of the sanctimonious coward who put them there. It's a terrorist act to teach a child that terrorism in the name of Allah, is the best thing that child can aspire to.
Furthermore, if it comes down to choosing who stays and who goes, and I'm not saying it has, I would choose for the Jews to stay. I'd make that decision in a second.
You can call me a terrorist for saying so, you can call be a racist or a bastard or a fool but at the end of the day, they do more to improve the planet on which they live. In a global community where resources and land are finite, they've done more for humanity as a whole than their nieghbors--who've done little more than pray on their hands and knees, complain, and when the first two don't work, resort to the most shameless, indescriminate acts of violence.
It's brutal, cruel but plain reality.
Of course I'm probably wrong. I do, afterall, have to pay out of my own pocket for health insurance.
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If only the Israels would stop sending settlers and illegally occupying the Gaza Strip and west bank.
If only the Palestinians would stop attacking Isreal.
If only the Isrealis would stop killing Palesitinian children
If only the Palastinians would stop killing Isreali children.
Same as it ever was.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
If only the Israels would stop sending settlers and illegally occupying the Gaza Strip and west bank.
If only the Palestinians would stop attacking Isreal.
If only the Isrealis would stop killing Palesitinian children
If only the Palastinians would stop killing Isreali children.
Same as it ever was.
There is no such thing as a Palestinian race or country
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I thought this BB was not allowed to gloat over or celebrate the death of another human being? Isn't it over the line to be happy about the death of a human being? I would have thought this thread to be shut down by now.
A human being has been killed here folks.
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Originally posted by NUKE
There is no such thing as a Palestinian race or country
What does race have do do with it? And although you might think that there is no such country the nations of the world think differently. And at the end of the day it is the rest of the world that desides wether or not if a country is a country, through recognition of it being such.
"After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.
In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.
In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People. The General Assembly conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in other international conferences held under United Nations auspices."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
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Originally posted by Thrawn
In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
Do you even know why the 1967 war happened?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Also seeing how you characterise the Israelis as "more worthy" I feel I can say that I would just as well carve your bones into small toys, as I would any Palestinian terrorist sympathiser. You're just two sides of the same coin.
I'm actually moving there for two years as soon as I'm done college. I was planning to go to law school here but that is being deferred. Arrangments have been made. I already have a place to live waiting for me. Life isn't a computer simulation for me.
Regarding carving my bones... your perception of the world is based on the concept that we can all get along, survive and succeed, without any toes getting stepped on. Your perception is thus flawed. Land is settled and resettled all the time. Certain populations prosper over others, but if you think the Palestinians could reach a level of civilization in 50 years that the Israelis did, then I'm afraid you're painfully out of touch. With or without outside support they are a group that anthropologists need to study as an anacronysm from the 11th century. They either need to grow up or vanish. Plain and simple.
Both sides of the same coin-- won't agrue with you there. It's either us or them.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Capt. Pork, the state of Israel was founded on terrorism. .
Oh really? Israel was one of the first nations on this earth. Israel and the Jews where and are one of the most consistantly persecuted and brutalized in the history of man.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Oh really? Israel was one of the first nations on this earth. Israel and the Jews where and are one of the most consistantly persecuted and brutalized in the history of man.
It's okay Nuke, some people enjoy handing out judgements from their morally-elevated, geographically-removed high-horses.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
It's okay Nuke, some people enjoy handing out judgements from their morally-elevated, geographically-removed high-horses.
Im not even a Jew and I can clearly see this.
to the Jews and for what they had to suffer through and what they suffer through even today. Nobody has my respect more than Israel and the Jews.
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GScholz-
Israel was founded on terrorism? I might be mistaken, but wasn't it founded to be a seperate state for the Jews?
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Originally posted by irritant
GScholz-
Israel was founded on terrorism? I might be mistaken, but wasn't it founded to be a seperate state for the Jews?
To people like GSholz, Israel doesn't have a right to exist I guess.
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So GSholz, under what cercumstances would you consider an Israeli state legitimate? Maybe you think that the Jews never had a state and never should have one?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Just like the Palestinians now, with much of the same methods.
I don't seem to remember that Israelis used suicide bombers to get their land in the late 1940s.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Capt. Pork, you don't have a clue as to my perception of the world. Perhaps when you grow up you will have a clue, but now you don't. Your bias is understandable, but if you ask me to choose between Islamic murdering scum and Jewish murdering scum, I'd rather both be wiped out. Hopefully there still are people on both sides that don't think like you.
I don't have a clue because I don't see things your way? I'm sorry, I dare say that in my twenty some odd years of being on this earth and living in the two nations I've called home, I've developed a cynical viewpoint.
You refer to the Jews as oppressors and yet these 'oppressors' live in a world where they're outnumbered 1 to 20 where they live, and 1 to 100 as far as those that would just as fast see them gone entirely. As far as I'm concerned, the measures they're taking right now are mild, if survival is the key. Your survival has clearly never been threatened, and thus you advocate the live-and-let-live policy that will never work when Islam surrounds you like a circle of torch-bearing inquisitors.
How much time have you spent in the occupied territories? How much time have you spent in the middle east? That's where your perception comes from.
I have to say, Gsholtz, my decision to go there and be there, risking my hide, was, in a very, very small way, influenced by some of the things I've heard spoken on this board. People like you need to stay exactly where you are--warm and safe. Protected and ensured against everything under god by the government. Otherwise this world will be populated only by cynics.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Nuke, the Israeli state is legitimate. No "people" have a "right" to a state. If the Japanese islands suddenly sank into the Pacific Ocean, the survivors doesn't have the right to carve out a new nation somewhere else.
So you agree that the "Palestinian" Arabs have no right to carve out a new nation then?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Then you haven't read this whole thread have you?
No, but I know history well enough to say that.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Im not even a Jew and I can clearly see this.
to the Jews and for what they had to suffer through and what they suffer through even today. Nobody has my respect more than Israel and the Jews.
As a Jew I thank you.
:aok
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Did the Israeli helo pilot get to paint a wheelchair killmarker on the side of his craft?
And why are the ragheads so pissed? The gimp is in alla-land pounding away at his 40 virgins right now, they should be happy for the old boy.
Which makes me think, do female martyrs get 40 male virgins? Like any woman would want 40 newbies poking around trying to find the sweet spot, where's the reward in that?
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Law it's what I feel and believe in my heart! NO OTHER people in history have been persecuted and demonized as much as the Jews have been.
Israel is a GREAT nation and they will survive despite ignorant people.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Perhaps with the exception of the Native Americans.
What happened to the native Americans? The Europeans kind of took their land it seems.
The Spanish, French, Mexicans and British took the native American's land. Want sources?
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Well yes the Jews have has there fair share of hardships.
But so have the American Indian and the African blacks .
Many peoples have been persicuted over the years.
But I think to understand the mindset of the modern day jew you must look into history and see that they have been scewed over so many times it aint funny.
Heck 6 million dead alone in ww2.
So you have to excuse them for wanting to hold onto there homeland any way they can.
They have understood for years that you cannot bargain with the terrorist you must fight them on there own level.
And I think you will find the IDF kills far fewer civilians than the terrorist do.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Yes Nuke, the Europeans ... your ancestors.
How do you know who my ancestors are?
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Originally posted by GScholz
I completely agree that the Israelis have the right to defend themselves, I just disagree with their methods.
Oh, and btw. I think you will find that the Israeli/Palestinian kill ratio favours the Israelis by far.
The PLO tagets civlilians the IDF targets the PLO.
I see i huge difference there.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Capt. Pork, you don't have a clue as to my perception of the world because you have not seen what I have seen, or done what I have done. You're a young man still in school that has never seen war except on TV. Perhaps your stay in Israel will change that, but I think not.
I'll have my stay in Israel and god willing, will return, more educated, more mature, more enlightened and perhaps more angry, or perhaps not....But that leads me to wonder....
What, exactly, is your 'perception' of this topic worth, practically speaking? Seems to me your just another mouth with an uninterrupted air-supply from your lungs.
It's likely I'm mistaken. Am I?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Capt. Pork, my "perception" is worth just as much and as little as anyone else's that post here. Or did I misunderstand your question?
Actually, Scholz, that's the first point on which we agree. Our perceptions are all equally valuable and equally worthless here.
For the sake of our collective happiness, I hope you have a good day. It is time for me to end mine.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Palestinian deaths: 2 484
Palestinian injuries: 22 607
(Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistic http://www.pcbs.org/ )
Israeli deaths: 806
Israeli injuries: 5 586
(Ministry of Foreign Affairs, State of Israel website http://www.mfa.gov.il/ )
Seems to me the Israelies are getting killed at a2-1 rate according to your stats there.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Here's a nice breakdown of the children killed during the 2001-2002 Intifada up to 15 August 2002 by Defence for Children International:
And how many of these children were armed? How many of these children were between armed palestinians sniping at IDF checkpoints and Israeli soldiers?
You do know about that particular tactic dont you...send in a bunch of 4-10 yr old kids to throw rocks at the Israeli soldiers, then have 4-5 guys armed with AK-47s standing 50-100 meters behind the kids shooting at the Israeli soldiers. It makes for wonderful tv images I can tell you...since the Israeli soldiers will have to shoot over the kids heads to hit the gunmen...and sometimes the pals get real lucky and have a stray bullet hit one of the kids. It makes for even better tv images....
But its all the Israelis fault really...somehow.
The kill stats say nothing whatsoever. You have armed palestinians shot dead while attacking an Israeli settlement count as civilians. You have kids deliberately put in harms way by their older friends and even parents counted as civilians killed by Israel.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Do you even know why the 1967 war happened?
Yes. But I don't think this has anything to do with your contention that Palastine isn't a recognised country.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yes. But I don't think this has anything to do with your contention that Palastine isn't a recognised country.
Palestine isnt a recognized country...whats your point?
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Originally posted by AVRO1
Stupid move by Israel, violence has not worked in the last 15 years, I see no reason why it should start working now.
The only result will be an increase in violence.
Which is the opposite of what they want, I think. :confused:
A brilliant move by Ariel Sharon. Escalation of violence is what he wants. Any reaction by the palestines will justify massive military actions by Israel. The target was perfect - easy to justify his execution before the Isreal people and sure to stir up the pot amongst the palestines. Sharon knows how to play the cards and I fear the arabs will play along... we looking forward to bright times!
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How peacefull place that part of earth would be if a meteor would wipe away every jew and arab from there.
One can only hope :)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Palestine isnt a recognized country...whats your point?
...interesting rebuttal technique, simple denile. Unfortunational I already posted sources from the UN website that says that, in fact, it is recognised.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
...interesting rebuttal technique, simple denile. Unfortunational I already posted sources from the UN website that says that, in fact, it is recognised.
You are funny.
Not even the pals themselves claim that they have their own country...they WANT a country and they think they have the right to their own country...but not even the most fanatical Hamas supporter claims that they have a country right now.
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We can argue this forever, but the violence and killing will increase after the killing of Yassin.
I really hope im proven wrong but i don't think so.
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Originally posted by NUKE
What happened to the native Americans? The Europeans kind of took their land it seems.
The Spanish, French, Mexicans and British took the native American's land. Want sources?
Don't forget the Americans as well! After all we Brits only had 13 colonies in the East. All that land to the west full of various native nations, or were. Destiny of the nation and the frontier spirit and all that jazz.
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Originally posted by NUKE
How do you know who my ancestors are?
Are you a native american sniper ??? :eek:
;)
:D
:rofl
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interesting that someone who is openly disturbed about virtual blood on AH2's cockpits can so easily condone the killing of another person.
not that i have one opinion or another on whether that guy shoulda died, but by killing him Isreal guaranteed more violence.. and now Hamas is so pissed that they've also threatened the US.
How would you feel Eagler if someone you knew was killed as part of retaliation for this?
I'm of the opinion that the US should just cut it's ties with Isreal. People wonder why so many hate the US, maybe it's because the hardware we sell to Isreal goes right to killing terrorists (and unfortuantely, any civilians around them, which is the real problem)
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I guess if this was 1945 some of you guys would be saying that killing Hitler was a big mistake as well.
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Originally posted by moose
interesting that someone who is openly disturbed about virtual blood on AH2's cockpits can so easily condone the killing of another person.
not that i have one opinion or another on whether that guy shoulda died, but by killing him Isreal guaranteed more violence.. and now Hamas is so pissed that they've also threatened the US.
How would you feel Eagler if someone you knew was killed as part of retaliation for this?
I'm of the opinion that the US should just cut it's ties with Isreal. People wonder why so many hate the US, maybe it's because the hardware we sell to Isreal goes right to killing terrorists (and unfortuantely, any civilians around them, which is the real problem)
one is a game which i do not think the "blood spatters" add anything to except gore for the kiddies and the other my reality which i contend with daily.
yes I condone the extermination of scum whose sole purpose on this earth was to brain wash others to kill me and mine .. you suggest you stand around wringing ur hands and try to talk to the nutcase(s)?
i am glad the US supports Israel. It is the only country in the region which is half way civil and living in the 21st century
i support sending weapons and money to Israel for them to kill those who live to kill them and if they had the means would kill you and I and our families in the blind of an eye
how do you know i do not know someone who has already been killed by terrorists actions?
I forgot, you know all :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by moose
I'm of the opinion that the US should just cut it's ties with Isreal. People wonder why so many hate the US, maybe it's because the hardware we sell to Isreal goes right to killing terrorists (and unfortuantely, any civilians around them, which is the real problem)
Yeah, you're right. Our appeasement of the terrorists is long overdue.
To balance out the mistakes we've made in supporting Israel's war on terror, and to win favor with all those who hate the US, we should spend the next few years selling hardware only to Hamas and the PLO--preferably Hamas since they're more pragamatic in the killing of Israelis.
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"It is the only country in the region which is half way civil and living in the 21st century"
In what way Eagler? because its not Muslim? It shares your religious belives? resebles a westen lifesetyle?
careful Eagler
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
In what way Eagler? because its not Muslim? It shares your religious belives? resebles a westen lifesetyle?
Muslim=(for the most part) fanatically religious, secretively, if not outwardly subversive towards the US, racist and intolerant towards all non-muslim peoples, infadels, I think we're called. They'd rather sit around praying to Allah rather than create a stable world around themselves. And when the stable world doesn't create itself, they blame the West and attack Israel.
You should be the one being careful when you use words like 'religious beliefs' to describe the belief systems that govern Muslim nations. Religious isn't a strong enough word for what they have because religious beliefs don't just include the way they pray or their attitude towards liquor. Their religion is the motivator and justifier of everything they do. These are nothing short of 'life beliefs'. They are behind the times by a thousand years in this sense, and in many others(treatment of women?).
Yes, that is exactly why Israel is an important friend, ally and asset. Israel is a pragmatic nation, concerned with its success in a very practical manner. Call this attitude 'Western' if you want. I consider it the only intelligent way to exist. IN regards to Israel's place in the middle East, at least we have a vested interest in each other's success.
Minus perhaps their need to keep selling us oil, The Arab states would just as soon see the US vanish as Israel.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
"It is the only country in the region which is half way civil and living in the 21st century"
In what way Eagler? because its not Muslim? It shares your religious belives? resebles a westen lifesetyle?
careful Eagler
in every shape and way of the term
Have nothing against Islam as I have nothing against any other major faith in the world. Issues lie in mans interpretation of a given faith, many times for his own self interest
I think the issue is that there are many who stilll have a hard on for the Jewish ppl in the world - that is why the sat on their hands back in the 30's/40's when they were rounded up and gassed and that is why they cry foul everytime they try to defend themselves yet hardly make a peep when they are blown to bits in malls & buses ... poor old Pals - mean ole Israel/US
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Originally posted by Eagler
i am glad the US supports Israel. It is the only country in the region which is half way civil and living in the 21st century
You're also supporting a country which is using apartheid but guess that's nothing new to you americans :)
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Yes Eagler, to many people hate jews and to many hate muslims....Lets leave it there, at something we can agree on.
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Originally posted by DmdBT
And why are the ragheads so pissed? The gimp is in alla-land pounding away at his 40 virgins right now, they should be happy for the old boy.
LOL .... while I don't prescribe to the delivery methods of this point, I think it brings up a good question.
Is the anger that is shown for sending this guy to his reward, actually a sign of lack of faith? There really shouldn't be "legitimate" anger than if they truly believe that he is "in like Flinn" now and having a good time.
Of course, most ppl react that way towards death... even the ones that believe in heaven. just thinking out loud....
:)
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I think the Hamas Charter pretty much says it all.
Article Thirteen PEACEFUL SOLUTIONS (PEACE) INITIATIVES AND INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCES
(Peace) Initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of this faith, the movement educates it members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."
From time to time a clamouring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that conditions, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the (prospective) parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conference are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did Unbelievers do justice to Believers?
"And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor with Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (himself) is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper."
Sura 2 (the Cow) verse 120.
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiative, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game...
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For Dowding
"JERUSALEM, March 22 — In killing the Hamas spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Israel is wagering that it has so weakened his Palestinian faction that it cannot retaliate with the wave of revenge attacks it has threatened.
After nearly two years of systematic Israeli raids against Hamas and other violent Palestinian groups, suicide bombings fell to 20 last year, down from 54 a year earlier. Over all, Israeli deaths fell by half in 2003 compared with 2002."
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Clue is Crusher that even if Hamas will continue its actions no matter what, the safe havens, fundings, recruiting and general support for them will decline/go away if their opponents play by the book and practise the same morals that they preach.
Same for the US actually. After 9/11 the entire world (with a few exceptions of course) was behind the US and you were seen as the victims. When the US/Bush decided to abuse that support, the anti-US feelings started to grow. In stead of having more support after 9/11 the US now enjoys far less, and maybe less than at any time in history. That is not a good way to fight terror.
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Eagler, my bro knew someone who died in WTC2 and his best friend barely made it out alive. 9/11 struck him and our family as it must have many others. I never said that you didn't have your own connection, but try to explain to me how more violence can help bring peace.
Isolationism didn't work in 1941 because Japan viewed us as a threat to their expansion in the Pacific. Society has matured past those days for the most part, and I don't see why it wouldn't work now.
Maybe this guy shoulda died, but Isreal has been waging a war against the Palestineins for quite a while now while we looked on. How many civilain deaths for them? Are those acceptable losses? I bet they aren't to the families of those killed, who have had nothing to do with the conflict. (oh wait, i forgot that all muslims are terrorists and probably deserve this)
If China supported a country that waged a war on Catholics, would you not think Americans would be outraged? It amazes me why some people don't understand why so much of the world hates America.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Clue is Crusher that even if Hamas will continue its actions no matter what, the safe havens, fundings, recruiting and general support for them will decline/go away if their opponents play by the book and practise the same morals that they preach.
Same for the US actually. After 9/11 the entire world (with a few exceptions of course) was behind the US and you were seen as the victims. When the US/Bush decided to abuse that support, the anti-US feelings started to grow. In stead of having more support after 9/11 the US now enjoys far less, and maybe less than at any time in history. That is not a good way to fight terror.
exactly
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Im glad not everyone thinks im an crazy terrorist supporter moose :)
Like it or not folks, the war on terror is in a way a popularity contest.
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Ok moose so humour me here.
Hamas and the radical factions over in the middle east have said the only solution is the total elimination of the state of Israel.
Now Israel is a nuclear power which has shown in the past that if they are going to be overrun they are quite willing to nuke the attacking country.
So what is your solution? Negotiations will not end anything. Appeasement will not end anything. The attitude of Hamas is keep taking what you can and killing what you can until Israel is gone.
So are you basically let Israel sit there and listen to these leaders in Hamas call for their destruction and do nothing when the suicide bombers hit them?
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I dont give a rats bellybutton what Isreal does, but let her buy her weapons from someone else.
I'm tired of the US being blamed for all the stuff we dont do. We already screw up enough ourselves.
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Habu
Do you think killing the leaders will stop the suicide bombings?
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The most intelligent Moose evar.:D
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Originally posted by GScholz
Perhaps with the exception of the Native Americans.
I am an American of mixed heritage; some European and some being Pima Indian, a tribe that hails from the area now called Arizona. My views are not horribly popular among some of the more outspoken of the tribe but it seems that the American Indian has not suffered more than other peoples who have had history wash over them.
The Celtic tribes of Scotland, Wales and Ireland were stomped by the English in the British Isles to the point where their religion and language was displaced, and their culture was replaced by that of the rulers of England. While some of the more colorful ceremonial rituals have been maintained, the difference among English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish are undoubtably less than when the Celtic tribes were untouched.
Romans stomped on the English and brought their customs and religion to those who inhabited the land south of Hadrian’s Wall. These people also had their culture changed, their women raped, their warriors killed, their existence fundamentally changed. As the legions spread the empire, disease followed and those who had no natural immunity suffered. National policy of Rome was to irradicate threats to the empire.
While I thank those Europeans who still show concern for American Indians, (at term which I personally prefer to Native American) there are more American Indians alive today than at the time of Lewis and Clark.
The biggest problem facing the American Indian today, a problem which I believe to be the foundation for the majority of our problems such as poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. is the condescending nanny attitude of the government that needs to take care of the Indian population.
The welfare state in which many Indians still live condemns us to poverty and crime the same way that feeding bears causes that noble creature to live at the dump and raid campgrounds in the National Parks instead of dining on Elk in a mountain paradise as they were intended. These bears are relocated, and if they return are killed, much they same way we deal with a human criminal.
While I thank those who have American Indian welfare foremost in their hearts, it is time for us to stand on our own and stop feeling sorry for ourselves and have others stop feeling sorry for us.
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I bet if there is ever a palistinian state, the Palistinian terrorists will still attack Isreal.
They will in effect force isreal to attack them by their actions. Now that is just my opinion, but If they get their state watch it happen.
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I bet if there is ever a palistinian state, the Palistinian terrorists will still attack Isreal.
They will in effect force isreal to attack them by their actions. Now that is just my opinion, but If they get their state watch it happen.
And if that were the case, I doubt there would be many who paid much attention to what Israel did in return.
It's too bad those hecters of land on the West bank are such a flash point. You could really see Israel potentially becoming a regional economic powerhouse and certainly an international player in more areas if it was generally at peace. No more need for the handouts either.
Good labor/manufacturing opportunites for the palestinians too while they build their state. I think Israel now uses Egypt and Jordan as its regional manufacturing partners.
Charon
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Charon
I hope they get the chance to have a state, and I hope as a people they will be mature enough to go with it and become prosperous. I would hope they would stop letting the other arab nations use them to attack isreal. I would hope they will take it on themselves to prosper and stop blaming isreal.
I do not think they will, if they get that chance. I think group like hamas and the PLO will keep the attacks on isreal going.
I think when Isreal hits back the UN will go after isreal and not the new Palistine.
I am not sure Isreal will give them that state any time soon though. But they should because it would be vindication, though I am sure some will stilll always find ways to blame them.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Well damn, chalk up another dead bad guy and another victory for the ole Hellfire missiles.
Hamas declaring war on us? Oh please, sometimes you have to wonder what a few thermonuclear detonations would due for that region of the world.
er kill a lot of Jewish people?
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moose
do you think ANYTHING the US could do would prevent another terrorist attack on her?
anything - from removing all support from Israel to giving Hamas weapons, heck give them a couple of nukes
do you think all of a sudden terrorists around the world would be our best buddies? or do you think we would still be attacked for who and what we are and what we stand for.
who said it is not wise to feed the lion as the lion will just eat you last ...
not supporting Israel would be a huge mistake.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Habu
Do you think killing the leaders will stop the suicide bombings?
No. Nothing will stop the suicide bombers. They are insane and they seek the destruction of Israel. There is no peace with those people. They will not stop until the Israeli state is eradicated...I doubt they will stop then even, they will probably just find a new target.
What it does do however, is that it makes the sucicide bombings less planned, less thought through, with poorer equipment, it lessens the body count.
No one can stop all angry guys strapping on a bombs, looking for a target. Those attacks generally are very ineffective though. Often the only KIA will be the attacker himself, at other times some security guard will be able to stop him. It is very rare that these improvised attacks lead to any large body counts.
The worst case sucicide bombings involve several bombers hitting the same target at various intervals. Like the Bali bomb, but with suicide bombers. (In Bali, a smaller bomb inside the location caused a panic and led everyone to flee towards the exit where a larger bomb was detonated a short while after the first one).
There have been some attacks inside Israel with multiple bombers striking the same target. Generally these attacks have been the worst attacks in terms of fatalities. Some other attacks have been very well planned, leading to the bomber being able to penetrate into a location or striking an unexpected target.
Target killings of terrorist leaders removes alot of the ability to plan these things. This combined with the attacks on the infrastructure (funding, bomb-factories) are the only viable way to combat these terrorists.
Unless you are a naive fool that thinks that you can sit down and negotiate some sort of peace with the arabs that is.
Now you whine alot about how this will cause more attacks. Sure there will be more attacks, but its not as if there would have been no attacks if the Israelis had not taken out that guy.
The Israelis have been hitting Hamas very hard in the latest week...not that you or GS or any other pal supporter would know it. During the past week, five Israeli raids have pounded the Hamas ranks; in Nuseyrat, al Bureij, twice in Rafah and once in Abasan. These operations have resulted in 70 dead Hamas operatives. More importantly, these attacks have been targeting
the mid-level leadership of Hamas.
Before that, On March 14, the suicide bombing of Israel’s Mediterranean Ashdod Port that killed 10 Israelis was perceived by Hamas as a fiasco. Most probably that attack had been the result of months of intelligence work, complex pre-planning and heavy funding. The design was to strike at a hazardous materials site in the harbor, something that would have caused hundreds or even thousands of casualties. More importantly , the Hamas blew their suprise factor for a failed attack. Now, that route to cross into Israel is closed.
Right now, thanks to last weeks attacks, Hamas lacks the capability to strike outside the Gaza strip.
So you will see alot of gnashing of teeth, lots of bold words and lots of whining among western terrorist sympathisers like you and GS and thrawn and moose... meanwhile Israel is a bit safer.
Personally I think the Israelis have decided to remove the Palestinian leadership. Cut off the head, and the rest is just a (very angry) flock of frustration.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Yes Eagler, to many people hate jews and to many hate muslims....Lets leave it there, at something we can agree on.
hate some race or ethnic w/o owen experience is nice example of beeing brainwashed
No matter who do you hate.
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Originally posted by Habu
Ok moose so humour me here.
So what is your solution? Negotiations will not end anything. Appeasement will not end anything.
Why ... because Israel is to cool ??
Why do you consider those statments to be true ?
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Are you then saying it is ok to hate a whole race because of "experience?" :eek:
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Btw, two more points:
1) Israelis have issued a statement saying "no one is immune". The message is pretty clear...Arafat might very well be next.
2) Hamas has turned to Al Acqsa Martyrs Brigades in the west bank and Hezbollah in Lebanon and Al Quaeda for help in avenging the death of that guy.
Clearly Hamas has been severely weakened by the Israeli offensive.
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Dont think so Hortlund, there are plenty of guys ready to step up and fill the void after Yassin. Im not even sure if he is the brain behind the planning/details of the attacks...he was a spiritual leader wasnt he?
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
If it takes the destruction of the Arab world as we know if for them to survive, so be it.
So, it's genocide you're suggesting, is it not?
Same rhetorical trash keeps coming back. Only the location, last names, and skin color of the people involved seem to change. All these God-loving people turning into hate mongers. The terrorist ideology seems to have won, afterall...but not in my house.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
No one can stop all angry guys strapping on a bombs, looking for a target. Those attacks generally are very ineffective though.
very well said... no one can stop angry guys...... i totaly agree with you on this..
no one can stop angry isreal... i hope you agree with me on this one.
on 9/12 day after attack, i said, watch your steps, before you gonna product more psychotics ...... i has been called terrorist lover, USA hater and so on....
few simple question.
Do normal guys have reason to act as angry guys ?
(i would say no.)
Whats diferent between GUY and angry GUY ?
(guy have no reason to be angry)
Does our steps produce less angry guys or guys?
(we are almost holy, how could somebody be angry by our peacefull steps ? )
anyway i belive that most people infected by cow mad dissease is working for US administration.
edit: if attacks are ineffective, why does goverments spend so many money on "security" ? eeh
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Dont think so Hortlund, there are plenty of guys ready to step up and fill the void after Yassin. Im not even sure if he is the brain behind the planning/details of the attacks...he was a spiritual leader wasnt he?
officialy he were spiritual leader, who provided explanations of theirs acts to people and world. In the other words, he were a Big Mouth, like Bush
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
...he was a spiritual leader wasnt he?
if I hear that one more time I'm gonna puke
anyone who spews the prejudice hate assin yassin did is about as "spiritual" as my left nut
reminds me of back woods baptists preaching hate against blacks as it stated somewhere in their bible it was Gods plan to do so ...
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You are gonna hear that alot Eagler so you better have a bucket next to you desk :D
I agree with you tho, he spewed alot of crap but he was considered a spirutal leader by his followers and by his enemys so thats what he will be called. "A baptists preaching hate against blacks" is also seen as a spirtual leader to some.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
So, it's genocide you're suggesting, is it not?
Same rhetorical trash keeps coming back. Only the location, last names, and skin color of the people involved seem to change. All these God-loving people turning into hate mongers. The terrorist ideology seems to have won, afterall...but not in my house.
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm merely voicing my view of who I'd choose to win this war of attrition if it came down to a winner and a loser. I've said before that I'd rather everyone just stay off each other's back and work for something productive, but some people just see what they want to see and jump all over anything resembling an unpopular opinion.
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Ther can be no peace, w/out victory.
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Scholz!
Where've you been!
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I'm on Spring Break until monday. Not very Springy here yet, I must say.
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UAE seems like a decent place. building some interesting stuff, lost the link though
Isreal: hah! We have killed your spritual leader, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: Oh you're gonna pay for that, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: What? ****, let's blow some stuff up, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: Cram a bastard in it! Suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: Yeah? shoot some palestinians, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: How could you do that? We must retaliate, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: When will you learn? Guess we need to shell a town, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: You monsters, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: we must defend our people, attack helicopters ahoy, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: why did you do that? Suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: What? suicide bombings, what on earth are you doing that for? we don't understand, and shall respond with violence, because it will surely stop you THIS time.
Palestine: Ahah! You think you can break our will, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
I swear to f***, you'd think everyone on both sides was born without one iota of common sense.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
If only the Israels would stop sending settlers and illegally occupying the Gaza Strip
.
There not occupying the gaza strip.
But now that you mentioned it Hamas could care less about anything you just mentioned. All they want is to kill every Jew in the middle east. When that is done they will send suicide squads anywhere else they can find one.
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Originally posted by stiehl
UAE seems like a decent place. building some interesting stuff, lost the link though
Isreal: hah! We have killed your spritual leader, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: Oh you're gonna pay for that, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: What? ****, let's blow some stuff up, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: Cram a bastard in it! Suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: Yeah? shoot some palestinians, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: How could you do that? We must retaliate, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: When will you learn? Guess we need to shell a town, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: You monsters, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: we must defend our people, attack helicopters ahoy, surely that will stop you.
Palestine: why did you do that? Suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
Isreal: What? suicide bombings, what on earth are you doing that for? we don't understand, and shall respond with violence, because it will surely stop you THIS time.
Palestine: Ahah! You think you can break our will, suicide bombers away, surely that will make you leave our land.
I swear to f***, you'd think everyone on both sides was born without one iota of common sense.
I quess you where elsewhere when Burak offered Arafat 90% of what they wanted. His answer wasn't "close, let's negotiate some more". It was the Intifada and the murder of innocent people. Why? Because the Radical Islamists will never tolerate a Jewish state. You don't seem to understand that they not only want to destroy the Jews, they want an Islamic flag flying over every country in the world. Had Arafat negotiated they would have killed him. Now it looks like the Israelis are going to.
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Originally posted by Steve
Ther can be no peace, w/out victory.
There can be no Victory without peace.
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Originally posted by LAWCobra
There can be no Victory without peace.
Two in the hands is worth one in the mouth.
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Originally posted by weaselsan
I quess you where elsewhere when Burak offered Arafat 90% of what they wanted. His answer wasn't "close, let's negotiate some more". It was the Intifada and the murder of innocent people. Why? Because the Radical Islamists will never tolerate a Jewish state. You don't seem to understand that they not only want to destroy the Jews, they want an Islamic flag flying over every country in the world. Had Arafat negotiated they would have killed him. Now it looks like the Israelis are going to.
I guess you never looked at that deal. Someone posted on that earlier on this thread I think. They want an Islamic flag over every country? That's as asinine as "They hate us for our freedoms"
Those militant radicals that claim to be muslims shood be rounded up and shot. They prey on the hopeless to get them to kill themselves while they sit back with stolen aid. wonder how much arafat has in the bank...
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Two in the hands is worth one in the mouth.
Zips pants back up.
Thx:aok
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There not occupying the gaza strip
Accprding to Sharon they are. Sharon has also just about got enough support for his plan to end the occupation of Gaza and evacuate all Israeli troops and settlers.
The assasination of Yassin is almost certainly part of that plan.
I quess you where elsewhere when Burak offered Arafat 90% of what they wanted. His answer wasn't "close, let's negotiate some more". It was the Intifada and the murder of innocent people.
I must have missed that.
Barak offered Arafat 82% of the West Bank, 0% on right of return, close to 0% on Jerusalem, and 0% on water rights.
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OH those poor people of palestine......BOO HOO.
I seem to have noticed that every time israel has gone to the table and proposed peace and given concessions they really dont want to give HAMAS sends in a couple of suicide bombers....care to guess why?
HAMAS DOES NOT WANT PEACE YOU DOLTS
I know i've gotten into this thread like 5 pages too late but I'm so sick and tired of people that look at an act like this and say "that's so terrible" but turn their cheek at a suicide bomber and say "they deserved it"
Truth of the matter....if you support HAMAS you are a TERRORIST! You support blowing up woman and children just because they are jews. OH well I'm waisting my breath. People on this board would probably still want to negotiate with terrorists even after their family was blown up on a bus while on vacation. They will never learn
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I don't remember any1 saying they supported HAMAS.
Of course Hamas doesn't want peace, they'll lose their power. Of course we have tards that believe that every arab is a terrorist or knows what's going on with the terrorist's plans. Hence the whole "bomb them all" genocide=good thing people
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Two in the hands is worth one in the mouth.
I could probably write a page on everything that's been said here, but this is the gem of the thread. Capt. Pork, you have just been elevated to 'Sig Status'.
Shortly, Israel occupies territories conquered after an invasion of their country, and suffers greatly for their mistake of existing. I'm glad Hamas has declared war on the US (as their statement implied). It gives us liscense to participate in their eradication, as I'm sure we will do....if they follow up on their threat. God help us if they do, but they(and the rest of their ilk) need to be eliminated.
Not as short as I intended, but hell, that's one great sig I just got :D
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Amazing there is any debate about this. WTG terrorist lovers. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by stiehl
I don't remember any1 saying they supported HAMAS.
Of course Hamas doesn't want peace, they'll lose their power. Of course we have tards that believe that every arab is a terrorist or knows what's going on with the terrorist's plans. Hence the whole "bomb them all" genocide=good thing people
I've read through all 5 pages of this thread and people still seem to associate HAMAS with palestine. I never said bomb them all.....taking out the head of a terrorist org. is a good thing. If israel wanted to they could roll gunships down the street during his funeral and mow down about 10,000 people easily...BUT THEY DONT....if hamas had the ability they would. I just cant fathom why people still support palestine. If they wanted peace they'd take out hamas themselves.
(http://users.lmi.net/zombie/sf_rally_march_20_2004/everyone_for_palestine/118-1889_IMG.JPG)
and I'm sure they support you too...right after they blow up your buss
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(http://users.lmi.net/zombie/sf_rally_march_20_2004/palestinian_chic/118-1851_IMG.JPG)
Funny I thought the militant terrorits look was out this year
sorry GS no photoshop here....maybe next time
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Originally posted by GScholz
Many Americans would like to forget their less than honourable past, especially now in this new age of "American high-morals". Many American Indians are still struggling against the United States of America, to get some of the injustices recognised and compensated for.
yes and many of them get big fat checks once a year from their tax free casinos and free college education! Arent you EUROPEAN?????? GASP???? you mean your anscestors hands are dirty TOO????? OH MY GOD who would have thaught?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
You are funny.
Not even the pals themselves claim that they have their own country...they WANT a country and they think they have the right to their own country...but not even the most fanatical Hamas supporter claims that they have a country right now.
I think you are confusing the "right of return" with the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
For quite awhile most Palestinians didn't recognise the the sovierty of Israel and it's right to exist as a sparate nation.
For the first time, in 2003, a majority of Palestinians and a majority of Isrealis felt that each nation had a right ot exist as a nation state.
And I think that's a good sign.
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Native Americans get free college? If so then that's good. Doesn't make up for the broken treaties and stolen land but it's impossible to do that.
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Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-syria-abul-abbas,0,3394512.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines)
One more down...........
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Does anyone here know that Hamas is ALOT more than a terrorist org?
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Here's a quote from
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1080083708744&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
Those who cheer the death
of innocents can expect to
find little sympathy when
they mourn their own
This is in reference to the deaths of Israeli civilians.
curly
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Does anyone here know that Hamas is ALOT more than a terrorist org?
Sure Nilsen. OTOH, many psychopaths love animals. Just because an organization has a good trait doesn't mean its existence isn't odious and an affront to humanity.
curly
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I know Curly, was just checking to see how many knew abit more about Hamas than whats usually on the news. There are alot of people who jump into discussions without knowing more than the headlines.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Here's a quote from
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1080083708744&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
Those who cheer the death
of innocents can expect to
find little sympathy when
they mourn their own
This is in reference to the deaths of Israeli civilians.
curly
Does that apply to dead Palestinian civilians too or is there somekind of copyright ?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Amazing there is any debate about this. WTG terrorist lovers. :rolleyes:
I'm amazed too... I say let them kill each other, the quicker the better.
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Who is a terrorist lover funked1 ?
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Originally posted by Staga
Does that apply to dead Palestinian civilians too or is there somekind of copyright ?
Certainly Staga. It applies to Begin blowing up hotels killing innocent Brits, it applies to Israelis indiscriminantly killing innocent Palestinians and it certainly applies to Palestinians blowing themselves up in public places with no pretense of striking military targets.
However, Hamas (and other similar organizations) have an announced strategy of suicide bombings with no intention other than the slaughter of innocents.
I don't believe the Israelis have announced a policy of killing civilians, but Hamas certainly has.
curly
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It is not alot better when states accept more and more "colatteral" damage in the form of civilians and their homes. It looks better at first sight because its not the intended target but when it happens almost every time....
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native americans? Stolen land? sheesh.... they were not the first people ever to see the place and they were stealing it from each other long before we showed up....
We just did it better than their best thieves.... they lost.. get over it.
lazs
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yea no nato to object when we slaughtered them for land.
to bad israel cant get away with it. or do they?
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Originally posted by AKcurly
and it certainly applies to Palestinians blowing themselves up in public places with no pretense of striking military targets.
Indeed, if only they made a pretense like the Isrealis. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
Who is a terrorist lover funked1 ?
Anyone who when faced with the choice "Israel or Hamas", chooses "Hamas".
Anyone who hears that a terrorist leader was killed and thinks "bad news".
Anyone who thinks Hamas terrorism is excusable because Hamas also does some nice things.
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lol funked1 that was funny :D
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I'm not suggesting anything. I'm merely voicing my view of who I'd choose to win this war of attrition if it came down to a winner and a loser. I've said before that I'd rather everyone just stay off each other's back and work for something productive, but some people just see what they want to see and jump all over anything resembling an unpopular opinion.
Thanks for clarifying...While I agree that the destruction of Israel is not an option, it needs to be realized that war is not going to change anyone's opinion, on either side. Ancient hatred, modern weapons...
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Amazing there is any debate about this. WTG terrorist lovers.
Which means we should consider a vote for Kerry as a vote against terrorism lovers:
"What peace process, when the situation is on fire? Nobody would have imagined that matters would go this far. ... Its repercussions are unknown."
White House spokesman Scott McClellan.
"We are deeply troubled by this morning's incident in Gaza."
Official Bush administration statement.
Hopefully no one supports Hamas. However, Hamas has been a tool that has is useful to both Arafat and Sharon, neither of which seems to be very interested in really working towards a true peace involving real compromise. Here’s what Sharon’s government (Likud and partners) and Sharon himself feel about issues like the West Bank:
Likud
* In a Nutshell - secular, Zionist, right-wing party led by Ariel Sharon
* Although the party platform rules out establishing a Palestinian state, Sharon has said that he is willing to make territorial concessions for peace and willing to supports the creation of a Palestinian state.
Mafdal (Mafleget Dati Leumi - "The National Religious Party")
* In a Nutshell - modern Orthodox, Zionist
* Opposes a Palestinian state, withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza, any Palestinian autonomy in the Land of Israel, the ceding of any territory to a foreign power, and the uprooting of any settlement, but supports a separation fence that would surround Palestinian population centers
The National Union ("Ichud Leumi")
* In a Nutshell - composed of three secular parties: Yisrael Beitenu ("Israel Our Home"), Moledet ("Homeland"), and Tekuma ("Rebirth").
*Adamantly opposes a Palestinian state, calls for "transfer by agreement" to resettle Palestinian refugees in Arab countries, proposes that the Israeli government require every citizen to swear loyalty to the state and its flag, national anthem, and laws.
http://judaism.about.com/library/1_politics/elections/bl_elections2003_parties.htm
"(JP, April 11, 1994), contemplating the mere possibility that the government might uproot the Jews of Hebron. "Zionism came about first and foremost to bring us back to Jerusalem, Hebron, Shilo and Beit El. It is from these places that we came, it is about these places that we dreamt, it is these places that we yearned and prayed for during the last 2,000 years. Only if we are there can we be a free Jewish people."
http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2001JUN-JUL/junjul3.htm
It's kind of interesting that Sheikh Ahmed Yassin (he is a POS, FWIW, and he got what he deserved) would be targeted at this specific time, while Sharon is contemplating a very unpopular pull out (at least among his Government’s supporters) from Gaza:
In an apparent effort to both pressure Qureia and entice him, Sharon is likely to propose unilateral steps to improve Israeli security if no peace deal is reached. Among them: removing all 7,000 settlers from Gaza — home to more than 1 million Palestinians — and consolidating settlements in the West Bank behind a more defensible perimeter. Sharon may also repeat offers to recognize a provisional Palestinian state and dismantle the security fence if the Palestinians crack down on militant groups…
In the past few months, Sharon's popularity has plummeted — an Israeli poll last week found that 9% of Israelis view Sharon as a credible prime minister compared with 59% in August. Sharon and his family are also being questioned about multimillion-dollar loans from a South African businessman for Sharon's campaign and suspect real estate deals.
"On the Israeli side, the political map is shaking," says Ami Ayalon, former director of Israel's domestic security service and co-author of "The People's Voice," a freelance peace initiative. A petition drive in support of the proposal, which calls for Israeli evacuation of most settlements, has attracted more than 200,000 signatures. More than 60% of Israelis say they would give up most settlements in a peace deal…
Some experts are skeptical that Sharon will really withdraw. "Is this something serious or just a tactical move?" asks Edward Abington, a former U.S. diplomat in Israel who advises the Palestinians.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-12-16-sharon-usat_x.htm
Is this assassination all that different form the others? Was it a wise move for peace?
KHALIL JAHSHAN: I don't agree with the logic that was presented by mostly Israel officials today in trying to justify the decision they have taken. I believe what they have done today is illegal, it's politically not just unwise but utterly stupid. And in the long term, it's going to prove to be harmful not only to the cause of peace and stability in the region but even to Israel's interests and definitely to U.S. interests in the region and we are already beginning to see the rules of that decision.
Now Sheikh Yassin is a political leader like it or not, yes, his group was involved in terrorism in the sense that they have killed civilians for political purposes. But he's a political leader, and for the state of Israel to engage in extra-judicial assassination, I mean the hand of Israel that could reach Sheikh Yassin and kill him is the same hand that could have imprison him.
They have imprisoned him before several times, they could have arrested him and put him before a court of law and given him some due process, if indeed they have charges against him. And the logic they have used today is deficient in the sense, basically, what's good for the goose is good for the gander -- in the eyes of many Palestinians many Arabs and many Muslims the same logic applies to Sharon. What makes Sharon and other leaders in Israel think that they are immune to such action from the other side?
KHALIL JAHSHAN: Moderates have certainly been weakened and today they are definitely an endangered species. I think if there is a beneficiary to this, I think Hamas. You and I will be talking about this a year or two from now and you will see that Hamas will emerge as a result of this assassination as the number one, the premiere political movement in Palestine, should things move in a political direction. So Israel is going to, or has contributed through this action to the exactly the opposite of what its been trying to justify today.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june04/mideast_3-22.html
Could a dramatic escalation of the conflict help or hinder a peace process that might involve giving up long held Zionist beliefs? Deflect the growing bribery scandal? Bring other radical elements into the conflict and further unquestioned support for the Likud perspective among Israelis and abroad?
…The haste of the Yassin execution by Sharon the general is in stark contrast to the deliberate and ever-so-damaging slowness of Sharon the politician. Nothing, including the political threats by the extreme right, need have prevented him from starting the evacuation of the Strip in another month, after returning from Washington. There is nothing to prevent him - other than the threat to his political head - from proving the seriousness of his intentions by removing a few settlements in the West Bank at the same time.
Last week he barely escaped a no-confidence motion. This week, he went through four no-confidence motions like a hot knife through butter. Killing Yassin did that. As he says, nothing personal? Sharon the politician is capable of a lot to survive. Or, in more positive language, there should be personal, full press guards on his flanks on the way to the promise that may - or may not - be kept.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/407981.html
and,
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon gave his endorsement on Wednesday to a bill that would require the support of at least 61 Knesset members to authorize the evacuation of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip…
The left-wing parties responded in surprise to Sharon's support for the bill, which is specifically designed to thwart his disengagement plan, and reacted positively to the bill's defeat.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/408370.html
The left is growing stronger? A Ma'ariv poll this week showed in numbers what was already apparent without any poll. The Likud is down from 40 to 36 Knesset seats. Labor is stuck, Shinui weakened, Meretz has grown by a half. While the numbers aren't yet great tidings for those hoping for a change of government, the numbers show that even conservative Israelis are fed up with the three destructive years of Sharon's administration. He has driven most of the national indicators down - in the economy, the job market, poverty, Israel's international image, public confidence. Support for him personally also has been falling for some time in all the polls. As happens in many democratic societies, the public's discomfort is reason enough for the government not to be in a hurry to ask the voters what they actually think of it.
The people are tired and confused. But not stupid. Not since Barak's victory after a previous period of failed Likud leadership, have there been circumstances like these that make it possible to start considering - let's put it cautiously - the possibility of a political turnaround.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/400456.html
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
Which means we should consider a vote for Kerry as a vote against terrorism lovers:
AND a vote FOR terrorism lovers... We all know how Kerry likes to cover all angles.
Vote Kerry: Vote for and against everything at once.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
AND a vote FOR terrorism lovers... We all know how Kerry likes to cover all angles.
Vote Kerry: Vote for and against everything at once.
but you forgot about the people that are for everything....Kerry is for them as well. AND the people that are for somthing....and nothing....
remember kerry voted for somthing before he voted against nothing and somthing at the same time.
as far as everything goes he is for the people for every thing and against everything because he thaught the UN would be invovled in everything when in fact they were involved in nothing and somthing.
You get the point
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Originally posted by GScholz
Many Americans would like to forget their less than honourable past, especially now in this new age of "American high-morals". Many American Indians are still struggling against the United States of America, to get some of the injustices recognised and compensated for.
Heh, heh GScholz. You're forgetting one thing. The Americans you're talking about were to a large extent fairly new to this country. The values they learned at their parents knees were brought to our fair land almost exclusively from northern European emigrants.
In looking back at our brief history, I agree, we haved like a bunch of rapacious northern Europeans, and guess what, we were. :D
curly
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If Israel was genuine about the Peace talks then why during the first few years of the Intifada did they engage and specifically target all the moderates in the PLO organization for termination?.
You would think any chance of a successful negotiations would require moderates from both sides. Hamas back then enjoyed little support but clearly it was responsible for the majority of attacks on Isreal at that time, yet not one Hamas leader was a target.
Now Hamas has the majority support and here we are today.
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Originally posted by GScholz
You fought a war to become independent from the Europeans, primarily the United Kingdom. When that war was won you ceased to be British subjects and became Americans. Would the Indians have been slaughtered under the English as well? Who knows. One thing is a historical fact however ... the British abolished slavery in 1833. It took America more than 30 years and a civil war to follow their example.
You may want to blame everything on the Europeans and that your values were European as well. The fact of the matter is that you still mostly have European values, religion and language. You can't blame Mom and Pop Europe for your crimes. They are your crimes, no one else are to blame.
this is rich....a european calling Americans out for their "otrocities" over their brief 200+ years. Didnt your viking relatives rape pillage and plunder. Didnt the spaniards, who controled MOST of northwest, central, and south America, kill MILLIONS. I'm not saying American hands are clean, I'm saying Europeans are one to talk. Europe started colonizing the world LOOOONG befor America even existed.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Europeans have plenty of blood on their hands. However we don't need your atrocities on our hands as well ... like I said we got plenty. People like NUKE and Curly here that seem to want to blame Europeans for your behaviour makes me think you're much like the Germans who want to forget what monsters they were. You would have to go a thousand years back to find Viking atrocities, and on top of that we're not Vikings anymore. You barely have to look a hundred years back to find American atrocities against it's own population, and you're still living in much the same America with the same government. WWI ace Eddie Rickenbacker was born the same year as your army slaughtered 200-250 Indians including women and children at Wounded Knee Creek. Franklin D. Roosevelt was eight years old. We're not talking ancient history here.
What difference does it make how long ago it was. A hundered years or a thousand, no one is responsible for the crimes of their ancestors. Of course we'd be foolish to ignore history.
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Originally posted by GScholz
It's not as much a question of time as it is a question of government and the identity of the people. If the Nazi's were still in power in Germany I would still hold Germany responsible for the deaths of six million Jews.
I got news for ya, the Germans didn't voluntarily disband the Nazi party. They had a lot of external, uh, influence. How does that weigh into your equation?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Nor did your government ever disband.
There are people in every society, yes, even yours, that commit crimes or atrocities. Sometimes they go unpunished. Blame a society or government for what some did long ago if you want, I couldn't care much less.
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this thread took an unexpected turn :p
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Originally posted by GScholz
You fought a war to become independent from the Europeans, primarily the United Kingdom. When that war was won you ceased to be British subjects and became Americans. Would the Indians have been slaughtered under the English as well? Who knows. One thing is a historical fact however ... the British abolished slavery in 1833. It took America more than 30 years and a civil war to follow their example.
You may want to blame everything on the Europeans and that your values were European as well. The fact of the matter is that you still mostly have European values, religion and language. You can't blame Mom and Pop Europe for your crimes. They are your crimes, no one else are to blame.
GScholz, I didn't blame Europeans for current US policies.
I simply pointed out that we are a nation of immigrants, or from the native american pov, a nation of invaders. Our values and behavior (especially during the time you have cited) was a reflection of current European values.
Our nation was formed for many of the same reasons the Israeli nation was formed: Freedom from religious persecution and from arbitrary (orders from the crown) actions.
Israel and the US were *announced* by acts of political violence. The US became a nation by surviving the war of independence. Israel became a nation by defeating the entire Arab world (the Arabs were assisted by the Brits) in 1948.
Concerning native populations, by chance does Norway/Finland have a minority population that hasn't fared well over the past 100 years? :)
curly
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
this thread took an unexpected turn :p
Pretty predictable, if you ask me... It started on a debate of a controversial topic involving the latest events in the Arab-Israeli conflict and has now, after 260+ posts, grown to cover all related and not-so-related subjects. Happens every time.
Here're some predictions for the future of this thread.
300 posts-- Women's roles are investigated, not just in this crisis, but in all acts of oppression between ancient Egypt and today.
350-- Public Education in the US is brougt into question
400-- Colonization of the moon is brought up
425-- women's roles in the colonization of the moon
453-- Somebody with the letters LAW in front of his name makes an adament yet questionable proclaimation about Stevie Ray Vaughn--then spends at least 5 posts defending his military service record.
475-- Public education on the moon is the topic of speculation
500-- A poll is taken about who believes there's a god, prompting Saurdauker to renew his request to purchase unwanted souls.
515-- Somebody with a 2003 M3 challanges some guy, living on the other side of the atlantic, to drag race his WRX.
530-- Lazs gets a new gun, and we see pics
540-- F-15 is declared the most effective tool of war since the sharpened stick. A couple guys from Scandinavia stick up for the Su-37, prompting me to post some pics and perhaps a link to some neato aerobatics.
550-- PETA is trolled
555--Gay marriage is addressed, briefly. Everyone, save for MT and perhaps two others, agree that California is gay in every sense of the word.
560-600-- A bunch of guys call a bunch of others Nazis, again.
589-- Ripsnort hits his 15,000 post milestone with a scathing remark concerning where certain liberals can stick this year's tax refunds.
601--Thread locked.
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lol Cap'n Pork
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lol Pork...i dont doubt that for a second :D
I must point out 530 and 601 as my favs on your list for things that is guaranteed to happen.
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GS...
The joikas up north may not agree 100% with you but they were not killed :D
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Think about it GS, some of us eat joikas for dinner and that is pretty awful imo :o
Better get to bed, good night all.
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Originally posted by GScholz
You are not any better or more pure than anyone else. Your hands are as dirty or even dirtier than that of many other people around the world.
I wouldn't presume to talk for the Finns, but no ... Norway does not have a minority population that hasn't "fared well" over the past 100 years ... with the notable exception of the Jews when we were occupied by the Germans in WWII.
Never said or implied we were more pure than anyone else. Disagree about the dirtier part though. How many jews were displaced or murdered more recently there in Norway than the Native Americans you're going on about?
BTW, though my grandfather's sister denied it, my grandfather's mother looked to be full Native American in the only picture my Father had of her.
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Someone mentioned the number of palistinian children killed in this situation with Isreal. Part of the reason might be found in this article of a young palistinian suicide bomber that was caught and the bomb removed from him. Pathetic actually that those who sent him out used a child in this manner, especially a mentally challenged child.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_young_bomber
These folks must be REAL brave to use a child for this....:mad:
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Originally posted by GScholz
Europeans have plenty of blood on their hands. However we don't need your atrocities on our hands as well ... like I said we got plenty. People like NUKE and Curly here that seem to want to blame Europeans for your
I just pointed out the FACT that the Spanish, French, British and Mexicans took almost all of the Indians land, and most of it before the US even existed. That's all I said...that the Europeans took the Native American's land. I also offered proof, but I didn't see any takers.
Also, the Native Americans fought against and slaughtered each other and took each other's land as well.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
300 posts-- Women's roles are investigated, not just in this crisis, but in all acts of oppression between ancient Egypt and today.
550-- PETA is trolled
It's happening! Albeit in other posts, but what the hell!
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Norway is responsible for lutefisk, all other crimes against humanity pale in comparison.
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Please!!!! Let this thread degrade to a contest of who's drunker than who...It's what it was born to become anyway.
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I wonder why the Native Americans in Canada are never mentioned? After all, didn't the Europeans took their land as well?
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After all the years of violence. Suicide Bombings etc. One would think that both sides would realize that they've not accomplished a thing.
Logic SHOULD prevail...you'd think that someone on either or both sides would notice that nothings been accomplished. One would surmise that Hey! Maybe we oughta try something else?
Killing one another hasn't gotten either side anywhere.
They are both imho stupid idiots for continuing to raise their children in that environment.......they are reaping the harvest of what they've planted....they both are deserving of what they get.
Someone should speak out and say...let's try to bring this to resolution without killing our children. Let's give our children and ourselves a better environment in which to live.
Until the present paradigm is changed, the rule is what goes around...comes around....guess it's stupidity.
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Nilsen10:
Like it or not folks, the war on terror is in a way a popularity contest
Well, perhaps if you live in Norway it is. It gets a lot more personal if they are trying to kill YOU.
Hajo
Logic SHOULD prevail...you'd think that someone on either or both sides would notice that nothings been accomplished. One would surmise that Hey! Maybe we oughta try something else?
Logic does not exist in nature. It's a human invention and therefor relative. what seems logical to you is illogical to another. what seems logical to you NOW might not seem logical later.
Again, like I stated above, logic instantly flips and twists when the bullets are whisteling above your own head.
Saying that, I can only wish for the Palestinian leaders to strap on their bombs and walk into an Israeli goverment meeting - thus ridding us all of they existance in one swoop.
Bozon
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Originally posted by NUKE
I wonder why the Native Americans in Canada are never mentioned? After all, didn't the Europeans took their land as well?
Indeed. The proplem is that most people aren't very interested in Canada. We slide under radar, so to speak.
There's a futher problem with the issue of crimes commited in Canada under the authority of the British Empire. And the crimes commited by the Dominion of Canada as an independant nation state.
But rest assured, Canada as a nation state certainly did commit horrible attrocities against our indigeonous peoples.
Now what exactly did you wish to discuss?
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Originally posted by GScholz
I wouldn't presume to talk for the Finns, but no ... Norway does not have a minority population that hasn't "fared well" over the past 100 years ... with the notable exception of the Jews when we were occupied by the Germans in WWII.
Samis. It's not difficult to find Samis who are unhappy GScholz. Some claim systematic elimination of Sami culture and language. Some claim interference by religious authorities in the 19th century and evidently, there were a number of Samis murdered. Nothing on the scale of the North American natives, mind you.
curly
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Eagler , you are strange man
one day you protest against blood on windshield in AH2, next one you are happy beucose 8 people die during suirgical military "operation".
Originally posted by Dowding
I'd re-check your sources if I was you. The conflict has escalated over the last few years.
Year; # of Israelis killed in terror attacks
1978: 12
1979: 14
1980: 10
1981: 5
1982: 2
1983: 6
1984: 7
1985: 14
1986: 7
1987: 5
1988: 14
1989: 32
1990: 23
1991: 26
1992: 39
2000: 41
2001: 201
2002: 384
2003: 174
Yes, there really has been a decrease in the 1990s...
1.Hotel King David, 22 VII, 1946.
2. Sharafat, 7 II, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, 10 IV 1948.
4. Falameh, 2 IV, 1951.
5. Naseruddine 14 IV 1948.
6. Quibya, 14 X, 1953.
7. Carmel, 20 IV, 1948. 8. Nahalin, 28 III 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, 1 V, 1948.
10. Gaza, 28 II, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, 3 V, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, 31 V, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, V, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis, ponownie, 31 VIII 1955.
15. Az-Zaytoun, 6 V, 1948.
16. Tyberia, 11 XII, 1955.
17. Adi Araba, 13 V 1950.
18. As-Sabha, 2 XI 1955.
19. Gaza, ponownie, 5 V 1956.
20. Houssan, 25 IX, 1956.
21. Rafa, 16 VIII 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, 10 X, 1956
23. Ar-Rahwa, 12 IX 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, 29 X, 1956.
25. Gharandal, 13 IX, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip,XI1956.
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Originally posted by bozon
Saying that, I can only wish for the Palestinian leaders to strap on their bombs and walk into an Israeli goverment meeting - thus ridding us all of they existance in one swoop.
Bozon
A nice dream, get my vote.
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LOL Thrawn...You have a very good point with the lutefisk, but you also forgot aquavit..yuck! :D
I understand that it gets more personal when they try to kill you bozon but continual revenge from both sides is never gonna solve anything. I stand by my statement bozon, and that is prolly because i dont have any stong feelings for neither side in this conflict. I do however have strong feelings about the methods used both by your goverment and of course by the terrorist you have to deal with.
Everytime a bomb goes of down there bozon i think about you and hope that you and your family are ok. That does not prevent me in any way to see that there are 2 sides in this fight.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Samis. It's not difficult to find Samis who are unhappy GScholz. Some claim systematic elimination of Sami culture and language. Some claim interference by religious authorities in the 19th century and evidently, there were a number of Samis murdered. Nothing on the scale of the North American natives, mind you.
curly
Sounds strange.
Samis have been living hundreds, maybe thousands of years, in these countries with other habitants.
I Agree their culture is in danger but that's because younger samis are moving southern parts of these countries and are mixing with majority or they are just not interested to wear traditional clothes or herding reindeers.
btw I happen to know couple, one was singer in a band and she visited us on our club.
She told that some samis weren't too happy when that band made english album and those same bigots begun to insult them and criticize them.
Maybe those people who are so afraid that their language is fading away should support those who are makeing their culture known and not slander them like some frigging Farrakhan when they are trying to earn their living.
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About the native american's sub-theme of this thread, one funny thing popped up in my mind:
Some time ago in a discussion (the usual noodle contest type one), some of the (at those times called) ugly amurricans ;) guys here affirmed that, since Fermi decided to flew to U.S.A. (his wife was jew), and share the knowledge acquired with his fellows of Via Panisperma with the american scientists, he has to be considered American at all effects, and his conquers of knowledge before and later his journey must be considered american, and claimed by the ole good U. S. of A.
Almost the same kind of people (now called neo-cons) here is now arguing that the atrocities committed by the U.S. of A. government of those times against the Native Americans or American Indians, or Redskins (as you like), are to be blamed on the Europeans, no matters how many generations before they had moved in to the land of opportunity.
It's interesting this schizoid point of view, where everithing subject of pride is from good ole USA, and everything bad is "someone else's fault".
It's soooo easier.
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Originally posted by Hajo
After all the years of violence. Suicide Bombings etc. One would think that both sides would realize that they've not accomplished a thing.
Logic SHOULD prevail...you'd think that someone on either or both sides would notice that nothings been accomplished. One would surmise that Hey! Maybe we oughta try something else?
Killing one another hasn't gotten either side anywhere.
They are both imho stupid idiots for continuing to raise their children in that environment.......they are reaping the harvest of what they've planted....they both are deserving of what they get.
Someone should speak out and say...let's try to bring this to resolution without killing our children. Let's give our children and ourselves a better environment in which to live.
Until the present paradigm is changed, the rule is what goes around...comes around....guess it's stupidity.
That about sums it up.
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Re: Hajo's post, quoted by Staga:
The sad thing is that a loigic has prevailed, but it's not the logic we seem more or less to share here, is another logic, a logic in wich the human life is worth nothing, the logic of the first world war assaults for 50 meters of ground, the acceptability of 50% and more of losses for nothing.
The logic that want a war to bring running an economy.
The logic that is based on a "We OR Them" and not a "We AND Them".
Just think about the people, linked with (and sometime is the same) people in the governments (or sismilar structures), the get rich and richier with theese kind of situations, even in the little things, from the black market to the big industries.
In this kind of world, with that kind of logic, each Hamas's bombing, each Israeli's hellfire, each WTC or Madrid, each Iraq invasion is just another victory, another step for their "perfect" world.
We?
We are cannon fodder, no more than the Palestinian child, the Israel boy, the WTC worker, the Madrid commuter, the coalition soldier.
Who's next we will be ordered to hate?
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
I understand that it gets more personal when they try to kill you bozon but continual revenge from both sides is never gonna solve anything. I stand by my statement bozon, and that is prolly because i dont have any stong feelings for neither side in this conflict. I do however have strong feelings about the methods used both by your goverment and of course by the terrorist you have to deal with.
I agree with this completely.
I don't side either way.
I don't like extremists from either side.
My objections are to those that put all Palestinians in the same group, calling them all evil bastards is just BS.
I don't consider the regular joes from both sides as the problem.
The problem is the leaders on both sides, they do no seem to know the meaning of logic.
They don't seem to realize that revenge is hollow.
It will not bring back your loved ones from the cold.
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AVRO1
looks like you silenced everyone :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
AVRO1
looks like you silenced everyone :)
I think they just got tired of posting about it.
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Originally posted by ramzey
Eagler , you are strange man
one day you protest against blood on windshield in AH2, next one you are happy beucose 8 people die during suirgical military "operation".
Happy?
I am relieved a murderous rat was wiped off the face of this earth and proud of Israel for having the guts to do it
but thanks for telling me what I feel :rolleyes:
so for the interruption, back to the left and euros support for the pals and their terror ways ... mean ole Israel...
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Originally posted by Eagler
so for the interruption, back to the left and euros support for the pals and their terror ways ... mean ole Israel...
Who said anything about supporting the terrorists?
No one did, because we do not consider all of them terrorists.
Until you can make the distinction between the Palestinians civillians and the terrorists you will get this reaction from us.
When you have made the distinction, then come back and we can have a discussion.
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He is either bating or just cant understand the difference. Either way its sad.
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Maybe it's his religion.
.
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i better be careful then, religion is so whoopeeed holy to everyone :p
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Originally posted by AVRO1
Who said anything about supporting the terrorists?
No one did, because we do not consider all of them terrorists.
Until you can make the distinction between the Palestinians civillians and the terrorists you will get this reaction from us.
When you have made the distinction, then come back and we can have a discussion.
We say you are supporting the terrorists because you make excuses for terrorism, and you try to equate the Israelis to the terrorists.
Example #1:
Suicide bomber kills 15 Israeli schoolchildren.
Your response:
This is horrible and we do not support them BUT we have to try to understand why this happens yada yada.
Example #2:
Israeli AH-64 Gunship fires hellfire missile on Hamas leader, killing him, five of his bodyguards and two innocent bystanders.
Your response:
This is horrible and the Israelis will reap what they sow. They behave just like the terrorists, in fact they ARE just as bad as the terrorists. NOW do you understand why the Pals are so angry. This is all the Israelis fault.
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Life must be so simple for you Hortlund.
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Hortlund, I have never said that Israel deserved suicide bombings. What I have said is that Hamas will want revenge.
I make no excuses, I only said what it is like for Palestinians.
The problem is that extremists convince people that the only ones responsible for the situation is Israel.
After that it becomes easy to convince them to do something stupid like blowing themselves up.
The problem is extremists on both side.
A Jewish extremist killed Rabbin in 1995.
That guy is as much an idiot as Arafat and Yassin.
Those are the guys I have a problem with, not the general population of Israel or Palestine.
I do not support extremists from either side.
I support the moderates on both sides equally.
TROLL AWAY HORTY.
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Moderate Palestinians? Where?