Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Halo on March 22, 2004, 09:48:28 AM
-
With all the discussion about nukes it seems time to consider whether firebombs including napalm should be added to Aces High.
However, after reading again about napalm, phosphorous, and other incendiary weapons (plenty of material on line), I don't think I have the stomach for firebomb gameplay.
True, incendiaries were a major fact of life in WWII. So were the nuclear bombs. I'm no revisionist, but in the interests of gameplay and peace of mind I'm content with an Aces High devoid of nukes and incendiaries.
However, I'd still like to see the B-29, even though without incendiaries and nukes it would bear little relation to the way it was employed the most. Yet the Lanc was a major firebomber too, used primarily at night, but in Aces High it is mostly a daylight high explosive bomber and quite playable, so maybe the B-29 need not be too stereotyped historically either.
-
if cities are made bigger in AH2 they should at least test the idea of firebombs imo.
nukes = NAY!
firebombs = maybe.....
-
I'd be more interested in parafrags or parademos. Be great for those lo level A-20 missions.
Drano
-
Actually it would be interesting to have Napalm canisters in the CAS role for Jabos against GVs.
-
Info on Tallboy from http://home.aol.com/nukeinfo2/
The first use of the 12,000 lb bomb was on the night of June 8-9, 1944...
Info below on the GrandSlam (22,000lb bomb) from same website as Tallboy
"The first live test of a Grand Slam occurred on March 13, 1945. ... In all, 41 Grand Slams were dropped during the war."
Firebombing of Tokyo(Yokohama) from http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0310-01.htm
"...firestorm on March 10, 1945, which killed more than 100,000 civilians and razed nearly half of Tokyo in the final months of World War II.
Atomic bomb deaths (immediate casualties) at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are estimated at the high-end to be 140,000 and 70,000, respectively.
DRESDEN, GERMANY
Info below on Dresden firebombing (phosphorous) from http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm
(modified to different link from another propagandistic link. Of course, this link may be viewed as a USAF propaganda link because it infers that civilian deaths were due to RAF mis-drops on the city proper).
"on 14-15 February 1945....death to probably 25,000 persons and serious injury to probably 30,000 others"
The point of all these quotes is that not only nukes, but incendiary bombing and large bombs were fairly late-war activites. I don't think they should play a major role in any WWII flight game. If only 41 grand slams were dropped in the entire war, what should their perk value be ? Something to finally use all those bomber perks for...
Bombing towns to capture bases seems strange to me already. It just wasn't the most efficient use of military force. I don't know why it's set up that way in HT, frankly. Bombing strats like factories makes a lot more sense - and we know those are civilians working in those plants. However, I don't really care to re-enact civilian slaughter on the scale that these references document.
-
not disputing the fact that any firebombing or atomic bombing was a horrendous experience for the victims ... please consider your sources before posting them...sometimes they do you more harm than good.
Any site that calls Ernst Zundel a "political prisoner" is more wacky than a bus load of Merry Pranksters and shouldn't really be considered a "well balanced" account of anything. (http://www.rense.com) Even if it draws on Vonnegut's personal observations.
Carry on.
-
I'd rather have B25s myself.
Mud
-
Hyrax81st,
The highest number of dead caused by an air raid was the firebombing of Tokyo with about 120,000 dead.
Dresden's total was, IIRC, about 45,000.
The fact that your source uses the term "genocide" immediately discredits it as that term is used to refer to the systematic and intentional elimination of a particular ethnic group. Air raids do not count as genocide, regardless of how big a mistake they were.
I mean, I've never heard of anybody refer to the Germans practicing genocide when they bombed the defensless British city of Coventry. The only places that refer to such events with loaded terms like genocide nearly always completely ignore strikes on non-German cities such as Coventry, Warsaw and Leningrad. In short, those sources are almost always Nazi appologist sources that use the Allied bombings of German cities to try to balance the attrocity score sheet between WWII Germany and the Allies.
-
incendaries would be a great addition IMHO. drop a couple hundred (some bombers could carry 1000) over a town and let it burn down. say 5 min of burning on a building would bring the building down.
-
My fault for not carefully reading the entirety of the link. What I was really looking for was the DATE of the Dresden bombing to support the contention that firebombings were late(r) war activities...
Point taken.
I changed my original post to a USAF .mil link which quotes a more reasonable (?) casualty rate. British readers may take exception with its inferences however. If there is a better historical link to the "facts", please post it.
-
I'd rather have B25s myself.
Fly your B-26 at 75% throttle and IMAGINE your in a B-25! :D
-
Originally posted by JB73
incendaries would be a great addition IMHO. drop a couple hundred (some bombers could carry 1000) over a town and let it burn down. say 5 min of burning on a building would bring the building down.
I'd like to see that if they include the thermal updrafts that were caused by the firestorms they created
-
Flame throwing tanks. Oh ... add the Sherman.
-
Have you seen the workers in the AH factories? They're SIMS, I say burn em!
-
the open topped ground vehicles are invulnerable to bullets so why wouldn't they be invulnerable to napalm?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
the open topped ground vehicles are invulnerable to bullets so why wouldn't they be invulnerable to napalm?
lazs
Unless Im the one in the open top GV.
But then again, hell I've had tigers shot out from under me from nothing more then the machine gun fire of an M3:mad:
-
I want the heavily gunned attack versions.
75mm, hmmmmm???????
Mud
Originally posted by VWE
Fly your B-26 at 75% throttle and IMAGINE your in a B-25! :D
-
Nope.....
What we need is this!
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~heater1/grab0000.jpg)
Impact
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~heater1/grab0003.jpg)
Shockwave
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~heater1/grab0005.jpg)
Aftermath
(http://www.xs4all.nl/~heater1/grab0007.jpg)
-
I think if you really get into the nitty gritty of Napalm use In WWII you'll find the majority was used in the Pacific.
There is a reason for that.
The Japanese tended to tunnel, burrow, & build defenses into the hills were they could NOT be blasted out.
The only way to remove them was flamethrowers & napalm. Not pretty but a neccesary evil.
Do you really want to bring that to AH?
I can see the value in reenacting the good parts of WWII. The strength, courage, sacrifise shown every day.
But do we REALLY want to go down into those tunnels and have napalm dropped from overhead?
Think about what your asking for.
Is this really where you want AH to go????
-
frying gv would be a very good reason for it.
lazs
-
In a word,, yea. I like the pretty colors and screams of agony turn me on. but then again Im a sadist
:D
Originally posted by Ghosth
I think if you really get into the nitty gritty of Napalm use In WWII you'll find the majority was used in the Pacific.
There is a reason for that.
The Japanese tended to tunnel, burrow, & build defenses into the hills were they could NOT be blasted out.
The only way to remove them was flamethrowers & napalm. Not pretty but a neccesary evil.
Do you really want to bring that to AH?
I can see the value in reenacting the good parts of WWII. The strength, courage, sacrifise shown every day.
But do we REALLY want to go down into those tunnels and have napalm dropped from overhead?
Think about what your asking for.
Is this really where you want AH to go????
-
I'd like to see napalm too, but we won't.
A single canister or converted drop tank could cook everyone in a Tiger and would destroy much of its invincibility. Not that I care about it, but many do in the MA.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
In a word,, yea. I like the pretty colors and screams of agony turn me on. but then again Im a sadist
:D
I bet your one of those people that would create a family in The Sims, build a house consisting of a small room with a fireplace and lots of wicka furniture.
Then again, so was I :)
Never would delete a family, would just move them into the premature cremation lot:D
-
what we really need are these,
Big bomb on the left is a 12,000lb bomb with 75% charge to weight ratio. (same as lanc 4k bomb but 3 times the size).
Next to it on the right is a 2k bomb. behind that is a 4k bomb that we already have in AH.
The big white thing is a 1615 (uk gallon) gallon fuel tankfrom a Valiant bomber. And the behemoth behind that is a 22,000lb grand slam earthquake bomb.
We need the 12k and 22k bombs please :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1080173435_bombs.jpg)
-
Info on Tallboy (12K bomb) and Grand Slam (22K bomb) from http://home.aol.com/nukeinfo2/
The first use of the 12,000 lb bomb was on the night of June 8-9, 1944...
"The first live test of a Grand Slam occurred on March 13, 1945. ... In all, 41 Grand Slams were dropped during the war."
Should the 12k Be able to level a town ? the 22K an entire field ? Given that these beasts are fairly late war (and only 41 Grand Slams were dropped before cessation of hostilities) what would you suggest their bomber perk value should be ?
Since I have a lot of those (and hardly ever fly an Arado) I think 500 for the 12K and 1000 for the 22K would be good (grin). Of course, they would REQUIRE a Lancaster bomber to carry (or maybe... yes, maybe.... a B-29 !)
From the same website:
A B-29 with ONE Grand Slam bomb loaded
http://home.aol.com/nukeinfo2/wb29GrandSlam.jpg
A B-29 with TWO Tall Boys suspended near the wing roots
http://home.aol.com/nukeinfo2/B29withdualTallboyinstallationdetail2.jpg
-
Was that b29 with the grandslam ever used in active service in ww2?
-
incinery? bombs were used alot, i like it:aok
-
Bendover,
from the following link....
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWgrandslam.htm
"In 1945 Barnes Wallis developed the 22,000lb Grand Slam. This bomb was so heavy it could only be carried by a specially adapted Avro Lancaster. The first one was dropped on Germany on 14th March, 1945."
I think B-29 adaptation was post-war. Here are a couple of other interesting notes on Tall Boy and Grand Slams from
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/miscellaneous/tallboy/tallboy.html
Tall Boy...
"These massive bombs designed by Dr. Barnes Wallis reached the speed of sound during descent being streamlined and equipped with angled fins that produced a rapid spin. Penetrating the ground before exploding they worked by setting off shock waves that would bring down nearby structures. The 5,443 kg (12,000 lb) "Tall Boy" dropped from 6,096m (20,000 feet) made a 24 meter (80 feet) deep crater 30 meter (100 feet) across and could go through 4.88 meter 16 feet of concrete. On 8-9 June, 1944 eight Lancaster bombers of No. 617 Squadron used the deep penetration "Tall Boy" bomb in an attack against the Saumur Rail Tunnel. The new weapon proved its worth but at the cost of losing 5 of the 8 bombers on this mission. Eventually 854 Tallboy bombs were used, the most note-worthy mission resulting in the destruction of the battleship Tirpitz (77 were dropped in three attacks)."
Grand Slam...
"The "Grand Slam" (Earthquake) bomb was of the same design as the Tallboy but larger and heavier weighing 9,979 kg (22,000 lb). The Grand Slam was first used on 14 March, 1945 when a force of Lancaster bombers led by Royal Air Force Squadron Leader C.C. Calder attacked the Bielefeld railway viaduct destroying two spans. In another attack against submarine pens (Bunker Valentin) near Bremen two Grand Slams pentrated 4,5 meters of reinforced concrete. 41 Grand Slam Bombs were dropped by the end of the war mainly against bridges and viaducts. The "Grand Slam" bomb was the biggest bomb used in WWII at all."
A bomb that reached the speed of sound....heh heh... There was a great documentary that showed fairly modern testing of fuel-air bombs to cause a miniature shock wave that rippled the surrounding landscape for hundreds of feet. It was like watching a small wave about 1-2ft high of earth running out from the blast center in a concentric ring. The shock wave exploded anti-tank mines in a test field as a proof of concept for the fuel-air bomb.
-
dunno about all that but, it would be nice if tracers could ignite a dropped tank. A pair of 38s got a confirmed kill on a japanese ship with that tactic.