Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SunTracker on March 22, 2004, 01:28:59 PM
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In 1798, militia commanders in Kentucky and Virginia mobilized their troops to get the Federal Government to respect the Bill of Rights. The troops armed themselves and signed petitions against the federal government. They didn't attack anybody, just rallied for a while and protested.
I read this in my textbook.
Are these crazy survival groups in Montana and other mid-west states considered militias? What would happen if a militia tried to protest a federal law out in public today, like my state did in 1798? Can I make my own militia?
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Not anything good. See Ruby Ridge or Waco. Now both groups are extremists no doubt but it's clear the modern day Us government will not tolerate an active armed resistance of any sort.
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What would happen if a militia tried to protest a federal law out in public today, like my state did in 1798?
Himmmm? Do you remember 'Waco' and 'Ruby Ridge' ?
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No No guys
Jenet Reno Was cute and fund....
Clinton never had anything bad happen on his watch..
Jenet Reno was
Cute and fund!!!
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I thought the whole problem with Waco and Ruby Ridge was that they were using illegal weapons.
Waco probably had the most legitimacy though, except for the illegal weapons.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Not anything good. See Ruby Ridge or Waco. Now both groups are extremists no doubt but it's clear the modern day Us government will not tolerate an active armed resistance of any sort.
FYI< the FBI purposely set up Randy at Ruby Ridge, they got an undercover agent to buy a shotgun that was 1/8" undersized for min. barrel length, and the agent insisted Randy sell it to him shorter, Randy said "No" but didn't take in consideration that the saw he used to cut the barrel with, actually made the gun barrel undersized. That was used for the warrant, and you know the rest of the story.
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Sun
If you wana be shocked and dismayed go read this. acount of ruby ridge on crime library, has both Randy weavers acount and the Govs... (http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/1.html)
Shocking, and soo wrong Randy Weaver sued the feds and won.
Interesting read as well.
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Rip
It was an informant, not an agent I think...
Plus, they they arrested him on those charges, he got the paperwork on when to appear in the mail. The dates on the paper were wrong. The Judge and prosecuter new this, when he did not show up in court, (and they KNEW he had the wrong date) they issued a Federal arrest warant.
Thats when all the killing started...
I am not an antigovernment tin hat boy, but in this case they stepped way over the line and killed people for nothing..
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In 1798 were these militia heads appointed by the state? Been awhile since I studied anything remotely like this but it seems to me back when we had "official" militas they were State militias, not independant groups.
So while these millitia leaders in 1798 might have been acting independtly in this case were they not representing their respective states? Or have militias always been independant groups acting on their own accord?
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waco was another jonestown waiting to happen. If those people had nothing to fear why didnt they just turn themselves in?
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Early Americans were not fond of a standing army. Standing armies are a tool of government to threaten the people. The reason for the 2nd amendment was that in times of war the call would go out and the men would grab their guns and go fight much like during the Revolutionary War and War of Texas Independence. This was found to be impractical during the Napoleonic Wars (War of 1812 here) and later during the American Civil War. After the Civil war you see a small standing army becoming commonplace and after WW2/Korea a large army become the norm.
Early militias were local groups usually lead by local prominent citizens. It was understood that in times of peace they would train and in war time they would come under federal control.
Todays militia is legal as long as they don't avocate the overthrow of the government.
Americans enjoy freedom of speech, are able to legally keep and bear arms and peacebly assemble. This is designed to keep the people free of tyrannical government.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
waco was another jonestown waiting to happen. If those people had nothing to fear why didnt they just turn themselves in?
LOL :)
I'll quote this during your next Bush is Hitler Patriot Act rant....
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Ever read the Federalist papers?
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/fed/fedpapers.html
Concerning Militias (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/fed/fed_29.html)
For those of you who do not know
When the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention presented the draft of the US Constitution to the individual states, it needed to be ratified by popular vote within those states. There was some trepidation over the outcome of this vote in several states, the most important of which was New York. Governor Clinton was opposed to the document and NY was the most populous state. 3 of the men who helped write that Constitution; Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay, collaborated on a series of essays (Now called 'The Federalist Papers') published in the NYC newspapers, defending the new Constitution and explaining the reasoning behind some of it's precepts. They all wrote together under the pseudonym 'Publius'. It is brilliantly-argued government theory, presented by some of the best men ever to attempt the field.
But as we all know by now "original intent" means nothing thanks to activist judges. Never the less, the Federalist Papers offer great incite to the thinking of the framers of what was to become the US constitution.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Sun
If you wana be shocked and dismayed go read this. acount of ruby ridge on crime library, has both Randy weavers acount and the Govs... (http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/1.html)
Shocking, and soo wrong Randy Weaver sued the feds and won.
Interesting read as well.
Wow, I have never read the story befor..thanks.
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Pongo,
I had not either tell someone here pointed out he was not just some nut, lol.
He was always potrayed that way on the news.
Weaver was nutty, but I don't think he was really braking the law, nor if he was the responce he got was warrented. Frankly the story made me ashamed of my government, not the first and it wont be the last I am sure, but it is rare for me.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
LOL :)
I'll quote this during your next Bush is Hitler Patriot Act rant....
when have i ever done that grun? The patriot act is fine, but i see no need to renew it. It was made with a exparation date for a reason.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
FYI< the FBI purposely set up Randy at Ruby Ridge, they got an undercover agent to buy a shotgun that was 1/8" undersized for min. barrel length, and the agent insisted Randy sell it to him shorter, Randy said "No" but didn't take in consideration that the saw he used to cut the barrel with, actually made the gun barrel undersized. That was used for the warrant, and you know the rest of the story.
thats what happened, the feds wanted an informant who had acces to the ayran nations compound ( now nonexistant) so they set him up. when weaver didnt work for the feds they they charged him. and when he didn't show up at court the stand off happened. bottom line is three people died over a five dollar tax stamp (sawed off shotgun is legle if you have governments ok). later on the FBI sniper who shot weaver wife was investigated by the state of idaho for murder. but the govt. defended him by stating that federal agents are not prosecutable under state law. the sniper violated his rules of engagement orders too. weaver and david koresh didnt have any ties to the milita or patriot movements.
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The FBI sniper Should not have taken that shot.
The woman had a baby in her arms for Gods sake.
I think he should have been fired at the very least.
Yes he was just following orders but at some point there is something called common sense.
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Over the years I have watched the pattern...
When liberals are in power
they attack right wing wackos like ruby ridge and the froggies of the world say "well, if they had nothing to hide they coulda just turned themselves in"
When the right wingers are in power they arttack the lefty wackos like the SLA and the right wingers say that "well, if they had nothing to hide they coulda just turned themselves in"
depends on whose ox is being gored.
best if we just don't have too many federal police forces. None seems like a good number to start.
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Rip
It was an informant, not an agent I think...
Plus, they they arrested him on those charges, he got the paperwork on when to appear in the mail. The dates on the paper were wrong. The Judge and prosecuter new this, when he did not show up in court, (and they KNEW he had the wrong date) they issued a Federal arrest warant.
Thats when all the killing started...
I am not an antigovernment tin hat boy, but in this case they stepped way over the line and killed people for nothing..
Thanks for the rest of the story, its been awhile since I studied that case. Agree with your last sentence.
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how come when federal agents kill people.
they dont go to jail 99% of the time.
no matter what.
they are out of control and have been since 1860
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wow.. LDF and I agree on something.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
When the right wingers are in power they arttack the lefty wackos like the SLA and the right wingers say that "well, if they had nothing to hide they coulda just turned themselves in"
The LAPD did the dirty work (shooting) in bringing down the SLA, not the feds.
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Agents of the federal government used military vehicles (tanks) to inject tear gas into a closed compound which contained numerous adult civilians and dozens of children. The use of military vehicles against civilians is a violation of federal law.
The thought of what happened next should turn your stomach and, at the very least, cause you to question the motives and judgement of the officials who ordered this action.
But sacred heads never rolled in that administration.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Shuckins
You talking Waco?
Laz
What is SLA?
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Yep...I'm talking Waco.
Shuckins
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SLA = Symbionese Liberation Army
In 1982 the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution after investigating the BATF found the tactics were used then were the same as used against Weaver.
The Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution found that BATF agents regularly: "Trampled upon the Second Amendment" by chilling the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law-abiding citizens; "Offended the Fourth Amendment" by unreasonably searching and seizing private property; and "Ignored the Fifth Amendment" by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens without regard for the right to due process of law. The Subcommittee report also noted that about 75 percent of BATF gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had "neither criminal intent nor knowledge," but were "enticed by agents" into unknowing technical violations (such as that against Randy Weaver) These and other excesses led Rep. John Dingell (D-MI) in 1983 to call the BATF "a jack-booted group of fascists who are perhaps as large a danger to American society as I could pick today." - Michael Rivero
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I thought the whole problem with Waco and Ruby Ridge was that they were using illegal weapons.
Of course it takes large numbers of ATF and FBI to go after an illegal shotgun, kill a pregnant women or two, but that shotgun was 1 3/4" too short. That's illegal.
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The sniper that shot Weavers wife used really poor judgment.
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I guess thats how they do things eh. Oh well I have a barbecue to start up.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I thought the whole problem with Waco and Ruby Ridge was that they were using illegal weapons.
Waco probably had the most legitimacy though, except for the illegal weapons.
Yeah, the Child Molestation was a sure sign of legitimacy. :rolleyes:
A militia, by modern definition is the State Police. In the Old West it was a Posse. It is not any group of idiots that have guns and camo.
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The government used both the BATF and the FBI against the SLA.
Point is... the lefty regimes turn the dogs loose against right wing groups and the right wing regimes turn the dogs loose against the lefty wackos...
the one constant is.... the dogs allways over react and kill people and trample on rights. The constant is.... everyone wants the government to trample on rights so long as it is trampling on the "right" peoples/groups rights.
lazs