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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 02:10:40 AM

Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 02:10:40 AM: What about linking the downtime of fuel per example to the time the poker lived after destruction ?

ex :
Porker dive on fuel kill it and is killed 10 seconde after destruction
=> downtime is 5*10 secondes

Porker dive on fuel kill it and is killed 60 after destruction
=> downtime is 5*60 secondes

Porker dive on fuel kill it and is not killed after destruction or is killed after some amount of time (5 minutes for example).
=> downtime is 600 secondes
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: hogenbor on March 24, 2004, 05:51:08 AM: I'm not against it...
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: Kweassa on March 24, 2004, 05:55:25 AM: Seems like an interesting idea..

Ofcourse, I hope it should apply to the HQ too!! :D

"Shi*.. HQ down!"

"Quick, don't let the buff escape!!"
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 06:40:37 AM: You're right Kweassa it should apply (IMO) also to the strat.

Last night I killed some 10 milkrunner who were bombing NOE a rook fuel refinnery...

I got about 20 kills total because those milkrunner were killing themselves by dropping too low.

I don't think it's the way strat should be destroyed.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: Gloves on March 24, 2004, 07:41:13 AM: straffo,

I may be misunderstanding your math here, but it looks like the longer a porker lives, the longer he's out. If this is the case, I think they will just drop & follow the bomb in to keep from sitting out very long.

Sorry if I'm wrong!

Glove
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: lazs2 on March 24, 2004, 07:57:23 AM: Not a bad idea to make em pay but...

They will just grab peee 51's and learn to make a pass and run away.. or.. hit fields that are not defended... that will slow it down but the real problem is that porking fuel is possible.

porking fuel is just HTC's way to reward the pee 51.

lazs
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 08:09:34 AM: No problem I'm the first to admit I'm not always clear myself + I'm not a native english writer.

The longuer a porker is alive the longuer the ressource he had destroyed stay destroyed (with a maximal value).

Imagine a suicide porker he kill one fuel and get killed the donwtime of the ressource is the delta between the time of destruction and the time he got killed multiplied by a value to be determined (I use 5 in the following exemple).

Exemple 1
A suicide jabo kill fuel at 14:59:20 and get killed at 14:59:22.
Currently if I'm not mistake this ressource is unavaillable for 15 minutes.
With my proposition the ressource will be unavaillable for 2 seconde * 5 : 10 secondes

Exemple 2
A jabo kill fuel at 14:59:20 and rtb safely.
This ressource is unavaillable for 15 minutes like currently.

The purpose is to reduce the whine to an acceptable level.

The incovenient I see are the following
if it's the host who track the downtime of ressources :
It will add some workload to the host and it's perhaps not good.

if it's the FE
It will add some more network traffic to synchronise the differents FE.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 08:12:27 AM: Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Not a bad idea to make em pay but...

They will just grab peee 51's and learn to make a pass and run away.. or.. hit fields that are not defended... that will slow it down but the real problem is that porking fuel is possible.

porking fuel is just HTC's way to reward the pee 51.

lazs

I agree it's certainly what would happen but this method + some more targets will reduce the porker efficiency drastically I think.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: lazs2 on March 24, 2004, 08:56:01 AM: agreed... better than nothing.

lazs
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: Gloves on March 24, 2004, 09:12:41 AM: straffo,

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was the porker that would be unable to fly for the time limit you suggested. It now makes total sense as it's the resource that's out, not the pilot.

It's a good idea, but as you said, it has potential disadvantages on either the server or the client.

Glove
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 24, 2004, 09:19:06 AM: I disagree

I see and have seen very few true of these so called "Suicide porkers" To be a suicide porker one would pork a base then intentionally auger, or intentionally auger while diving on 1 set target
While they do exist they are generally few and far between. What normally happens is base ack will do its job and get the aircraft or someone in a field gun. Killing the attacking aircraft or Often damaging its flight controls to he point where the plane is unflyable causing the it to crash. Thus creating the illusion of a true suicider.
Orr some of the planes up at said base will chase down the porker and kill him. But thats no suicide. If it were 75% of all flights should be considered suicide flights
Most people like myself who do base strikes never intentionally auger our planes We do base strokes and then either
A- try to run away (extend)
or
B- stay and offer a fight

The single best way to stop the Base porker is to stop being so damn lazy and defend your bases better. Thing is its NOT all that difficult
The other night there were a couple Bish actually grew brains and were doing just that. and managed to either stop my mission or at least make me dump ord so as to make my strikes less effective and destructive.
Now someone's gonna whine. "But they come in at 20K and dive in before anyone can stop them"
Pure Nonsense! 75% of my strikes and most strikes I see come in at 10-15K and often under 10 K. And speaking for myself. My preferred alt for attack is around 10K. If you catch me at 20K while on a strike mission its probably cause I was AFK for a while.
What we (base porkers) do is find the crease in the enemy aircraft and ride it in. More often then not nobody even bothers to try to stop us or at least me.
You want to stop attacks. look for those creases and keep an eye on your dar. unless its down you can see us coming.
I've personally thwarted and had base porking missions totally thwarted this way.
Oh and the only reason there ARE milkrunners is cause you LET them milkrun. Stop letting them milkrun and it will no longer be a milkrun. But i doubt you will stop those from trying though you may gain a few kills and find some pretty good fights.

Personally I feel no pity for those that whine about the base porkers yet refuse to do anything more to stop it then to whine about it and demand HTC to do something about rather then do something yourselves. You deserve what you get cause you let it happen

Here's what I do. I base MY attacks on the greatest threat to my bases That is Those bases which look to be launching to attack and capture my bases.
Then I look for the crease in the defense cap and plot my course accordingly. Then I up a base in a real shallow climb, my standard ROC is usually around 1.5-2 depending on plane choice this gives me enough E to fight if I get jumped along the way and enough speed to get to where I wanna go without having to fly an hour to get there.
My targets of preference are usually in this order and really this the order of importance

1- Barracks and ack
2- Ammo, Radar or VH and ack
3-Fuel and ack

I do NOT hit fuel first as it will not stop a bombing run or a base capture inasmuch ad goons and most bombers can fly for a long long ways on only 25% fuel And if you dont get ALL the fuel you have stopped nothing

I strike barracks first to prevent basecapture and resupply to any Gvs attacking my base, or Gvs defending the base Im attacking.

Next I go to work on ammo, And radar now this stops the bombers cold. It prevents them from bombing friendly GVs on the attack and from doing large scale bombing of my base. (stops or at least slows down porkers too)
Killing local dar now only give you a darbar to go by. making my next runs even easier and gives me the ability to come back even faster

Then the VH.. the reasons are obvious I do not kill this sooner cause usually there are enough defending against the GVs to delay them while I hit 1 and 2

Last on the list is fuel. I hit fuel only If you havent learned your lesson about attacking my bases from strikes 1 and 2 then I have no choice but to ground you.

Fuel is occasionally bumped up on my list but usually only to a # 2 status and I only do that when I see hoarding. I HATE hoarders. You hoard, you loose your fuel, simple as that.
And that what happened to the Rooks at 105 last night.. But I killed troops first.

Now you know what I do. How I do it and why.
All you gotta do is stop being so lazy and stop me.
that of course is an unlikely cause most of ya are too lazy.

Question,- How many Rooks,Bish or knights does it take to fix a lightbulb?

Answer- NONE they'd all rather just sit in the dark and whine about it
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 09:37:25 AM: Wow that's a wall of text :)

Seriously i don't think it will have a impact on jabo pilot who are smart enought to survive,you and I know how and when egress.

I often dive on jabo suicide guy and kill them but often it was to late and more than often there was another suicide guy right behind waiting to die stupidly.

I don't want to make thinks difficult for jabo pilot I'm myself a jabo dweeb (I love seing things explode :D).
And the way you work a field is pretty close to mine

As I said in my second post I spend a lot of time last night protecting with a fellow pilot one strat.
I don't see any interest in getting proxy kills just because some suicide guy just don't care of their virtual lifes.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 24, 2004, 09:41:49 AM: Again I disagree. all this does is help the hoarders. why should an otherwise successful strike be penalised cause the base defences eventuallyworked? They may have worked late but they worked or because the base defenders were late to respond to a incomming threat?

This only helps the hoarders and I think even the furballer crowd has to admit that the hoarding has gotten way, way way out of control. to the point of it being rediculous And as much ruining the game and fun for some of us as fuel porking is to the furballers
I might be more agreeable to this sort of idea if they put a limit as to how many planes could be up from a given base at any given time. As it stands now and as I have stated Fuel is NOT my first target of choice. but it is however as things are now,the only effective way of stopping or at least slowing the hoarders.

Quote
Originally posted by straffo
No problem I'm the first to admit I'm not always clear myself + I'm not a native english writer.

The longuer a porker is alive the longuer the ressource he had destroyed stay destroyed (with a maximal value).

Imagine a suicide porker he kill one fuel and get killed the donwtime of the ressource is the delta between the time of destruction and the time he got killed multiplied by a value to be determined (I use 5 in the following exemple).

Exemple 1
A suicide jabo kill fuel at 14:59:20 and get killed at 14:59:22.
Currently if I'm not mistake this ressource is unavaillable for 15 minutes.
With my proposition the ressource will be unavaillable for 2 seconde * 5 : 10 secondes

Exemple 2
A jabo kill fuel at 14:59:20 and rtb safely.
This ressource is unavaillable for 15 minutes like currently.

The purpose is to reduce the whine to an acceptable level.

The incovenient I see are the following
if it's the host who track the downtime of ressources :
It will add some workload to the host and it's perhaps not good.

if it's the FE
It will add some more network traffic to synchronise the differents FE.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 24, 2004, 09:52:10 AM: Yea sometimes I get caught up in the moment. LOL

Oh yea I know how to egress but you also know that sometimes it doesnt matter how you do it. Ack or a good feild gunner manages to shred your plane anyway and uness you bail and most dont it appears that you and I are doing a suicide. especially if kilt by a manned ack where there are no tracers.
I agree Suicide runners DO exist. Dive bombing 17s and Lancs most noticably. and something REALLY needs to be done to remedy that.
But the average pilot truely intentionally suiciding is I think the exeption rather then the norm. Most like myself would rather stick around a while and fight whoever is there. But sometimes Ack scores a lucky hit on something vital and causes me to go splat. Thus creating the illusion that I was a suicider when I wasnt. Its just that the base defences worked :eek:

Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Wow that's a wall of text :)

Seriously i don't think it will have a impact on jabo pilot who are smart enought to survive,you and I know how and when egress.

I often dive on jabo suicide guy and kill them but often it was to late and more than often there was another suicide guy right behind waiting to die stupidly.

I don't want to make thinks difficult for jabo pilot I'm myself a jabo dweeb (I love seing things explode :D).
And the way you work a field is pretty close to mine

As I said in my second post I spend a lot of time last night protecting with a fellow pilot one strat.
I don't see any interest in getting proxy kills just because some suicide guy just don't care of their virtual lifes.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 24, 2004, 09:57:47 AM: 1st : what is a hoarder ?

Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Again I disagree. all this does is help the hoarders. why should an otherwise successful strike be penalised cause the base defences eventuallyworked? They may have worked late but they worked or because the base defenders were late to respond to a incomming threat?

I don't see a strike as succesfull if I don't surviver the bombing.
For me it's a waste.
Imagine the following
It can be a simple progression like Sn = 2n²

Survival Time : Target Downtime
1 seconde : 2 secondes
2 seconde : 8 secondes
3 seconde : 18 secondes
4 seconde : 32 secondes
etc ... topped at 15 minutes

The more you survive the more you have impact.

Quote
This only helps the hoarders and I think even the furballer crowd has to admit that the hoarding has gotten way, way way out of control. to the point of it being rediculous And as much ruining the game and fun for some of us as fuel porking is to the furballers
I might be more agreeable to this sort of idea if they put a limit as to how many planes could be up from a given base at any given time. As it stands now and as I have stated Fuel is NOT my first target of choice. but it is however as things are now,the only effective way of stopping or at least slowing the hoarders.

Fuel is in general not my target with exception of the contra "vulcher" mission when I'm in general alone in an area full of enemy and when the field I wanted to use is below 25%.

In such case I generaly up a Niki to kill some milkrunner and have fun seeing the complain on ch1 then I'll break their legs by killing the fuel of their base.

That's not strategic ,it's more a "if you piss me by not fighting and milkrunning I'll piss you too' :p
// edit can't count and can't manage the tag correctly today :)
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: beet1e on March 24, 2004, 10:34:13 AM: Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Question,- How many Rooks,Bish or knights does it take to fix a lightbulb?

Answer- NONE they'd all rather just sit in the dark and whine about it
ROFL! :rofl
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: Saintaw on March 24, 2004, 12:14:51 PM: OMG, Straffo has a good idea, everyone... run to your closest shelter NOW!!! :D
Title: Dreidlock has a good point...
Post by: Adogg on March 24, 2004, 01:06:28 PM: I agree suicides are annoying. Especially when on porking missions, but even these bozos aren't the problem. The real issue is base defence.

I fly as a Bishop and last night I witnessed some pretty horrific base defence. Partially that's because I'm a pretty horrific pilot, but at least I was there. So were a few others (far better pilots) who were willing to get killed in the name of base defence. Overlag, just to name one. Wegaman, to name another.

No enemy went unharassed even if we lost to superior numbers.

My point is that sometimes we are too lazy or concerned about k/d ratios to jump into a disadvantageous fight.

Someone might argue that we we're ignoring the larger picture by focusing on our small part of the front, but keeping enemy fighters tied up is a strategy as well, especially if they get stuck trying to take one base, or a series of bases then you win by using up their play time. Eventually they will log/get bored and cease the attack.

Base defence. Suicides can't get near a target if there are defenders.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: CMC Airboss on March 24, 2004, 01:21:09 PM: A point to consider:

If a legitimate non-suicide dive bomb attack ends in a death after a taking damage, they would be penalized under such a proposal. Example: Ack takes out an elevator and prevents a normal pullout from a dive.

On the other hand Lancaster, B-17, and B-26 dive bomb attacks should all be termed as suicides. Killing one's-self after dropping bombs puts you right back in the tower, ready for another mission. This effectively doubles the sortie rate and amount of ordance that can be delivered in a given time period. The loadout is not trivial, especially for the Lanc. For this ability to game the game, there should be a penalty.

MiG
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: kj714 on March 24, 2004, 01:45:48 PM: I don't think any theory that says "If you don't play my way, you don't get to play" is ever going to make it. You pay, you play, your way.
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 24, 2004, 03:14:19 PM: Try being a knight on sunday nights when rooks can have up to twice as many as the knights and bish combined And you will never ask that question again.

Hoards come in like a giant plague of locusts in almost biblical proportions. nothing can stop them and they just keep comming and comming and comming devouring everything in their path and steamrolling bases with ease reguardless of how many try to defend cause they almost always work with at least a 4-1 advantage. they usually work away from the furball crowd untill they have taken so many bases even the furballers cant avoid em. by then even that doesnt help cause most people have logged off out of disgust.

Quote
Originally posted by straffo
1st : what is a hoarder ?

I don't see a strike as succesfull if I don't surviver the bombing.
For me it's a waste.
Imagine the following
It can be a simple progression like Sn = 2n²

Survival Time : Target Downtime
1 seconde : 2 secondes
2 seconde : 8 secondes
3 seconde : 18 secondes
4 seconde : 32 secondes
etc ... topped at 15 minutes

The more you survive the more you have impact.

Fuel is in general not my target with exception of the contra "vulcher" mission when I'm in general alone in an area full of enemy and when the field I wanted to use is below 25%.

In such case I generaly up a Niki to kill some milkrunner and have fun seeing the complain on ch1 then I'll break their legs by killing the fuel of their base.

That's not strategic ,it's more a "if you piss me by not fighting and milkrunning I'll piss you too' :p
// edit can't count and can't manage the tag correctly today :) [/B]
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: dedalos on March 24, 2004, 04:39:17 PM: is HavocTM going to post in here or what?
Title: A thought about suicide porker (variable downtime)
Post by: straffo on March 25, 2004, 01:35:37 AM: Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Try being a knight on sunday nights when rooks can have up to twice as many as the knights and bish combined And you will never ask that question again.

Hoards come in like a giant plague of locusts in almost biblical proportions. nothing can stop them and they just keep comming and comming and comming devouring everything in their path and steamrolling bases with ease reguardless of how many try to defend cause they almost always work with at least a 4-1 advantage. they usually work away from the furball crowd untill they have taken so many bases even the furballers cant avoid em. by then even that doesnt help cause most people have logged off out of disgust.

Ok I understand what an hoarder is :)

Even being rook myself I've never seen the hoarder working.
Being European at the time the hoarder are up I'm either already sleeping or on the way to work