Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKcurly on March 25, 2004, 12:06:49 AM
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In reading the "WTG Israel" thread by Eagler, it's obvious that many Europeans are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
What if Hamas had managed to assassinate someone important in the Israeli government. Would you (sympathetic Europeans) post a "WTG Palestinians"?
Nah, I don't think so.
So, that asks the obvious question. Are you (sympathetic Europeans) offended by the glee exhibited by the death of Yassin?
If you find the glee offensive, why aren't you offended by suicide bombers killing children?
Don't you think (for Americans anyway) there's a connection? Anyone who deliberately kills children stops outside the pale of humanity -- they become something which should be killed. So yes, when you kill such an animal, it's a gift.
Hamas had a stated policy of killing by suicide bombers. Yassin was the head of Hamas. Ergo ...
curly
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I'm european too and I don't see anything bad in Yassin killing.
I just think it's bad tactic as it's either to much killing or not enought.
Again it's will make the emergence of a moderate palestinian party a no go.
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To many in Europe there seems to be little difference between the Palestinian Terror Groups - Hamas et al - and the current Israeli Government.
Israel once seen as a Democratic defender of human rights has had a 20 year slide into if not exactly a neo-fascist government then at least one similar to the apartheid regime of South Africa.
One side kills with suicide bombers, the other kills with sophisticated military hardware purchased on credit from the USA.
Sharon started this cycle of violence in 1982 with the killings in the refugee camps during the Lebanon invasion - he provoked the 2nd Intifada by a provocative visit to the Dome of the Rock. He wanted chaos to ensue so that his party would gain control of the Knesset.
He's like an old war dog who served his country well in '48 and '56, in '67 and in '73 but cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.
America and the Middle East would be better served by treating all players even handedly rather than allowing itself to be manipulated by Israel through lobbyists who have only the interests of Israel in mind and not those of USA.
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yep thats about it.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
In reading the "WTG Israel" thread by Eagler, it's obvious that many Europeans are sympathetic to the Palestinians.
What if Hamas had managed to assassinate someone important in the Israeli government. Would you (sympathetic Europeans) post a "WTG Palestinians"?
Nah, I don't think so.
I don't think many people who post on these boards would like to see Hamas assassinate anyone.
From your point of view Europe is biased against Israel. From our point of view the US is biased towards Israel. I'm not going to debate who's right and who's wrong. I think most people in Europe and American can agree that terrorism and murder is wrong. Many people disagree over how to combat terrorism. Exaggerating our differences to the point of causing offence achieves nothing.
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I must say I agree with everything that each of you said.
But, the deliberate targeting of children really raises my hackles.
curly
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
To many in Europe there seems to be little difference between the Palestinian Terror Groups - Hamas et al - and the current Israeli Government.
Israel once seen as a Democratic defender of human rights has had a 20 year slide into if not exactly a neo-fascist government then at least one similar to the apartheid regime of South Africa.
One side kills with suicide bombers, the other kills with sophisticated military hardware purchased on credit from the USA.
Sharon started this cycle of violence in 1982 with the killings in the refugee camps during the Lebanon invasion - he provoked the 2nd Intifada by a provocative visit to the Dome of the Rock. He wanted chaos to ensue so that his party would gain control of the Knesset.
He's like an old war dog who served his country well in '48 and '56, in '67 and in '73 but cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.
America and the Middle East would be better served by treating all players even handedly rather than allowing itself to be manipulated by Israel through lobbyists who have only the interests of Israel in mind and not those of USA.
Excellent.
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cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.
Even if your enemy's idea of peace is the complete erradication of your country and it's people?
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AKWeav, just for the sake of argument. If you saved your worst enemy's whole family (an enemy that wants to kill you) from a certain death, don't you think his opinion about you may change just a tiny little bit?
Of course this is a perfect scenario, but if both parts are willing to talk, things can improve.
Daniel
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Sharon started this cycle of violence in 1982 with the killings in the refugee camps during the Lebanon invasion - he provoked the 2nd Intifada by a provocative visit to the Dome of the Rock. He wanted chaos to ensue so that his party would gain control of the Knesset.
Actually, it was the lebanese who did the killing. But as long as you tell them that Sharon did it, they won't even question it.
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Me thinks Euro's are subject to what they see on the news, without knowing what type of media manipulation that terrorists purposely do to gain sympathy in their behalf:
Ordinary people watching the evening news now routinely see pictures of Israeli reprisals against "refugee camps." What they are not told is that these camps are the constructed sources and seedbeds of anti-Israel terrorism, and that the deliberate PLO/PA use of these camps for such criminal purpose is an example of "perfidy" in international law. In the case of calculated Palestinian placement of Arab civilians in harm's way, it is a crime that assigns full legal responsibility for Palestinian losses with the PLO and Palestinian Authority.
The PLO/PA practice of intentionally placing its terrorist forces and assets in the midst of civilian populations is unequivocally a war crime. Although it is certainly true that the Law of War is designed to protect all noncombatants from armed attack, this authoritative body of rules also makes it perfectly clear that responsibility for civilian harms must ultimately rest with the side that engages in perfidy. When IDF infantry from the Golani and Paratrooper brigades, in coordination with armored units, head into the Jenin and Balata camps to root out would-be Palestinian suicide bombers, full responsibility for resultant civilian casualties rests with Yassir Arafat.
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I think there is still a supported undercurrent from the 30's and 40's still flowing through Europe
like someone stated, all the pals would have to do is pull a Gandhi, stop the crazy suicide bombrs and the world would fall all over them and they'd get what they wanted in years instead of decades/never. The US, if needed, would force Israel to agree as it would not/could not look like a Gandhi killer
but in the meantime, many, too many are secretly happy when jews of all ages are slaughtered j as in the 30 & 40's.
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Originally posted by AKWeav
Even if your enemy's idea of peace is the complete erradication of your country and it's people?
Are you talking of Israel's wish to eradicate the Palestinian people or the Palestinians wish to eradicate the State of Israel?
I would say that the Israel as the military power in the M/E stands little chance of being eradicated by the stateless Palestinian mass.
To illustrate the point of what is possible in South Africa after 80 years of subjugation, acts of terror and torture from both sides, of government assasination squads and bombs in stations and supermarkets the two sides decided that it was better to have peace than never ending low intensity war.
It was extremely hard for both sides to accept the view of the other, to embrace enemies and stop killing, fortunately due to the actions of Mandela and De Klerk - both Nobel Peace Prize winners - the war ended.
Israel needs grasp that nettle as it did with the Camp David Accord and obtain peace by any means - as it did with Egypt.
If an Israeli government can have peace with an enemy such as Egypt after 3 wars then they make peace with the Palestinians - who are after all Israeli too - they came along with the land captured during 1967.
Look forward to another 10 years of killing - each atrocity worse as each side seeks "revenge" for the last action of the other.
Stupid waste......
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, it was the lebanese who did the killing. But as long as you tell them that Sharon did it, they won't even question it.
It were the Israelis who purposely allowed the Christian militias entrance to the camps, all too aware what would happen.
Were the SS'ers who guarded the concentration camps less responsible than those who operated the chambers and furnaces?
In the history of the Middle East there are many issues debatable to say the least, this is not one of them however...
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, it was the lebanese who did the killing. But as long as you tell them that Sharon did it, they won't even question it.
Sharon was indicted for war crimes by an international court in the Hague - I look forward to his first visit to the EU where hopefully he will be called to account for his actions.
Being Jewish and being part of a race or group that suffered terrible persecution does NOT give carte blanche to do the same to others.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think there is still a supported undercurrent from the 30's and 40's still flowing through Europe
It's more than insulting ,you still are a clueless [***]
yes it's a personnal attack.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think there is still a supported undercurrent from the 30's and 40's still flowing through Europe
like someone stated, all the pals would have to do is pull a Gandhi, stop the crazy suicide bombrs and the world would fall all over them and they'd get what they wanted in years instead of decades/never. The US, if needed, would force Israel to agree as it would not/could not look like a Gandhi killer
but in the meantime, many, too many are secretly happy when jews of all ages are slaughtered j as in the 30 & 40's.
A new low...
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
He's like an old war dog who served his country well in '48 and '56, in '67 and in '73 but cannot seem to realise that to have peace you have to sit down with your enemies and make it happen - no matter how hard it is.
You know what? That's exactly what Ehud Barak realized and subsequently tried ...
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Are you talking of Israel's wish to eradicate the Palestinian people or the Palestinians wish to eradicate the State of Israel?
Does anyone here actually think Israel's goal is to eradicate the Palestinian people? Does anyone doubt that the goal of Hamas, and the PLO is the eradication of Israel? Does the fact that most muslim nations in the reagin are openly hostile to Israel, because it is populated by jews escape some?
Most arabs despise Palestinians, but the fact that they are openly hostile to Israel buys them a pass, and support.
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Note: No ones addressed my facts and data.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I think there is still a supported undercurrent from the 30's and 40's still flowing through Europe
like someone stated, all the pals would have to do is pull a Gandhi, stop the crazy suicide bombrs and the world would fall all over them and they'd get what they wanted in years instead of decades/never. The US, if needed, would force Israel to agree as it would not/could not look like a Gandhi killer
but in the meantime, many, too many are secretly happy when jews of all ages are slaughtered j as in the 30 & 40's.
Perhaps a more enquiring mind would question why whenever anyone is critical of the actions of the State of Israel they are accused of being anti semitic - I suggest you try to work out the difference between Judaism and Zionism and let us know what you find out.
Your statement that Europeans are secretly happy that Jewish people are slaughtered would be laughable if it were not so disgusting.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Note: No ones addressed my facts and data.
Please add details of where you you copied and pasted what you call "facts and data" and perhaps somone will.
Dragging data from some site that merely corresponds with your very limited world view is not a convincing argument.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Perhaps a more enquiring mind would question why whenever anyone is critical of the actions of the State of Israel they are accused of being anti semitic
And it intrigues me too why whenever in Europe (at least it happens in Spain) somebody dares to critizice Hamas (let alone PLO or, worse, its leader) entitles himself as right wing extremist, neo nazi, or plain murderer....no further question asqued or reason given.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Please add details of where you you copied and pasted what you call "facts and data" and perhaps somone will.
Dragging data from some site that merely corresponds with your very limited world view is not a convincing argument.
Ahhh, attack the source since the data is so accurate. Nice tactic.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well, here's your source:
Professor Department of Political Science, Purdue University, Ph.D. Princeton 1971, and author of many publications dealing with Middle Eastern security issues.
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I'd argue that Israel didn't know that the Lebanese would go ape**** in the camp. I'd also argue that the Hague courts are the biggest joke in the world.
But some people have their heads so far up their tulips that they can smell fresh air again. So it won't really matter if I argue something, it won't change their view.
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"facts and data" ripsnort
"fair and balanced" fox news
"double speak" 1984
same **** different day.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
"facts and data" ripsnort
"fair and balanced" fox news
"double speak" 1984
same **** different day.
Then refute the Professors findings, instead of looking like a dried up old man . I see you come to the table empty handed...again.
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undercurrent
why would you be insulted?
there are undercurrents of hate against many groups in the US. I am not insulted when one points out that fact as I have nothing to do with such hatred
yes, I do believe there are those that are glad in Europe as well as in America when a Jewish child/person is killed - not to believe that is not to see reality
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lol you wouldent know a fact if it bit you on the ass.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
lol you wouldent know a fact if it bit you on the ass.
{To Self--read own signature, don't reply}
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Too late Rip
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Originally posted by Eagler
undercurrent
why would you be insulted?
there are undercurrents of hate against many groups in the US. I am not insulted when one points out that fact as I have nothing to do with such hatred
yes, I do believe there are those that are glad in Europe as well as in America when a Jewish child/person is killed - not to believe that is not to see reality
Cause I mistranslated "undercurrent".
I'm sorry ,please accept my apologies.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'd argue that Israel didn't know that the Lebanese would go ape**** in the camp. I'd also argue that the Hague courts are the biggest joke in the world.
But some people have their heads so far up their tulips that they can smell fresh air again. So it won't really matter if I argue something, it won't change their view.
In the ISRAELI investigation that followed the massacre it was readily accepted by both those responsible in the IDF and the politicians involved that it was obvious to all that this would happen.
And if it wasn't for the Hague, were would Milosevic be right now?
Now go read a book or something
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I believe that peace in the middle east will come some day, but it will take a very long time (if ever) before muslims accept Israel and the Jews. But it is likely to not happen at all.
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To many in Europe there seems to be little difference between the Palestinian Terror Groups - Hamas et al - and the current Israeli Government.
So sad.
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Are you talking of Israel's wish to eradicate the Palestinian people or the Palestinians wish to eradicate the State of Israel?
If Israel truly had such a wish there would be no Palestinians left on the earth.
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Sad indeed the middle east is the face of death.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, attack the source since the data is so accurate. Nice tactic.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well, here's your source:
Professor Department of Political Science, Purdue University, Ph.D. Princeton 1971, and author of many publications dealing with Middle Eastern security issues.
One presumes that the Professor has a name and that the article quoted was perhaps part of a paper? If so plse furnish the details.
Saying it was written means nothing, if you wish to have an intelligent discussion behave in an intelligent fashion rather than being so defensive.
The "data" is meaningless to anyone with any form of tertiary education - it agrees with your narrow minded view of world events and therefore to you is "accurate"
It's just the ravings of a right wing loony that another little right wing loony has copy and pasted.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
It's just the ravings of a right wing loony that another little right wing loony has copy and pasted.
So true.
h
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Personal attack instead of debate. Wow. So professional. Don't bother to debate the topic of an author of several Mid East books, just attack the messenger. hehe. Much easier to respond that way.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
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anyone sympathizing with those monsters should go to Israel and ride a bus for a year.
We'll see who they end up cheering for.
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Originally posted by straffo
Again it's will make the emergence of a moderate palestinian party a no go.
The only thing that will spark the emergence of a "moderate Palestinian Party" is the destruction of Israel.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Personal attack instead of debate. Wow. So professional. Don't bother to debate the topic of an author of several Mid East books, just attack the messenger. hehe. Much easier to respond that way.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
Do what he asks then. Post the author and the paper you moron.
h
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Originally posted by Horn
Do what he asks then. Post the author and the paper you moron.
h
Try reading the whole thread.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ahhh, attack the source since the data is so accurate. Nice tactic.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Well, here's your source:
Professor Department of Political Science, Purdue University, Ph.D. Princeton 1971, and author of many publications dealing with Middle Eastern security issues.
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(http://home.comcast.net/~ripsnort60/owned.jpg)
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
If Israel truly had such a wish there would be no Palestinians left on the earth.
Well said
Hamas targets civilian targets (buses, etc) and the world seems to sigh and accept another pointless bombing. Israel pops a leader of Hamas with a very precise missile strike that manages to take a few innocents with it too. Yet, the outrage is on Israel's actions, not hamas
Its a tiring cycle to watch on the news. Funny how many of the fellow Arab states declare the Palestinians need their own state, yet wont volunteer the turf. Its nice to rally for your friends, yet quite different if you'd have to host them.
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No the problem is one of face saving, neither side wants to "lose" so they keep klling each other....
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Here's a fact for you Ripsnort, if you can tear yourself away from your back-slapping.
The unemployment rate in the Palestinian controlled areas is 86%.
Therefore the refugee camps being a hot bed of militant recruitment is hardly a surprise is it? When people have something to live for and work towards they tend to turn away from the extremists. When the opposite is true, the radicals have the most support (the rise of Nazi Germany being an excellent example).
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Personal attack instead of debate. Wow. So professional. Don't bother to debate the topic of an author of several Mid East books, just attack the messenger. hehe. Much easier to respond that way.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
lololol you appear not to have the ability to think for yourself and resort to cutting and pasting from internet sites that correspond to your point of view.
Just point us to the site so that we can read what the Prof has to say - I don't actually understand what the big deal is - you do understand the concept of "fact" vs "opinion" don't you?
If you're asking me if I think you're not terribly bright and have too much time on your hands during working hours - yep, on both counts - you troll the net then cut and paste yr little heart out and think you're providing "facts" - lol just a silly little man who does not have the ability to think for himself.
Btw ANYONE who has the pic of a politician (any politician) as his avatar has got to be a) Totally lacking in taste b) Very, very stupid.
You should try looking at things from a different point of view - take a look here
http://forums.indigital.co.uk/id-argument?lgnF=Y
Bit too leftist for my taste so you might have to make sure you are sitting down when you read it.
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Dear Ripsnort,
Here by the way is a list of the current faculty at Purdue University of Indianapolis - can't see any experts on the M/E - Ripsnort could you please point out the author of your tract?
http://www.polisci.northwestern.edu/people/profiles.html#wolinsky
Also I don't seem to be able to find any dissertations regarding the M/E - only went back a few years though...
http://www.polisci.northwestern.edu/graduate/disser.html
Course there may be ANOTHER Purdue University PolSci dept if so could you let me have the details?
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First time for everything, I agree with Grun! :eek: :D
Daniel
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1. I belive its wrong both moraly and i know its illegal to kill anyone this way.
2. I think its discusting for Eagler to use that heading on his thread. If im not mistaken he pointed out later that he did not like sertain people cheering after 9/11. Cheering when someone dies is wrong but thats just how i was raised.
3. I think it was bad tactics by the israeli giverment, and it would be equaly bad if the terrorist wing of Hamas killed Sharon. Israel would prolly have gotten alot of support for their fight in norway if that was the case. Now the anti-israel movement is growing here (no not against jews as a people but the state of israel so save your smart remarks)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Me thinks Euro's are subject to what they see on the news, without knowing what type of media manipulation that terrorists purposely do to gain sympathy in their behalf:
Me thinks Americans are subject to what they see on the news, without knowing what type of media manipulation that Isrealis purposely do to gain sympathy in their behalf:
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quote:
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
correct me if im wrong rip, but that video they were playing on fox news was old tapes. Fox later apologized for it.
And it still did not represent 90 percent of the palistinians.
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LOL, source, link please
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Don't try to have a rational debate with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell
the difference.
Ripsnort - quote above look familiar?
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If Israel truly had such a wish there would be no Palestinians left on the earth.
If they thought they could get away with it, it would have happened already.
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Originally posted by Nilsen10
2. I think its discusting for Eagler to use that heading on his thread. If im not mistaken he pointed out later that he did not like sertain people cheering after 9/11. Cheering when someone dies is wrong but thats just how i was raised.
so you see no difference in a murderer and preacher of murder gets what is coming to him and women and children being blown to bits on a bus or in a mall... or when 3000k ppl at work are killed one sept morning .. sad, really sad
yes, in a perfect world, we would not kill each other for anything, we would lay down our lives for each other gladly .. NEWS FLASH - this isn't a perfect would and murderous scum need to be exterminated
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in principle yes..
If you are gonna pretend to be part of the civilised world than you have to live up to sertain moral standards and breaking the law by murdering someone does not seem civilised to me. You cant be civilised only when it suits you.
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In the ISRAELI investigation that followed the massacre it was readily accepted by both those responsible in the IDF and the politicians involved that it was obvious to all that this would happen.
There's that trick again. I wish everything I say automatically becomes true. Man that would make life easy.
And if it wasn't for the Hague, were would Milosevic be right now?
Lol, have you been following the trials at all? Milosevic has been mocking the entire war crime court the entire time.
I remember a time when you were in deep **** if you went to the Hague courts.