Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Cobra412 on March 28, 2004, 04:22:37 AM
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This is only one other thing I have to ask about. Is this suppose to be a simulator or a gamey game. I know with some of the newer folks an indepth flight model would be overwhelming. But even some of our seasoned veterans use gaminess( doubt that is a word) whenever they can, specifically the engine modeling.
How often is it or has it been documented that a WWII fighter pilot turned off his engines during combat purposely to gain an advantage? I highly doubt there is any but in AH many pilots use this to there advantage. Instead of using ACM to avoid an over shoot they shut there engine down. This is infact very gamey not only to myself but I'm sure alot of others.
To avoid this gaminess is it possible to model engine no starts in some way or another. We have almost every other scenario that can cause an engine to shut down. What about adding something to counter this in some way or another. This goes beyond just chopping throttles and controlling your energy to the target. Even a very slow moving target can use this to there advantage.
How about modeling random no starts while in flight if in the event the engine is shutdown. This random no start should not affect the user that forgets to switch his/her tanks and runs out of fuel killing the engine. This should only affect those who specifically push there E button to kill the engine during flight. Not sure if there should be anything else to consider on this but it is rather gamey and unfortunate folks would rather learn this than how to actually use ACM.
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You do realize that shutting off your engine is a last ditch effort and puts you at an extreme disadvantage?
If you overshoot, just nose up and gain some altitude. He's the one who's burning energy like a Hippy burning a flag at an Anti something rally.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
If you overshoot, just nose up and gain some altitude. He's the one who's burning energy like a Hippy burning a flag at an Anti something rally.
LOL!!
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Laser if you have already expected them to try to force an overshoot your going to back down too to saddle up. Therefore you will also be slow and in very close proximity. Hammering the throttle back and using rudders to saddle up just isn't enough when someone games the game like this.
Unlike others who will use realistic maneuvering, they wouldn't always have the chance of counter such an attack. One can expect certain number of possible outcomes if the contact tries to maneuver out and with that you would be able to counter enough to stay in the contacts rear hemisphere. This is ofcourse assuming the contact isn't going to do a gamey move like shut off their engine to force an over shoot.
By killing your engines your almost guaranteed to change roles and be on the giving side instead of the receiving side with no effort or skill involved. With the Quake attitude of many pilots this tactic doesn't seem to phase them much as being gamey. Granted you can back off earlier to keep this from happening to some extent.
Against another agile fighter doing this could mean you would keep from overshooting but you at the same time are allowing too much maneuvering room for them. They could then turn the tables on you because you had to be too cautious of running into a Quake pilot. Force a high deflection and reverse the fight into a flat scissors where they would have then advantage.
Theres a fine line between knowing when to shut it down(backing off the throttles) to stay saddled up against any particular fighter and their maneuvering capabilities as compared to when to shut down in the event your fighting a Quake pilot. Shutting the engine down is a way for them to compensate for lack of ACM knowledge pure and simple. If they are that desperate that they need to shut the engine off then they already screwed up in the situation they were presented with in the first place.
Ofcourse, opposed to looking deeper into the situation with some common sense and reasoning some will only present their witty comments and show sympathy for someone who do such a tactic and say it's a "last ditch effort".
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I know they did it quite a bit in WWI, it was called 'bliping' but was dangerous due to the chance of fire. I can't recall any cycling of the engines in WWII unless it was a multi-engine plane because of battle damage.
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Let the people who want to shut down their engines do it. There is no difference flying-wise between shutting down your engine and chopping the throttle. If anything, you lose MORE E by chopping the throttle as some planes have automatic prop stop (if the prop stop the plane will lose less E then if the prop goes idle and is turned around by the wind).
Using throttle to cause an overshoot can be a good tactic.
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Hmm, did someone get shot down last night?
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Wilbus that is the whole point. Folks are using the engine shut down to slow down extremely quick when someone is coming in to force the over shoot. Whether or not the get shots off after really doesn't mean anything, it's the fact they are gaming the game because they lack the skills to use ACM to avoid the oncoming bogey. Whats the point of us learning to fly our aircraft to the extreme and learning when and when not to do things? I don't have a problem if they use there throttles or surfaces to slow down quickly because it's realistic.
Dedalos frankly with your comments it sounds as if your the type to game the game aswell. Don't have anything worth while to add other than your witty comments your more than welcome to run along and play with your barbies.
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The Fact is Cobra, you slow down quicker by cutting throttle then when killing engine due to the fact that when throttle is cut, your prop is windmilling (turning due to windspeed) while if you kill the engine the prop (on most planes) is stopped and thus you lose less E and slowing down takes longer.
Those who kill their engines don't quite know what they are doing and they are both easier to stay behind and easier to kill then those who cut throttle.
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Are you completly, 100% SURE that that is the way it works in *AH*
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Almost BenDover, try it, fly idle throttle, RPM set to full (RPM is always set to full even if you idle the throttle UNLESS you manually lower the RPM which takes a few seconds). Try and glide near the ground, see how long you stay up or how far you go.
Do the same with the engine shut down (in a plane that stop the prop from spinning).
All props work as thrust (most props are "pulling" the plane, there are some that pushes the plane aswell). BUT All props also work as a breaking force, when the speed gets too high the breaking force is bigger then the pulling force which is the reason prop planes can't go supersonic.
Like I said, try it, you will notice that you glide far longer with RPM set low or engine killed then with engine on idle and RPM high.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Wilbus that is the whole point. Folks are using the engine shut down to slow down extremely quick when someone is coming in to force the over shoot. Whether or not the get shots off after really doesn't mean anything, it's the fact they are gaming the game because they lack the skills to use ACM to avoid the oncoming bogey. Whats the point of us learning to fly our aircraft to the extreme and learning when and when not to do things? I don't have a problem if they use there throttles or surfaces to slow down quickly because it's realistic.
Dedalos frankly with your comments it sounds as if your the type to game the game aswell. Don't have anything worth while to add other than your witty comments your more than welcome to run along and play with your barbies.
Yep, thats me. Gamming the game. Frankly, I never had anyone cut the engine to force an overshoot. If any body tryies that, they should be dead on the second pass. So, your pure flying got you killed. Big deal. Was the first time? Use your superior acm to avoid the overshoot. Maybe when I am done with my barbies I will show you how. Till then, quit whining please.
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Actually Dedalos I didn't get killed by it..I've only been killed once by that when Lazerus did it when I had only been flying for less than a month. I witnessed 102Jish doing it against a Bish. I change up my tactics on each and every pass. I don't always just BnZ from different angles. When I see how they are gonna react if I haven't killed them on the first pass or even the second I base my next engagement on that. Majority of the time saddling up when they least expect it. This is where I hide my real energy state enough to saddle up within D100 to D150 or less. With it being that close someone killing there engine is just enough to force an overshoot.
And not every aircraft windmills in Ah after the Engine is shutdown. I guess that fine line I talked about isn't clear enough. I'm not always the best with explaning things. I'll have to test it and see how much the real difference in the speed decrease by engine cut off or by pure throttle chopped back.
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I cant see how this creates any advantage...chopping throttle 100% will do same as cutting engine out. I'd say it's a response to others "gaming the game" by turning sound all down so they can hear other guys engine...
I'm not an engine wiz...but the airstream over prop would make restarts easy I'd think.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Actually Dedalos I didn't get killed by it..I've only been killed once by that when Lazerus did it when I had only been flying for less than a month. I witnessed 102Jish doing it against a Bish. I change up my tactics on each and every pass. I don't always just BnZ from different angles. When I see how they are gonna react if I haven't killed them on the first pass or even the second I base my next engagement on that. Majority of the time saddling up when they least expect it. This is where I hide my real energy state enough to saddle up within D100 to D150 or less. With it being that close someone killing there engine is just enough to force an overshoot.
And not every aircraft windmills in Ah after the Engine is shutdown. I guess that fine line I talked about isn't clear enough. I'm not always the best with explaning things. I'll have to test it and see how much the real difference in the speed decrease by engine cut off or by pure throttle chopped back.
I honestly don;t think the guy got eny advantage from that. This is what makes the game fun. You don;t know how the other guy is going to react when you get on his six. If you got a kill every single time it would be boring. Honestly, how many times do you think someone tried that trick on you? I thought it was funny cause HT does not do anything about real probs. Do you really think they will do something about that? :aok
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Cobra why don't you try yourself this trick ?
You will soon notice that Wilbus is right.
FYI I had a squady who used this "trick" because not having a hotas it was easier for him ... but with or without this "trick" he was still able to dispatch me easilly.
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I have noticed at times with some aircraft if I'm trying to conserve my planes damage to either the radiator or oil leaks some aircraft tend to lose airspeed rather dramatically. With this I could see how it could easily help someone in an overshoot situation. With the slightest nose over move it can take you slow and below the oncoming attacker.
As we all know negative push overs are the hardest to follow in a slashing attack. Some ride the fine line to the point of taking great risks at knowing if a plane can decelerate faster than them when attacking. I know there are great sticks out there that do this frequently. It's that slight chance you'll run into someone gaming the game in some way or another. I guess thats where it gets frustrating. It's kinda like those folks who create a violent snap roll to throw the plane in different directions. Not only is it hard to get a shot at times but they always seem to pull out right as your about to pass them. Is it coincedence that they pulled out right after, maybe, maybe not. But it all to often seems that even though the plane seems out of control the pilot is well aware of there condition and knows how to bring it out very quickly to a stable condition with guns trained on there would be attacker.
Straffo I can't see myself using this "trick". I tend to follow the more academic approach to flying. I'm more interested in learning the straight forward approach of tactics and maneuvers to get my kills as opposed to the "tricks" that aren't so realistic. I'm sure many pilots used some very drastic measures to evade getting shot down but some that are used here at times seem a bit unrealistic. In here we can just up again to fight again where as back then they didn't have that option. I may be taking the game beyond what it's original intention was but it just doesn't seem fun any other way. It gives you that feeling of actually accomplishing something to fly realistically. Especially when flying against a good pilot regardless of the outcome. Those engagements seem to hold more value than just the plain old gaggle engagements we see so much in the MA.
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Dedalos true he may not have and due to the fact I was not in the other Bishs aircraft to know what his closure rate was he may have just massively overshot. But as I stated Lazerus used this move on me about 6 months ago and it worked especially against a newer pilot. I haven't had someone try that on me since.
Dedalos as far as knowing what the other person might to I'm not sure I agree. In some instances you may not know exactly what they are going to do but there is a buffer zone you can place yourself in to react to almost anything they try. This is ofcourse if you know what you are capable of and what the other pilot and his/her airframe is capable of. More often than not if I'm closing fairly fast on a persons six depending how my AOT is I can assume with almost 75% accuracy what they might do.
This may not apply to the veteran pilots but to majority of the others. Very few would try to go to the vertical. With AOT to the slight left or right of their six you'll most likely get the break turn away from your flight path forcing the high deflection shot if you roll reverse and put you at a lag pursuit position which is what they wanted. This more often than not is the highest survival maneuver if you don't have maneuvering abilities in the vertical plane except for to the sky above. Considering most engagement any more or atleast the majority of them are below 3k we'll run into this scenario alot. The easiest counter if you expect this is to the hi yo yo or wing over. The biggest thing is assessing the situation and what escape possibilities they might have. It just seems more often than not you can get certain constant reaction from alot of pilots just by how you position yourself and how well you can hide your energy state. It's just a matter of having them react to you and you react even quicker to their maneuver. I still find that the veterans are extremely hard to predict regardless of what aircraft they fly and what you do to set them up.
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I think we agree on most points. Get behind a 190 or 109 and expect them to keep rolling creating the litle warps to throw your shots off. Get close to a slow 51 and expect them to throw the plane into a spin. I don;t like that but what can you do. One think about the vets I would say is that they are predictable on the first pass. Proly cause you dont know who you are dealing with until after the end of the fight. Everytime I engage a vet, I kind of know who they are right away based on their fist move.
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Well some 190 pilots who don't know know how to fly a 190 might do that dedalos, any 190 pilot who can actually fly the plane will use the plane without gaming the game by creating warps. As for the 109 goes, it can't even Roll warp even if you put it in a spin. The P51 can though.
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if you cant kil pilots that throw away there source of power then you are not a very good pliot
it still makes me LOL evertime i hear some body being called a dweeb on 1 for shutting ENG down
i dont understand how shutting a ENG down is gaming the game im sure it was done in real life
kind of like that 1 guy who called the ROPE-A-DOPE a unfair move
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Well some 190 pilots who don't know know how to fly a 190 might do that dedalos, any 190 pilot who can actually fly the plane will use the plane without gaming the game by creating warps. As for the 109 goes, it can't even Roll warp even if you put it in a spin. The P51 can though.
Appologies, I did not mean to say all 190 or 51 or what ever plane pilots do that. I just wanted to say that you when engaging those planes you should expect that they could do something like that and theres is nothing you can do other than accept it as part of the game.
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I don't know how long many of you guys have been around, but about a year or so ago, there was a rash of this engine shutdown manuver.
It was being used in the Dueling Ladder and/or KOTH (can't remember which). Very heated debate on the BBS, and the general concensus was that the move is incredibley gamey, yet nothing could be done about it. With the overall general concensus disapproving of it, it seemed to vanished for the most part.
Just recently a have had 2 fights where I heard the engine shutdown, and I don't care what anybody says ... shutting the engine down is like putting air-brakes on. Loss of speed is incredible whenever I have encountered it.
Whenever I hear the engine shut off, I go up. I don't care how much E I have or don't have, I still go up, cause he is definately heading towards terra firma where I can re-aquire and re-engage from an advantage.
Cutting your engine in a stall fight with a Spit V, trying to cause an overshoot, will only send you to the tower that much quicker ... :D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I don't know how long many of you guys have been around, but about a year or so ago, there was a rash of this engine shutdown manuver.
It was being used in the Dueling Ladder and/or KOTH (can't remember which). Very heated debate on the BBS, and the general concensus was that the move is incredibley gamey, yet nothing could be done about it. With the overall general concensus disapproving of it, it seemed to vanished for the most part.
Just recently a have had 2 fights where I heard the engine shutdown, and I don't care what anybody says ... shutting the engine down is like putting air-brakes on. Loss of speed is incredible whenever I have encountered it.
Whenever I hear the engine shut off, I go up. I don't care how much E I have or don't have, I still go up, cause he is definately heading towards terra firma where I can re-aquire and re-engage from an advantage.
Cutting your engine in a stall fight with a Spit V, trying to cause an overshoot, will only send you to the tower that much quicker ... :D
Yeah, like there is anything anyone can do to avoid getting killed when you get on their six . :aok
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i just want to ask
what well this whining do what are you trying to change how were you planning to fixe people shutting down there ENG?
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Simshell obviously you didn't read the whole post. Instead you'd rather sit here and claim how stupid others are for falling for such tricks. I'd suggest before you start pointing fingers you might want to check your own flying capabilities and then come back with some alternative solutions to what's being discussed.
Basically what I was looking at is ways to make pilots think twice before shutting their engines off in a dogfight. No damage= Random Engine restart errors on when E is pressed except for when the aircraft is on the ground. It's as simple as that. Take the chance of shutting off your engine but it may not start again.
I'd say add a less than 25% fuel rule into that too but not sure how that would go over either. When less than 25% fuel is present random no starts not applicable. But with this I'd think we'd be praising those who forget to check fuel status and know when to call it quits and go home.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
...Just recently a have had 2 fights where I heard the engine shutdown, and I don't care what anybody says ... shutting the engine down is like putting air-brakes on. Loss of speed is incredible whenever I have encountered it...
...and being able to turn down your plane's engine sounds enough to enable you to hear the enemy's engine being toggled is somehow less gamey??
Oh, and BTW:Midnight's engine toggle tests (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68348)
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Straffo I can't see myself using this "trick". I tend to follow the more academic approach to flying.
I've highlighted this part because it's here I see a deep difference between what you want and what is the MA.
It's a get killed or be the killer environement ,there is nothing academic we are not speaking of "ice skating" or duelling it's more use the best tool (aka ACM) to kill the other bastige in his red plane :).
Actually midnight prooved that killing your engine was not an great advantage (btw thanks for the link Furious).
Don't bother with this ,learn ,learn and learn you will soon notice how this trick is a poor man attempt at survival.
Lot of beginnner use this ,aswell as gear down and so are easy kills. But if a vet use this trick he will be hard to kill not because of this but because he is a vet !
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The relative ratio of usefuleness of just this one maneuver, engine toggle, is nill compared to the total volume of others any pilot in the MA could and should have..
Shutting off engine is less effective for bleeding E than throttling down (albeit quickly) except when you need real abrupt thrusts.. maybe to twist your plane in and out of a stall.
There was an old thread about this and HT said it was not that hard to do, not so risky, but then again it's hard to comment since it's not really worth the risk when you're airborne in RL. You could penalize too much engine toggling in AH, but there wouldn't be much difference since it is not that effective.
Since it's no big deal, it probably falls in the same category as other advanced engine management and unless it's quick to code in, it'll probably not be done till the whole engine model is redone.
btw, it's doubtful Lazerus beat you by engine toggling.
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Moot, Lazerus could beat me any day of the week so thats a mute point...But saying he did not use engine toggling to get me to overshoot is incorrect. If he is fact such a good flyer then why would he do this or even need it in the first place? All I stated is I've had it used once on me and Lazerus was the one who did it. Why use it if it doesn't work especially like Lazerus who shouldn't need it anyway or should know better that it doesn't?
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you have to understand that Lazerus is a pretty lax and lazy guy.
He used toggling because of this, knowing that just using one finger was sufficient (as opposed to mildly quick throttle movements for equal efficiency, nevermind maximum speed for much more efficiency than toggling) to save his sloth arse. That satisfies both of his interests, fight victory and minimum effort.
What I meant was, you said it yourself, it wouldn't have made a difference either way.