Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: -towd_ on December 25, 1999, 02:28:00 PM
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well seems like this bb has started to get in a rut so i figured what the hell.
this is a forum for postin you favorite way to kill a 51 (or multiples in most cases) personaly i prefer usin a 109 with the single 20 mm (hard to kill the really good ones but over confidence abounds in ufo drivers)the reason i use the 109 with 20 mm is it will acctualy out proform a ufo if you can get him in the right situation. bleed his speed and e down to nothin and get him on the deck , they have a tendency to attack at 500kn plus ( not the smart ones but they gonna get you almost no matter what) at this speed the 51 does give some consessions to physics as in the roll rate and turning speed go down to somthing less than the 109s ,this can be exploited
use the 109s best evasive. a fast roll followed by hard hard hard stick pull,throttle all the way down for the turn with luck the will attempt to stay with you and bleed some e , repeat as nessisary (carful to stay alive), a series of loops is often the best way of doin this using the rudder assisted hammerhead the 109 accels at , get um below 200 kn and you can out manuver 90% of um you usualy must get um on the deck to kill um ( nose down 1500hp? ufo gains speed like its got rocket boosters,easily out acceleratin the 2000hp 109 so they can break off any time they want.( is this right?) but if it makes a level run and you are close you got mayby 20 sec till he out runs you (this of course depends of the situation but the window of you being faster than the ufo is short, real short).
also for the 109 with single 20mm you have no convergence issues ( i set it at 600 and leave it) very much like a 38 but you must fire in close (d200and less) to get a quick kill. you have more sec of ammo than the 30mm
so you can sprayy a little ( use the 13mm alone to scare um into a turn if you can )
dont be afraid to dance the 20 mm 109 is the pure fighter and will almost turn with a spit ( hint u got to use rudder unlike spit)and will out clime anything but a ufo in a zoom ( i have seen them stall and 10 sec later do a 2k zoom clime so beware )
a note on 51s laminar wings , they are supposed to lose alot of lift at high angles of attack like those hard 10 g turns at 200 kn that has become a staple of the 51 drivers, THEY DO NOT lose much e in even these turns so dont think you have them till you are on their 6 with blood on you spinner.
hope others post on how to kill with other planes , cause the 109 is the only one i can find that had a decent chance at all.
p.s. flamers can kiss may bellybutton twice
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I just wish they fix P-51 into more realistic, or then gives equal realism for other fighters... (this excludes that another uber plane ..)
P-51D strenghts in AH, which it didnt have:
Bf109 seems to stall easier when pulling at slow speeds than P-51D (What I've heard, P-51D should be screwed with slow speeds)
Seems to climb pretty good (did not know that P-51D had 109s ability to climb)
Accerlates to 300mph quickly, faster 100 to 200mph accerlate than spitfire has. (They always said P-51D was fairly slow to accerlate, and 109 did have awesome accerlate, doesnt seem like it)
UFO turns, which even spitfire cannot do. At least I haven't seen spitfires turn in front of me full 180 degrees 500 yards off and go head on. (Never knew that P-51D turned better than spitfire when slow&low)
Well, theres my flames on P-51D modelling. (maybe its C model with 6x.50cal and D outlook?)
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Well, after a duel with -aper- <S>, I gained back confidence in 109. Maybe he can explain it better, but I will try. This experience is gathered under "enemy" handle, Hristo is too careful for such things (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Compression is 109s worst characteristic. However, it is a kind of E preserving mechanism too, IMHO. 109 won't let you do stupid moves. When flap and gear deployment limits get modeled, it might be even better. No more unrealistic slowing down to make a kill, just to find yourself low and slow for other cons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Trim tabs are enough to control high speed dives.
TnB is generally unwise, because someone else always shows up. E fight is much better choice.
If the P 51 is co-E, just watch your G meter and build up E advantage. However, too much E is not good for 109. Compression makes safe BnZ unsuitable, you have to do tight BnZ. Reversal timing is important - he must be slow, but if you wait too long he will have time to dive away. Smart P 51D will run away from any co-E 109 he sees. Its aerodynamics and weight will help it in a dive. If you try to run away from P 51, don't dive. It will catch you. You have to either flat outaccelerate it, or outclimb it.
At the merge pick up speed and go under them - fake low E state. 9 out of 10 Ponies will Split S to lead turn you. Immelmann or chandelle under low G and dictate the fight after. Many of those Ponies will try HO before they go for Split S - even better.
If they do an Immelmann, you can start shallow climb and get above them. Immediate Immelmann might put you in their guns range at HO, which they will probably take.
Some of them have favourite way to do Split S and come back up in HO. just wait up there and pounce them when they top out slow. Don't take the HO.
If you TnB, make the fight as slow as you can (IAS wise, of course). At low speed 109 really beats the UFO. Try to fight them at higher alt - low IAS, better for 109. At very low IAS 109 outrolls Pony. You can use that too.
Use 109 to sucker Ponies to climb to you. Don't get suckered in compressed dives.
Also, rudder is a great 109 quality. Some great moves can be done with it (ask aper (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)). The one you described is probably most effective, kind of vertical scissors, combined with hammerheads.
As for turning, I would not mix up P 51 high speed turns with stick forces. It should outturn 109 at high speed. Elevator was lighter at those speeds, as far as I know.
At low speed P 51D is a pretty good turner, but coordinated 109 turner can beat it. Pursuit curves are a big factor though. Still, no sign of Pony dropping out of turn and reversing when pushed too far (didn't Robert Shaw mention something like that ?).
As for P 51 FM characteristics, you already know my opinion (high AoA/low speed handling and acceleration). Seems it has automatic hammerhead maneuver programmed in, it does it better than 109 at this point. Control feeling makes it fly like a toy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). It will surely be interesting to see how it does after the FM revision.
Disclaimer: These are only my opinons, and are writen in 10 minutes.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-25-1999).]
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The P51 is overmodelled I haven't done any tests but a it's a gut feeling and it's probably the best plane to rack up kills when smartly flown but when your driving your spit and see a co-alt dot coming towards you and it turns out to be a 51 it holds less fear than a La-5, 109 or spit as the spit will still outclimb and outturn it, perhaps less comfortably than it should but in a dogfight you still hold the cards, sure it can still disengage but he can't kill you if he disengages. Isay the La 5 or 109 hold more fear mainly because of the pilots that fly them rather than then plane characteristics and of course the spit is still a better dogfighter.
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Okey, lets write down top kills per sortie/survivability planes..
1# P-51
2# Spitfire
3# Bf109
4# Fw190
5# La5
Havent managed to test out c205 or n1k2 enough to tell about them..
But in P-51 its not impossible to have +4 kills per sortie average and fast killing with nice landings...
In spitfire theres great turn and maneuverability, even with low ammo, it can rack up kills +3 per sortie very easy
Bf109 can survive good and kill pretty fine also, +2-3 average per sortie plane.
(this is with single 20mm..)
Fw190 can kill good, but also might have forced to run alot, which gives it slight minus on kills per time ratio.
Also you cannot engage as freely in 190 as in P51, 109 or spitfire
La5 worst side is its low fuel, which really messes up its kills per time/sortie ratio
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This isn't a flame, I am posting out of genuine curiosity. I've read/heard many people complain about the p51 being overmodelled. Exactly what is meant by this? How is it overmodelled relative to both its real performance and to the present performance of other planes in the arena?
Gordo
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 12-25-1999).]
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Fishu,
+3 and +4s you worried about?
What ever plane Hitech was flying 12/24/99, I saw this "Hitech kill #16 ....."
I dont care if he was vulching! All i want is that plane and ammo load out! :-)
Central
Dickweed FG
http://bombergroup.com (http://bombergroup.com)
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I fly the Uber 190a8 to kill p51s with 2 20mm cannon load out. The 190a8 is so grossly overmodeled why would anyone fly anything else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The p51 is comparable to WBs p51 but the 190 in AH just rocks. Handles great,can out turn a flea on a dogs back and laser cannons that can move mountains. You cant do this with the 190a8 in WB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Untill Tempest or Typhoon come out,i wont fly anything but the 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Typhoon: <-- Yup,waiting for grossly overmodeled Tempest & Typhoon ..
[This message has been edited by Typhoon (edited 12-25-1999).]
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Typhoon-
The dolomite fish sniffs the bait and passes on...
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Think this is a troll Dolomite? Im not so sure. As of the last few days, I've switched out my P51 for a 190 and racked up the kills. Sure its easier to stay alive in a P51 since you can flee anything but nothing lasts against a nice burst of those 190s!
Once you get in deep with the 190 its VERY hard to get out but if you use E fiting and keep your SA about ya, the 190 is QUITE formidable.
-Ding
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Ive killed 284 UFO-D,s this tour. Mostly with FW. They do get over confdent as noted above. You need a big alt advantage then hit wep and dive with all trim setting neutral. In other words haul prettythang. You dont have to sweat the compresshion problems of the 109. And you never turn fight with the things. If you got the E you can have one turn, thats it. As mentioned above, they will turn into a spit on ya.
Also and most importantly never HO with one,if you can get out of it. They have magical HO guns. the only thing that can HO with one is the Spit which also has magic HO guns.
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Nice lecture Hristo, perhaps You should make a site about this subject (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'd love to read more of it.
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Janneh, you have it all at The 109 bible (http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffs/). I am just trying to apply those rules.
One very important thing is the fuel in P 51D. If it has 50% or more fuel, it is inside reality limits. But when low on fuel, they really turn into UFOs. Just yesterday I watched them climb to me, take shots until 0 speed (!) and hammerhead back down. No spin, just perfect hammerhead, dive to pick up speed and here they were again, zooming and shoooting. I was coordinating my zoom climb with rudder, no slipping or anything, and was climbing at some 165 IAS between attacks.
I was at 50-60 % of main fuel tank in 109, and it was frightening. They confirmed they were very low on fuel.
There is also a story at ik's site, when Lawrence Thompson met Hartmann's G-14 (our G-10 is even better than G-14). See his description of P 51D high AoA and low speed handling and try to compare it to the thing we have in AH right now.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-26-1999).]
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Hristo
It's a Xmas present to you.
Here is the film of the fight you described:
ftp://ftp.diploma.ru/incoming/aper_hristo.zip (http://ftp://ftp.diploma.ru/incoming/aper_hristo.zip)
So you can see it from my FE
<Salute>
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Thanks, -aper- !
Now I know why you weren't aggressive at the end, seems I pulled lucky HO and got your engine. Whew ! I must say, it looks far worse for me on your FE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have the same fight filmed. However, it was filmed only because I forgot to switch off the recorder from an earlir sortie (some 650kb total). I can still mail it to you if you want (ICQ 33652441).
<SALUTE>
P.S.
I admit you are the most unpleasant pilot in the Arena for me, so I stay away from Knights when I see you in the roster (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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double post, sorry
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-26-1999).]
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Ohh.. forgot to add one note, those top killer planes requires one thing, good pilot.
When good pilot jumps into P51, nothing stops him and he racks up kills like nothing.
Way different in other planes.
Bf109 wouldnt be above Fw190 unless it would have good pilot...
And of course P-51s are something what I've mostly killed in Fw190, just because I see them alot more than other planes.
P-51 modelling has some weird UFO features, like accerlating, climb rate and those 180 turns in front of you, within 500 yards.
Seems like few people didnt get the point about dweebstang and its overmodel, because they havent thought that what good pilot can do with it. (yea yea, of course good pilot does this and that in Bf109 and Fw190 blahblah.. but P-51 has far less limits)
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Well If I can rack up 4 kill sorties in the Nik2j, I guess I need to check out the uber 51.
To me the most unrealistic model that I've seen is the spit. Man I've seen them pull moves that a zeke wouldn't be able do to.
All inside 500 yards with me in a niki (that should by rights outurn everything, although spit should be close)
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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I don't know what you guys are talking about.
The SPITFIRE holds the UFO title in EVERY flight sim out there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
15th Air Force
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Eliptical wings = excellent energy retention
Thats a fact of physics not flight sims (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ghosth: i dont think you do enough 4 kill sorties to keep 'kills per sortie' ratio above 4.
Also, compare of n1k2 and zeke is like compare of elephant and mouse.
N1K2 has alot more weight than zeke.
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Fishu sez:
>>Seems like few people didnt get the point about dweebstang and its overmodel, because they havent thought that what good pilot can do with it. (yea yea, of course good pilot does this and that in Bf109 and Fw190 blahblah.. but P-51 has far less limits)<<<
(hang looks around) WHAAAT?? The P51 in yer book should be modeled as harder to fly than 109 or 190?? When it wasn't? WHAT KINDA HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE YOU WANT? You want LW AC types that have been aknowleded as EXPERTS airplanes to be as easy to fly as a piper cub??
"well; mom bought me the guitar I wanted.. but it's too hard to learn how ta play; so the hell with it" Sound familar?
I ran up against Daniko in a FW the other night. And I barely escaped with my skin. There's somebody who LEARNED TA PLAY HIS GUITAR! He invested the time, did his homework (not squeaked.. he FLIES) and comes to the arena VERY WELL EQUIPPED to fly his plane to its complete limits. He eats Mustangs fer breakfast; hunts them almost exclusively, fears not one soul flying one and he does it flyin the "undermodeled FW" and to my knowledge has only lost ONE level engagement against a Mustang. (and is no doubt laffin his bellybutton off at yah right now)
A WELL flown 109 or 190 will tear a novice flown P51 to shreds in seconds. Only an experienced P51 driver can counter it.. and kill it effectively. And THAT is the way it was; and the way it IS.
Humph!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Thought I'd post a few statistics from the kill board. These are each aircraft's kill to death ratio, ranked from best to worst. Interpret them as you will.
190: 1.358 (13036k to 9600d)
La5: 1.344 (4551k to 3387d)
N1K: 1.305 (13946k to 10684d)
P51: 1.129 (24779k to 219541d)
Spit: 1.028 (20615k to 20061d)
109: 0.858 (5343k to 6226d)
F4u: 0.768 (3114k to 4056d)
c205: 0.722 (2126k to 2944d)
Gordo
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Hang: quit exaggerate this, will you?
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Lance: those numbers doesn't tell the truth.
There is also visible popularity of spitfire and p51, which tells clearly that many newbies are using them and dying in them alot, which makes their ratio go down..
If you see scores like ypsilon or mitsu, youll see what spitfire/p51 does, though, ypsilon and mitsu usually seems to go get those easy kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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>Hang: quit exaggerate this, will you?
Hang: quit clouding this issue with facts, will you?
G,D,R...
Wab
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Hangtime, P 51D should be harder to fly at low speeds than 109. Things should get even worse if P 51D puts his nose up at those speeds. I think nobody disagrees on this.
Now I remember Pyro said that different airfoils aren't modeled yet (sorry if I missunderstood this, Pyro). That might translate into a serious P 51D disadvantage not modeled yet in AH : poor low speed high AoA handling. Most likely our 190A-8 benefits from this too, as it performs different than in the other sim.
On the other hand, 109 (the Levitating Gustav, as you refer) should excel at levitation tricks. Its wings are far more suited for climbing and low speed flight than the ones of P 51D. It is also substantially lighter than P 51D, and its engine is considerably more powerfull. It should hang there, waiting for your P 51D to drop.
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Killing P51's in the F4U only needs you to get them slow.. punch your flaps and you can turn with them forever in the F4... if he runs you're toast thou (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
What i don't quite get how folks can rack up such a high kill number with the P51 and not with the F4U even thou they have the same armament and ammo load...
P51 experten: what convergenze do you use ?
And HOW THE HECK do you actually HIT your targets ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Phil "SC-Duckwing6"
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Ask yourself this. When was the last time you saw a P51 try to avoid an HO. Unless your in a p51 yourself, or maby a spit. I cant remember ever seeing a UFO-D pilot try to avoid an HO with me.
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TT, one of the truest statements I have seen about the Pony (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Vast majority of them goes HO HO HO (Santa time ?)
However, I don't think it is wrong. P 51's guns have some qualities other guns dont have. Here's my opinion:
Real life :
1. range - far greater effective range (this is closely related to 2. and 3., as well as round type)
2. trajectory - superior to all other guns
3. dispersion - Hog beats P 51 here, but only slightly
4. dense fire - even if you miss with first rounds, you will surely connect by walking the rounds in
5. gun happiness - 6 .50 cals produce greatest fireworks of tracers, all bright and shiny; not a factor to be discounted (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AH:
1. lag - even if you are in 4 20mm 190, you won't survive HO, it takes time for the damage packet being sent to the opponent; usually you both die - he gets mortally wounded by few cannon shells, while your plane sucked hundreds of .50 cals
2. range indicators - well, helps both jousters
So, I'd avoid any HO with P 51D, unless it is my last option or I need to get out fast. Then it might be wise to roll 90 degrees to his wings, because .50 cals hit fusleage at convergence point only, while wings suffer at all other ranges. You just might get lucky and his bullets paint an X around you, while you hit with nose guns of 109.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-27-1999).]
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Hristo: did you say that .50 caliber round has better effective distance?
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If you consider dispersion, shape of the round, barrell length, muzzle velocity, aerodynamic profile, number of guns, rate of fire, etc etc, yes, I think it does.
I would gladly be wrong though.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-27-1999).]
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Hristo: from my sources and also about posts i've read, cannons are more effective after certain range...
You could compare it to 155mm field artilery gun and 20mm auto cannon, which you think travels longer distance?
155mm shell can travel over tens of kilometers, when 20mm auto cannon lose its effect before 10 kilometer.
So, what we have here, is 12.7mm bullet versus 20mm bullet with more weight, which keeps it going for longer time, it also has more punch / single hit.
30mm MK-108 packs a little velocity from gun, but it travels far also, while packing more punch than 20mm.
Unfortunately all guns except B-17 guns in WB seem to be restricted to 1000 yards maximum, like in warbirds, which is totally wrong, gives some advantage for .50 caliber
There was one great post in some of the news group about these bullet ranges..
But well, you could also test this by yourself, try throw a little stone further than some bigger stone (not that big that you cant throw it effectively (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Theres more mass for bigger stone, which will help it go longer distances.
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...inertia, in short (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Easiest wat...just find the UFO-D I'm flying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I started flying LW, just to get a different perspective on repeated flaming death. But I'm having fun, dammit! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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Ok, I can handle being a 51 uberdweeb, but all 51's HO is taking it too far. I can't speak for all, only myself, and I don't HO.
Camel
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Hristo! Thanks fer the observations.. I agree with your comments for the most part; but may have something to add here... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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HRISTO: Hangtime, P 51D should be harder to fly at low speeds than 109. Things should get even worse if P 51D puts his nose up at those speeds. I think nobody disagrees on this.
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Certainly.. it's laminar airfoil (semi-symmetrical)is optimised for higher alts and speeds. However; weight comparisons alone don't tell the tale in the turnfights; wingloading does. The 109 sported a smaller wing; and I belive when you factor the larger wing and weight of the P51 against the smaller wings and lighter weight of the 109 the performance will remain similar.. till yah pump in that HP avail for power to weight. The 109 had the brute HP and could go up like gangbusters. This gave it the edge in the turnfights. I see the 109 in AH as having the edge at low speeds on the deck here too.. the smart 109 drivers just go to verticals and my goose gets cooked. Only if they manuver in the horizontal do I have a chance.. and that's all I need. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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HRISTO: Now I remember Pyro said that different airfoils aren't modeled yet (sorry if I missunderstood this, Pyro). That might translate into a serious P 51D disadvantage not modeled yet in AH : poor low speed high AoA handling. Most likely our 190A-8 benefits from this too, as it performs different than in the other sim.
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Ahhh yes.. till yah flap that laminar airfoil! You may have noticed that flaps don't do much here but slow the plane. I can't comment on how the 109 reacts to flap but I can assure you it does nothing for the turn performance of the P51 as currently modeled. With a laminar airfoil at high AOA lift degrades very rapidly. To correct this; some flap is all thats required. (essentialy restoring the lift) The higher the desired AOA; the more flap. Note the many flap settings avail to the P51.. and now yah know why. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I look forward to the airfoil/flap modeling improvements... I'll be able to use em to great effect in the tight high AOA turn fights at the appropriate times; unlike now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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HRISTO: On the other hand, 109 (the Levitating Gustav, as you refer) should excel at levitation tricks. Its wings are far more suited for climbing and low speed flight than the ones of P 51D. It is also substantially lighter than P 51D, and its engine is considerably more powerfull. It should hang there, waiting for your P 51D to drop.
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Allow me to apologise.. that wuz a poorly chosen remark in an attempt to point out that the Gustav as currently modeled is not helpless in the presence of the P51D. I EXPECT the Gustav's power to weight advantage to be modeled; and without extensive experience in it's cockpit, and based on adversary observation; it CERTAINLY has those abilities. In spades (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The Mustangs HP just can't compete there; and it doesn't. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The Gustav as currently modeled easily outclimbs my P51D every time the pilot choses to do so. (assuming he killed my E before he tries it) I'm also confident that my willingness to engage a 109 in a turnfight will be somewhat diminished as the airfoil improvements show up; and I agree that the 109 and 190 should benefit MORE than the laminar modeled P51.. till the fight gets higher. At alt and speed I expect the Mustang to turn BETTER. On the deck, the pilots of the LW planes should learn to fight verticaly instead of horizontally; or they will continue to suffer at the hands of experienced stang drivers.
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Ask yourself this. When was the
last time you saw a P51 try to avoid an HO. Unless your in a p51 yourself, or maby a spit. I cant remember ever seeing a UFO-D pilot try to avoid an HO with me.
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LOL.. well I guess I'm an HO dweeb. I've done it enuff ta qualify fer the mantle. But consider.. every two circle fight is another HO oppertunity! Are we talking about these kinds of low aspect closures or the straight ahead run right in gunnin HO's?
I guess I can dodge some of the onus by stating that for the most part the straight ahead drive right in HO is the fastest way ta kill a threat to the buffs when I'm escortin; and, sadly; it almost always comes at the price of my plane at least. And frankly in these circumstances, most often the attacker is himself HO'in the buff, lol! I can't recall more than a few occaisons where I've come out of an HO with an engine... but it does decimate the opponet but quick if the need arises. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In a plane v plane merge I tend ta dodge the HO, particularly against LW AC.. unless I'm outnumbered, I'll opt to dodge and go for the angles. The rate of fire against those kannonen and MG's just plain overwhelms me, at best I'll catch a porked engine.. worst; instant death. I'd rather optimise my angles after the merge than to slug it out nose ta nose with an FW on the first pass. Sometimes, if the other guy is just roarin down on me, angles locked and I'm gonna catch it no matter what.. well; hell; I'll angle on up and in and give him a piece of americana as a parting comment. No good deed ever goes unpunished. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Niki's and spits have awfly weak wings.. and I'll trade my chances of gettin the angles on these nimble guys for an HO when I'm outta e and meat for the table already. So; yah, if they're wadin inta the fight grinnin like idiots I'll take a crack at em HO any old day when I have NO chance or gettin into his 6.
Sorry.. but damn; the angles kings shred like paper when they cross my convergence in a shallow HO off a two circle merge. Of course; should they land even one cannon round on me; I'm porked.. but hell; I'm cooked if he gets around too; so you gotta crank the rounds in while yah got the chance... all things being equal; I'd rather go fer the angles and saddle up. Wrestle me to the mat; and I'll do what I gotta ta get the other guy; and if itsa HO itsa HO. I don't expect the other guy ta NOT fire.. he's gotta do whut he's gotta do, too.
Finally.. everyone commin to an HO situation has a choice.. go for angles or for the fast draw.. and a quick draw against any MG equipped plane is a poor choice; second only to goin against the FW itself. So I guess yah can dodge and take yer chances with me on the turn. Muahhahhaaaa.. Ultimate Chicken, Wanna play? You'll have ta pay. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
*sigh* (hang hangs head in shame) "Hi.. my names Hangtime; and I have an HO problem"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 12-28-1999).]
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TOWD; My most excellent advesary, killer of Mustangs, reminder to us all of our poor taste in planes; may I give you the gift that you request...
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>> hope others post on how to kill with other planes <<
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HOW TO KILL A MUSTANG using ANY Fighter:
Kill His 'E'. thats all.. that's it.. nothing else required.
Detail?? Ok, he can't outclimb u from low e state unless yer porked with fuel. So get him to a lower E state than u by lettin him turn on yah. Carry tanks, but dump em and retrim BEFORE engagement. (I cant TELL yah how many fuel tank totin FW's I've hosed down.. jeeeze) If yah have SOME skills in yer plane you can stay outta his guns while yah drag him round and round. Remember to dodge.. maintaining a steady direction of travel fer even a few seconds while he's closin angles will get yah pinged. Oh.. and assume yah can take some pings.. it's only a feeble .50 tappin yah. (unless yer in a kite)
Anyhow.. I digress. Kill his 'E'. If he decides ta play with yah, and he foolishly hops on the hook and decides to go to circles; (instead of stayin high and pounding yer poor bellybutton from the perch) well; now yah got him. Yer gonna steal his e, then yer gonna climb; then YOU can get on the perch, and come down and kill HIM.
Of course if this happy little scenario ain't on the deck at this point; the witless airman Pony Pilot will look up at you.. say "Ahhhhhhhh.. Fudge" and dive into the hole, weppin and rollin fer his precious "e" desperate ta get the hell out of Dodge on a 5k extension. (Nice ta have the top speed card) If the fight IS on the deck; depending on when and where he bolted you can be in the gravy or in on a long tail chase. HINT: Don't let the P51 inta a 2 circle fight down low.
And if yah let me get away; I'll probably come back and kill yah. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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>>cause the 109 is the only one i can find that had a decent chance at all.<<
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.. towd, I really don't think so... about the 109 bein the only plane that has a chance, I mean. I've been worked over by specalists in all the plane types, and I honestly think that ANY of these planes flown by pilots as skilled as you are in the 109 can certainly kill a stang handily in a one on one engagement, all other things being equal. For my part as a Mustang Pilot, I try like hell to make sure the engagement ain't equal.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) When caught at a disadvantage I get the biggest part of my edge back by flying the plane VERY aggresivly, just like you do. So again.. the strenghts and weaknesses of pilots and the circumstances of the combat wreak more havoc on the results than the A/C..
Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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p.s. flamers can kiss may bellybutton twice
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Kiss;Kiss yah bum. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Hangtime,
"Niki's and spits have awfly weak wings.. and I'll trade my chances of gettin the angles on these nimble guys for an HO when I'm outta e and meat for the table already. So; yah, if they're wadin inta the fight grinnin like idiots I'll take a crack at em HO any old day when I have NO chance or gettin into his 6."
Spitfries didn't have too tough wings in real life either.. from that what I know, pulling too many Gs might cause structucal failure on wings and even rip wings out. (yes yes, all planes does, but how easily, thats the matter)
I keep N1K2 quite tuff plane for japanese, sometimes they don't go down from that what P-51 dies already twice at least.
Few times wondered how the N1K which I just shot up, still is flying and killing.
If some wings are weak, I say those wings belongs to F4u, those rips off fairly easy for fighter which I thought were heavily armoured (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
About getting into 6, you do make your chances to get into 6.
HO sure doesn't help your chances to get on enemys 6... not to talk about that you don't get skills to fight if you don't try.
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IMHO.....
I have only flown the 51 over 8 yrs of these sims for the following reasons....
Its fast
It holds its E....(If I'm serious my IAS rarely drops below 300)
Excellent gun platform at speed
Kills with impunity...(Runaway when I lose the Advantage)
Is American Muscle (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Am a RL pilot and admire its flight characteristics
Having said the above, the F4U is a killer as well....Prolly more so than the stang as an E fighter. The LW plane to best deal with a 51D is any FW flown correctly (no high G turning).
I hope that HT and company make the 51 the hardest most cantankerous aircraft in the sim....maybe then folks will find some other excuse as to why they die at the hands of better pilots (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Ice..........Out!
P51D...."Cadillac of the Skies" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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ICE
P51D...."Cadillac of the Skies"
sums it up perfectly unmanouverable, poor acceleration, butt ugly and american (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
give me a lotus 7 any day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-29-1999).]
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ICE Said....
P51D...."Cadillac of the Skies"
sums it up perfectly unmanouverable, poor acceleration, butt ugly and american
Grrrrrrrrr!!!! Why I oughta...... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
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I love you guys.
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LOL TOWD.. we love you too. You savage brute; you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Hey; who does yer hair? You get that 'Soap-on-a-Rope' we sent yah fer xmas?
Muahhahhaaaaaaaa
Hang
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I like the corsair if it's any consolation (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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The 109 is a tough nut to crack in any plane. However, I believe the LA-5 is a titanium nut, and even harder to crack. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It is very hard to get and hold a good firing angle against a 109. Hard to hit that small plane. The 109 has very good acceleration/climb, good low speed handling and is very fast. Although a rather unruly plane to fly, I feel these qualities give the 109 pilot the most options of the current AH plane set. Exactly what is the problem?
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 12-30-1999).]