Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on March 30, 2004, 08:18:55 PM
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Hello...need some help here. MY WIFES CAR a 2000 ford explorer (I hate fords personally) had some warrenty repairs done on it....namley they had to replace one of the CATs and the sensor. When she got home she told me it ran better but sounded louder. Now this is probably a general exhaust question but is this the proper way to install a new pipe (has 2 CATS that go has muffler w/ two inputs)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/210_1080698927_img_0262.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/210_1080698759_img_0259.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/210_1080698927_img_0262.jpg)
it looks to me but instead of welding it they just cut the pipe off inerted the new one comming off of the cat and than clamped it. I can HEAR/FEEL a leak coming from it and i'm no REAL mechanic
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It doesn't look like a particularly good job.
I've seen them clamped or welded. If she revs it, can you hear it leaking at the pipe?
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looks like exactly what they did. it also apears that when they split the stub they split it farther than the pipe went in. (the leak is right at the split, right? a pro shop shouldn't have to split it, thats the kind of thing people without tools resort to)
they did a really half-prettythanged job of it. if they'd used an expander and cleaned up the inside of the female side, then a clamp would have been fine. instead they heated, split it, and beat the hell out of it.
I'd say take it back and make them fix it but from the looks of it they'd probably just beat it up some more.
your options are either weld up the mess they made (making future repairs slightly harder but no big deal for a shop), or cut off the beat up area and replace it with a pre-fab splice piece (it looks like, once you get out of the beat-up area, that the pipes are the same size. you can pick up couplers at most parts stores that have ID's to match the OD's, clean it up slide them on and re, clamp it)
btw- when working on exaust, save yourself some future trouble and anything that clamps or bolts on should be librally smeared with never-seize. (but keep it out of anywhere you want to weld)
edit, I just noticed you said this is warenty work. make them fix it until it's right and give you a loaner while they dick around
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It doesn't look like a particularly good job.
I've seen them clamped or welded. If she revs it, can you hear it leaking at the pipe?
yes can hear/feel and leak... worst part is it took them 3 1/2 weeks to get this part here. (i guess they have to order american emissions parts from japan or somthing) if they F'ed this one up its gonna be that much longer
on another note the leak does sound kinda kewl and i might consider headers for it in the future....even if it is the wifeacks car
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all of that heating and beating stresses the hell out of the metal, and that split is likely to develope a crack at the end and run, causing the part to fail sooner (and likely after there is no warenty).
I'd make them fix it. but there is no reason you can't continue to drive it while they wait for the new part to arive.
also the cat is stainless so if they weld it with regular wire it will likely crack soon. make sure they use a stainless wire if you go with the weld-up route.
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Who did the repair?
Just curious... I'm also in desert... a bit north of ya I bet... Ridgecrest.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Who did the repair?
Just curious... I'm also in desert... a bit north of ya I bet... Ridgecrest.
Edwards AFB actually. The dealership that did the repair was:
Antelope Valley Ford
1155 Automall Drive
Lancaster, CA
I'm gonna contact the service manager tomorrow...if he doesnt tell me what I want to hear I'm calling the reginal manager...after that its the better business beuro and then a law suit
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A marine at an Air Force base?
That's got to be a pretty good gig. :)
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That's a pretty ****ty job. Hard to believe that a dealership did it. If they don't want to fix it right you might want to run it by another dealership. Welding is definitely the way to go with exhausts. How many miles were on the old cat? Seems odd that it went bad on a 4 or 5 year old car.
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That was fine back in the day of asbestos gaskets. Today, it is not passable. Don't let them weld it, they will have to replace the cat, most likely.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
That's a pretty ****ty job. Hard to believe that a dealership did it. If they don't want to fix it right you might want to run it by another dealership. Welding is definitely the way to go with exhausts. How many miles were on the old cat? Seems odd that it went bad on a 4 or 5 year old car.
the explorer has 62,000 miles on it...I MAY BE WRONG...but I was told by the auto skills center here that the reason its a warrenty repair is because California is an Emissions state.
Either way that's still way short for a CAT to go out.
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
A marine at an Air Force base?
That's got to be a pretty good gig. :)
No longer active duty Marines...but once a Marine, allways a Marine. That line didnt mean much till I got out and realized how true it is.
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that won't pass a cali (or oregon deq) emission test with a leak like that.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
No longer active duty Marines...but once a Marine, allways a Marine. That line didnt mean much till I got out and realized how true it is.
Roger that... you still working with radar? FWIW, I work here (http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/r1/Ecr.htm). In the fourteen years I've been there, they have not ever seemed to stop hiring radar techs.
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Yep, thats a lousy job. Just get it back and demand them to do it properly. That surely won't pass the emission test because it will suck extra air into the pipe.
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Cant weld stainless steel to regular steal or whatever cheap soft steal/iron they use to make mufflers. Can you? Dont think so.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Roger that... you still working with radar? FWIW, I work here (http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/r1/Ecr.htm). In the fourteen years I've been there, they have not ever seemed to stop hiring radar techs.
Nope I'm out of the tech business. If someone had scooped me up two summers ago I might still be "one with the trons". I work on this this (http://www.avitop.com/interact/ejection.htm) for these (http://www.usaf.mil) people now. Completly different world but very rewarding/fun work. Trying to cross train into sattilite communications but not having much luck with it
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
Cant weld stainless steel to regular steal or whatever cheap soft steal/iron they use to make mufflers. Can you? Dont think so.
ummm....what's the purpose of welding if you cant weld similar metals together....
I'd preferr a flange there because they tend to "flex" a little more wich prevents cracks....a weld right there would at least SEAL a leak....
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Nope I'm out of the tech business. If someone had scooped me up two summers ago I might still be "one with the trons". I work on this this (http://www.avitop.com/interact/ejection.htm) for these (http://www.usaf.mil) people now. Completly different world but very rewarding/fun work. Trying to cross train into sattilite communications but not having much luck with it
Hmmm... satcom has got to be difficult. Best of luck.
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I could be wrong but if I recall its not possible to weld different metals to each other. Stainless steel is diffferent in structure to the standard steels. Lotsa different types of steel, some of them can weld together but not stainless steel and some others. Example, you can only weld 4130 to 4130 which is chromoly steel but not 4130 to standard mild steal.
;)
Does look kinda messy though.
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Cant weld stainless steel to regular steal or whatever cheap soft steal/iron they use to make mufflers. Can you? Dont think so.
you can weld stainless to mild-steel. but the wire(or rod ) is expensive (about 12x the price of mild steel), and requires a better than average guy to weld it. most shops would weld it with the cheaper, told you they did it right and let you live with the crack that will develop.
another problem with welding that up is when you go plugging holes in a crappy fit like that you have thick spots on the welds surounded by thin pipe, the different thicknesses heat up(and cool down) at different rates and it will eventually crack.
it would be fine to weld up for someone who was low on cash and just wanted to 'get by' for a while. but this is waranty work and should be done right.
when a quality shop welds them they slip the 2 together and use a uniform weld so as not to focus the stress on any one spot.
patching that thing would be a mess and not last long. if you decide to have it welded, make sure they cut off all the crap and put a splice piece over it. so the welds are just a uniform 'ring' that seals the ends of the splice.
stianless welding is somewhat harder than regular welding and cracks easily. most of the welders who you find working in an auto shop don't have the skill to do a good job (the exception is the custom hi hi-performance shops, might have a good welder inthem).
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Originally posted by Gunslinger (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/210_1080698759_img_0259.jpg)
Looks like they cut the pipe coming from the CAT, and removed the attaching plate? This means trouble when the muffler is replaced as you can't fit it like it's supposed to. Quite unbelievable that this a work of an official dealer.
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Looks like they cut the pipecoming from the CAT, and removed the attaching plate? This means trouble when the muffler is replaced as you can't fit it like it's supposed to.
yep, it should have the flared fitting like the one next to it (allows for expansion rates).
now that you mention it I've never seen a factory or dealer set up that didn't have that type of conection. slip-joints are usually make-shift repairs when attaching to the CAT.
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Yep, they should fit another new CAT and a new muffler aswell to do it properly. It's no way unreasonable to demand this, but be prepared to accept partial responsibility for the muffler as the joint was propably too rusted to be opened properly.
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Your wife should've shown more leg.
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<-Exhaust pro / Custom header/chassis manufacturer opinion...
1st of all Ive welded stainless to mild steel and to aluminized steel thousands of times. (it just takes different heat /welding method)
theres no difference in the rod/wire unless your doing the nice stainless show jobs that get polished afterwards.
now for the truck ... thats stainless to stainless and it should have been welded afterwards .(once you heat and spread that type of pipe it never seals back up very well) or it should of been cut off with the sawzall first then fited back together.
Take it back and tell them to fix it right ...
Note most dealer ships arnt equiped to do exhaust/welding work and the farm the work out . Tell them you would like it fixed properly (welded) and they will most likly send you up to the welding shop they use.
(Ah darn ya mean i have to Take out all that mild steel that i have welded to Chromemoly cages in all those cars that are running faster then 9 sec 1/4ers ??? ) hell thats alot of cars ,and alot of 4 link plates that have to be remade in moly (they only come in steel unless you make them yourself)
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(Ah darn ya mean i have to Take out all that mild steel that i have welded to Chromemoly cages in all those cars that are running faster then 9 sec 1/4ers ??? ) hell thats alot of cars ,and alot of 4 link plates that have to be remade in moly (they only come in steel unless you make them yourself)
nah, if you welded moly with mild-steel wire it'll come out on it's own.
the thing is, in an aplication like that there isn't a lot of stress on your welds in a day to day situation, if so they would have failed in short order.
now they will just fail when exposed to exreame use (like maybe in a crash).
consider this. you go with the crome-molly for strength, but the welds are just 60-series steel. the welds are weaker than the material, and because the welds are at the ends of the pieces the stress is already focused there.
I hold more weld certs, than I could count. from dozens of companies,plus ASME, and AWS. I have x-ray certs on all grades of mild and stainless, crome-moly, including the duplex types of stainless. I've also got non x-ray qualifying certs for cast-iron and aluminum. these certs are in mig, tig, & stick (and the mild-steel in ox/ac)
if you are welding crome molly safety cages with mild-steel wire, I hope you are very well insured. or the right accident is gonna leave somebodys widow owning your shop.
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And this started w a silly leaking exhaust pipe ...
oh well my sfi chassis cert just aint enough for this , well back to the tin snips and tig welding top fuel cars .(at least i wont get sued by some widow LOL) ah hell nevermind ...
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That looks like a Ricer repair to me, did you go to a shop that had dewdz talking about attaching fart cans to crappy '90 Civic Hatchbacks?
-SW
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UPDATE:
Took the vehicle back to AV Ford to have them re-do the work they've allready done. On the way back the Check engine light came back on. I got a rental car from them and they reshaped the pipe and did a pretty good job of welding it. They also replaced the CAT sensors AGAIN. (they were overtourqed and the ceramic coating broke) Today I'm coming home from PT and the check engine light comes back on.
I'm more than mad now.....Warrenty work on this car has cost my family 2 vacations so far and I'm going out of town on business next week. Not to mention this dealership is 45 min. away. My plan of attack now is to have an independant diagnostic done on the vehicle to ensure that it is in fact the same problem. Then I'm gonna contact the reginal service manager. If anyone knows a good point of contact I'd surely appreciate it.
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is there another authorised service center around taht could get your bussiness. to get away from service like that it would be worth driving an hour or 2