Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on March 31, 2004, 06:42:42 PM
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He said she saw (then-14-month-old ) Aaron with a spear, then throwing a rock, then squeezing a frog and believed God was suggesting she should either stab, stone or strangle her children.
Laney at first resisted, but she felt she had to do what she perceived to be God's will to prove her faith, he said.Laney's family said she was never diagnosed with any mental disorder and that they never noticed any signs of illness or mood change before the killings.
Words just escape me. Deanna Laney (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2476204)
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It's very hard to understand how someone can be so disturbed as to murder their own children. Especially someone that claims to know God's love.
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nut-bag
I'm pretty sure she wasn't suzie home maker before - i think her closest friends thought her somewhat odd if they are not nut-bags themselves
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"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
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Originally posted by Chairboy
"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
lol, sorry but that's bs.
More like "all humans are capable of doing evil things, religion or not."
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How do you explain the Crusades, Inquisition, Salem Witch burnings, ethnic cleansing by the serbs, etc etc etc?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
How do you explain the Crusades, Inquisition, Salem Witch burnings, ethnic cleansing by the serbs, etc etc etc?
I don't explain them, but you said it requires religion to make "good"humans do evil, and that's bs.
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No.....
I said that it takes religion to get GOOD people to do evil things. I question your reading comprehension skills.
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And I question your entire logic comprehension skills. That first statement you quoted is so full of holes it isn't even funny.
You actually need me to break that quote down and show you how ignorant it is? Who's quote is that anyway?
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Are you implying that Jobe was a nut bag?
And who's to say that we're right and she's wrong?
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Originally posted by NUKE
And I question your entire logic comprehension skills. That first statement you quoted is so full of holes it isn't even funny.
You actually need me to break that quote down and show you how ignorant it is? Who's quote is that anyway?
It was Stephen Weinberg. I would love to hear your criticism of the logic comprehension skills of a nobel prize laureate.
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Originally posted by NUKE
And I question your entire logic comprehension skills. That first statement you quoted is so full of holes it isn't even funny.
You actually need me to break that quote down and show you how ignorant it is? Who's quote is that anyway?
I think you missed his point. Evil things happen in the name of religion - the actors are otherwise good people
ex. the inquisition, crusades, salem witches
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Originally posted by Chairboy
It was Stephen Weinberg. I would love to hear your criticism of the logic comprehension skills of a nobel prize laureate.
"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
For one, take a simple word substitution: substitute: money, love, lust, greed, mental illness, or any number of things for religion in that statement and you should begin to realise how ignorant it is. The statement assumes that it requires religion to get "good" people to do evil, right?
Now move on to how good or evil is even defined to begin with. What determines and defines good and evil? Isn't it all relative?
Can you give an example of a good person doing evil because of religion? Maybe you should think first before you mention crusades and such, because couldn't you just as well consider the crusaders "evil" people to begin with? Who ever said the crusaders were good people, and then did evil because of religion? Couldn't you say that ANYONE who does evil is an evil person? Does it make sense to you that an evil act could be done by a good person?
The statement does say that only religion can make a good person do evil, correct?
How do you know that murder is evil? What is evil? What is good?
The guy's a moron.
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Originally posted by strk
I think you missed his point. Evil things happen in the name of religion - the actors are otherwise good people
ex. the inquisition, crusades, salem witches
I didn't miss the point at all. The statement clearly says that it requires religion to make a good person do evil.
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Chairboy, ur an stunninghunk.
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I wonder if any Nazis were good people. And I'm sure every war was started because of religion. Yes. Religion should be blamed any time a good person does anything bad. That way, any other institution can be absolved.
MiniD
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What was he a nobel laureate in, generalism, vagueness, bigotry perhaps?
Me, I think all wars are started because of pacifism.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
Great analogy Chairboy.:aok
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The statement clearly says that it requires religion to make a good person do evil.
odd...i a mere 16 year old pulled the same meaning out of it as strk...
anyway it cant be right...how many jews were killed in ww2... by people who were most likely otherwise "good" and werent doing it because of there religion
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Originally posted by NUKE
I didn't miss the point at all. The statement clearly says that it requires religion to make a good person do evil.
not REQUIRED
just ABLE
the diference is that religion is not REQUIRED to make a good person do evil, but religion, as proven by history, is ABLE to make good people do evil.
organized religion, specifically
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How does Mr Weinberg explain communism, an expressly secular ideology aimed helping masses of people but all it accomplished was the murder of hundresds of millions?
If you are going to accet Weinbergs statement you gotta explai that one...
BTW don't be stupid as to say that communism was a religion or a sort of religion, because then you could turn any idealism into a religion and the specific distinction and focus on religion as source of evil deeds would be beaningless.
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No strk... the quote does not say "able". It says "that takes.."
"That requires..." is implicit.
You've modified it to fit your perception and justify reasons for hating religion. It makes it an easier lie to believe.
It takes belief to make good people do bad things. Belief that their bad deeds are for the greater good. It reminds me of democrats actually.
MiniD
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Originally posted by strk
not REQUIRED
just ABLE
the diference is that religion is not REQUIRED to make a good person do evil, but religion, as proven by history, is ABLE to make good people do evil.
organized religion, specifically
Nope, doesn't say that at all.
To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
It not only implies that it takes religion to make a good person do evil, it actually flat out says it! lol.
In that statement, religion is the required ingredient and catylist to make a good person do evil.
"That takes religion".....what do you suppose that means? It means that in order to make a good person do evil, religion is NEEDED, not just an option.
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Stay on em Bud....they mayyyyyy get it soon.
But then again...I doubt it.;)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
Here we go again. How many "Russians" were murdered in the name of anti-religion? Oh wait, those were evil people right? The only good people that do evil are religious. What a crock. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Chairboy
How do you explain the Crusades, Inquisition, Salem Witch burnings, ethnic cleansing by the serbs, etc etc etc?
How do explain wars and gang violence
How do you explian spousal abuse?
None have anything to do with the church or God.
But all have to do with satan.
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I envy your life free of the constraints of logic. It must be wonderfully relaxing.
I'll pull one example of many, the Salem witch trials. Mobs of religious people stoned, persecuted, and cheered as innocent women were burned because they were accused as witches. Was there a spontaneous 'outbreak' of evil? Or were they otherwise good people that, convinced that they were doing 'God's work', were able to murder without a tinge of conscience?
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How do you explain the Crusades, Inquisition, Salem Witch burnings, ethnic cleansing by the serbs, etc etc etc?
like ak said,,how do you explain the millions of people killed in stalins name? mr anti religious nut him self,,lol biggest mass murder of all time in history! 6 or 7 million of his own people,,,and he didnt have any religion,,,power will do things to anyone,,religous or not,,evil is evil,,good is good,religous or not people do bad things,,cant you see that? clear as day to most of us it looks like,,lol
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I envy your life free of the constraints of logic. It must be wonderfully relaxing.
I'll pull one example of many, the Salem witch trials. Mobs of religious people stoned, persecuted, and cheered as innocent women were burned because they were accused as witches. Was there a spontaneous 'outbreak' of evil? Or were they otherwise good people that, convinced that they were doing 'God's work', were able to murder without a tinge of conscience?
hey, there you are!
The Salem trials? Were the people that burned the "witches" good people to begin with? Where is your proof that these people were "good" people that only did "evil" because of "religion"
I can't believe you came back to this thread myself, but more power to you
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I envy your life free of the constraints of logic. It must be wonderfully relaxing.
I'll pull one example of many, the Salem witch trials. Mobs of religious people stoned, persecuted, and cheered as innocent women were burned because they were accused as witches. Was there a spontaneous 'outbreak' of evil? Or were they otherwise good people that, convinced that they were doing 'God's work', were able to murder without a tinge of conscience?
Do you not see that there are just evil people in the world.
Some hide behind God and his teachings.
And also people of that era well were kinda ignorant and cant be compared to todays people (not counting Iraqis of coures)
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Man has been blaming everything on God or Satan out of convenience since the beginning of time.
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Even if she was not religious she still would be crazy. Bad people do bad things. Some just use religion as an excuse. Do not blame the religion. Blame the people's ignorance.
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Chairboy, how do you even know that the people burned weren't the evil one's?
Man, this is almost too easy. It's pointless to cling to that dumb arse quote Chairboy...just move on and it will soon be forgotton :)
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estimates of mass murders and concluded that 170 million people have been intentionally killed by government authorities in the 20th century.
While Hitler ranks high, the greatest mass murderer of all time is Joseph Stalin, our "ally" in WWII. During his regime, Rummel estimates that Stalin killed 43 million of his own people, including 33 million as a consequence of lethal forced labor in the "Gulag" Russian concentration camps.
Next is another communist government -- today our largest trading partner -- China. Chinese communists murdered about 30 million of their own people. At least a million died during Mao's "Cultural Revolution," and another 27 million died of famine, the results of his failed economic policies.
wow,,way higher than i thought!! 43million people!! ,you could put together all the killings in history and hardly make it close to a figure like that,,china killed 30million of its own people,,anti religous too,,,and anothere 27 million in famine<~~can you even get a figure close to 170million ,,i dout it,,lol
,,just goes to show,,people will use anything excuse to do bad things
1975 to 1979, the communist Pol Pot killed 2 million Cambodians -- -almost one third of the total population -- yet the western world sat idly by, watching and making token, formal complaints, yet doing nothing<~~ok,,more anti religous nuts,,can you explain 172 million deaths by anti religous leaders? sounds worse than any religous nut,,lol
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Religion, semantics, who really gives a flying ****?
Fact is - this dumb ***** thought God was talking to her to warn her the devil was near. She's ****ing nuts and was convinced to do something she dreamed up through a means she'd had beat into her mind early on. If it weren't a god, it'd be the ****ing pillsbury dough boy.
-SW
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How does Mr Weinberg explain communism, an expressly secular ideology aimed helping masses of people but all it accomplished was the murder of hundresds of millions?
If you are going to accet Weinbergs statement you gotta explai that one...
BTW don't be stupid as to say that communism was a religion or a sort of religion, because then you could turn any idealism into a religion and the specific distinction and focus on religion as source of evil deeds would be beaningless.
Cmon chairboy use your gift of logic to explain this. the greatest mass murders in history were explicity secular...
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Originally posted by NUKE
lol, sorry but that's bs.
More like "all humans are capable of doing evil things, religion or not."
Good people (by definition) don't do evil things unless they have a reason.
How do you get a good person to do evil things? It's simple -- you give him a cause, something he perceives to be bigger than humanity.
Horrors have been committed for thousands of years in the name of religion. Many of the horrors were actually done by good people, believing they were enforcing god's will. Indeed, 9/11 comes to mind.
Communism is fact a religion in all but name.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Good people (by definition) don't do evil things unless they have a reason.
You want in too?
Good people (by definition) are good people that will not do evil. If a person does evil, that person is evil and always had been evil, otherwise he would remain good.
What "reason" could a "good" person have to do evil unless he was in fact evil to begin with?
You guys are fun:)
No logic here, but it's still fun.
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It is impossible for the sain person to understand the actions of the insaine.
I feel pity for her as she Is WAY sick and on top of losing her mind she has now lost her children by her own hand.
May the babies RIP.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
How do you get a good person to do evil things? It's simple -- you give him a cause, something he perceives to be bigger than humanity.
What if you give the "good" person 1 billion dollars or perhapse some lsd and crystal meth? Maybe that "good" person could do evil then?
Are money and drugs "bigger than humanity" ? What about power, greed, love, lust, envy...??
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Originally posted by NUKE
What if you give the "good" person 1 billion dollars or perhapse some lsd and crystal meth? Maybe that "good" person could do evil then?
Are money and drugs "bigger than humanity" ? What about power, greed, love, lust, envy...??
Nuke the hardest thing for anyone to hold on to in this world is there integrity.
It should never be for sale but often is.
Honor is another thing that should never be on the bargain rack but yet some will sell it for pennys.
Stay true to yourself when others around you laugh at you make fun of you point fingers at you cause if you have your integrity and Honor intact
you tower over them as men.
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Damm Did i just say that?
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A "good" person can be corrupted by anything. Then again, it all depends on an individual's definition of what a "good" person is.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
A "good" person can be corrupted by anything. Then again, it all depends on an individual's definition of what a "good" person is.
-SW
Really well Ive been tempted to "sell" out by money,poosy,drugs hell you name it.
I never did.
You know why?
Cause on my death bed as i am ready to die I will know I have lived the best I could have.
And thats all any of us can really do.
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Nuke the hardest thing for anyone to hold on to in this world is there integrity.
very well said,,and true,,a few times i allmost did some things that would of made life tuff,,,like my freinds girlfreind tried to take me to bed one night,,i turned her down after a long pause,,,trust me,,i almost did,,just because she is hot as hell,,but!! i new inside i would be throwing away one of my best long time freinds just for a night of fun,,plus nothing is worth loosing a freind who would do anything to help you,,so i guess you could say i did the good and right thing,,because in the long run,,years now down the road,,his ex is now a heavy crack addict,,proubly has aids,,she looks too skinny:( and is so mind fried now,,,her teeth are falling out,,just scary,,i just glad i did the right thing!! i would of lost a freind and gained nothing
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Originally posted by NUKE
What if you give the "good" person 1 billion dollars or perhapse some lsd and crystal meth? Maybe that "good" person could do evil then?
Are money and drugs "bigger than humanity" ? What about power, greed, love, lust, envy...??
Nuke, you're talking about weak people, or people who simply make errors in judgment.
When Weinberg referred to evil, he meant deeds which place the doer beyond the pale of humanity.
I'm sure you don't need a litany of evil deeds, but I can list several hundred if you need them. ;)
curly
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Uhm... uhhhhmmmmmmmm... yeaaahhhh. All those threats of kicking ass, they don't exactly make you a "good" person.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Nuke, you're talking about weak people, or people who simply make errors in judgment.
When Weinberg referred to evil, he meant deeds which place the doer beyond the pale of humanity.
I'm sure you don't need a litany of evil deeds, but I can list several hundred if you need them. ;)
curly
To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
No, this is what I'm talking about. This statement is BS and even you know it, based on your changing argument.
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Im logging for tonight, so dont take any cheap shots :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How does Mr Weinberg explain communism, an expressly secular ideology aimed helping masses of people but all it accomplished was the murder of hundresds of millions?
If you are going to accet Weinbergs statement you gotta explai that one...
BTW don't be stupid as to say that communism was a religion or a sort of religion, because then you could turn any idealism into a religion and the specific distinction and focus on religion as source of evil deeds would be beaningless.
actually if you look at the etymology of the word... it work.
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Originally posted by NUKE
You want in too?
Good people (by definition) are good people that will not do evil. If a person does evil, that person is evil and always had been evil, otherwise he would remain good.
What "reason" could a "good" person have to do evil unless he was in fact evil to begin with?
You guys are fun:)
No logic here, but it's still fun.
I'm a lot of things, Nuke, but being illogical isn't one of my failings.
When I was a farmboy, I used to have conversations my tractor. Man, I wanted off the farm. In retrospect, the tractor made a lot more sense than you, Nuke. At least it never responded.
curly
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Which word, communism, ideology or religion?
Communism is not religion, its expressly secular - no god, no divinty, no higher power, just people.
Mere ideolgy is not religion either. See above.
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I'll ask you do dig your french ;)
Religion : Ensemble de pratiques et de rites propres à chacune de ses croyances.
"C'est en tant que religion, que la doctrine communiste exalte et alimente les ferveurs des jeunes gens d'aujourd'hui. Leur action même implique une croyance; et s'ils transfèrent leur idéal du ciel sur la terre, ainsi que je fais avec eux, ce n'en est pas moins au nom d'un idéal qu'ils luttent et, au besoin, se sacrifient."
GIDE
No need to put faith in god in the equation.
For example a religion based on animism doesn't imply the existance of god ...
and communism can be seen as a religion see (it's a bit provocative ;))
Yahweh = Materialism
Messiah = Marx
The Elect = the proletariat
Church = the party
Idéologie : L'idéologie, c'est ce qui pense à votre place
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Animism sure has spiritual elements and some form of other higher power or existance as relflected in the spirts around people and their interacition with the world...
Straffo comminsim is expressly against religion. You can try to spin it as such but then you could spin any idea or iseology as a religion. But thats desperate...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Animism sure has spiritual elements and some form of other higher power or existance as relflected in the spirts around people and their interacition with the world...
Straffo comminsim is expressly against religion. You can try to spin it as such but then you could spin any idea or iseology as a religion. But thats desperate...
Concerning animism, you're wrong, Grun. Shinto has no "higher power." Everything has a kami, including inanimate objects.
curly
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Animism sure has spiritual elements and some form of other higher power or existance as relflected in the spirts around people and their interacition with the world...
Straffo comminsim is expressly against religion. You can try to spin it as such but then you could spin any idea or iseology as a religion. But thats desperate...
You need to look-up animism IMO.
Btw I'm not spining anything.
My perception is that comunists are against competition.
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God wasn't talking to her.
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Some of you seem to be overlooking something here in regards to "evil". Evil is defined by religion. If there were no religion there would be no evil, only misguided or depraved "good" people. This seems to be a flaw in Chairboys quote:
"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion."
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Interesting point, Iron. After considering it, I'd like to suggest that religion was originally responsible for helping define the concept of evil, but that since then it has taken a life of its own because as a society, we've all agreed on a basic framework of what is good and bad. Please note, I'm saying it's a basic framework, that still allows us to disagree on specifics.
My compliments to you and everyone else on the thread who has argued with something better then 'you is stupid, chairboy'. The quote I posted is something I find very interesting, not just a cheap shot. I really think that it's true, and I'm confident enough in it that I'm comfortable engaging in debate about it.
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"Without religion good people will do good things and evil people will do evil things. To get good people to do evil things--that takes religion (sometimes, or a reasonable facsimile thereof)."
There... that should satisfy those intent on picking fly **** from pepper.
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Chairboy, I have to admit to getting emotional from time to time (only because it's obvious to everyone else ;) ) but have to agree that it is counter productive to resolving differences.
When it comes to a religion-free utopia as "imagined" by John Lennon and so many others I have to point out that this isn't just some hippy ideal but has been put into practice in the 20th century with murderous results never seen before in recorded history. You cannot champion a religion-free society without facing this.
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Wow.
These are relative terms. VERY few people truly consider themselves evil. Nearly everyone considers themselves good.
Reagan considered the USSR evil. They didn't.
The US is not evil, we're the good guys, so why are we being called "the great satan?"
Hannity's book calls liberals evil. Liberals call conservatives evil and hateful. Both respective parties believe they are the ones doing the good and noble thing. Go figure...
No one's gonna win this argument.
I doubt OBL, SH, Hitler, Pol Pot, and countless others thought they were doing evil. They probably all believed they were doing the world and their contry a huge friggin favor.
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Wow.
These are relative terms. VERY few people truly consider themselves evil. Nearly everyone considers themselves good.
Reagan considered the USSR evil. They didn't.
The US is not evil, we're the good guys, so why are we being called "the great satan?"
Hannity's book calls liberals evil. Liberals call conservatives evil and hateful. Both respective parties believe they are the ones doing the good and noble thing. Go figure...
No one's gonna win this argument.
I doubt OBL, SH, Hitler, Pol Pot, and countless others thought they were doing evil. They probably all believed they were doing the world and their contry a huge friggin favor.
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I agree, AKIron, but I hope you'll acknowledge the other side, that you can't talk about an all-religious utopia without considering the Taliban or Iran.
Like politics, both sides of the religious debate have their extremists.
I don't advocate a religious free society, quite the contrary. I think religion is a personal thing that should not be used as a rationale for imposing control on others. When law is changed to conform with the views of a religion, everyone else loses. The same is true when a government tries to outlaw ALL religion.
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I agree Chairboy, lot of bad things done in the name of religion. I'm sure you are aware that it was the religious leaders of the day that sent Christ to be crucified.
If everyone followed the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", life would be better all around for everyone.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Some of you seem to be overlooking something here in regards to "evil". Evil is defined by religion. If there were no religion there would be no evil, only misguided or depraved "good" people. This seems to be a flaw in Chairboys quote:
Who's arguing with Chairboy? I'm just here shooting at Nuke. :)
Here, I'll say what Weinberg probably meant. "All forms of religion are a pox on the arse of humanity."
As for what you've just mentioned, it amounts to the idea that "Evil" is an invention and what passes for "Evil" in Bangladesh might well be good manners in Austin.
What is illegal or possibly against norms of society in Bangladesh will certainly vary from Austin, but there are certainly actions which will repulse humanity in all regions.
The idea that humanity is only able to define itself by the mythic rantings of poorly adjusted cretins is misguided in my opinion.
To be sure, religion is an important element which helps shape the form of civilization but to a large extent, religion has been a defiler of civility.
Look at our constitution for many examples of people trying to escape the effects of religion and royalty. History teaches us that religion is inherently evil/bad/negative influence (pick your word) when it comes to organizing the affairs of mankind.
It's not that religion defines evil, rather it's that organized religion is evil because it gives its practitioners the necessary escape hatch when they wish to do something nasty. Examples on request ... :)
It is unwise to define something (evil) in terms of something (organized religion) which is inherently evil.
curly
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I guess we need to define our terms here Curly to be sure that we are on the same ballfield?
It would seem that you are saying evil is not an absolute but rather defined by a society or culture?
I won't argue that people do evil things in the name of religion. I also won't argue that religion isn't used to control people for evil purposes. Afterall, I believe we are all sinners and thus evil, hence the need for salvation.
I will argue against religion being the root of evil. Like I said, there have been far greater atrocities committed in the name of freeing mankind from religion than vice versa.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Concerning animism, you're wrong, Grun. Shinto has no "higher power." Everything has a kami, including inanimate objects.
curly
Higher power or existance, by this I mean spirits, something beyond the normal pgysical realm.. Thats the whole point of animism. Inn the various old animism religions spirtits actively influence people in the real the world, they have some sort of other worldly "higher" power - for example in animism an amulet has it's own sacred other worldly power - it does not imply god... Yet it is still a religion.
Straffo.
Commonunsim dont like competetion...
Yep thats why its against religion, communists see religion as something bad and want to eliminate it to make the world "better." That doesnt make communism a religion....
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Originally posted by AKIron
I guess we need to define our terms here Curly to be sure that we are on the same ballfield?
It would seem that you are saying evil is not an absolute but rather defined by a society or culture?
I will argue against religion being the root of evil. Like I said, there have been far greater atrocities committed in the name of freeing mankind from religion than vice versa.
No, just the opposite. I believe "Evil" by definition cuts across all forms of society. In other words, "Evil" isn't defined by arbitrary rules which make up society.
And no, of course religion isn't the root of "Evil." But men use religion to justify "Evil", thus the Weinberg quotation.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
No, just the opposite. I believe "Evil" by definition cuts across all forms of society. In other words, "Evil" isn't defined by arbitrary rules which make up society.
And no, of course religion isn't the root of "Evil." But men use religion to justify "Evil", thus the Weinberg quotation.
curly
Men use all sorts of reasons to justify evil. It doesn't require religion for that, which if I understand the quote correctly is what he said.
Mama usta say "evil is as evil does."
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People with Schizophrenia and related diseases often suffer hallucinations where they hear voices that tell them to do things. In many cases, the patient believes these voices come from God or secret government agents of some sort.
Of course nobody other than the patient actually blames God or the government for this.
Unless they themselves have some sort of …
…uh oh
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I usta hear voices telling me to get off my lazy bellybutton and help with the house cleaning. Thought it was just the devil 'till she hit me with a broom. ;)