Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on December 26, 1999, 12:02:00 PM
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tsk; tsk; tsk.. from reading some of the negative on-line comments regarding the AH P51D's "uber" performance and "UFO" characteristics; well, one might get the impression it's overmodeled more than, say; the Gustav... I say the complaints are for the most part bogus!@!
First.. the P51D does spin.. and if you wait too long to get the nose down and/or overcontrol at ANY speed; it'll snap right out. Yes; it's not as unforgiving in these attitudes as it could/should be; (it's all BETA flight modeling!) but I've seen the same characteristic in FW's and 109's used to exceptional advantage too.. so this is no Mustang Exclusive.
Second.. It's climb when light is very good; as it should be; and when loaded with fuel or ext tanks it ain't. If yah haul it up into a climb without FIRST getting a head of steam on; well; yer porked. Get the plane moving about 300ias and then angle up to 3500fps climb rate; she'll climb fairly well to about 180 IAS; then sag out. I've been routinely outclimbed by La5's; 109's and spits at same energy states. The 'climb advantage' of the P51 is pure smoke and mirrors. More Propaganda. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Next.. the Mustang does not out-turn a spit or a Niki, (or La5 or C205 of Bf109), and is easily whipped up on in a knife-fight by just about anything in the sim.. even a C47 can get inside a Mustang in a low E high G turn. The Mustang's main T&B weapon is energy.. if it gets slow it's beaten in the turns. What most people interpet as a superior turn is in fact just the Mustang going around a LARGER circle faster then the other guys slower plane making it around it's SMALLER circle. Sharp Mustang pilots using yo-yo's and good SA can stay with the more manuverable adversarys for a few turns; but the extended turnfight advantage rests with the more nimble knife-fighter. As for the Mustangs alleged 'over acceleration'.. pure crap. I've watched far too many La5's and 109's crawl right up my bellybutton from a standing runway start to buy into that one either. Only hope the stang has for an extension from most planes is a dive.. and try using a Mustang to dive away from a FU41d or and FW and yah get a real surprise.
Then of course.. the weaknes of the Stang.. 2 ping engine death. Bright reflective aluminum skin against a dark green groundcover. The miserable accel. The weak MG's. Poor turner in the clutch; lousy vertical fighter. The strength of the Gustav.. absorbs a tremndous volume of fire.. and flies away. Imagine.. fully 1/3 smaller in physical size is the Gustav compared to the stang.. a much smaller target.. and it can absorb TWICE the volume of hits and continue the fight. And the guys flying this FAST and EXCEPTIONALLY DANGEROUS uber Bf that can WALK AWAY from the stang in a climb, toting an exceptional weapons loadout gripe about the Two Ping underpowered stang??? LOL! And then there's the magic Levitating Gustav.. 100IAS and going up still at 3000fpm. Amazing.
IMHO it's the pilot that makes the Mustang dangerous. Having the very same fat head that all good fighter pilots are blessed with (I figure I can take on anything; and will sure as hell give it the college try); I enter every fight determined to kill the adversary; confident that I can; and I go about it with ferocity and determination. Timid pilots die quick.
Now; fact is some pilots are more determined than others.. skills vary. A/C relative energy states are critical. Knowledge of the plane and its capability... gunnery; SA; weight of numbers.. all these play a FAR LARGER part in the outcome of any fight than the A/C themselves.
On many occasions I have run up against a very competent and determind pilot in an FW; La5, Bf or another P51 and come away dead. Sometimes the fight went the other way. The old saw "some days yah get the bear.. somedays it gets you" applies. I've never considered that I got whipped up on by a superior A/C.. no matter what I'm flying. fact is; I got whipped by a superior pilot doing his thing just right.. He made fewer mistakes.. he engaged with e advantage.. he used superb wing tactics; he used terrain to his advantage... or he got lucky. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Some guys; good pilots too boot, (hi TOWD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) have this cretin impulse to immediatly upon their demise in their fav plane start a rant on the open freq about how my poor choice of flying the American 'uber plane' killed them. This is a very cheap dodge from the facts.. yah; that's right! Yah got whupped by someone who out thought yah; out fought yah and out shot yah.
My plane; without me; is just a pile of "poorly assembled made in USA junk" (quote from TOWD) sitting in a hanger. With a skilled pilot in the cockpit; it's a very dangerous machine indeed. And this is equally true for every gun totin plane in the sim. So; whiners.. take yer whuppins like men. If yah can't stand yer hardware choice; get another plane.. but fer crissakes stop bellyachin.. if yer dead; yer dead. Shaddup. The dead shouldn't be fillin the text box with complaints after the fact.. one of the key points of bein dead... yer DEAD. sahaddup already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Take yer gripe HERE to the BBS and leave us the hell alone while on-line!
So.. having finished MY rant; I'll just say it'd sure be nice to NOT see the text buffer cluttered up with whining and blatant attacks on a good fight simulation with Beta flight models simply because the pilot himself blew the play. I make it a point to tell the other guy that he flew one hell of a fight when I loose.. and try to do the same when I win.
In the meantime.. look to whipping the guy with yer plane and yer skills.. not whipping up a frenzy in the text buffer.
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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oh.. and I forgot.. does ANY other plane have a Tissue Paper vert fin besides the P51?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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I like this post!
Wtg Hang!
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Of course the plane isn't the most important aspect it's the pilot but it is still a factor. I would wait untill the FM's start getting finalised before squeaking saying that though many many people believe the stang is overmoddeld at the moment are they all wrong?
It's all opinions at the moment only some detailed controled flight tests will sort the matter out but what's the point as the models will be changed fairly soon.
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-26-1999).]
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Hang,
WTG!..
I fly any planes from LA to Pony to Spit to...well u get the picture..anyway, I couldn't agree with you more on the belly-aching.
If you get shot down, you get shot down. It's each individuals choice as to the plane they fly. I do like the idea that HT will strive very hard for as realistic Flight Modeling as they can (within the marketing, demographic restraints they have).
I do not envy the task that HT and crew has in this endeavour. They will never please all of us, but they are putting out one of the best to hit the online sim world so far. And I'm sure they will keep pace with whatever competition brings on the next evolution of the WWII online simming experience.
But to crowd the text buffer with insults and degrading remarks because the enemy doesn't have the same plane taste as you is ridiculous and childish!
I am definately not the best tactical flyer here, but I sure have a hell of a time in this sim, win, loose, or draw! (Whiners not withstanding).
Anyway, this sim has drawn a wide range of folks. Just review the BBS on some days, there are some very knowledgable folks with lots of data to share. Sometimes to much to share, but that's why we are here...to have input on a product that we will eventually pay for (not often one gets to help in the product development phase in something we will ultimately buy!)
Anyway, my ranting is done...I got a bit off topic, but my keyboard was begging me to get this out!
All of the above being said...this is a good bunch of folks that have gathered to test out this product, and I enjoy my time "flying" the sim.
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Yup I aree Cobra.. The developers are constantly among us; flying and dying like the rest of us. They know what's what. And their efforts at producing the best of the best in flight simming are hugely appreciated. For off line critiques, the BBS works just fine in exchanging ideas and technical data.. as it should be.
All in all.. I suspect the whiners will shut up and leave when it comes time ta put their money down. In the meantime; I GREATLY appreciate the quality of combat in the sim and well considered insights of our fellow pilots on the BBS. There are damn few real pissy whiners out there.. sadly, these few can make the experience far less than enjoyable for the majority on occasion...
Worse, I fear the impressions being made on the newer pilots amongst us just getting started with the sim will be negative based on the asinine comments being made on the general frequency. First impressions are lasting ones.
So; for all the uninformed out there; there's a .squelch xxxxxx command.. and I use it unflinchingly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks fer yer kind replys gents.
Goodspeed yer next Mission. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Excuse me, I did not see you mentioning how experienced you are with AH P-51
..what were overmodels for Bf109? its speed?
or Fw190s?
Why are the skies filled up with stangs and spitfires usually? (stangs all around in offensive and spitfires all around in defensive)
1. climbs +3500fpm without having 300mph
2. Its MGs does kill, you must hit more than with cannons, but those guns has higher rate of fire, so youll hit in same time more than with cannons, making same effect. I have not seen any problems with killing in P-51, flew right off 8 kill sortie and couple 6 kill sorties right after. (..and felt that i got those kills way too easy)
3. Obviously you haven't met those UFO P-51 pilots
4. Pilot makes plane dangerous, but its matter how much more dangerous it becomes
5. I haven't noticed any great durability with Bf109 compared to P-51, as well loses parts to some 800-900 yards spray&pray.
6. It seems to accerlate quite fairly for being slow accerlate in real life
7. Bf109 never gets the same kills per sortie/kills per time/kills per death as P-51
(make those all together)
8. BF109 was best climbing and accerlating planes during WW2, this gustav 10 was also very fast.
9. I wouldn't go compare C-47 to P-51...
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Perfect rebuttal Hang..Ive read some post on the so called uberstang with people making claims like, it out turns so and so, climbs better than that one...bull. Ask any stang driver with a few hundred sorties (I am one, think hang is too) under his belt and he will tell ya the climb sux, sustained turn at anything below high speed is v bad, and not to mention that 6 50s can still feel like spud guns.
Most of the whining is coming from dedicated flyers of other planes who as is natural want to have the best plane possible. You wont hear their moans when they catch a 51 low and slow with an unexperienced pilot at the stick. They will use superior turn firepower and climb to tear it a new one.
It just seems some egos dont like being bursted by the same experienced 51 pilots. ts not as though the 51 was an average fighter during the war is it?
Dotsie.
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Thanks Dotsie.. yer my most favorite adversary in the sim. Even a small mistake in yer presence is usually fatal, and you always press the engagement hard. I enjoy flying against pilots of your caliber, I learn more about flying from my defeats at yer hands than from victories against pilots like Fishu... hiding at 30k. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Since I also see u flying many diffrent AC besides the Stang, your insight is most appreciated. I have spent some time in all the AC types, looking for relative strenghts and weaknesses, and have so far; like you, come to the conclusion that for the most part; the relative merits of the planes are modeled well.
And yah.. It's not like the P51D was yer 'average' plane during the war. Much to the dissapointment of the LW.
Thanks again for your post.... Yah Bum. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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LOL Fishu!! Pretty feeble; bud. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
>>>>Excuse me, I did not see you mentioning how experienced you are with AH P-51 <<
I have some experience, and in fact all my kills but three were in a P51. And I've killed a fair number of planes in this sim. Now; Lets look at our respective scores to determine how we fly. (as of 5:00pm eastern, Sunday)
Hang: Fishu:
Fighter Kills 585 212
Bomber Kills 63 93
Sorties 490 162
Landed 116 151
Deaths 250 11
Point Ranks 16th 14th
Hit ranks 344th 272th
Overall rank 155th 8th
Hmmmmmmmmm... looks ta me like yah like ya run a heluva lot more than I do.. How so do I get the 'runstang' label? Certainly; yah have a preference fer killin buffs. My, My. What a challenge... reachin way down the food chain fer supper; bud.
Do you ever actually TURN with an adversary.. or run back to alt to preserve yer score? Do yah fly this sim for a sense of accomplishment in the arena.. help yer fellow rooks when they need it, commin down to the fight ta clear a six or are yah just another score dweeb, annoyed cause his beloved kannonen wagen prefrence is hard to fly in an actual FIGHT.
Now that we have established bona-fides... when was the last time yah actually killed someone that saw yah commin?? LOL
As for the various other items in your post.. they are in response to observations that the Mustang is not an 'uber' plane.. no more so than the FW or 109. And as the pilots that actually FLY one in a FIGHT will attest; it's quite capable of killin it's adversarys just as well as the Mustang is.
It's not your fav plane that needs adjusting Fishu.. it's you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 12-26-1999).]
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Hang: you don't seem to know anything about me..
I flew last time +30k when I chased 36k B-17 just for waste of time and used whole Fw190s fuels for it (realistic ceiling for B-17 huh?)
My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, which still seems to be way below stangs and spitfries.
I run only if I am going to have some superior numbers agains't me.
I fly most of the time alone, not with some friendly gang bangers behind me.
If I've flown P-51D, I know how to compare it to other planes.
In P-51D I don't do 5k extends or such, I fight till I kill enemy or get underdog when cavalry arrives to help my target.
Next time DO NOT say a word about my fighting style if you don't know anything about it. (obviously you don't)
Theres enough guys already telling me about 30k flying when I barely ever even go to close those levels.
I Can say that I do turn alot and maneuver very much, because I like to take plane to its limits.
Btw. I like more fightning below 10k than above it
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thx Hang. Must say i feel the same about ur stylee too. Love the hard fought 51 on 51 scrap (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Fishu, if i was seeking info on the merits of the 109 (i think its ur ride). I would feel urs was a good opinion to seek. But if i want to know about the 51 urs is NOT the one i would go for. I checked ur stats and u have not had any kills in a 51 this tour. NOT 1! In tour 1 its was 47 kills but that was a couple of revisions ago. Seems to me any opinion u got on stang has come about by being on the recieving end of it. Considering u like to land ur flights im sure this is something u dont like.
I have over 900 kills in the 51 since beta began, Hang has over 600. And if both of us have come to conclusion that 51 has major weaknesses, that if its not flow to its 1 good strength its nitey night, we feel its fairly true to the performance of its RL type in ww2, then im afraid u will just have to agree cause u aint qualified to say other wise.
Hope u see what im getting at.
Dotsie.
Oops forgot...Ya Bum!
[This message has been edited by dotsie (edited 12-26-1999).]
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Be fair hang he is probably just good.
Is it not possible that the stang is overmodelled as it has been stated many times the FM's are only roughed in and this implies that all planes are wrong i.e. overmodelled or undermodelled. It may well be the case that the stang has benefited the most from this situation as one plane has to. In your opinion then what plane has benefitted most from the roughed in FM's i.e. which plane has improved the most verses real data or even just relative to the other planes.
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These FMs are incomplete and should be viewed as such.
Any hassle that arises out of arguments about *this plane* or *that planes* handling qualities are merely excercizes in futility
at this stage of developement.
Its beta, I thought everyone knew that!
Yeager
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51s still suc hehe
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You deride the whiners and then you blast into a well reasoned response from fishu...
Ahem.
It's my opinion that the 51 is modeled pretty close with the exception of the acceleration and lower speed turning capability. While it doesn't turn quite as well as other planes at low speed it still turns too well.
But I suspect the low speed handling will be tweaked for ALL planes pretty soon.
And right now I suspect the 'uber' handling of the 51 is more a matter of some 'unter' modeling of the other planes. It seems to me that there's a long list a small gripes about the various other planes that once addressed will cut the 'stang down to size.
Plus the addition of a few more planes will also balance this one out a tad.
Just wait until folks start whining about the p-38 or the low alt capabilities of the p-39 or the durability of the lightning?
Me? I can't wait for the a-26 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
~Lemur
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the 51s are ufo's and that's that. Plain and simple, and I can't wait til the refine the FMs and reign them in. Been several times I've taken a 109 up just to have an ufo jump on my six and end up on the deck turning on the edge of a stall, and _nothing_ I can do about it. Hard breaks on the edge of stall w/ the ufo at d600 and it hangs right there with me. Rolling scissors to try and cause an overshoot and the ufo is glued to me arse.
And as for diving. My preferred rides are the fort and the hawg. Been many a time I've been hunting in me hawg and seen an ufo d5k below me. I roll'er over and drop on this ufo. I get to about d1k (flipping zoom ever so often to check aspect angle) and this ufo buries its nose and dives away from me, when I'm _already_ in a dive on him. Now I know I'm not the greatest stick in AH, and never claim to be, but I think it's pretty hard for me to screw up a dive (yes, I was watching me trim) and let an ufo get away.
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Hint to "you don't fly P 51D" and "you don't have a single kill in P 51D" accusers.
Some people fly under different handles when flying other planes. That goes for the pilot mentioned above. He HAS considerable time in all the planes. It might surprise you he has better K/D and kill per time ratios in P 51D than you do. Not to mention, how would it look for him to fly P 51D as a CO of JG 51 ?
And even being on recieving end of the P 51D can teach a lot. How far can you go against one ? What to expect in given situation ? How to counter its moves ? No need to fly the Pony. Fly the bird you know the best and compare it to the skilled pilot in P 51D against you. Use a guncam to analyze the duel after. You perfect your Pony flying and I will do my best in 109, so we can see close our contest is matched. So far no complaints but few on my side. And yes, I have tried the Pony too, but the plane just doesn't interest me.
Next thing: you do a maneuver hundreds of times in 109. You got it almost perfected in it. By all your understanding 109 should excel at it. Well, I tried it just few times in P 51D. It did it better every time. Enough said. I don't need 500 sorties in Pony to atest that.
Accusing someone to attack only when unseen or just padding score by attacking buffs is pretty lame. How do you attack, Hangtime ? Do you announce your attack on open channel and attack from disadvantage ?
P.S.
Lemur pointed it out. These 2 things are suspicious in P 51D modeling. Rest is OK, IMO.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-27-1999).]
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Hmm.
I see 2 things to say;
The 1st thread was not as much an accusation of the P51 as a thread on how to handle killing it.
2nd I agree that there are at least a few things that are "suspicious" about the P51 handling. In a dive I too see these planes walking away from me in full dive. I think it's because they accelerate a step more than they should. My biggest gripe is the P51's low speed handling. I _HATE_ this. I think if the P51 was properly a tub of stalling crap in 100 IAS knife fights nobody would complain about it. I never mention it in the radio buffer but my teeth grind when I take a P51 to the deck in my LA-5FN slash his E out and get him into the low speed knife fight I need to kill him. Just to watch him do wild scissors at 100 IAS and sustained turns to gain the overshoot or keep himself alive long enough to accelerate and run. as it is I have to change my tactics to fighting it like I would a hi powered 109 or something. I should have no problem forcing a low speed stang 200ft off the deck to auger trying to turn away from me.
However I am sure these things will be addressed. It is a beta and they know of these things. I myself am looking apprehensivly to the fuller models. I can't wait to see what changes will happen.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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I have only 3-4 flight experience on P-51, so I don't have a clue how to fly it (althought I qualified accroding to Hristo(I ran pretty good) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), as a P-51 dweeb point of view, I'd say it isn't any TnB plane.
It burns its E quite fast even in fast speeds (yeah, I always had more than 50% fuel left).
I've seen really great E fights done with P-51 (someone who knows how to fly it).
Still P-51 is quite safe plane to start learning fights(if You, for some reason, don't wanna fly spit, You always have "run" option, even thought You'll immediatly being accused by runstanging.
I say, he/she who want to fly P-51 let him/her do it ! If you wanna fly C.205, hell, fly it ! It's everyones own decision and let's respect it !
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have done stall fightning in P-51, can't get rid of 109 habbits :P
It does it fairly well for a plane which should be worse to handle than 109 at stall fights.
(like that 8 kill sortie in dweebstang... half of kills stall fights, 1 quickie and rest 3 were few turns and burns)
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Man, oh man. Between this thread and the other, the anti-christ-stang thread, I'm deep
into my second package of Depends......
roflma...pimp...
Oh cripes. I gotta go change myself again
[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 12-27-1999).]
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8. BF109 was best climbing and accerlating planes during WW2, this gustav 10 was also very fast.
Yeah, right. Let's have spitfire 14 modeled ( early 1944 ) or better model of 9 ( HF or LF climb better then F model ) and then we can talk.
This "i should be able to point my nose up and get a go home free card" whining of 109 drivers is so boring....
Go ahead. Tell me a story about GM1 ...
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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Well, well, A subject I do know something about.
First of all, the MA-duce 50cal isn't modeled correctly in ANY sim I've ever flown. AH comes closer than WB or AW3.
Gang, this is a supersonic round, with a high rate of fire.
I have fired many types of 50 cals, and I have seen the damage it does to armor plating, buildings,and vehicles.
This should be the most feared weapon in the air, not the slow,short range chunkers.
If these 50 cals were correctly modeled, you in a 17 should be able to shoot down a single attacking 109 from 3k away, 2k if you are a crappy shot. One the other hand the 109 would have to close to 1k or less to fire.
What I do is, when I get to 200-300 yards fire and barrel roll (really a qazie 6 point roll). chainsaws the wings right off! Tracers look real purdy spirialing too :-)
Of all the Ponys I've driven, AH's gives me the feel of flyin'. I drive high, fast and don't T&B with my pony.
In the ocean of aircraft the P-51d is the Barrcuda of the sky & should be driven that way.
Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight
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Gang, this is a supersonic round, with a high rate of fire.
Most rounds, except .45 ACP maybe, are supersonic. Speed of sound is 330 m/s roughly, even MG FF shell has some 570 m/s. You imply 109 uses subsonic rounds ? Why, it has subsonic silencer ammo or something ?
Yeah, right. Let's have spitfire 14 modeled ( early 1944 ) or better model of 9 ( HF or LF climb better then F model ) and then we can talk.
If you think you really need it, go ahead. G-10 is enough for LW pilots right now. Well, maybe a 262 from time to time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This "i should be able to point my nose up and get a go home free card" whining of 109 drivers is so boring....
But we can do it, even now :P
And with the trade off, G-10 might jump you with TnB, like K-4 could whip Spit XIV in WB.
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Fd ski: whats wrong with spitfire, doesn't it kill already enough fairly?
At least I kill way more in it than in 109.
Mr.Ed, 2-3k? hah! what have you been using, some modern modified .50 caliber gun, with some depleted uranium rounds or what those were? (note: with that depleted uranium stuff, bullet flies way longer distances, than some bullet with only some steel composite)
I've even heard of B-17 gunners beind told not to shoot beyond 1000 yards, just to conserve ammunition.
So, can I have those depleted uranium ammunition for my 190 also in that case .. pretty please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
btw. If I would be buff driver, I would be more feared of 20mm or 30mm than .50 caliber.. see, .50 caliber has less effective range than heavy cannon ammo. (not to talk about how they blow)
Don't go compare modern M2<something> with modern ammunition, to something that was its older model from WW2, with ammunition of that time.
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HangTime;
WOW ! Well said. <Salute>
I fly all the planes myself. I fly the plane that fits my mission profile and I switch around for variety.
As to the UberMustang, the UberUFO or the UberGoober, I really have no clue. I feel some individuals have actually discredited their very good arguements. It often just ends up sounding like UberWhining. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW what is Uber? My only recollection is from the book series based on the planet "Gor", Uber meaning King. The "Tarnsmen of Gor", blow any dust off? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Uber is the German prefix meaning "over". Ubermensch=Overman, etc.
Flathat the Unterpilot
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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Hristo! Salute! Every LW plane I engage; I engage with the assumption YOU are at the controls. Can't wait till I get a crack at yah. I expect to lose; I also expect to learn.. just as i did when I ran up against Daniko. By the way.. that guy seems to have no trouble flyin the FW; nope; none at all. Maybe he should be leadin that LW squad.. he knows how to use the tools.
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Accusing someone to attack only when unseen or just padding score by attacking buffs is pretty lame. How do you attack, Hangtime ? Do you announce your attack on open channel and attack from disadvantage ?
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Nope.. I don't and neither do you. Nor does anybody else. (at least not the sane ones. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) I do however have an entirely diffrent set of priorites from a score-hound. And that's the point. Having been in at least TWICE the number of furballs in MY plane of choice than HE has; I guess I can state with SOME authority he's full of crap regarding WHO's doing the running IN WHAT.
If yah look at the first line in the message Fishu posted you will note his question of my qualifications in the P51D. Having done so; I felt he kicked open the door to a rather close examination of HIS qualifications.
As you'll note in the follow on post to the pilot in question I've seen him around the WB's free play arena.. He was a score-hound then; I think he's a score-hound now. And in my opinion; his score card confirms it. And gentlemen.. I do have a right to my opinion. Further; having far more experience than him; (I too have several other on line AH personas.. care to lump the score and points for comparison??) I got a little annoyed at the tone.. so; FLAME ON! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As to my attack style.. you'll find me in the furballs. Clearin my team and squadmates sixes. Runnin desperation field defense or enforcing field caps prior to closing. In short.. I fly a diffrent game than Fishu does.. I'm in the sim for entirely different reasons; not ONE of them has to do with a scorecard.
Now; please don't get me wrong.. If Fishu or anyone else wants ta fly a 'scorecard' simulation; well, fine by me. These guys don't affect my enjoyment of the sim one iota.. till they start makin noises about my choice of aircraft, or classify me as a 'Dweebstang" driver or "runstang" pilot because the AC modeling of my plane of prefrence is not to HIS personal taste, and do so in the text buffer ad-nasuem while he's trollin around at 30k bored outta his wits DOES cut into my enjoyment of the sim.
Which in fact IS the second point of the original post.. Whining in the textbox; remember? And.. how much BETTER it is to do it HERE on the BBS and NOT in the text buffer on-line.
Finally; the other point made and repeated twice... THIS IS BETA. A/C flight models ARE NOT FINISHED. The Developers are flying almost every day and night, and are exceptionaly competent at what they do.
So; regarding my 'Lame' attack on poor whining Fishu; well; tit fer tat.. He decided to lump me in a class of pilots under heading "dweebstang driver" (without checkin the scorecard system he seems to treasure) I felt it was appropriate ta post his scores; call black black; and let the folks make up their OWN minds based on what they have seen and heard. (ad nasuem (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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LOL you guys are killing me LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you guys aren't complaining about my B17 then you're complaining about my P51 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ROFL! (wipes lauing tears from his eyes)
------------------
-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
15th Air Force
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Fishu!! Well now.. since yah stuck yer neck out; allow me ta finish the job proper-like. First time thru, I just gave yah a little heat. Now I get ta FLAME yer heiney. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Something I ain't really had a chance ta do since I wuz a staffer on the CS FSCombat forum many many years ago....)
__________________________
FISHU: Hang: you don't seem to know anything about me..
__________________________
A mite more than yer scores reveal.. recall my hopping on your case BIG TIME fer ackstarring with a B25 over in Warbirds? You were a score hound then.. and worse; yah did it with otto. Tsk Tsk!
____________________________
FISHU: I flew last time +30k when I chased 36k B-17 just for waste of time and used whole Fw190s fuels for it (realistic ceiling for B-17 huh?)
__________________________
Worse.. yah pissed and moaned in the textbox fer 45 minutes during that chase.. and why were yah chasing the buff? No targets lower? And of course.. never able to pass up an oportunity to whine; yah start with the B17 flight models. Whatsamatta? yer favorite food gettin tuff ta kill?
______________________
FISHU: My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, which still seems to be way below stangs and spitfries.
______________________
LOL! Ok; below Stangs and Spits?? (how many of u guys see spits up there??) I fly alot.. and most AC I find at this alt are 'In Transit' buffs and escorts.. and score dweebs. Hate ta be the one that tells yah.. but the fights are usually to be had at a lesser altitude. I sure ain't gotta go up there ta find the enemy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And if I did find a spit at 30K he'd be outta gas. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
____________________________
FISHU: I run only if I am going to have some superior numbers agains't me.
I fly most of the time alone, not with some friendly gang bangers behind me.
___________________________
Well of course you RUN from superior numbers.. yer a score-hound! And what about this squad of yours.. as CO, don't yah have at least a FEW guys willin ta fly with yah? One of the things that made the LW A/C so very potent was it's use with a wingman.. but keeping a wingman alive might cramp yer style... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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FISHU: If I've flown P-51D, I know how to compare it to other planes.
In P-51D I don't do 5k extends or such, I fight till I kill enemy or get underdog when cavalry arrives to help my target.
_______________________
Well; there's a few ways to interpet this.. your first word is "IF" (which significantly changes the meaning) then I gotta say.. yah just ain't qualified to critique the plane. (BY YOUR STANDARD: PAL) The second half says that yah fly the plane the way yah fly the FW or 109.. as a scorehound. Yah RUN when overmatched. No shame in that... but lets not call the Mustang a "Runstang" if yah use those tactics yerself. FYI I have used a 5k or longer extend.. to cool the engine; to gain alt; to pull the target away from his acks.. or just take a leak. Are yah pissed because yer adversary out-thought yah.. or out-fought yah? Seems ta me; either way.. yer just whining.
_____________________________ __
FISHU: Next time DO NOT say a word about my fighting style if you don't know anything about it. (obviously you don't)
Theres enough guys already telling me about 30k flying when I barely ever even go to close those levels.
_____________________________
Whotsa matta boy.. somebody else givin yah some grief? LOL. Some rep you got. It's obvious I didn't give it to you.. till yah piped up here; I've pretty much ignored you. Can't stand the heat... get outta the kitchen.
You can say anything yah like about my style.. on the BBS where I can answer them in context. And Vice Versa. I don't give a rats behind about yer opinion on our respective scorecards. (I assume u don't either) And yer incessant whining on line is tiresome. So Instead of grousing at yah on-line and compounding yer mistake I brought it here; where it belongs.
I DO give a damn about my team; my squadmates; my wingman and my prefered sim; the guys that are investing their OWN MONEY and time in creating it and the guys who are conributing on a postive level to the quality of play while on line and off. Get the point? Use the BBS to air yer beefs about the sim and stay outta the textbox with the whining.
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FISHU: I Can say that I do turn alot and maneuver very much, because I like to take plane to its limits.
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Frankly; I don't believe it. If yah did; you'd be sportin a few more deaths on that scorecard of yours; would't you? Frankly; gettin outta the furball alive is the second biggest challenge in the sim.. and if yah was in 'em we'd know.. just by lookin at that scorecard. Be honest with yerself Fishu; yer a score-hound. And that's ok. But that scorecard DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN EXPERT PILOT, qualifed to bemoan the characteristics of an adversary AC in a beta simulation.. yer motives are suspect. It just makes you an excellent score-hound. So; be proud; yah have a fantastic score. And thats just what it is.. Fantastic. Fantasy. And pure smoke and mirrors. (of course; this is just MY opinion; I could be wrong. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
_____________________________ ___
FISHU: Btw. I like more fightning below 10k than above it
_____________________________ ____
LOL.. can't pass this one up either.. tell me; do you have trouble reading your own posts?? I only ask this because one of your previous statements in the very same post said "My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, which still seems to be way below stangs and spitfries." Well.. if yah like fighting below 10k.. whatcha doin up there? Seems ta me that's a whole lot more dive than a 109 or FW likes; and like tits.. more than a mouthfull is just wasted. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mr. Fishu.. I have no personal beef with yah.. this is just 'buisness'; the buisness of promoting a sense of fair play and comraderie amongst those of us who take flying more seriously than we take our wives shopping habits. There is a lot of satisfaction to be had in this sim; and if yah invest the time and energy you have wasted in whining and applied it to learning how to fly yer 190 or 109 as well as Hendrix could play a guitar then you'd be a happy camper. There are those among you (LW prefrence pilots) that have.. and do exceedingly well. And when they speak up; I listen closely; and ask respectful questions. Hristo I cannot comment about.. we apparently fly from diffent time-zones. He certainly has far more credibilty than you do at this point; and I do listen closely to what he has to say. And he says this is BETA (as I did) and it will change.
On the other hand, TOWD and I have had many many encounters, and I think he has true talent; can fly that 109 and FW very well.. he gripes all the time too; but I respect the guy cause he's demonstrated to me (and others) his willingness to run into the furball and give it his best shot. He don't give a damn about scores either.. he just want's to win the fight he's in. He howls like mad when he's hit but he's always pluggin away; tryin for the kill. THIS IS A FIGHTER PILOT! WORTHY OF RESPECT! Salute TOWD. He's doin the 'homework'; Yer Just gripin cause yer scorecard would look better if yer arch-adversary A/C (Mustang and Spitfire & B17) got de-fanged to cessna status. (again, this is just my opinion; and I could be wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Finally.. my apologies; this got ugly; It need not have. Certainly; I am responsible; and I accept the mud that will come my way from this post... but I think it needed to be said; and I'll take the lumps.. gladly. I hope we meet in the air; you can obtain yer just desserts at that time.. if yer good enuff.
SALUTE!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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WOO HOO HANG!
(sits back and roasts a couple of hot dogs in the flames) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
15th Air Force
-
-floo-, pass me one of those hotdogs, they look well done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
hmmm.. the beers aint guna stay cold for long in here ....hehehe.
-
I see it now...
The Big Fight Live
"The big mouth takes one the huge head.."
Tickets $4.00/£8.00 payable to
dotsie@hotmail.com
( Fishu v Hang )
Dotsie. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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That'd be sweeeeeeeeeeet. I'll let yah keep the usal 15%. Proceeds to the Mustang Defense Leauge. Cserve rules.. level co-alt pass, guns cold. We'll say 10k since he says he like ta fight low. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Since yer the agent; I'll let yah book the arena. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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hangtime: as the guys at HTC have said repeatedly, damage modelling is currently completely generic. damage is the same for ALL planes currently. everything you said in this regard sounds nice but just proves that you're pulling this stuff out of your prettythang instead of basing it on fact. :-)
investigating the turning discussion, i have personnally tested the 51, going a little over 400kts i quickly lowered a notch of flaps, rolled wings 90 degrees and pulled back. i instantly blacked out, held the turn for a while, and released. when i came to i had turned around 200 degrees, so i plugged all the info (average speed, estimated time in turn, radians of turn -1 radian is about 57 degrees- etc.) into my handy-dandy HP-48GX calculator and solved for G. guess what? i had made a 17 to 25G turn! that sounds a lot like UFO status to me!
-shower
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Hangtime, i just checked your kill stats. in the p51 you have a 1.9 to 1 kill ratio. excellent. for all other fighters combined you have a 0.7 to 1 kill ratio, which is well below average. i guess that whole "it's not the plane, it's the pilot." story was just that: a story, once again not based in fact. :-)
-shower
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Ouch! That pesky ol" math.
I"ll have a winersnitziel please.
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*yawn*
// -nr-1-
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Shower.. yes; as i have said repeatedly.. it's beta flight model; and as you point out, "same acroos the board". And any other plane in the sim will do that same unreal Blackout turn.. not a Mustang Exclusive.
as for Scores.. again; I ain't a score dweeb. Don't give a rats behind. And if yer checkin scores fer "Hangtime' check again for 'Hang'. I believe you'll find the "Hangtime' persona was checkriding other AC.. and the 'Hang' persona pretty much exclusively flys the P51.
Hang (who am us anyway?)
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Hangtime,
He he, I made there over 50 streak in P-38J, then I used nose guns of B-25 to have some fun in furballs. (yes yes, the ones with manual aim and shoot, while otto sleeping)
Did I? sure don't remember that I did whine for that 45 minutes...
Ask Fariz about spitfires with altitudes, he has caught me from lower already twice, second time with P-51 and La-5, I were below them all. (lots traffic above 20k?)
Superior numbers are same as 4 or more enemies against your single lone plane, no need to feed them with easy kills.
talking about "if", well what is that mumbling coolio talking of yours then?
"yah" "ta" "yer".. honestly, you sound like an idiot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have you ever thought of using WEP only when you need it? I don't burn my WEP in fight all the time, only when I need it badly.
I won't talk about your style, because I don't know your fight style for sure.
I don't want to annoy people by saying all the time they fly like this and that and dont do this and that..
I keep surviving alone more harder than in a furball where enemy has alot other targets to go for.
I am sorry if I've been too hard to shoot down and I've managed to gather up too big scores, looks like you have a trouble with it. (jealous or just pissed of being shot down too many times?)
My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, but I like more fightning below 10k.
If you don't already know, fight/flight are two different words.
Mr. Hangtime.. it sure looks like you have some personal beefs, when you go so personal that you try to tell your own fictions against the truth.
Anyway, what makes you so sure of all that what you're speaking of?
ohh.. one question, are you one of those americans who keeps going and going after one thing after they hear a rumour and two?
Seems typical to me, making things bigger than it really is.
You'd be surprised if you would know how I dogfight with 109 or 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You can ask Camel or Bytor, I guess they have seen some of those fights and have a fair opinion of it.
Btw. long long time ago I could had join to Pale Horses, in WarBirds.. :>
..and thats it, if you cant talk without your own fictions about my flying style, fightning style, i can't think about talking with you no more, because its no worth to try speak for a rock.
I keep myself skilled flight simulator pilot, which I have succeeded with years of my own training and intrest into taking less popular planes into their limits.
No need to flame this, everyone is skilled pilot after few years.
..and ya'll stinking amateurs who can't be from being jealous and tries to mess up with their fictions, shut up. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<The end of the imperium strikes back>
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" You imply 109 uses subsonic rounds ?"
The 109 and spits used 30 cal class round that have a short ballistic curve.
The 50cal round only had to fly within 18 inchs of a human head or canopy to blow out the ear drums of the pilot, from the shock wave it creates.
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investigating the turning discussion, i have personnally tested the 51, going a little over 400kts i quickly lowered a notch of flaps, rolled wings 90 degrees and pulled back.
====
Shower, if you were worth the salt on your balls you would have performed this same test with all other fighters modeled in AH and posted the results. Until then your post has no real value.
Yeager
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FROM A "VICTIM's" POINT OF VIEW....
Thought I could help put this in proper prospective for all of you. I've flown online for probably 3 yrs now (mainly AW) and came to this sim with a reasonable ACM capability,SA and T&B skills...for the enviornment I learned in.
I've been killed by EVERYONE who's any good numerous times and can comment on the thread here from the proper prospective.
1) Is the Mustang "overmodeled" ... not much if at all according to everything I can find.
2) Pilot ability in AH is a huge component of the game..as it SHOULD be. IN AW I've killed numerous pilots who are MUCH better than I because of an advantage in E and/or alt. IMHO the plane makes to much differance in AW. Here I've found the balance to be much more in line with what I believe to be correct. 90% pilot 10% plane.
I've been waxed by both Hang and Fishu and from my perspective there's little differance...both of you push your advantage hard and extend when prudent. My only squeak with either of you is you dont miss AT ALL. I'm tired of opening up at 300 and ghosting rounds thru someone (10bears told me last night sights are fubar this patch) don't know if true...but "recalibrated" per his reccomendation and hits went up.
With the exception of the 205 (which seems to have legit FM issues) all these are "Uber" planes...the best there respective nations could produce for the tasks at hand. It's those Uberpilot's that I want remodeled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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"Mr.Ed, 2-3k? hah! what have you been using, some modern modified .50 caliber gun,
with some depleted uranium rounds or what those were? "
Nope the Browning M2 was blueprinted in the 1890s by Mr Browning himself and built in the 1930s, It is the same gun that was used on 17s, track mounted in NAM, and currently. Heck the Navy uses the same gun today (9 of them on the Victory class Aircraft carriers as anti-pirate guns, which they engage at inside of 1 mile range. This is SOP today.
Yes the round has changed, we now (for last 20 years or so) Use a SLAP round, but still use the WWII round also.
"I've even heard of B-17 gunners beind told not to shoot beyond 1000 yards, just to
conserve ammunition."
The reason for this was that the jerries would up many A/C and the concentration of rounds at close range would go through several A/C if bunched together.
We have a 17 tail gunner in our AW3 squadron & me uncle was on a 17 in the 8th.
".50 caliber has less effective range than heavy cannon ammo. (not to talk about how they blow)"
Not true sir, the 50 cal has the longest trajectory of any "small arms" In fact the longest sniper shot in history was with a WWII M2 in Korea, at a little over a 1/4 mile (2-3K),single shot with a 30 power scope.
As far as "blow" you must understand that a cannon shell and the 50 cal work on different principals. The cannon round hits, explodes, then does damage by moving pieces through the vehicle hit. The 50 cal round uses its kenetic energy to displace parts of the target vehicle and using them to rip it a part.
"Don't go compare modern M2<something> with modern ammunition, to something that was its older model from WW2, with ammunition of that time."
Like I said, with the exception of the SLAP round which came shortly after WWII, the round remains the same, or as of the time I retired from the weapons field in the US Army in 1990. I had fired and worked on all these different 50 cal guns at one time in my hitch. Be it air, ground, and yes even sea.
Also If you have ever seen a P-51 50 cal, and the 50 cal chain gun in the turret of a M-60a1 tank, you would note they are the similar reciever and the MILSPEC number for the round is close to the aircraft one.
Which means the tank gun is a sister to the aircraft gun. BTW this gun uses a slightly shorter round than the M2.
Which I originally thought was the reason for the shorter distance in flgiht sims. If you watch gun cams of aircraft hitting ground targets (my fav in 51 hitting train) I would say a 1/4 mile 1200-1800 yards is a fair guess.
Having talked to the WB staff about the weenie power of thier 50 cals, and being told that yes they did tune it down, to make things "equal". Is why I tell the good folks at HTC, not to make it equal, but give the allies and the 50 cal its punch.
Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight
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K/D 0.7! Way below average! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Holy smokes! I suck at this sim!! All that time I thought I was having fun, I was actually sucking!! Well HT is gona hear about this! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I don't believe the K/D ratio should be a measurement of how good a pilot is. Sure the K/D is somewhere on the scale, but to bring up someone's K/D in an attempt to determine the quality of the pilot can be very misleading.
I believe my K/D is around 0.7. If this makes people believe I am a below average pilot, then so be it. Come on down to treetop and bring it on baby, because I am an easy kill. You may shoot me down, but you're gona have one hell of a fight on your hands doing it!!
To the tune of Walker: Texas Ranger:
"When your high or low in Knightland look behind you;
Cause that's where Swager, in his Spit, is gona be"
Damn! Im in the wrong business! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS Hangtime! That was a great post!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"When your dead, your dead! So shaddup!!"
Ahh! Ya crack me up!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Damn Ghostrider! This bogey is all over me!!
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 12-28-1999).]
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Ah but Mr. Ed, as an ex-military man, you yourself should know that there is quite a difference between "maximum" range and "effective" range.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Ah, another morning spent channel-surfing the flame wars here at AGW...
What's that? This isn't AGW??? The hell you say! It looks like a duck, and it smells like a...
Oh. Sure enough. NOT AGW. I don't get out enough (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Let me just get this straight tho. You guys ARE actually arguing about a FREE simulator which doesn't have its final flight models in place yet, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Lucky for Pyro he has all you guys to explain to him what the proper performance parameters for all these planes are. Lord knows he probably doesn't have much in the way of accurate data (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
OK, back to your regularly scheduled pilot-griping. Heck, I don't even know which UBB I'm at anyway! (And soon, neither will you!)
Sure wish that durn Macchi wasn't so undermodelled tho. It shore do got a purty mouth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
--jedi
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"Let me just get this straight tho. You guys ARE actually arguing about a FREE simulator which doesn't have its final flight models in place yet, right?"
Here.
[curly passes a box of Depends to Jedi]
Laugh your bellybutton off like I've been.
[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 12-28-1999).]
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Verm, dang tootin' I know.
Effective range is where you shot him down from.
Max range is where he shoulda gone down from :-)
All military weapons are rated for effective, max effective and max ranges.
Some are rated, shoulder fired, stationary mounted, or airframe mounted.
IE:
The M-60 belt feed MG has a max range of 4400 yards
Its Max effective range, fixed mounted is 1800-2200 yards
It effective killing range is 1200-1800 yards.
Better be a dang good shot, hangin off the side of a huey, 400-600 yards if you were lucky!
Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight
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EXCEPTIONAL post Hang! <S>
Couldn't have said it better!
-Ding
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Well.......
I just finished reading this entire thread at my office and I'm so exhausted I think I'm just going to go home.
I cant believe anyone would complain about any plane in any of the flight sims.
Just learn how to fly whats offered and enjoy yourself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I could have an absurd K/D if that was of the utmost importance, but like most, my mood changes from time to time and so does my flying style.
We all know each plane has its strengths and weaknesses and those who best master the knowledge of both will enjoy the greatest success....so....lighten up and fly nice and straight so I can killya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cyas Up!
Ice
P.S. Hang......make sure and give me credit in all future posts for your improved gunnery due to the gunsight I gave ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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On the other hand, TOWD and I have had many many encounters, and I think he has true talent; can fly that 109 and FW very well.. he gripes all the time too;
<ears perk-up, mouth begins to open>
NAH! Leave sleeping dogs lie! Nice fite TOWD (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
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investigating the turning discussion, i have personnally tested the 51, going a little over 400kts i quickly lowered a notch of flaps, rolled wings 90 degrees and pulled back. i instantly blacked out, held the turn for a while, and released.
Shower, forgive me if Im missing something here but you say you "..held the turn for a 'while'". How are you solving for G without timing how long it took you to turn 200 degrees? The G load is the angular accelleration requires a time factor to calculate the accelleration right? The only other way you can do that is by knowing the length of the arc you travelled.
Just curious.
-Ding
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Humble!! great post! I totally agree.. it's the pilot more than the plane.. and this is the first AC combat sim that gives the pilot the real challenge. Thank you sir; fer your kind words. As for the gunnery.. lord knows; theres probably no worse shot in this sim than me. I can solve the angles problems pretty well.. gettin saddled up is the least of my worries. Gettin a reasonable hit percentage is my biggest weakness.. can't say how many hundreds of times I've been in JUST the right spot; squeezed the tit.. and missed clean. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There's a neat solution to the gunnery given to me by ICE I'll post for yah.. It helped me some; but the majority of my problems with gunnery relate to genetics. More on the miracle gunsight later in the post.
Mr ED!! salute ta u sir!! When the knights come knockin I figure yer in there somewhere; so I go fer the Stangs first... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Awsome tech data on the .50's. Thank you for the education!
Way back when the men were still men and even HT's uber-sheep were nervous I watched a firepower demo while I was a lad getting my comeupance at the hands of various drill instructors. Awestruck I was and remain by the rushing ROAR of that single turrent mounted .50 as it cut a half-track to shreds with just one 5 second burst.. from 300 yards; longer ranges than I shoot from here with 6 of em. And then the the sudden silence; punctuated by that cheerful jingle of the brass casings dribbiling down.. gives me chills even now; thirty years later. Always felt the .50's as modeled here were as dotsie put it.. "spud guns"; and I'll also speculate that that old half-track had more armor than a 109. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thanks fer the confirmation. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Swager.. u don't suck at this sim.. just check the bullet riddled carcass of the guy yah just shot down for confirmation; NOT the scorecard. And score-cards are better at keepin track of baseball players than pilots that like ta furball. Are yah havin fun??? Good!!.. means yah ain't checked the score lately. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Soon as yah let that damn score card run yer game the fun goes away. Next thing you know, yah find yerself unable to resist whining in the text buffer... DON'T DO IT MAN! Resist the darkside! Let the score-dweebs get assimilated.
Fishu.. hey just wonderin.. you French-Canadian?? Oh.. and yah fergot ta ridicule my incessant and improper use of semi-colins. (nyyyyahhh nyah!)
ROFL Jedi!!.. hey; sure beats the hell outta Oprah don't it?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Curly!! Yah know.. I can help, doode! I get Depends wholesale now.. part of my AARP package. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Highya Dingy! thanks fer the kind words. I truly enjoy watchin yah fly that 190 of yours... between you and me we get em commin and goin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) When the 190 and P51 wade in to a furball together "Nobody gets out alive" seems ta be the order of the day. I love it when yah drag UP. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Finally .. ICE!! My mentor; my giver of the BEST DAMN GUNSIGHT ever mounted on the dash of my plane... THANK YOU. I'm not worthy... yes; the sight has greatly improved my accuracy.. but man cannot kill by spud guns alone; so I often have to revert to the trick of landing a few hits and then flyin the poor sod into the ground ta get the kill. Oh well... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
For the good news to all you out there.. the gunsight ICE gave me is a simple 5 pixel cross in the center of the sight. At game resolutions this translates into a bright dot dead center in the gunsight; without any rings; crosshairs or other chic parphenalia. Defection shooting improved too.. and for the life of me.. sans gizmos and all.. I don't know why. But it works. Just call up any ol gunsight from the sim into a graphics editor and erase all the eye-teasing clutter; pop in a 5 pixel cross like this; + and yer in buisness. I'll make you all the same offer he made me.. if yah don't like it; I'll buy it back for the same price you paid. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If yah don't have a graphics editor or all this seems too tedious or technical; just email me (address in my profile here, use subject GUNSIGHT so I'll open it and read it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) and I'll send yah mine. Send your thanks to ICE.. Thank U ICE! Salute, Mighty 13th!
Keep checkin yer high six gents... yah never know when the score-hounds are gonna show... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Can you guys keep your posts to 2 or 3 lines at a time? It takes too long to read otherwise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)...
Ex.
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One last post then,I have to get back to flyin' been spending hours in the BB, and not flyin' (not good)
I recieved a signed copy of Pappy Boyinton's book Baa Baa Black Sheep for Christmas. (yes I know he has pasted, my mother found it in a collectors bookstore in Seattle, where she and Pappy both are from)
For all you Corsair lovers (=DOA=) and others. I read this book in 2 days, good stuff in there! The first half was Flying Tiger days, the middle 1/4 was PTO and the last 1/4 was the 2 years he was a "Special Prisoner"
From page 152
" As I turned into his pal, I hade a head-on run with him. Black puffs came slowly from his 20mm cannons. His tracers were dropping way under my Corsair. I could see my tracers going all around this little zero. When I got close enough to him. I could see rips in the bottom of his fuselage as I ducked underneath him on my pass by. The little plane nosed down slowly, smoking, and crashed with a splash a couple of seconds later, without burning or flaming."
The point of this that (a) the 50s had more range (b) after the zero got to close he didn't fire again because the cannon shells have to spin a specified distance to arm, so he could fly underneath the plane, the zero's MGs being on top. (c) unlike some of the sims out there, (not AH because the guns aren't modeled yet) he didn't have to spay & pray 1/4 of his ammo away trying to know a plane of of the sky.
In fact if you ever fly AW3 where it takes 1/4 to 1/2 your ammo to kill a bomber. The WWII Ponys could engage a flock of bombers, shot some of them down, straif on the way home and still have some round left.
I'm getting off this dang 50 cal/cannon soapbox and climbing into my pony. Sorry for clogging up the BB and this Pony thread with my gun modeling ramblings.
There are some darn good posts in here, thanks guys for the info and your ear.
Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight
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"Black puffs came slowly from his 20mm cannons. His tracers were dropping way under my Corsair."
Shows that the slow (mv and rof) Type 99 20mm cannon have poor ballistics, making it harder to hit with, not that the .50 has more range.
"The little plane nosed down slowly, smoking, and crashed with a splash a couple of seconds later, without burning or flaming."
The pilot was probably dead/wounded - that's why he stopped shooting, not because he thought the cannon shells wouldn't arm at close range.
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yep juzz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) i guess NOBODY would release the trigger in such a situation .. i mean a bird can kill a pilot why not an unarmed cannon slug.
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"Shows that the slow (mv and rof) Type 99 20mm cannon have poor ballistics, making it
harder to hit with, not that the .50 has more range."
Pappy had already fired, his 50s had hit home, and yes the pilot was most like dead.
and the 20mms were out of range.
Mr.Ed
Pony Driver
Knight
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Mr.Ed, did I hear you saying zero, what model, early or late?
Early models had low velocity cannons, which sure does suck (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Like in early 109s, which had MG-FF, if I now spell it right...
If you compare Hispano (brits lil' 20mm toy) to 12.7mm Browning M2, I think you would see Hispano have better range and so on..
Hispano has very good punch in it, which will shoot those 20mm shells very far away, even longer distances than 12.7mm bullet, because it has more mass in it, with closely same velocity as 12.7mm.
20mm also has better effect than 12.7mm from long distances, when it has bigger mass and explosive.
What do you do with bullet that just stucks into the airframe, making little hole, if you can have a bullet which makes bigger explosion while in that little hole (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
About ranges and other blahblah.. you can have a look on tank guns.
Which makes up for more effect/range, 37mm or 50mm?
or 50mm vs. 75mm?
(why do we do bigger than .50 caliber ammunition then, if .50 caliber is more effective from range than 20mm?)
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"Mr.Ed, did I hear you saying zero, what model, early or late?"
Fishu,
Pappy didn't even get to the Pacific until mid 1944, and didn't start flying an F4U1D until they first were available, so I'm thinking it was at least an -6 model Zeke.
I liked your blah blah blah comment. I think we should wait until the modeling comes out. By now HTC know of the 50 cal concerns!
This thread is to long, I'm done here really!
Mr.Ed
Pony Pilot
Knight
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thanks for the compliment hang. you drive me nuts somtimes but your right (have noticed you duke it out till the cows come home also odds be dambed also tho)
and yes i whine to much ,yep i said it. i had a devorce a few months ago (no excuse) and havent really been myself. but lifes gettin better for me and the dog. so i will try to put a sock in it online (no promises)
thanks for the kind attention.
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All a long time ago.... remember when it was so much fun?
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I can't believe we let this touchy feely twit into our squad.
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"remember when it was so much fun?"
Still is imo. I'm finding many good fights still. Both in the MA as well as the CT. Sure the HO's are up as some folks can't seem to get over that hump and actually try some ACM. And yes I've seen more pork&auger-suicide dweebs than there are kernels of corn in pigsh&t. But I take the kill award anyway ;) And often my online time is improved immensely if I just squelch channel one. Unless I truly want to hear bad ebonics, requests for fellatio, suggestions on the use of a vibrator and the inevitable family tree analysis of some peoples mothers. :)
Westy
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As always it appears what ever has most recently shot someone down....or they couldn't catch after engaging automatically becomes "The Uber Plane" of the moment.
The P51 accelerates poorly.......must be kept fast to ensure survivability in any engagement, and good SA is required to fly an energy fighter...which they all were by the way. I don't recall reading about very many engagements at 50 feet near an enemy base that lasted for very long :eek:
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... b.b.....buu.... but touchin and feelin fattys mom is WHY i'm in the squad... (wails) RIIIGHT???
FATTY'S MOM LOVES ME!!
*sniff*
... well, me and burritos. All beef burritos. And I like burying the Burrito. We're both happy.
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P-51D uber? That's a laugh.
I fly it a lot. When I DO fly something else, then go back to the P-51, I am amazed by several things:
The P-51D accelerates like crap. A 109 or a P-38 or a Spit feels like a rocket compared to the P-51D.
The P-51D also climbs like crap. This is a plane that even a Jug can almost keep up with in sustained climb. Add a DT or some bombs and it becomes a total pig.
The P-51D really can't sustain a turn. It turns well until its speed bleeds off, but if you get slow with an opponent you're in trouble.
Finally, the P-51 stalls very easily. Spits, 38's, F4U's, all of them are MUCH less prone to stalling than the P-51D.
Yeah, it's so uber. LOL! It's no more "uber" than a G-10 or 190D-9 or LA7 or N1K2 or Spit or any of the other common planes in AH.
What the P-51D has going for it is a superb combination of strengths--good highspeed maneuverability combined with good zoom climb and E retention. Unlike the FW's, which bleed E at high speeds, or the 109's which can't maneuver when fast, the P-51 can STAY fast and be effective at the same time. Finally, the P-51 has enough fuel to stay airborne a long time, which is important in AH's fuel-multiplied world. This fact alone probably contributes to alot of P-51D usage.
But get slow in it and you're dead. A low/slow P-51 is probably the easiest kill in AH. Even a 202 can better protect itself from a higher/faster enemy.
J_A_B
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Jab-
Place the post in the context of two years ago and you would understand the thread better. Back then it was untouchable when flown correctly. Somewhere in the 1.30 to 1.35 range it was pretty much a one-plane sim.
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Haven't read any replies just your post Hangtime. The P51 is a very very good plane in most aspects, if not all, good armement, climb (unless heavy on fuel of course) fast etc. It does turn well, very well sometimes specially with a notch or two flaps. To say it outturns Spits and similair is just plain BS from the people who say it, my guess it's some newbie niki/spit who just don't know jack **** about ACM.
It's a Dora basicly, slightly better climb and turn, guns wich are easier to hit with, but in number of hits make less dammage.
I, atleast not lately, have heard anything about Uber stang, nor do I hope to hear it since it is NOT an Uber plane. Speed alone does nt make a plane Uber.
See you in my Dora sights soon ;)
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Rgr that Wilbus.. this tread dates back at least 2 years.. was using the new BBS search engine, and figured I'd revist an old tread that highlights the old AH animosity between LW and Allied concerns and eventualy lead to the first 'Rumble'.
I wonder what became of some of the personalities from that old thread... "the good old days" :)
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LOL, The pony D of two years ago with the planes in that set, etc. was a different animal entirely. It was truly a dominant plane in its day. Then along came Big Blue to become the despised "uber machine" some months later.
Ahh, the good old days. :)
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Guys, remember that when this was posted AH was in v1.00 the v1.04 flight model that allowed TnB aircraft to do more than a few break turns was still 4 versions away and the planeset consisted of:
B-17G
B-26B
Bf109F-4
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Bf109G-10
C.205
C-47A
F4U-1C
F4U-1D
Fw190A-8
La-5FN
N1K2-J
P-51D
Spitfire Mk IX
In that context, the P-51D was, IMO, clearly the best fighter with the only real threat to it being the Bf109G-10.
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yes indeed it was! I thought this was a new thred though, didn't check date :)
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well i might be outta place here but aren't the ones whinning bout the 51's driving spits, niki's, and la7's...hmmm all i can say is whwhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... if it is so uber than get in it and show me how good you can do in it:p
White Tiger
(http://users.cnu.edu/~ebarney/cub.jpg)
btw i didn't read all of the posts in hear (too much) so sorry if someone else already said this ;)
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hang.. I believe that everything in your initial post is pretty much true. i have no problem with your assesment of the 51 so far as it goes but.....
You sidestep the real issue. The "problem" with the P51 is not that several other late war planes will give it a good fight (flight) if flown properly.... The problem is that it doesn't belong in the same arena (or area of the arena) as the early and mid war planes. this will only become more obvious as more and more early war planes are ineffectively introduced.
Another minor problem, but related to the main problem, is that the plane is boring. It flies, has to fly, in a completely different manner than the early and mid war planes. It is either not even in the same sim or, when it is, it is simply annoying to said ac. It is by no means alone in this.. the D9 and G10, lag and -4, tempest etc.. all fall into this category. You simply can't expect people to respect your skills when patience is the main one. Never turn, never really engage unless it is foolproof.. This makes for a seperatism in the arena.
As for the fragility... I shoot with fifties.. I kill a lot of different planes. 51's are pretty tough especially for a water cooled ac but... the most bogus are all the LW planes and the zeke. they are laughably tough. LW planes were fuel injected and fire traps. they were small with all their vitals in a very compact package... fifty API penetrates and should be very deadly against LW planes. Zekes lose fuel easily but it is extremely hard to get a kill on one with fifties. Spits are laughably fragile.. by far the easiest plane for me to knock down. Niks seem tougher than both hogs and hellcats.
lazs