Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Goth on April 02, 2004, 07:30:02 AM
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Train Bomb (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/04/02/spain.bombings/index.html)
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It is interesting that they found another potentially deadly bomb (imagine a high speed train derailment) after the change in government and the new government's decision to back off from the war on terrorism.
I guess the moral of the story is you cannot appease terrorists. If you are a soft target and they have the means to they will try to wreck havoc in your country.
Spain does not have the best history in its treatment of Muslims. After all they booted them all out and shut down all the mosques back a few hundred years ago. I am sure for that reason they will always be a target.
Lucky no one had to die this time.
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Lets wait a moment and see whats really going on before passing judgement. However if it is true, is anyone really surprised, we all know appeasement of evil in any form never works and it never will...
I want people to know that I lost a friend in GScholz over some rash and insensitive comments I made in a moment of selfish outrage over the Spanish election results last month, and that was and is painful for me. Yet in some ways I'm even more troubled by his apparent quick turn to denial over what seems to have happend now, for that's a far bigger problem for us all than even losing a friend. How does that saying go, "He who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it." :(
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Originally posted by Habu
Spain does not have the best history in its treatment of Muslims. After all they booted them all out and shut down all the mosques back a few hundred years ago. I am sure for that reason they will always be a target.
Lucky no one had to die this time.
didn't the Muslims INVADE spain
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Originally posted by Habu
It is interesting that they found another potentially deadly bomb (imagine a high speed train derailment) after the change in government and the new government's decision to back off from the war on terrorism.
I guess the moral of the story is you cannot appease terrorists. If you are a soft target and they have the means to they will try to wreck havoc in your country.
Spain does not have the best history in its treatment of Muslims. After all they booted them all out and shut down all the mosques back a few hundred years ago. I am sure for that reason they will always be a target.
Lucky no one had to die this time.
IIRC the new Spain government announced that Spain would have "back off" from War on Iraq not from war on terror.
And I dont see what you call appease to terrorists.
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Originally posted by Naso
IIRC the new Spain government announced that Spain would have "back off" from War on Iraq not from war on terror.
And I dont see what you call appease to terrorists.
Same difference.
Did you not read the terrorists remarks the next day about how they were going to leave Spain alone after that?
I am too lazy to google them up for you and I thind someone as obviously uninformed as you should do the research anyway as you may learn something.
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Originally posted by Naso
IIRC the new Spain government announced that Spain would have "back off" from War on Iraq not from war on terror.
And I dont see what you call appease to terrorists.
The muslims terrorists explict goual was to seperate Spain from the Iraq coalition, they succeded wonderfully.
If this bomb was installed by Muslim terrorists what would be the good of continuing your denial, other than perhaps ego preservation?
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Words without actions are worthless, time will tell.
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Originally posted by Habu
I guess the moral of the story is you cannot appease terrorists. If you are a soft target and they have the means to they will try to wreck havoc in your country.
Indeed.
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Neville would be proud.
Withdrawing your troops from what is perceieved in the region as an anti-Muslim war following a terrorist attack is appeasement no matter how you want to butter it up.
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Originally posted by Habu
Same difference.
Did you not read the terrorists remarks the next day about how they were going to leave Spain alone after that?
I am too lazy to google them up for you and I thind someone as obviously uninformed as you should do the research anyway as you may learn something.
Yeah those were the same terrorists that claimed responsibility for the power outage on the eastern seaboard.
Heheh, thier credibility is 0.
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The war in iraq has nothing to do with the war on terrorism.
Iraqis were not blowing themselves up in allahs name. They were from afghan. and saudi arabia.
Americans still cannot seperate the war with iraq with the war on terrorism. We invaded iraq because we thought they violated a UN resolution or something.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
The war in iraq has nothing to do with the war on terrorism.
Iraqis were not blowing themselves up in allahs name. They were from afghan. and saudi arabia.
Americans still cannot seperate the war with iraq with the war on terrorism. We invaded iraq because we thought they violated a UN resolution or something.
No, according to your earlier expert opinion, we invaded for oil. Keep your stories straight.
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Originally posted by Goth
No, according to your earlier expert opinion, we invaded for oil. Keep your stories straight.
I have never said that.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yeah those were the same terrorists that claimed responsibility for the power outage on the eastern seaboard.
Heheh, thier credibility is 0.
So now the madrid bombings werent done by muslim terrorists? You arent saying that, are you?
Thrawn I hope you are just confudsing your news stories on this one. There was one where one wacky group accepted rssponsibilty after the atacks, they lack credibilty as you said. However CNN reported that an al qaeda linked terror website in December spoke about attacks in Spain aimed at seperating spain from the Iraq coalition. Moreover Spanish authorities arrested a man who eariler in the year said that blood would flow excatly at the train station hit hardest by the attacks. These two are far more credible and a durect link to goals aimed at seperating Spain from teh Iraq coalition.
Whether any of US HERE think that iraq is tied into terror war is probably irrelevant, what is clear is that the islamic terrorists sure think see it that way and by giving up in iraq the new spanish government will be giving in to the terrorists...
I urge our european readers to be careful about using your great train system this following year, especilaly if you have elections coming up.... Whatver you may think and whatver fancy rationalization we apply here, the terrorists wont be so nuanced in their reflections. To them, spain has showed THEM that this tactic wins results in europe, they will doubtless try again... Good luck.
Peace in our time, indeed...
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Again, just for the sake of argument.
Imagine the bombings never happened and the results in Spain were the same.
We would withdraw our troops from Iraq, because that was a promise from the new government during the elections.
If that promise hadn't been made AND we withdrew our troops from Iraq, now that's appeasement.
Daniel
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So now the madrid bombings werent done by muslim terrorists? You arent saying that, are you?
Of course not. I'm saying that the group that declared a "truce" with Spain have no credibility an probably have nothing to so with the bombings.
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Again, just for the sake of argument.
Imagine the bombings never happened and the results in Spain were the same.
We would withdraw our troops from Iraq, because that was a promise from the new government during the elections.
If that promise hadn't been made AND we withdrew our troops from Iraq, now that's appeasement.
Daniel
Pepe and you disagree on the likely pre 311 election result. He says the current govt would win yiu aregue the socialists would win.
All the US stations reported that the current party was headed for a victory.
So there are disputes there...
Regardless your socialoist government will be foolish to withdreaw from iraq because they should know the terrorists will read that as victory. They will not be nuanced or particulalr in their analysis of WHY the spanish withdrew from iraq, they will just say its because of the bombings. So any withdreawl now after the bombings will be a genuine victory for them. You know that.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Of course not. I'm saying that the group that declared a "truce" with Spain have no credibility an probably have nothing to so with the bombings.
Thanks for clarification.
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PS: Spain is sending another 125 soldiers to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan...how is that appeasement?
Remember guys, what ever you do, NEVER let the facts get in the way of your biases. ;)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thanks for clarification.
NP. :)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
PS: Spain is sending another 125 soldiers to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan...how is that appeasement?
Remember guys, what ever you do, NEVER let the facts get in the way of your biases. ;)
The terrorists wont care, they will tout the much more significant Iraq withdrawl as a victory of their tactics... You know that.
Whatever the Socialists position on Iraq was before the bombings they must take the terror attack into account in any decison they actually make on iraq. If they withdraw they will hand the terrorists a victory - whatver rationalization we put on it here. However if they stay the course in Iraq they will have have defeated them beacuse they are not giving te terrorists what they expressedly asked for, a spanish withdrawal from Iraq.
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You cannot and will not appease terrorists. They will ALWAYS find something your country is doing that they do not like. They live to spread fear and discontent in any country they attack. As long as they can do this, then they will always do it regardless.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The terrorists wont care, they will tout the much more significant Iraq withdrawl as a victory of their tactics... You know that.
Probably, but luckily we know better. ;)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
I have never said that.
I wholeheartedly apologize. You did not say that, that was said by strk in another thread.
Thrawn, I do feel horrible for the people of Spain, those that lost loved ones and those affected by the tragedy. I am very pleased that Spain will continue the fight against terrorism in Afghanistan.
I was highly angered by this latest report of another bomb, even though I am not spanish, nor do I live in Spain. I have to agree though, like many in this thread, that the reaction to the previous bombing is a slight show of weakness, and I do not want to see a partner and ally weakened by terrorists.
We can't, for even one second, let those barbaric terrorists think that they have even won one battle.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The terrorists wont care, they will tout the much more significant Iraq withdrawl as a victory of their tactics... You know that.
Iraq was secular and not really a terrorism motivated war (no matter what the current administration says) The Taliban are a horribly oppressive muslim regime, which the terrorists side with. I could see where pulling out of Iraq wasn't enough appeasement, there will be a Muslim government installed there whether the Spanish are there or not. Fighting what is left of the Taliban and Al Queda in Afganistan could be seen as the more important thing to stop from a terrorist standpoint.
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Originally posted by Goth
I wholeheartedly apologize. You did not say that, that was said by strk in another thread.
Thrawn, I do feel horrible for the people of Spain, those that lost loved ones and those affected by the tragedy. I am very pleased that Spain will continue the fight against terrorism in Afghanistan.
I was highly angered by this latest report of another bomb, even though I am not spanish, nor do I live in Spain. I have to agree though, like many in this thread, that the reaction to the previous bombing is a slight show of weakness, and I do not want to see a partner and ally weakened by terrorists.
We can't, for even one second, let those barbaric terrorists think that they have even won one battle.
International terrorim and the war with iraq have nothing to do with each other.
Spain is a target because it is an easy one. Security in southern europe is not the greatest. Up untill 3/11 i would say that italy, spain and a few other countrys thought they would not be targets.
What scares me is the olympic games in greece. Greece, where you can buy off the entire police force for 10 US dollars.
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Originally posted by Munkii
Iraq was secular and not really a terrorism motivated war (no matter what the current administration says) The Taliban are a horribly oppressive muslim regime, which the terrorists side with. I could see where pulling out of Iraq wasn't enough appeasement, there will be a Muslim government installed there whether the Spanish are there or not. Fighting what is left of the Taliban and Al Queda in Afganistan could be seen as the more important thing to stop from a terrorist standpoint.
An Al Qaeda linked website said in December of last year that there would be terror attacks directed at Spain to force them out of Iraq. So, as I said earler, whther any of US believe Iraq has anything to do with the terror war is irrelevant, because the terrorists obviously think Iraq is a vital issue in their side of the terror war. So giving up in iraq is giving in to the terrorists.
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International terrorim and the war with iraq have nothing to do with each other.
Maybe to you, but the muslim terrorists would disagree.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Probably, but luckily we know better. ;)
We should know better yes, and so should do everything possible to not give the terrorists that chance to proclaim that victory. So I think Spain must stay in Iraq to do that.
It almost doesnt matter what we think, it maters that the the terrorists dont think that they won.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
International terrorim and the war with iraq have nothing to do with each other.
Spain is a target because it is an easy one. Security in southern europe is not the greatest. Up untill 3/11 i would say that italy, spain and a few other countrys thought they would not be targets.
What scares me is the olympic games in greece. Greece, where you can buy off the entire police force for 10 US dollars.
One point of view (http://centristcoalition.com/blog/archives/000553.html)
And another (http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200310210934.asp)
And I am sure we can unearth a dozen more instances that Saddam was backing terrorists.
On one hand I would like to disagree with you about Greece, but I am afraid that what you say there is true. I hope that the spirit of the Olympics will remain untouched, and that the world can unite in a peaceful competition. Damn, I sound like am optimist.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Maybe to you, but the muslim terrorists would disagree.
We are dealing with terrorists/guerillas there now, because our troops are easy targets. The reasons for going to war had nothing to do with it though.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
We are dealing with terrorists/guerillas there now, because our troops are easy targets. The reasons for going to war had nothing to do with it though.
So why did non-Iraqi terrorists attack in Spain and ask that Spain leave Iraq?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So why did non-Iraqi terrorists attack in Spain and ask that Spain leave Iraq?
One reason could be said, with Spain and the Coalitions involvement in Iraq a hardline Muslim regime (i.e. Taliban) is less likely to get into power as opposed to a softer Muslim regime. If they can get Spain, and ultimately the rest of the coalition forces out of Iraq, they could help install a "friendlier" government for themselves. Al Queada, and other terrorist organizations didn't really step up the attacks on the Coalition forces until most of the Baath party was eliminated. It could be looked at as they were waiting for them to be taken completely out before trying to sway opinion against the invaders.
This is all speculation, and none of us really will ever know unless we became a radical Islamic jihadist. :p
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You see how Iraq has a lot to do the terror war now...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You see how Iraq has a lot to do the terror war now...
No, the terrorists wouldn't have even given two ****s about Iraq had we not invaded.
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So you are saying that Iraq today is not part of the war on terror even though terrprists are killing people because of Iraq?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You see how Iraq has a lot to do the terror war now...
NOW is the keyword.
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Originally posted by Habu
I am too lazy to google them up for you and I thind someone as obviously uninformed as you should do the research anyway as you may learn something.
I may be sometime so upset to let personal attacks slip under my finghers and bypass the usual re-reading of my posts.
You seem to have it as standard, personaly, or nation-wide.
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I must stay calm, and be rational.
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The main difference between the majority of Europeans posters and the majority of US posters here is in a basic fact:
the perception about the War, invasion, call as you want, of Iraq.
In the US point of view, Iraq war is part of war on terror.
In the Euro point of view Iraq war IS NOT part of war on terror.
Understanding this is a good start to find a common ground to start discuss, and stop pissing each other.
Unless someone here have a personal agenda to create new enemies.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The muslims terrorists explict goual was to seperate Spain from the Iraq coalition, they succeded wonderfully.
If this bomb was installed by Muslim terrorists what would be the good of continuing your denial, other than perhaps ego preservation?
90% of the spanish population opposed war in Iraq. The government screwed themselves even more when they tried to cover it up and blame it on the ETA.
Are you suggesting that 90% of the Spanigh population, or anyone that's opposed the war, is a terrorist sympathizer?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you are saying that Iraq today is not part of the war on terror even though terrprists are killing people because of Iraq?
Yes I'm saying that, because it isn't part of the war on Iraq. If there were Iraq's blowing themselves up in our cities or our train stations (no offense to our Spanish neighbors) then they would be part. As it is, it is non Iraqius blowing up the civilians, and Iraquis and other groups blowing up our combatants. Therefore they are not terrorists, but resistance.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So you are saying that Iraq today is not part of the war on terror even though terrprists are killing people because of Iraq?
Only because we set the precedent.
-SW
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Muslim extremists are mulitantional, and it was muslim extremists who blew up the trains in madrid, it was muslim extremists who posted on their websites in December that they would attack attack spain in order to break it frok the coalition.
Why did the muslim extremists attack Spain? Why did muslim extremists explicityly threaten Spain with terror on the basi of Spain being part of the Iraq coalition. You know why.
Because the terrorists see Iraq as part of the war on terror, whatver we think is probably irrelevant. The Terrorists clearly see it that way. Iraq is a part of war on terror.
BTW notice how Munkii has legitimized the Iraq terrorists who he himselef has stated want to put in an opreessiove extremist muslim regime in Iraq and have killed hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilans as some sort of freedom fighters... I think thats sad..
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The Terrorists clearly see it that way. Iraq is a part of war on terror.
Yup, because we made them see it that way. So, we really have ourselves to blame for the terrorist attack in Spain.
-SW
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Originally posted by Naso
I must stay calm, and be rational.
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The main difference between the majority of Europeans posters and the majority of US posters here is in a basic fact:
the perception about the War, invasion, call as you want, of Iraq.
In the US point of view, Iraq war is part of war on terror.
In the Euro point of view Iraq war IS NOT part of war on terror.
Understanding this is a good start to find a common ground to start discuss, and stop pissing each other.
Unless someone here have a personal agenda to create new enemies.
And the majority of the internatioal islamic terrorists are quite clear on this issue, for them the war in Iraq is part of their terror war.
Do you understand that?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Yup, because we made them see it that way. So, we really ourselves to blame for the terrorist attack in Spain.
-SW
LOL :)
I blame the full devestation of WW2 on the British and French for finally standing up to Hitler and his outrageous behavior and violation of past agreements....
But seriously it wasnt an American who set those bombs off, it was a bunch of isalamic terrorists who couldnt now be happier at their awesome sucess in breaking Spain away from the coalition.
WTG Azziz, Ahmed and Talil...
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Right, well, we still have yet to find the WMDs which actually make them there violations.
Blame Spain, but turn a blind eye towards our own government... whatever floats your boat.
Anyway, I'm out for the weekend.
-SW
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300,000 Iraqis massacred by a despotic regime equals a terrorist act. The paying of rewards to the families of suicide bombers in Israel equals support of terrorism.
A bigger crime would have been to allow these things to continue. It would be the height of hypocrisy for us to decry the Holocaust and yet learn nothing from it.
It is laughable to suggest that we should have waited on permission and support from the U.N. That agency is a broken reed and has become the political tool of third world rogue regimes. Quite a number of industries and government leaders from the U.N.'s member nations were eye-deep participants in Saddam's economic and political machinations.
Sometimes it is in the best interests of the United States, and the world at large, for us to act like Cowboys.
Shuckins/Leggern
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Shultzie,
Go to http://www.google.com
Type in "Mass Graves of Iraq."
Surf the sites for an hour.
Then come back to the boards and continue to pontificate about the invasion of Iraq not being justified.
I have been monitoring the discussions about Iraq on these boards for months now, and I have yet to get a lucid response to that suggestion.
Or is the massacre of innocents not germaine to the point you're trying to make?
Shuckins
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Right, well, we still have yet to find the WMDs which actually make them there violations.
Blame Spain, but turn a blind eye towards our own government... whatever floats your boat.
Anyway, I'm out for the weekend.
-SW
I blame the terrorists for the deaths, they are the ones who push the button.
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Oh my, how clever.
It must be true what they say, that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
By the by, your smugness, I AGREE that action should be taken in Africa. In Sudan, and Ethiopia, and in whatever other areas where massacre and rape and slave trading happen to be taking place.
There...are you happy now?
Shuckins
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Originally posted by Shuckins
A bigger crime would have been to allow these things to continue. It would be the height of hypocrisy for us to decry the Holocaust and yet learn nothing from it.
Shuckins/Leggern
Oh but you did or do you not know your own country's history on the matter?
And i believe it was the UN that wanted to condemn Saddam after the Anfal Campaign and especially after the incident at Halajba, only to have the US say it would veto any sanctions in a sub committe.
A few months after the Halajba genocide teh US gave Saddam another billion in credit and squashed the emergency bill "The Prevention of genocide Act" in the house.
The US was Iraq's biggest trading partner during the majority of the genocide and you were saying about hypocrisy and the UN?
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Torque,
I stand by my original statement. It would have been a bigger crime to allow it to continue.
Or do you disagree with that?
It is a crime for any country to remain silent while acts such as that are being committed.
What actions did the Canadian government take to stop the genocide in Iraq?
There's plenty of blame to go around.
The U.S. has earned a certain measure of redemption because our government finally came to its senses.
Regards, Shuckins
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I hasn't been confirmed yet that there are anywhere near 300,000 dead people in mass graves.
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Thrawn,
The final number has not been confirmed yet because of the enormity of the task of digging up and identifying the bodies.
Human Rights Watch conservatively estimates at least 290,000 people are missing in Iraq.
USAID (U.S. Agency for International Development) reports that since Saddam was outsted 270 sites of mass graves have been reported.
Tony Blair puts the remains at 400,000.
William Haglund, an archaeologist for Physicians for Human Rights, says there are an estimated 300,000 missing...and that the identification process is a 50 year job.
CNN reported that an Iraqi forensic team expects to find 15,000 bodies at one grave site near Mahawil, Iraq, 55 miles south of Baghdad.
Archaeologists for Human rights estimates that during the Anfal Campaign of 1987-1999, Saddam's "Final Solution" to the "Kurdish question," 4000 villages were destroyed, thousands were deported, and as many as 182,000 disappeared. Young Kurdish women were kidnapped and sold to Egyptian night clubs.
An exact number may never be ascertained. Whether it was 1,000 or 1,000,000 the invasion that toppled Saddam was justified.
Schultzie, your anti-American diatribe is unseemly. We were in no danger of running out of oil before we invaded Iraq...If that is what you're referring to. The scenes of Shi'ite Iraqis rejoicing in the streets after Saddam's fall were genuine. Whether Saddam's overthrow was accomplished by Bush or Clinton makes no difference to me...it was the RIGHT thing to do. Period.
Shuckins
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wow, all I can say is....black helicopters and foil hats
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Originally posted by GScholz
Like I said ... it's a tragedy.
what's a tragedy?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Iraq was invaded because if you let Hussein get away with his switch to the Euro, other nations might follow his example. If that happened the United States of America would wake up one morning to find itself in economical ruin. It is only a matter of time, and the fall gets higher every day you postpone it by force.
To think that the US, or any other nation would unilaterally invade another nation to "save its people from a ruthless dictator" is so preposterously naive that I would be inclined to laugh if not for the tragedy that you and many others actually believe it.
There...are you happy now?
Sorry, but you need to be called out on this one.
First, where did you get the proof that this is why Iraq was invaded? And YOU would laugh at people that won't believe what you just posted? LOL... how ironic. You are so far out on a limb with that theory it isn't even funny.
Didn't you once say that you were not against invading Iraq, rather you were against the reasons listed?
Didn't the UN believe that Iraq had WMD and didn't they give Iraq "one last chance" to come clean? I guess the USA was putting pressure on the UN so we could keep buying oil with US dollars.
Oh, is it not true that Iraq had kicked out all the UN inspectors. Is it not true that the ONLY reason on God's green earth that Iraq allowed inspectors back in was that the USA put the REAL threat of force to him?
Some people are so consumed with hate/jealousy/ you name it, that they can't help but not see the forest for the trees.
Just sickening the lack of common sense and logic. Sickening.
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Didn't you once say that you were not against invading Iraq, rather you were against the reasons listed?
>>> Yes, and I obviously still am, for the same reasons.
They have a word for that...it called hypocrite.
How can you honestly justify this position?
Are saying that you basically agree with the UN assesment of Iraq's WMD, that you have no problem with the actual invasion of Iraq based on that assesment, but that, since the UN didn't approve, you are against the invasion of Iraq and therefore are unhappy about the fact that Iraq was invaded?
So you both approve and dissaprove of the invasion of Iraq?
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Wow Gscholz has seriously lost it...
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Shuckins, I'm aware of the situation and am open to the possiblity that SH had 300,000 people killed and that they are buried in mass graves.
All I'm saying is that it has yet to be confirmed. And so remains a possiblity and not a fact.
It's kind of like the difference between saying, "Iraq has WMD." and, "Iraq probably has WMD.".
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We backed saddam in the 80's, i'm sure he was pretty brutal then too. No mention of mass graves then. So now we use this moral pretense for an invasion. To me we went in to get saddam, his willingness to assassinate our president, invasion of Kuwait, and stability in the region was enough for me. This moral BS from the right is almost rediculous as it is hypocritical.
We got saddam, well done. Rebuild Iraq? Let them rebuild it themselves. We don't want to spend money here, but we want to send billions to Iraq. That's OUR money damnit!!
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Somebody hand that boy a handerchief so he can wipe the spittle off of his mouth.
Talk about vitriolic.
Shuckins
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Ain't it grand! More people have probably, throughout History, died in the name of religion.
It's not the religion.....it's the people with influence involved in that religion.
Kinda neat isn't it? The Grand Poova of the Alabaster Clam Religion can declare a Holy War.
Need more common sense and logic. Ain't gonna happen.
What also is kinda neat. One can start a religion based on the worship of diesel powered Volkswagons. What's really scary is that he'd prolly get some to join.
And....heck....if he got some to worship the diesel powered Volswagons, he'd have no trouble declaring a Holy War on Avon products.
What I'm saying is this.....there sure are a lot of nutcases on this planet. Some just regarded more highly then others.