Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on April 03, 2004, 12:13:49 PM
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sorry if this is a re-post.
SOLDIER'S LETTER TO JOHN KERRY
Dear Senator Kerry:
Since it has become clear that you will
probably be the Democratic nominee for President, I have
spent a great deal of time researching your war record and
your record as a professional politician. The reason is
simple; you aspire to be the Commander-in-Chief who would
lead my sons and their fellow soldiers in time of war. I
simply wanted to know if you possess the necessary
qualifications to be trusted in that respect.
You see, I belong to a family of proud
U.S. veterans. I was a Captain in the Army Reserve, my
father was a decorated Lieutenant in World War II, and I
have four sons who have either served, or are currently
serving in the military. The oldest is an Army Lieutenant
still on active duty in Afghanistan after already being
honored for his service in Iraq. The youngest is an E-4
with the military police. His National Guard unit just
finished their second tour of active duty, including six
months in Guantanamo Bay. My two other sons have served in
the National Guard and the Navy.
In looking at your record I found myself
comparing it not only to that of my father and my sons, but
to the people they served with. My father served with the
87th Chemical Mortar Battalion in Europe. They landed on
Utah Beach and fought for 317 straight days including the
Cherbourg Peninsula, Aachen, the Heurtgen Forest, and the
Battle of the Bulge. You received a Silver Star in Vietnam
for chasing down and finishing off a wounded and retreating
enemy soldier. My father earned a Bronze Star for single
handedly charging and knocking out a German machine gun nest
that had his men pinned down. You received three purple
hearts for what appear to be three minor scratches. In
fact, you only missed a combined total of two days of duty
for these wounds. The men of my father's unit, the 87th,
had to be admonished by their commanding officer because:
"It has been brought to our attention that some men are
covering up wounds and refusing medical attention for fear
of being evacuated and permanently separated from this
organization...." It was also a common problem for
seriously wounded soldiers to go AWOL from hospitals in
order to rejoin their units. You used your three purple
hearts to leave Vietnam early.
My oldest boy came home from Iraq with
numerous commendations and then proceeded to volunteer to go
to Afghanistan and from there back to Iraq again. My sons
and father have never had anything but the highest regard
and respect for their fellow soldiers. Yet, you came home
to publicly charge our fighting men with being war criminals
and to urge their defeat by the enemy. You even wrote a
book that had a cover which mocked the heroism of the United
States Marines who raised the flag on Iwo Jima. Our current
crop of soldiers has a philosophy that no one gets left
behind, and they have practiced that from Somalia to the
battlefields of the Middle East. Yet as chairman of a
Senate committee looking into allegations that many of your
fellow servicemen had been left behind as prisoners in
Vietnam, you chose to defend the brutal Vietnamese regime.
You even went so far as to refer to the families of the POWs
and MIAs as professional malcontents, conspiracy mongers,
con artists, and dime store Rambos.
As a Senator you voted against the 1991
Gulf War, and have repeatedly voted against funds to supply
our troops with the best equipment, and against money to
improve our intelligence capability. I find this
particularly ironic since as a Presidential candidate you
are highly critical of our pre-war intelligence in Iraq.
However, you did vote to authorize the President to go to
war, but have since proceeded to do everything you can to
undermine the efforts of our government and our troops to
win. Is this what our fighting men and women
can expect of you if you are their Commander-in-Chief? Will
you gladly send them to war, only to then aid the enemy by
undermining the morale of our troops and cutting off the
weapons they need to win?
Our country is at war, Senator, and as
has been the case in every war since the American
Revolution, a member of my family is serving their country
during the war. Now you want me to trust you to lead my
sons in this fight.
Sorry Senator, but when I compare your
record to those who have fought and died for this nation,
and are currently fighting and dying, the answer is not just
no, but Hell No!
Sincerely,
Michael Connelly
Dallas, Texas
February 14, 2004
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even if that is not a real letter, the points are pretty much valid and based on the known record of John Kerry.
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Where on earth does one dig up such obviously blatant propaganda? I doubt very much if the author is what they claim, merely someone churning out "letters" for a prescribed audience who lap it up without thinking.
For a slightly different view take a look at this article.
It may be as false as the letter to Kerry - but if it's true it's pretty disgraceful.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=507855
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Originally posted by NUKE
even if that is not a real letter, the points are pretty much valid and based on the known record of John Kerry.
If it's not a valid letter then why dress it up as one? If one has what one feels are valid arguments vs either of the candidates then say so point by point - writing a fake letter from a fake source is merely an insult to the intelligence of anyone who reads it and takes substance away from the author's argument.
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The kind of attack the Bu****es are conducting is insulting to every one of us who have served and bled for our country. It's obviously meant to counter Bush's own silver spoon fed "military record".
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Still doesn't change the fact that John Kerry did all of those things.
The funny thing is, it was John Kerry who decided to make Vietnam and his service a campaign issue. Bad idea when you are John Kerry.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
If it's not a valid letter then why dress it up as one? If one has what one feels are valid arguments vs either of the candidates then say so point by point - writing a fake letter from a fake source is merely an insult to the intelligence of anyone who reads it and takes substance away from the author's argument.
Im not sure if it's a real letter or not.
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Originally posted by Snork
The kind of attack the Bu****es are conducting is insulting to every one of us who have served and bled for our country. It's obviously meant to counter Bush's own silver spoon fed "military record".
Kerry has been touted as a war hero. Bush never was. The letter, real or fake, sentamental or propagandistic, is bringing attention to the fact that Kerry's status as a war hero is an insult to soldiers.
People who ignorantly accept his label as an honorable soldier and will vote for him based solely on that belief need to be educated.
If there is anything in that letter that misrepresents facts concerning Kerry's military record, I'd be very interested to see the proof. It's not slander if it's true.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Kerry has been touted as a war hero. Bush never was. The letter, real or fake, sentamental or propagandistic, is bringing attention to the fact that Kerry's status as a war hero is an insult to soldiers.
Yeah... damnit... we know what a hero (http://www.jessica-lynch.com/) looks like...
(http://www.jessica-lynch.com/images/0_22_lynch_jessica.jpg)
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Sandman, that girl never claimed to be a war hero, shame on you.
I hope she got a purple heart too though, because unlike Kerry, she was actually wounded.....and severly wounded.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Yeah... damnit... we know what a hero (http://www.jessica-lynch.com/) looks like...
Pretty thought-provoking response, Sandman.
I was just making a point, Sandman, and a valid one at that. People who are giving Kerry their support in part or in whole because of the popular misconceptions about his service history need to be informed.
Now that you mention it though, Lynch's injuries and experiences, however hyped by the media, were infinitely more profound than your candidate's.
Personally, I'd give my vote to Sen. Kerry based on his good looks before I would based on his sense of self-satisfaction from being a war-hardened combat vet.
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Oh, get off your high horses. You deride the nature of a decorated veteran's service simply because you don't like his politics.
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<----Has served his country proudly for 8 years. John Kerry (war hero or not) IS an insult to everyone who ever served. President Bush was in fact the "fortunate son" and never went.
There is nothing about that letter that is AT ALL unrealistic.
John Kerry wants to run as a war hero...that very idea insults most veitnam veterans.
that's not too much different than this: http://www.petitiononline.com/ltr2krry/petition.html
Libral attack mode: Ignore content because it's true and damaging....focus on the method of delivery to change subject. When all else fails call method of deliver fascist nazi.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Oh, get off your high horses. You deride the nature of a decorated veteran's service simply because you don't like his politics.
I don't like him because he's a proven two faced liar who is pushing his "war hero" image and making it a political issue. Kerry is the one who keeps bringing up his war record as a political lever, it's only fair that he be called out on his actual war record and his anti-military voting record.
The guy has no moral compass..... "anyway the wind blows, doesn't really matter" would be a fitting campaign slogan for him.
If I were scratched in a battle and never missed a day due to the injury, I would flat out refuse to receive a purple heart for it. This cupcake got 3 purple hearts in 4 months, missed a total of 2 days in the field, then used the 3 purple hearts as a ticket out of Vietnam.
Kerry then gets home and testifies falsley before congress that it was the norm for US army to kill, torture, maime and rape the Vietnamese.
Kerry is an insult to our nation and he will lose in a landslide. The American people are not as stupid as Kerry assumes.
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<--- Served 10 years and is more insulted by "veterans" questioning another's medals and wounds received in battle.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Oh, get off your high horses. You deride the nature of a decorated veteran's service simply because you don't like his politics.
High Horse? How the hell do you get that I'm speaking from a morally elevated position by saying that he's full of it. Unlike him, I have respect for people that risk their lives in the service of their country, whether they get injured in the process or not. Has he done more military service than myself? Yes. But to walk around with his chin high, accepting some sort of Hero Status is a sanctimonious, shameful appeal for publicity.
He's not just a plain and simple Veteran. He's a candidate for the presidency of MY country. The guy that's going to make huge decisions regarding the use of my tax dollars. I have every right to scrutinize his claims.
You know, it's ironic. I had two great uncles in the Red army who served for the duration of WWII, beginning to end. Anatoly and Nusin. One of them wasn't even issued a proper rifle when he saw his first day of action. One of them, who'd started the war as a 17 year old kid, was there the day Berlin fell. They both eventually moved to the states, as old men, and I got to see them very often and know them very well. Anatoly has never said a word to me about the war, so I had to get my stories from his wife and his son. One night about two years ago, Nusin sat down with me and talked for three hours about his experiences, until he got too tired and had to go lay down. My dad, who'd been in the room with us when he was talking, said to me later that he'd never heard him speak of the war prior to that night. Not once. That was the last time I ever saw Nusin. He died of cancer three weeks later.
Both men lived long lives after the war. Both heard requests for tales of glory and honor and sacrifice from the younger generations. Neither said a damned thing, with the exception of the one night where the man knew it was the last time anybody would ask him that question. The things he told me came with difficulty, and with tears.
Kerry is not cut from the same cloth.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Kerry is not cut from the same cloth.
How would you know?
You were not there.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
How would you know?
You were not there.
Seems to me he went home on a technicality, having suffered 'wounds' that cost him an average of 3/2 of a day in the hospital each.
Compare that with a guy that suffered a shrapnal wound that stunted the growth of one of his legs, leaving a inch in a half disparity between the right and the left by the time he was done growing, and STILL went back to recieve two more, less severe wounds, I'd say I'm fairly certain.
I'm also fairly certain that it's cold on the moon.
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Compare that with a guy that went AWOL.
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Originally posted by hawker238
Compare that with a guy that went AWOL.
Does he brag about it and use it as a method to relate to his voters?
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Some of you really can't seem to grasp the concept of irony.
At least Kerry has a war record. Mr Connelly the letter writer clearly hasn't even seen combat. Frankly if I was a Vietnam veteran I would find that letter insulting. Read any biography of a combat soldier or sailor in Vietnam and you will find that they were in combat almost daily for their tour. Day after day. Anyone who was hit three times in combat however minor was seeing a lot of action.
I would recommend the following books for those of you who think Vietnam was some kind of cakewalk. Nam - Mark Baker, If I die in a combat zone - Tim O'Brien, Low level hell -Hugh Mills, Welcome to Vietnam macho man - Ernest Spencer.
Get off your high horse Nuke. After reading those books if you still think you wouldn't do ANYTHING to get out of combat in Vietnam then you're crazy! That 'cupcake' was hit three times in combat. It was his ticket out of there and he took it. Any sane man would.
Kerry then gets home and testifies falsley before congress that it was the norm for US army to kill, torture, maime and rape the Vietnamese.
It may not have been the norm but it happened. Many veterans said as much and it's well documented. You can of course live in denial if you like.
Bush may or may not win the election but it won't be a landslide. It's clear you fear Kerry and attacking his war record is over compensation for Bush's lack of one. That is irony.
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Couldn't have said it better, cpxxx.
Pork: Lets put that aside. Bush went AWOL, Kerry went to Nam. Kerry is the obvious coward and traitor here.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Does he brag about it and use it as a method to relate to his voters?
LOL, who would brag about it?
Seems some would rather hide the facts and sweep it under the rug.
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From the patterns seen here, it seems most of you Bush supporters would be tripping over yourselves in your support of
Kerry had he been a Republican instead. Had Bush been a Democrat, you'd be vilifying him as if he were the Anti-Christ.....
all based on service record. Talk about spin:eek:
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Some of you really can't seem to grasp the concept of irony.
At least Kerry has a war record. Mr Connelly the letter writer clearly hasn't even seen combat. Frankly if I was a Vietnam veteran I would find that letter insulting. Read any biography of a combat soldier or sailor in Vietnam and you will find that they were in combat almost daily for their tour. Day after day. Anyone who was hit three times in combat however minor was seeing a lot of action.
I would recommend the following books for those of you who think Vietnam was some kind of cakewalk. Nam - Mark Baker, If I die in a combat zone - Tim O'Brien, Low level hell -Hugh Mills, Welcome to Vietnam macho man - Ernest Spencer.
Get off your high horse Nuke. After reading those books if you still think you wouldn't do ANYTHING to get out of combat in Vietnam then you're crazy! That 'cupcake' was hit three times in combat. It was his ticket out of there and he took it. Any sane man would.
It may not have been the norm but it happened. Many veterans said as much and it's well documented. You can of course live in denial if you like.
Bush may or may not win the election but it won't be a landslide. It's clear you fear Kerry and attacking his war record is over compensation for Bush's lack of one. That is irony.
Nice deflection of the issue, which John Kerry, not me.
You assume a lot
1. nobody ever said Vietnam was a cakewalk
2. You assume everyone in Vietnam would do "anything" to get out
3.Kerry was in Action for 4 months, then testfied that it was the norm rather than the exception for U.S. troops to tortue and slaughter civilians. He is a liar.
4. Kerry was "hit 3 times in combat" so severely that he missed a total of 2 days in action. He refuses to say how he was wounded. I would have to use my brain and assume his wounds in no way prevented him from performing his duties.
4. John Kerry is the one bringing the issue to the public. John Kerry is the one making it a political tool...... only thing is, he seems to have made a big mistake, since he is not a hero of any sort.
And Im sure you have heard that John Kerry was part of a group and attended a meeting in which a vote was taken on weather or not to assinate US congressmen. Kerry was present when a conspiracy to commit murder was being plotted, yet he warned nobody.
Kerry said he never attanded that meeting....... that is he said that until it was pointed out to him that the FBI was there too and listed John Kerry as being present.
This guy is a disgrace to my country. He is a lying, two faced socialist and not much he says can be trusted as the truth.
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Originally posted by hawker238
Couldn't have said it better, cpxxx.
Pork: Lets put that aside. Bush went AWOL, Kerry went to Nam. Kerry is the obvious coward and traitor here.
I don't doubt that you couldn't have said it better, Hawker.
I never called him a traitor. I just said that compared to the guys he was fighting alongside, he's no hero. I don't like him primarily for other reasons, but his use of his four months in combat as a way to get into the hearts of voters is not honorable, in my opinion, and makes me like him less.
cpxxx, I've actually read the O'Brien book, along with a bunch of others by him. A great writer, I think. I also saw 'We Were Soldiers', perhaps the most harrowing war movie I've ever seen. Yeah, vietnam was no cake walk, but what major conflict in the 20th century was? And how does being 'hit' 3 times result in two days off active duty? Was he hit by a sound wave? A bad sinus headache?
My original point, again, for those of you who will respond with sarcasm and Bush Bashing, is that Kerry's 'war hero status' is not what the popular opinion of it seems to be, and is no reason to vote for him. Conversely, if you vote against Bush because of his lack of a service record, I will have no arguement with you, because at least that's valid reasoning.
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Kerry was "hit 3 times in combat" so severely that he missed a total of 2 days in action.
Seems like he's getting blamed because the bullets and shrapnel didn't land a couple of inches higher and a few inches to the left.
I thought being in combat and getting shot at is enough of a thing in itself. Is there a list out there somewhere that denotes wounds worthy of respect? Maybe he should have painted a bullseye on his forehead. Yeah, he just wasn't trying hard enough to die... that's it.
edit. Hit 3 times. Missed two days. And this is somehow bad? Ya make it sound like he used those injuries to spend some serious time at Club Med. Missed two days.
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Originally posted by Nash
Seems like he's getting blamed because the bullets and shrapnel didn't land a couple of inches higher and a few inches to the left.
I thought being in combat and getting shot at is enough of a thing in itself. Is there a list out there somewhere that denotes wounds worthy of respect? Maybe he should have painted a bullseye on his forehead. Yeah, he just wasn't trying hard enough to die... that's it.
Well, I guess techically if he was hit by a wet noodle in combat and got a bruise, he could have put in for a purple heart too.
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I didn't know the North Vietnamese were using wet noodles.
You're right.
Kerry - hit 3 times. Missed two days. What a pansy!
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I would've taken at least 6 bullets for a one hour break.
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Originally posted by Nash
I didn't know the North Vietnamese were using wet noodles.
You're right.
Kerry - hit 3 times. Missed two days. What a pansy!
lol!
to clarify: Kerry was "wounded" 3 seperate times over a period of 4 months. He missed a total of 2 days from his last injury, previous 2 were so minor as to not require he miss any time in action. He was never shot that I'm aware of.
I just question what constitues a purple heart. Did he bump his head and get a bruise? Did he stub his toe?
Maybe every single person in the armed forces that see's combat and sustains even the most minor injury should receive a purple heart too. I'm all for it.
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And we all know that the Kerry sat on the panel that came up with the policy of awarding Purple Hearts.
I'm curious to know what exactly you have a problem with here?
Hit 3 times - missed 2 days - was awarded Purple Hearts by a policy many disagree with.
Am I getting warm?
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Originally posted by Nash
And we all know that the Kerry sat on the panel that came up with the policy of awarding Purple Hearts.
I'm curious to know what exactly you have a problem with here?
Hit 3 times - missed 2 days - was awarded Purple Hearts by a policy many disagree with.
Am I getting warm?
Nash,
He's one of those Democrats type that can do no right. Had he been a Republican, on the other hand......
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Oh that's right...
Bush - Hit, erhm... the bars? - missed all of it.
But at LEAST the guy didn't recieve any of those BS Purple Hearts!!!
:p
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Originally posted by Nash
And we all know that the Kerry sat on the panel that came up with the policy of awarding Purple Hearts.
I'm curious to know what exactly you have a problem with here?
Hit 3 times - missed 2 days - was awarded Purple Hearts by a policy many disagree with.
Am I getting warm?
My problem is that he is trying to portray himself as a war hero and friend of the military when he knows he is niether.
My problem with his purple hearts ties into my problem with Kerry's portrayal as a war hero.
I don't consider someone a war hero for bucking out of duty on the back of 3 purple hearts based on injuries that in no way effected his ability to remain in action and help his brothers in arms.
That, coupled with the fact that he raced home and began to tells lies to congress about war attrocties he never witnessed and which turned out to be lies written by a speach writer.
Oh, then there is the minor assination plot his group was involved in.
So I have a problem with Kerry, his moral judgment ( or lack of) and his sickening attempt to undermine our military from the time he left Vietnam till today..... all on the back of his "war hero" image, which he brought up.
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Originally posted by hawker238
Couldn't have said it better, cpxxx.
Pork: Lets put that aside. Bush went AWOL, Kerry went to Nam. Kerry is the obvious coward and traitor here.
I could care less about who did what in 'nam. The neocons need to spend all this effort "defining Kerry" because they can't stand on their record so far.
Bush won't even testify before congress w/o Cheney sitting next to him holding his hand. give it a break! All that rough and ready national guard training sure served him well
Talk about cowardice :lol
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Bush won't even testify before congress w/o Cheney sitting next to him holding his hand. give it a break! All that rough and ready national guard training sure served him well
Talk about cowardice :lol
Bush or Cheney nor any member of the cabinet have no obligation to testifiy at all before congress, same way a member or members of congress do not have to be called and required to testify before Bush.
It's called seperation of power.
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Originally posted by NUKE
even if that is not a real letter, the points are pretty much valid and based on the known record of John Kerry.
Even if the letter is a lie, it's the truth?? That sounds like some pretty twisted thinking. What if a similar letter were written about Bush. I don't think you would have the same opinion.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Even if the letter is a lie, it's the truth?? That sounds like some pretty twisted thinking. What if a similar letter were written about Bush. I don't think you would have the same opinion.
No, I said even is that isn't a real letter, the information provided in it's content is correct.
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The author didn't mention Kerry's Bronze Star at all.
"Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a Sealords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return to and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp
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Yeah, but Thrawn. It took him SIXTEEN HOURS to recover from that wound!
Bah!
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Ya, I wasn't going to mention this, but seeing as the thread got punted and I saw it there. I guess by this guys criteria Bush Jr and Regan shouldn't have been Presidents either.
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Originally posted by Nash
Yeah, but Thrawn. It took him SIXTEEN HOURS to recover from that wound!
Bah!
A whole sixteen hours? WOW! Just that statement alone should be enough to convince anyone that Kerry is a war hero who supports the military.
That must have a been a tough revovery for him, I mean 16 whole hours and everything.
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I know a guy who spent THREE ENTIRE DAYS recovering from an apendectomy. He's as dumb as ****, but there's no denying his heroism in this regard. He oughta be Prez.
No wait... I knew another guy that got in a motorcycle wreck, and he was in the hospital for TWO WHOLE MONTHS! Now THAT guy, yeah.... HE should be president.
Kerry - hit 3 times - missed two days. Pansy!
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Originally posted by Nash
I know a guy who spent THREE ENTIRE DAYS recovering from an apendectomy. He's as dumb as ****, but there's no denying his heroism in this regard. He oughta be Prez.
No wait... I knew another guy that got in a motorcycle wreck, and he was in the hospital for TWO WHOLE MONTHS! Now THAT guy, yeah.... HE should be president.
Kerry - hit 3 times - missed two days. Pansy!
I had cancer when I was in my early twenties, broke my leg, underwent a VERY painful bone marrow test, had food poisoning, got a piece of metal in my pupil from a drill..... I never missed a day of work from any of those.
I did miss several days from other things...like the flu and just plain old not wanting to go to work.
I should be president I guess.
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By your interpretation of things... I'm amazed you aren't already there! :aok (<---- for SOB)
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wtg Nash!
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I happen to think that you are the bee's knees Eagler. Steadfast. Rare.
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ty sir
keep fighting the good fight
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War hero...that term seems to be thrown around a lot.
My grandfather flew with VMF-323 in WWII and Korea. He retired in 1964 as a Lt. Col. He was awarded a DFC, an Air Medal, a Bronze Star and other medals I can't remember. He was awarded the DFC for a risky misison in which he went above and beyond the call of duty to destroy a bridge. (It's a lot more complicated than that...if I find the story, I'll tell it)
He's told me of his stories. Does he consider himself a hero? No, he considers it doing his job. He doesn't like the term "hero", because it's too open ended.
Regardless of what Kerry did in combat, the medals he recieved or how long his tour was, the fact is he was doing his job, and calling himself a "war hero" for his actions isn't right. Hell if that was the case, is my grandfather a hero?
Kerry can say what he wants...to me, it's all just an attempt to get into the White House. If he's elected, we'll never hear of his tour ever again.
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"calling himself a "war hero" for his actions isn't right."
Got link?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Well, I guess techically if he was hit by a wet noodle in combat and got a bruise, he could have put in for a purple heart too.
That would mean that your military establishment is ruled by fools,
I've met a number of the American military both professionally and socially - fools they are not.
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This guy IS an insult to all military members...besides I've said it once and I'll say it again...the dude is too damn ugly to be our president..do you want that face representing the people? He looks like Herman Munster. Besides it really chaps my bellybutton that he did whatever he could to get out of Vietnam...comes home and protests against that war, Then claims that his military experience will make him a great commander in chief..sounds like he didn't serve long enough to really learn anything. Democrats are bad for the military anyway. The last one we had as C-in-C is a good example.
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heh ok Kerry lovers. Tell me, what does Kerry stand for? So far I've seen him on both sides of most of the issues :D I guess "I hate Bush" is a pretty good platform....
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Translation: Build a glass house for me to throw stones at.
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(http://www.totels.com/kerry/obl4kerry.jpg)
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(http://images.indymedia.org/imc/washingtondc/media/image/13/bush_hitler_2.jpg)
I normally wouldn't post that, but it seemed appropriate.
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The idiots on this board never fail to disappoint.
Nash nailed this one several times over.
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Originally posted by Dowding
The idiots on this board never fail to disappoint.
Nash nailed this one several times over.
How so Dowding?
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Originally posted by Dowding
The idiots on this board never fail to disappoint.
Nash nailed this one several times over.
I said I was sorry.
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Originally posted by Nash
edit. Hit 3 times. Missed two days. And this is somehow bad? Ya make it sound like he used those injuries to spend some serious time at Club Med. Missed two days.
Actually, he missed 8 months of his tour due to being injured so badly, er, umm, because he had 3 purple hearts I mean.
That's the point, not that he didn't deserve 3 purple hearts. I guess purple hearts are given to any US citizen injured while serving the country in time of war, and Kerry certainly fits that description.
You do understand that his resulting "injuries" did not prevent him from performing his duty, right Nash? So technically he missed 8 months of combat duty for what amounts to a few scratches.
War Hero written all over the guy, I agree .
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
People who ignorantly accept his label as an honorable soldier and will vote for him based solely on that belief need to be educated.
Pork...you seem to be the one in need of education about Kerry's war record.
First, Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam in one of the most dangerous jobs...Adm Elmo Zumwalt, who commanded the swift boats, calculated that 75% of the men under his command were wounded or killed in action. Kerry had originally completed his service from the safety of a destroyer, but volunteered for a second tour as a swift boat skipper.
(this is summarized from Snopes)
On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's boat received word that a swift boat was being ambushed. As Kerry raced to the scene, his boat became another target, as a Viet Cong B-40 rocket blast shattered a window. Kerry could have followed protocol and ordered his crew to hit the enemy and run. But the skipper had a more aggressive reaction in mind. Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft's bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.
An enemy was just feet away, holding a weapon with enough firepower to blow up the boat. Kerry's forward gunner, Tommy Belodeau, shot and clipped the Viet Cong in the leg. Then Belodeau's gun jammed, according to other crewmates (Belodeau died in 1997). Michael Medeiros tried to fire at the Viet Cong, but he couldn't get a shot off. Fred Short in the twin .50 was unable to tilt his guns down far enough to aim at the enemy on low river bank.
While wounded in the leg, the VC was able to pick up his grenade launcher and run. Presumably to re-position for firing as he was too close to the boat to escape injury or death had he fired when the boat beached on top of his position.
As the forward .50 was jammed and the twin .50s were unable to get a bead, Kerry charged after the VC to prevent him from getting into a position behind the cover of a hooch where he could safely fire his weapon, which would have destroyed his boat and likely killed his men.
Fred Short was the twin .50 gunner...he recounts: "I laid in fire with the twin .50s, and he got behind a hooch. I laid 50 rounds in there, and Mr. Kerry went in. Rounds were coming everywhere. We were getting fire from both sides of the river. It was a canal. We were receiving fire from the opposite bank, also, and there was no way I could bring my guns to bear on that. That was a him-or-us thing, that was a loaded weapon with a shape charge on it . . . It could pierce a tank. I wouldn't have been here talking to you. I probably prayed more up that creek than a Southern Baptist church does in a month."
As far as his wounds and Purple Hearts are concerned...The first was from shrapnel that hit his arm while he was engaged in a firefight with VC. He was in a Boston Whaler illuminating VC who were smuggling supplies across the river at night. While the flares would show the enemy for directed fire, it also gave away Karry's exposed position and his Whaler came under intense fire. The second Purple Heart was earned when a RPG round exploded next to his boat while exiting an area so hot that it had forced away chopper gunships assigned to escort the Swift boats to safety. He was hit in the leg by shrapnel.
His third Purple Heart was earned in the same action that won him a Bronze Star (from the citation):
Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a Sealords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return to and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
Pork, you are correct that he didn't miss much time. But it seems to me that the letter derides Kerry for the exact same attributes that the writers finds admirable...he was wounded but returned to battle despite the wound!
Originally posted by NUKE
He is a lying, two faced socialist and not much he says can be trusted as the truth.
Uh...and Bush can be trusted as truthful...yeah...right. BTW...where are those WMD again?
Originally posted by Capt. Pork
I just said that compared to the guys he was fighting alongside, he's no hero.
Originally posted by NUKE
only thing is, he seems to have made a big mistake, since he is not a hero of any sort.
Please...did you read the actions that won him a Bronze Star? Seems to me that anyone that puts themselves directly in harms way to save the life of another is a hero...his wounds, regardless of how major or minor, are indications of how great the risk he took to protect the men of the other swift boats and his man overboard.
The two of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I can think of no more un-American act, other than burning the US flag, that compares with belittling a war veteran who served with the level of distinction that Kerry has done for the protection of our country.
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Has he ever directly said "I am a war hero,"?
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Your whole position is that Kerry didn't bleed enough to warrant any decoration or deserve the accolade of 'War Hero' - an accolade he has never claimed.
Did you serve in Vietnam, Nuke? Were you wounded at any point? I suspect not on both counts.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Your whole position is that Kerry didn't bleed enough to warrant any decoration or deserve the accolade of 'War Hero' - an accolade he has never claimed.
Did you serve in Vietnam, Nuke? Were you wounded at any point? I suspect not on both counts.
that has never been my position Dowding, as I explained to Nash when he had asked me what my issue was.
And it's Kerry's supporters constantly calling him a war hero and bring the issue up.
And me not having been to Vietnam has nothing to do with the issue.
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Originally posted by NUKE
And it's Kerry's supporters constantly calling him a war hero and bring the issue up.
(http://w3f.com/patriots/jessica-lynch.jpg)
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Nuke according to what Cro as posted I don't see any reason to not calling Kerry a hero.
But to please you I won't do that.
My problem now ,how was it possible to give there hero label to pvt Lynch in regard to the non-here Kerry is ?.
My question to you will be what is a hero in America ?
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Originally posted by crowMAW
Pork...you seem to be the one in need of education about Kerry's war record.
First, Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam in one of the most dangerous jobs...Adm Elmo Zumwalt, who commanded the swift boats, calculated that 75% of the men under his command were wounded or killed in action. Kerry had originally completed his service from the safety of a destroyer, but volunteered for a second tour as a swift boat skipper.
(this is summarized from Snopes)
On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's boat received word that a swift boat was being ambushed. As Kerry raced to the scene, his boat became another target, as a Viet Cong B-40 rocket blast shattered a window. Kerry could have followed protocol and ordered his crew to hit the enemy and run. But the skipper had a more aggressive reaction in mind. Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft's bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.
An enemy was just feet away, holding a weapon with enough firepower to blow up the boat. Kerry's forward gunner, Tommy Belodeau, shot and clipped the Viet Cong in the leg. Then Belodeau's gun jammed, according to other crewmates (Belodeau died in 1997). Michael Medeiros tried to fire at the Viet Cong, but he couldn't get a shot off. Fred Short in the twin .50 was unable to tilt his guns down far enough to aim at the enemy on low river bank.
While wounded in the leg, the VC was able to pick up his grenade launcher and run. Presumably to re-position for firing as he was too close to the boat to escape injury or death had he fired when the boat beached on top of his position.
As the forward .50 was jammed and the twin .50s were unable to get a bead, Kerry charged after the VC to prevent him from getting into a position behind the cover of a hooch where he could safely fire his weapon, which would have destroyed his boat and likely killed his men.
Fred Short was the twin .50 gunner...he recounts: "I laid in fire with the twin .50s, and he got behind a hooch. I laid 50 rounds in there, and Mr. Kerry went in. Rounds were coming everywhere. We were getting fire from both sides of the river. It was a canal. We were receiving fire from the opposite bank, also, and there was no way I could bring my guns to bear on that. That was a him-or-us thing, that was a loaded weapon with a shape charge on it . . . It could pierce a tank. I wouldn't have been here talking to you. I probably prayed more up that creek than a Southern Baptist church does in a month."
As far as his wounds and Purple Hearts are concerned...The first was from shrapnel that hit his arm while he was engaged in a firefight with VC. He was in a Boston Whaler illuminating VC who were smuggling supplies across the river at night. While the flares would show the enemy for directed fire, it also gave away Karry's exposed position and his Whaler came under intense fire. The second Purple Heart was earned when a RPG round exploded next to his boat while exiting an area so hot that it had forced away chopper gunships assigned to escort the Swift boats to safety. He was hit in the leg by shrapnel.
His third Purple Heart was earned in the same action that won him a Bronze Star (from the citation):
Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a Sealords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return to and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
Pork, you are correct that he didn't miss much time. But it seems to me that the letter derides Kerry for the exact same attributes that the writers finds admirable...he was wounded but returned to battle despite the wound!
Uh...and Bush can be trusted as truthful...yeah...right. BTW...where are those WMD again?
Please...did you read the actions that won him a Bronze Star? Seems to me that anyone that puts themselves directly in harms way to save the life of another is a hero...his wounds, regardless of how major or minor, are indications of how great the risk he took to protect the men of the other swift boats and his man overboard.
The two of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I can think of no more un-American act, other than burning the US flag, that compares with belittling a war veteran who served with the level of distinction that Kerry has done for the protection of our country.
Kerry was very, very lucky - he was probably quite young and rather inexperienced at the time of his contact in Vietnam - he made the right decisions while people were trying to kill him and his men.
War hero is something that's thrown around a little too easily - I doubt if anyone who has experience of active service or more specifically a CIB or equivalent thinks in terms of "war heroes"
He served his country and the men under his command well, little pieces of ribbon mean very little - I think the only reason he's attacked on this board by Republican voters is because Vietnam was a defining moment to America - the decisions people made 40 years ago and how they served are still relevant today - both Bush and Kerry made decisions on what they were going to do when their country needed them.
Kerry is only attacked for his Vietnam record because in comparison Bush is a joke. Both served....but who has more integrity?
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Originally posted by NUKE
...And me not having been to Vietnam has nothing to do with the issue.
Does Bush not having been to Vietnam have anything to do with this issue?
Interesting. Slam one american's war record, while extolling the virtues of another guy who simply didn't show up.
Why?
Partisanship. My team vs. yours. Truly a gay way to select our leaders.
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Originally posted by Furious
Does Bush not having been to Vietnam have anything to do with this issue?
Interesting. Slam one american's war record, while extolling the virtues of another guy who simply didn't show up.
Why?
Partisanship. My team vs. yours. Truly a gay way to select our leaders.
Interesting indeed, since I haven't "slammed" Kerry's war record and I never said Kerry didn't deserve his metals.
His purple hearts are what he used to get rotated out of combat even though he was not injured or unable to perform his duties.
Someone said Kerry volunteered for one of the most dangerous jobs ? Well the fact is Kerry's ( the Swift boats) mission changed AFTER he got over there. Kerry went from having one of the safest jobs to one of the most dangerous.....but not by his volunteering for it.
Then once in that job, he used the fact that he had 3 purple hearts to get the hell out of that job.
He came home to the States and lied to the Nation about war attrocities he never witnessed. I have heard interviews from POWs in Vietnam say that Kerrys anti war activities and lies help fuel their captors propoganda and they used it to demoralize the prisoners. Its fine that Kerry didn't support the war, but he made terrible judgments when his fellow soldiers where still over there fighting it.
Kerry went on to become a leader in a group that contemplated killing US congressmen who were not in favor of pulling out of Vietnam. Kerry attended the meeting in which the vote took place to assinate members of congress. The FBI has files on Kerry that show him to be present, which he denied. Kerry could be brought up on charges for conspiracy to commit murder. Even though Kerry voted "nay" he did not alert authorities.....he instead left the group and kept his mouth shut.
I have a problem with Kerry's moral judgment, as he lacks any.
I never have said anything in support of Bush that I can ever recall, but since you asked, I feel he is a good leader .
So I will even apologize and say that Kerry did his duty in Vienam and performed admirally under fire. and my hats off to Kerry for that. He served his country, to him for that too.
John McCain is a war hero. Kerry is a guy who did his job, then used his medals to transfer out of combat eight months early. If we allowed everybody to transfer out who had similar injuries, we wouldn't have very many left would we?
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nuke was a cowards during vietnam and fled to canada.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
This guy IS an insult to all military members...besides I've said it once and I'll say it again...the dude is too damn ugly to be our president..do you want that face representing the people? He looks like Herman Munster.
Abraham Lincoln?