Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Replicant on April 06, 2004, 04:38:00 PM
-
Just got back from Munich today. Last night I saw that they were advertising 'Enemy of the Gates' on German TV. They advertised it as the Russian hero versus the Nazi's. This surprised me, are such programmes often described 'versus the Nazi's' rather than 'versus Germany'? It just appeared that they labelled all German's as Nazi's which obviously isn't entirely true, or is this a normal way of separating the events in WW2 from today?
-
Originally posted by Replicant
Just got back from Munich today. Last night I saw that they were advertising 'Enemy of the Gates' on German TV. They advertised it as the Russian hero versus the Nazi's. This surprised me, are such programmes often described 'versus the Nazi's' rather than 'versus Germany'? It just appeared that they labelled all German's as Nazi's which obviously isn't entirely true, or is this a normal way of separating the events in WW2 from today?
Hi Nexx...hope you're doing well my friend:)
-
I actually posed this question to an exchange student i ended up dating while she was here. She is from Dresden. Anyways, from what she said that not all German soldiers were Nazis, the same way that not all american soldiers are republicans. I got to talk on the telephone to her grandfather who was a Luftwaffe flyer and actually spent time in the U.S. in a prison camp. Turns out he supported greatly for her to see 'our beautiful country'. I don't remember exactly where, but he was somewhere in the south, Alabama maybe? He was returned to Germany after the war to his firebombed city and his family was essentially wiped out. He married a german girl not long after and their daughter born in 1954 was Franziska's (exchange student) mother. Anyways...going on and on.
Her thoughts were that she wasn't a Nazi, her parents wern't Nazis and her grandfather did what he was told by his country's leaders (who happened to be the Nazis) in order to defend his home country, which is honorable. He didn't consider himself a Nazi and did not have a terrible problem with jews. He adknowledged that most germans, whermacht included, felt they were better people but they also compared a bit of our history to that...pre-civil rights movement bit to be precise. He said we didn't round up other races and systemacially execute them, and as far as he knew thats as far as it went. It's hard to understand that not all Germans wanted all the jews killed, and hopefully Revisionist Historians will help that thought process along.
From what they said they look back upon their history and they are not proud of Nazism, fair enough. They are proud of the fight they made defending their homeland, fair enough. The Germans have nothing to apologize for in my personal opinion, and they never have. They fought with honor and I admire the Germans of that generation, but have absolute disgust for Nazis.
If this helps in any way...its all I really know on the subject.
-
Have to agree with Toad. The nazis and the japs all died in the war..they were horrible people. We will talk about them as if they are someone else..or better yet..make the term a prejiduced one..so people cant use it anymore...
-
In propoganda, the German enemy in WW2 was normally personified as 'Hitler' or the 'The Nazis'.
The Japanese ("Japs") however, in total, were usually portrayed as monkeys or apes.
-
I talk to many germans too.
They treat it as like it had never happened. They even punish those that refer to "Illegal groups."
-
Originally posted by Golfer
not all German soldiers were Nazis, the same way that not all american soldiers are republicans.
I think you meant the same way that not all americans are liberals. And btw, not all Nazis were soldiers.
-
pongo is correct.. all the japs and nazis died in the war.
We know this because not a single person asked after the war was a nazi.
lazs
-
Originally posted by -MZ-
In propoganda, the German enemy in WW2 was normally personified as 'Hitler' or the 'The Nazis'.
The Japanese ("Japs") however, in total, were usually portrayed as monkeys or apes.
Did the Japanese read those propoganda posters? How did it impact them? Are we to remove what every term the japanese used on thier posters to describe US from the Japanese language?
They would laugh thier heads off if we tried to tell them what words they could or could not use in Japanese.
Dont kid your self. Lots of animal totems where used in propoganda against the Germans and by the Germans and by the japanese I bet too.
-
Interesting, it brings to mind a Book I was reading about a German tanker, the foreward went on and on about how germany has been robed of its heroes of WW2 but revisionist history and anti war sentiment.
I will read it again and post back, I may post the whole foreward, it was interesting and it would be fun to see the Germans on this boards take on it.
-
Funny
Just the other day I browsed through a magazine format book on the La7 by a russian author. The whole preface(10 pages?) was a diatrab about how the war in the east as understood in the west was a total lie. The germans never did so well as they said etc etc etc..
on and on and on.
Never mentioned the la7 once...lol
I wanted to buy it just to post that crap here..
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Dont kid your self.
(http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/posters2/usa13.jpg)
Good luck finding a U.S. poster that expresses a similar sentiment towards "Germans".
-
Originally posted by -MZ-
The Japanese ("Japs") however, in total, were usually portrayed as monkeys or apes.
Likewise were Americans in Japanese propaganda, they told their own we ate children, I kid you not.
-
Originally posted by -MZ-
Good luck finding a U.S. poster that expresses a similar sentiment towards "Germans".
The Germans also didn't begin their war against America by marching a few thousand POWs across Bataan, killing those that fell behind. That tends to breed a bit of resentment.
-
(http://www.worldwar1.com/reppost/post004.jpg)
-
The paper says "Huns kill women and children!"
From WWI.
-
Yeah, the bloodthirsty hun was a widely used WW1 image. I should have been more specific, WW2.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Likewise were Americans in Japanese propaganda, they told their own we ate children, I kid you not.
The ABCD powers (America, British, China, Dutch) were usually depicted as demons of some sort.
-
Anti-German or Anti-Nazi propaganda rarely featured actual Germans in it. Instead, it featured Hitler or his staff being crushed/humiliated by Allied leaders.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
I think you meant the same way that not all americans are liberals. And btw, not all Nazis were soldiers.
So you're going to say exactly the same thing I said using different words? Well, at least i'll agree and thanks for the news flash on not all nazis being soldiers.
-
Your mistaken. Pictures of germans as evil beasts were common throughout ww2.
The japanese are not being oppresed by anyone. They are trying to revise thier history which they are welcome to do. When they start to do it to our history I think I have to call it.
I think Japanese hate the term Jap so much because they hate to be reminded how increadly **** kicked they were.
The very poster you linked to shows a headline from an american paper calling the americans Yanks...But you dont see the equivilence apperently.
-
(http://www.museumofworldwarii.com/images/TourPictures/13a_RussianHitler_lge.jpg)
(http://www.teacheroz.com/images/homes.gif)
(http://www.spankingblog.com/spanking-hitler.gif)
(http://www.ilovebacon.com/011403/hitler.jpg)
etc.
-
I don't have a problem with anyone referring to us as Yanks. If it was so bad we wouldn't put up with a ball team called the Yankees. I actually get a kick out of it when the Brits say something about 'you yanks.'
-
That's because we're the United States of America and undeniably awesome.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Your mistaken. Pictures of germans as evil beasts were common throughout ww2.
The japanese are not being oppresed by anyone. They are trying to revise thier history which they are welcome to do. When they start to do it to our history I think I have to call it.
I think Japanese hate the term Jap so much because they hate to be reminded how increadly **** kicked they were.
The very poster you linked to shows a headline from an american paper calling the americans Yanks...But you dont see the equivilence apperently.
Jews=Jewish (Commonly used, but many think its not racist)
Wetback=Mexican (Not racist according to many)
Jap=Japanese (Lately, its become the latest "racist slur" )
Redneck=White, country-living person (Used liberally to depict a population group, just like Jap, Yank, Jew and Wetback, but not considered racist, go figure. :rolleyes: )
Pick your poison, I'll show you a political motive.
-
Originally posted by hawker238
That's because we're the United States of America and undeniably awesome.
And thats exactly why the rest of the world hates us. We're viewed as people who don't take the time to understand other cultures and get along and go along with others, specifically muslims. Wish I could have the world leaders over to my house one afternoon for a BBQ over 4th of July and see how bad we are and talk as a buncha guys and girls eating hot dogs and hamburgers instead of political azzwipes.
-
Have pork ribs!
-
I was being facetious. I do that a lot.
-
Originally posted by Golfer
So you're going to say exactly the same thing I said using different words? Well, at least i'll agree and thanks for the news flash on not all nazis being soldiers.
Just thought I'd point out your paralleling Germans/Nazis with Americans/Republicans. I'm sure it was unintentional, right?
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Just thought I'd point out your paralleling Germans/Nazis with Americans/Republicans. I'm sure it was unintentional, right?
Absolutely intentional. Not all Germans were Nazis, like not all Rmericans are Republicans. Same goes for our soldiers. Not all soldiers are Republicans. Not all Germans soldiers were Nazis.
Simple and it is a parallel for comparisons.
-
Originally posted by Golfer
Absolutely intentional. Not all Germans were Nazis, like not all Rmericans are Republicans. Same goes for our soldiers. Not all soldiers are Republicans. Not all Germans soldiers were Nazis.
Simple and it is a parallel for comparisons.
Kinda like not all Russians were/are communists and not all American liberals are communists?
-
so you're saying what i was saying? again?
-
I'm paraphrasing, just so I understand what it is you're saying. You know what that means, right?
-
No idea...next time just summarize using another example to make life easier...dummy :)
-
Originally posted by Golfer
No idea...next time just summarize using another example to make life easier...dummy :)
commie :)
-
The western powers would never use racist ape like imagery to describe their white european german foes, never!!!! They would only use it against the poor japanese who were really victims of eurocentric white supremacist racism...
Here is some from WW1 only 20 years before WW2...
(http://departments.colgate.edu/peacestudies/core310/images/JTAnti6.jpg)
(http://departments.colgate.edu/peacestudies/core310/images/JTAnti8.jpg)
(http://departments.colgate.edu/peacestudies/core310/images/JTAnti7.jpg)
And from WW2:
(http://www.adh.brighton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/16/BBH/57.JPG)
Consider yourself educated...
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Have pork ribs!
You got any corn and watermelon.
I gots some chicken.
-
from what my father tells me the jap propaganda didn't really stick with the civilians he encountered.
when he was a POW they where often used as slave-labor, sometimes working beside japanese workers, while he was held in japan. (he also spent some time in camps in China, most of this I have to piece together from several conversations since he can't really sit down and talk about it for long)
anyway, back to the propaganda. many of the civilians he encountered treated him very well, often risking severe punishment by smugling a portion of their meal to him or other workers, or giving him small bits of news on the war.
the guards where a completely different type though. often people who weren't fit for combat, so they tried to prove their toughness by abusing the prisoners.
he used to tell me when I was a kid that if it wheren't for the risks some of those people took he likely wouldn't have made it.
as it was he was in bad shape when he got out. (185 lb at the start of the war, 89 lb when released)
-
walt disney did propaganda films too.
http://www.steakandcheese.com/downloads/hitlers_children.wmv
-
Aside from the funky cartoonish drawings of Hitler/Goering/Goebels, some weird dialogue, and the fat german chic, thats not too far from the truth. No extremely blatant lies detected here.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And from WW2:
(http://www.adh.brighton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/16/BBH/57.JPG)
Consider yourself educated...
That's Hitler, not the Germans.
Nice find, keep looking.
-
So your saying then that the Allies didnt use any beastial references towards the germans in ww2?
-
Originally posted by Montezuma
That's Hitler, not the Germans.
Nice find, keep looking.
Well he is austrian! :rolleyes:
-
What difference does it make if we villified the japanese more?
The Japanese cominted some pretty horible atrocities, and I am sure can compete with the germans with numbers of civilians killed. Just ask the chinese.
Jeez, the way they treated prisoners was horid. From what I read I would rather die then have been made to be in a Japanese POW camp.
In that regard were the western Alies are concerned the Germans are not in the same legue, you they exacuted some allied prisoners, but over treated US and British(and other allies that were not Russians) pretty well.
Sooooo shrecking what if we villified the japanese more? Does that make us bad people? If it does in your mind you need help.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
So your saying then that the Allies didnt use any beastial references towards the germans in ww2?
I can find a picture of a snake with a Nazi Swastika on it, or a Donkey with Hitler's face, but I can't find one that says "The Germans" on it. I can, however, find a picture of a cockroach that says "The Japs" on it, and it has the exaggerated facial features of an anynonmous 'Jap'.
Why do some people in this thread think that by having this discussion I am somehow excusing Imperial Japan's stupid and barbaric behavior during the war? I'm just trying to answer Replicant, and troll up some edu-tainment.
-
I am not..I am trying to get you to make a defininite statement on the issue so Its worth my time to track down a rubuttle.
-
A likely factor that made it easier to vilify the Nazis, rather than the Germans, was the fact that a large number of Americans were of German descent.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
A likely factor that made it easier to vilify the Nazis, rather than the Germans, was the fact that a large number of Americans were of German descent.
Possibly, but what about WW1? The demographics for german americans prolly not change too much in comparsion to all other groups between ww1 and ww2. The only reason I could imagine that would be a factor is the much much greater size of ww2 enlistments vs ww1.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Possibly, but what about WW1? The demographics for german americans prolly not change too much in comparsion to all other groups between ww1 and ww2. The only reason I could imagine that would be a factor is the much much greater size of ww2 enlistments vs ww1.
There were no Nazi's in WWI. :rolleyes: ;)
-
Originally posted by AKIron
A likely factor that made it easier to vilify the Nazis, rather than the Germans, was the fact that a large number of Americans were of German descent.
I think it was because it was easier to vilify a well known easily identifiable enemy like Hitler/Goebbels than perhaps try to demonise lesser known Japanese leaders (except perhaps Tojo)
Tronsky
-
Thanks for the replies, but it still hasn't really answered my original question.
What I'm more interested in is how German's are described in WW2 from the German perspective today. I know that many German's weren't Nazi's and they were simply fighting for their country. It was the 'Enemy of the Gates' advert that made me think on broader terms saying that it was against the "Nazi's". Is this a way of classing all good/bad things about the German war machine during WW2 as Nazi's?
-
Lets put it this way.
I have no guilt about what happened during the 30's and 40's.
I wasn't there. I did not participate in what happened and I will not hold it against myself or others not there for what my ancestors committed against others. Just as many here will not hold themselves responsible for what happened to the N. American Indians in the 17 and 1800's.
I do however try to be sensitive to others who have lost friends or family during this time.
I also do not excuse what those responsible had commited and believe that anyone who had commited war crimes or genocide should be tried irregardless of age or time passed.
-
There are very few german war films in difference to the english or american films from the 60s. So, there is not much to refer.
The impression that I have about this is, that there is always made a difference between the Nazis (active party members, politicians), the para-military groups (for example SA) , the SS/Totenkopf-SS and the Wehrmacht.
It's the difference between the mass murders, the people giving the orders, the people following the orders and the people closing their eyes.
We have an exhibition about the warcrimes of the Wehrmacht and it's discussed very active and controverse. Which country makes an exhibitions about their warcrimes and send it through the whole country?!
I never saw a glorification of mass murders and Nazis in the media. People would get punished and send to prison. We definetly not deny what happened, but after 60 years it's hard for mostly the young people to feel guilty for something that even their parents didn't experience themselves.
If you have foreigners visiting and they talk to germans and how they feel about WW2, Nazis, Jewish, ... they are mostly impressed by the way how germans are still arguing about it and feel guilty about what happened 60 years ago.
Any one (politician, writer, ...) that asks in public for a "normalization" and a "looking forward" attitude are brandmarked and big public discussions start to nip it in the bud and anyone who supports them.
It's the germans themself that let them not forget what happened in the third Reich 1933-1945.
-
Originally posted by lucull
There are very few german war films in difference to the english or american films from the 60s. So, there is not much to refer.
The impression that I have about this is, that there is always made a difference between the Nazis (active party members, politicians), the para-military groups (for example SA) , the SS/Totenkopf-SS and the Wehrmacht.
It's the difference between the mass murders, the people giving the orders, the people following the orders and the people closing their eyes.
We have an exhibition about the warcrimes of the Wehrmacht and it's discussed very active and controverse. Which country makes an exhibitions about their warcrimes and send it through the whole country?!
I never saw a glorification of mass murders and Nazis in the media. People would get punished and send to prison. We definetly not deny what happened, but after 60 years it's hard for mostly the young people to feel guilty for something that even their parents didn't experience themselves.
If you have foreigners visiting and they talk to germans and how they feel about WW2, Nazis, Jewish, ... they are mostly impressed by the way how germans are still arguing about it and feel guilty about what happened 60 years ago.
Any one (politician, writer, ...) that asks in public for a "normalization" and a "looking forward" attitude are brandmarked and big public discussions start to nip it in the bud and anyone who supports them.
It's the germans themself that let them not forget what happened in the third Reich 1933-1945.
Thank you Lucall, that's what I was mostly looking for. As I mentioned before, I was mostly surprised how the TV company advertised the film 'versus the Nazis', because not all German's were Nazi's.
My interpretation was that it was advertised 'versus the Nazis' so that people shouldn't be embarrassed to watch it; it was 'Nazis' and not German's, in a way to distance itself from the past, but also one to remind of what actually happened under Nazi rule.
I understand and respect that people shouldn't live in the past. Of course we can learn from our mistakes, each country makes them, but it is very important to move on and ensure such things never happen again.