Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: boxboy28 on April 06, 2004, 05:09:13 PM
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this is no way shape or form represents my feelings
I just wanted to post this to see your/ my fellow AH BBS readers reactions to this! Please feel free to state your opinion ...........
http://www.albasrah.net
A Letter from an Iraqi Mother to the Mothers of the Americans Killed in Fallujah
Dear Sisters,
I call upon you because we are sisters in motherhood.
The American media described us with as "barbarians", "savages", and "criminals" in the aftermath of the mob lynching scenes of the bodies of charred Americans in Fallujah, as Iraqis beat on dead bodies then hung them off a bridge. But the American media does not want you to know the true picture against which those scenes took place, nor does it want to let you know why Iraqis did this thing. The media does not want you to know the extent to which Iraqis have come to hate the soldiers of the occupation for them to act like this.
I address you as American women, as mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters.
Sisters, I know how painful it is for a woman to lose someone dear. I can feel your pain. For we, Iraqi women, have lost too much, and have suffered what no mother on the face of the earth has. For example, when your government imposed the unjust embargo on our country, we had to watch our children everyday dying from lack of medicine. Because of the weapons of mass destruction your soldiers used, especially depleted uranium, we had to carry babies in our wombs for nine months only to see them born severely deformed. As if all this was not enough for your government, it topped all it off with a war that it launched under false pretexts just to control our wealth, our oil and resources. And it was a brutal war in which many of our children were killed and many others were arrested, both sons and daughters. As of today, your government continues to kill and arrest our sons and daughters. So, after all this, do you still wonder why Iraqis carry such hatred in their hearts towards your kids?!
You sons, dear sisters, were not exactly angels or missionaries preaching the religion of mercy! Your sons have killed our fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters. Your sons have stolen, pillaged, raped, polluted the earth and the water, and burnt the fields. In fact, dear sisters, your sons are the real barbarians, the murderers, and criminals. Therefore, please don't blame us for hating them..
Dear sisters, I call upon you, as someone just like you who has experienced the pain of Iraqi brothers and sons being killed by the invaders in the worst possible way: if you want our collective pains not to increase and multiply, and if you want the return of your sons and husbands back home safe and sound, PLEASE LET THEM LEAVE IRAQ, for they are NOT welcome here. And, therefore, I tell you that nobody can possibly promise you that the lynching scenes of yesterday in Fallujah won't be repeated again, okay?
Why do you let your loved ones be sacrificed like this, dear sisters? So murdering beasts like Bush, Rumsfeld, Sharon, and Halliburton would get richer and more powerful? Is that a good reason for them to die? We think not. We want it all to stop, for us and for you. So please let your children leave Iraq alone.
Sincerely,
An Iraqi Mother
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Sounds like an Iraqi "Tokyo Rose"
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Exactly what i thought!
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LMFAO! Kudos to who ever wrote it.
That's why I can never be a good lawyer. I can't BS or lie at all.
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Sounds just like those letters sent by "American Soldiers" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Goebbels would be surprised how easy it still is to manipulate the minds of common people.
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Originally posted by mosgood
Sounds like an Iraqi "Tokyo Rose"
Same sort of BS, a bit more sympathetic.
Originally posted by lasersailor184
That's why I can never be a good lawyer. I can't BS or lie at all.
Lawyers don't need to be able to tell truth from fiction. In fact, for defense attornies, 'knowing' that their clients are innocent is helpful, whether it's true or not. The key is being able to convince the jury that their version of the truth is the only one.
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Couldn't believe that "Iraqi" mother sent to US mother...........
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Maybe if they are so wanting of peace, we could have Sadaam reinstated????
Frigging bs...
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This is kinda like that letter to kerry from a soldier. Completely fake.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
This is kinda like that letter to kerry from a soldier. Completely fake.
Obviously. Only letters damning Bush and supporting Kerry are genuine.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
This is kinda like that letter to kerry from a soldier. Completely fake.
Hey idiot, the man who wrote the letter has a website, and claims full responsibilty for it. Wrong yet again....
You Must have missed the morality lessons in school concerning lying...
:rolleyes:
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Obviously a fraud; however, we aren't exactly winning their hearts and minds now, are we?
:rolleyes:
Just out of curiosity, have any of you who were formerly in favor of the Iraqi invasion changed your minds?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Obviously. Only letters damning Bush and supporting Kerry are genuine.
:lol :rofl :lol :lol :rofl :lol
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If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck:rolleyes:
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"Just out of curiosity, have any of you who were formerly in favor of the Iraqi invasion changed your minds"
Do you REALLY think you'd get any of them to admit it now (if they have) after a year of posting as they have?
"we aren't exactly winning their hearts and minds now, are we?"
Wait!? What happened to all of the cheering mobs, the flower tossing happy people and all the millions of Iraqi's who wept with joy seeing the liberating US/UK army roll into town?
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In reply to Sandman, wouldn't it be nice to have everything work out as planned, even in our pathetic little worlds called "life" ;) Ahh, we long for that mystic orb called a crystal ball.
Good bait.Sniffed and swam the moment you posted, oh, but the smells follow the current, and I am back again. :)
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Originally posted by Airhead
Obviously a fraud; however, we aren't exactly winning their hearts and minds now, are we?
:rolleyes:
Just out of curiosity, have any of you who were formerly in favor of the Iraqi invasion changed your minds?
who's hearts and minds... the murderous thugs residing in Iraq who had no heart to begin with? These people KNOW that the US is going to turn over power soon, and they are just a minority of thugs trying to screw everything up for the rest of the Iraqis, in my opinion.
Now that we are in Iraq, I am in favor of doing everything in our power to give the country a chance to be free from these murdering sobs.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
In reply to Sandman, wouldn't it be nice to have everything work out as planned, even in our pathetic little worlds called "life" ;) Ahh, we long for that mystic orb called a crystal ball.
I'm good, I tell ya. I get replies even without posting.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I'm good, I tell ya. I get replies even without posting.
Hehe mebbe Rip really has got a crystal ball ( I wondered why he walked funny). He's replying to what you were going to post, honest. ;)
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Originally posted by boxboy28
Dear Sisters,
I call upon you because we are sisters in motherhood.
The American media described us with as "barbarians", "savages", and "criminals" in the aftermath of the mob lynching scenes of the bodies of charred Americans in Fallujah, as Iraqis beat on dead bodies then hung them off a bridge.
Well NO CHIT:mad:
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Hey idiot, the man who wrote the letter has a website, and claims full responsibilty for it. Wrong yet again....
You Must have missed the morality lessons in school concerning lying...
:rolleyes:
alot of people have websites full of bull**** and lies. Trusting the internet is like trusting a starved putbull with a baby.
And i love how saurdaukar puts words in my mouth. I condemn any goofy mass email letter for or against bush and his policys. They are all bull****.
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Why are many of u guys loving über pathetic crap like these letters (regardless where they're addressed at).
Its so bloody ridiculous! Every idiot with half a brain can write these letters and even if its genuin it tells NOTHING about the feeling of the whole population.
@Westy: Very interesting question. I remember the witch hunting on Blitz...
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Even if the letter is fake, i would love to know when were we raping and burning fields. what is there to rape in iraq? and where are these fields that we burned? i would love to know because during the YEAR that i was there i didnt see anything worth raping or burning. as for looting let me tell you that all the looting was finished before we got to any major city. pheew, i feel better. im just tired of all the anti-war tree hugging freaks in the world. we took care of a tyrant point blank.
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I'm surprised our local IntardnetMasterCopyPaster hasn't checked for snopes...
Oh wait! this is not an anty-Kerry post !
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Originally posted by Westy
Wait!? What happened to all of the cheering mobs, the flower tossing happy people and all the millions of Iraqi's who wept with joy seeing the liberating US/UK army roll into town?
They are still there. Look at the opinion polls.
Oh, but maybe you were expecting them to weep with joy every single day, and spend the rest of their lives throwing flowers at bypassing US soldiers? Like the French did after the liberation of France in 1944 perchance? I mean if its one thing that is absolutely clear it is the enormous gratitude towards the US that the french citizens display day after day after day.
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Hortlund, you are as boring and as predictable as an advertising for tampons.
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Cool! I'm game on turning this into a anti-french rant!
Who's in?!? :D
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Originally posted by Airhead
Just out of curiosity, have any of you who were formerly in favor of the Iraqi invasion changed your minds?
I was all for removing saddam, and I still am. I was not for taking the country over, occupying and telling them what they are going to do, when they are going to do it, who they are going to give contracts to, and writing THEIR constitution. If someone did that to our country, we would fight til our deaths. What we have done is conquered a country, and that is not what most here supported. The people to the far right on this BB backed Bush because they believed him when he used WMD and the war on terror as a reason to invade. Some even placed bets that we would find WMD in a matter of time. We now know that was a fools bet. I don't blame them, you should have faith in your president, not lack of. It should not be a time of "I told you so", it should be a time of "ok, what do we do now?"
It isn't about the war on terror anymore, it's about big business (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18130), there is ALOT of money to be made in Iraq, and we want it(at least the administration does), and that is not what I support. I mentioned before that the actions of OBL handed us saddam, and that is great, but it also handed us a country and a business opportunity. For the past 50 years or so we have put in puppet governments in the middle east, and it has done nothing but backfire and built hatred toward us. Now we are doing it again. They should be deciding who writes their constitution, not us, they should decide what is in it, not us.
A total pullout might not be the answer, but we shouldn't be dictating their decisions, we should be letting them decide. It's THEIR country, not ours. What we are doing is close to expansionism, and that is not what our country is about.
This is from the new Iraq constitution, and Lazs2 hit the nail on the head "A government issued licence is a licence for corruption. A way to arm one sector of the population and leave another helpless." And the population is not stupid, they see it also.
Article 17: "It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law."
BTW, of course the letter is a fake. I like that add on of rape and burning fields, crack me up.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Hortlund, you are as boring and as predictable as an advertising for tampons.
:lol
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"Because of the weapons of mass destruction your soldiers used, especially depleted uranium, we had to carry babies in our wombs for nine months only to see them born severely deformed."
:rofl :D :rofl :aok :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I'm good, I tell ya. I get replies even without posting.
LaRf! :D
Preemptive strike.
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Originally posted by Staga
Sounds just like those letters sent by "American Soldiers" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Goebbels would be surprised how easy it still is to manipulate the minds of common people.
My thoughts exactly. The beat goes on.
Think Twice Type Once
Snork
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A total pullout might not be the answer, but we shouldn't be dictating their decisions, we should be letting them decide. It's THEIR country, not ours. What we are doing is close to expansionism, and that is not what our country is about.
A total pull out is not going to happen because these people can't even police themselves properly. If they want us out of THEIR country, then they need to start acting like civilized humna beings and not street dogs.
Business may be a part of why we are there, I am not naive enough to believe that's not part of the equation. We are now there to install a US friendly government. Why should we liberate these people and then turn around and let them install another numbnut dictator?
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while i was there i believed our commitment there was to secure another operations base in the region for the goal of "noone is out of reach". as for the money, its there. i think that we are trying too hard to impress and make the world happy. we are trying, still, to make france and germany to eat their words and how better than to boast on a successful iraqi government and economy...backfire!! as for their government, their own clerics decided on who should sit in which seat. the only problem is that the iraqis do not want any Kurds or Pesh sitting in any government seat, so we had to intervene. their constitution was created by them not us. actually its not all that different than what was inplace before the war. the occupation isnt the whole problem there. the political differences between the sunni and shiite is the major problem. each one wants total control of the country. a pullout is everyones answer, we cant pullout until everything is running smooth. it is against the law of war, you take out a government you must ensure that another one is inplace before you leave. i dont like it because ill be back there next year if everything doesnt settle down
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Originally posted by Goth
A total pull out is not going to happen because these people can't even police themselves properly.
Was that before or after we helped saddam gain power?
We are now there to install a US friendly government. Why should we liberate these people and then turn around and let them install another numbnut dictator?
Ahh, again, we helped put saddam in power, not them. Another puppet government is not the solution, it has not worked in the past, and I do not see why it should work now.
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Originally posted by 101ABN
their constitution was created by them not us.
Yeah, sure.
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"Ahh, again, we helped put saddam in power, not them"
no, read the history. saddam put himself in power. the only thing that we did to help saddam was that we supported him during the Iran Iraq war.
as for the constitution, key word "clerics"
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Originally posted by 101ABN
as for the constitution, key word "clerics"
Ahh, the key word is "Bremer"
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"Ahh, again, we helped put saddam in power, not them"
please read the follwoing!
8 October 1977 Saddam was elected the Assistant Secretary General of the National Pan-Arab Leadership of the Baath Party.
1979 Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr negotiated with Syria to unify Iraq and Syria. Syrian President Hafez al-Assad would have become deputy leader of the new union, leaving Saddam's political future uncertain.
16 July 1979 Saddam forced Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr to resign and was elected as the President of Iraq and as the Chairman of Revolution Command Council.
17 July 1979 Saddam was promoted to the rank of Field Marshall.
22 July 1979 Saddam convened an assembly of Baath leaders. A list of potential opponents to Saddam was read. Those on the list were branded disloyal, removed from the assembly, and shot.
8 October 1979 Saddam was elected Deputy Secretary General of the Pan-Arab Leadership of the Baath party.
4 September 1980 Saddam initiated a war with Iran, seeking to obtain Iranian oil reserves.
1982 Former President Bakr died mysteriously. It was widely suspected that Saddam was involved.
30 July 1983 Saddam was dubbed the Revolution Order, First Class.
history class for the better of the group.
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Stop repeating yourself, what does that have to do with the constitution?
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oh yea, bremmer is a putz, i dont think that he has the ability to come up with or influence a constitution.
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Article 17: "It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law."
As you know, in the middle east it is considered a right to have a weapon. This is written to let the government decide who gets a gun. I do not believe this is what the people would want. It is what a government who wants to oppress it's people wants.
Again, i'll quote Lazs2 "A government issued licence is a licence for corruption. A way to arm one sector of the population and leave another helpless."
BTW, who hand picked these "Clerics"? The people of Iraq are having no say in their constitution.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Ahh, again, we helped put saddam in power, not them. Another puppet government is not the solution, it has not worked in the past, and I do not see why it should work now.
I don't think I mentioned a puppet government be installed, think my words were "US friendly".
Saddam was backed by the US to combat muslim extremists in Iran, do you think for one second that the US will allow muslim extremists to take over Iraq? Tell me why you think the Shiite's are so upset. Do you think the Sunni's are better?....the Kurds?
My whole point was, once again, till they can stop acting like wild neighborhood dogs, the US will continue to have an influence on the area. Yeah, it would be nice to take the oil and run, but I really do not see that as our reason for being there...others differ in opinion.
I would much rather see oil deals made with a "Us friendly" Iraqi governing body instead of occupation.
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Strange. People who call this letter "propaganda" usually believe evrything Chechen websites and other pro-terrorist media say about Russian "atrocities" in Chechnya.
OTOH, look, nothing like a boycott of 1980 Moscow Olympics is going to happen now against the US. Everything is OK in Iraq, brave Fighters for Freedom and Democracy liberated Iraq, while Evil Asian Bolshevik Hordes conquered and occupied poor freedom-loving Afghanistan. Beautiful double standards.
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Originally posted by Goth
I don't think I mentioned a puppet government be installed, think my words were "US friendly".
You say tomato, I say tomatoe.
You know the old saying tho- "When you're up to your arse in alligators it's hard to believe your initial purpose was to drain the swamp."
It doesn't matter when we leave Iraq- tomorrow, in June, five years from now- we will leave a Nation torn by civil war made much worse off from our occupation.
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Maybe I'm wrong but... for better or worse... aren't we going to pull out in June of this year?
sixpense... can you follow my logic on the license thing to the difference between what our constitution says and what the liberals and gun control nuts would have it mean? Gun control esssentialy says that you don't have the right to defend yourself... that the government has the right to arm some citizens and not others... to make some helpless and not others. Can you see that the only amendment that guarentees all the others is the second and that any erossion of the second is destroying the checks and balances that were so carefully and thoughtfully crafted by our founders.
and... I do think you should join the NRA... at this point they are the only group wih enough clout for your money to do any good. I myself do not allways agree with everything they do but they are our best hope.
lazs
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We're handing power over in June Lazs, unfortunately we will still be cycling troops in and out for the next two or three years. I was talking to someone in the military, and they said it was planned up through 2009.
-SW
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Originally posted by lazs2
Maybe I'm wrong but... for better or worse... aren't we going to pull out in June of this year?
lazs
Are we? What if the violence continues to escalate? Are we going to leave if it causes a power vaccum and leads to an Iraqi civil war?
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Originally posted by lazs2
Maybe I'm wrong but... for better or worse... aren't we going to pull out in June of this year?
sixpense... can you follow my logic on the license thing to the difference between what our constitution says and what the liberals and gun control nuts would have it mean?
lazs
I know what you are saying, and I agree. That's why article 17 in the constitution we are writing for Iraq doesn't sit very well with me, I do not want our 2nd amendment to be changed to what that says. I don't think the people of Iraq like it either.
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What SWulfe said.
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airhead... not sure that you or I can answer that question or that it is even likely to be that big an issue.
I would say that it is pretty useless to speculate at this point. I do imagine that we will be cycling troops to help but wether or not they will be targeted any more than the iraq police is not known.
lazs
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" maybe you were expecting "
You have no idea of what I was expecting. But to fill you in it was NOT to have invaded Iraq without a specific UN directive to do so. The US/UK invaded on thier own and without the UN approval.
I never bought into "for the all the WMD he's ready to sell/give away/launch", "they have terror ships/dones offshore ready to atrtack us!" "...Saddam sponsors/harbours Al Queda and other terrorists" and "He's not a nice guy you know. He won't exchange Christmas cards with us and he's mean to hi own people" baloney. The reasoning was transparant and suspect. Over the course of the last year it's been shown why. The excuses were all bullsh&t and hype.
*side note: Boroda, what do your news channels have to report about the Ukranian forces falling back/withdrawing from Kut in Iraq?
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A total pull out is not going to happen because these people can't even police themselves properly. If they want us out of THEIR country, then they need to start acting like civilized humna beings and not street dogs.
Excuse me, but what gives YOU the right to tell them what they should do in their own country.
Are you somewhat 'Superior' ? Are you the one deciding what's good/bad for everyone on earth?
I think not.
As for Iraq, it wil become a full Muslimist state, no real democracy will exist there. i give it two years at best for this to be official.
And it's THEIR choice. If they want it... let 'em have it I say.
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It was their choice to invade and pillage their neighbor Kuwait. We didn't let that choice stand and we may have to deny some of their other would be choices.
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Originally posted by AKIron
We didn't let that choice stand and we may have to deny some of their other would be choices.
Yeah, like writing their own constitution.
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Exactly, and it won't contain provisions for invading peaceful neighbors.
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LOL man i had some good *** stink bait here! well it wasnt i just wanted to see what other felt. If its real it almost pisses me off but at the same time its all a shame!
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Originally posted by AKIron
Exactly, and it won't contain provisions for invading peaceful neighbors.
Or to bear arms. You made a big deal about the 2nd amendment, yet their constitution tells them they have no right to bear arms. There seems to be a double standard here.
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Once they are in charge they can add their own second amendment. So long as they don't harbor terrorists or invade our friends we'll likely leave them to their own devices.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Once they are in charge they can add their own second amendment. So long as they don't harbor terrorists or invade our friends we'll likely leave them to their own devices.
I hope you are right, but I just don't understand writing their constitution in the first place if they are going to re-write after June 30th, especially article 17. Article 17 is something that would be written by an oppressive government, which is what I thought we were fighting against.
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I haven't read any of it yet, guess I need to. I have to agree though that if we are in fact writing it for them there is no reason for it to differ substantially from the US Constitution.
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Well, it is written by 25 "hand picked" Iraqi Clerics and being overseen by Bremer & Co.(our handprint is on it)
Here is some from a liberal site, the articles listed I believe are as written http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18267
This is from Fox http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113576,00.html
Look at article 18, they better hope there are no democrats in Iraq:lol
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It says right at the beginning "transitional period". Doesn't that mean temporary to you?
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Here ya go, from Article 3
(C) This Law shall cease to have effect upon the formation of an elected government pursuant to a permanent constitution.
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I'm trying to find how they change or amend it. You see article 7? That could end up contradicting other parts of the constitution. I don't think women are as equals in Islam, no? This is some good reading.
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I'll tell ya, this is one hell of a temporary constitution.
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The whole thing is intended only for the transitional period and becomes null and void when Iraq's democractically elected government writes it's own. I'm fine with Iraqi's not having guns until then.
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Originally posted by AKIron
The whole thing is intended only for the transitional period and becomes null and void when Iraq's democractically elected government writes it's own. I'm fine with Iraqi's not having guns until then.
Well, read article 61, it could end up as an endless cycle.
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Boroda, shouldnt you be in a bread line somewhere? Or maybe its the line for the daily vodka allotment? :rofl
As far as Iraq is concerned, I am all for the complete pull out of all our troops. I don't see any value in our troops dieing for such a screwed up country. Yes, it is screwed up and despite any and all efforts it will stay screwed up for generations to come.
They are just too stupid/gullible/stubborn to ever straighten out anytime soon.
One thing is for sure, all the other Mid-Eastern nations wouldn't be rushing in to help them stabilize and move forward in our void if we left. No, same turds who say we should leave would just blame us for leaving them unprepared for the future (everything in the future bad that happens would be all our fault).
The only solution that I see is the generous application of nuclear weapons. :aok
dago the beneficient
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no, women are not equal in a islamic nation. they have alot of seperate laws that they must follow along with the regular laws. as for the right to keep, purchase, and bear arms... i think that enland had the influence on that one. most of europe have laws out that forbit privately owned firearms. they say that it will help curb violent crimes (alot of BS in my book). as for clerics, they are given their titles because of their social status throughout their family line. when they all get together for the "loyra jurga" they talk about issues facing every providence, with every tribe. so far the clerics have changed the constitution 2 times.
and for the comment talking about who is better the sunni and shiite... either group is better. when saddam was in power the sunni had the life on easy street. when we invaded the shiite figured that it was their time in the sun, they were wrong. the kurdish population thought the same thing. as it turns out now the shiite are ticked off at us now because we havent put them on easy street.
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Originally posted by 101ABN
no, women are not equal in a islamic nation. they have alot of seperate laws that they must follow along with the regular laws. as for the right to keep, purchase, and bear arms... i think that enland had the influence on that one. most of europe have laws out that forbit privately owned firearms. they say that it will help curb violent crimes (alot of BS in my book). as for clerics, they are given their titles because of their social status throughout their family line. when they all get together for the "loyra jurga" they talk about issues facing every providence, with every tribe. so far the clerics have changed the constitution 2 times.
and for the comment talking about who is better the sunni and shiite... either group is better. when saddam was in power the sunni had the life on easy street. when we invaded the shiite figured that it was their time in the sun, they were wrong. the kurdish population thought the same thing. as it turns out now the shiite are ticked off at us now because we havent put them on easy street.
Yeah I guess they just cant handle that equallity thing:(
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Well, I can see why the temporary constitution is so complex, they could have it for a long time.
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Originally posted by bullett308
Yeah I guess they just cant handle that equallity thing:(
I brought it up because article 7 is written as follows.
Article 7.
A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period. This Law respects the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice.
(B) Iraq is a country of many nationalities, and the Arab people in Iraq are an inseparable part of the Arab nation.
Now principles of democracy does not mean equal rights for women. And Islam being a source of legislation makes me think twice.
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"... I can see why the temporary constitution is so complex, they could have it for a long time."
You mean "months" vs "days" ?
And fwiw, having a constitution doesn't mean they'll adhere to it's articles.
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Originally posted by Westy
You mean "months" vs "days" ?
No, I mean years, read article 61
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i think that you are right Sixpence, i have a feeling that we are looking at the final draft. im sure that somethings will be changed. why are we involved in the writing...so we can ensure that all people are spoken for. now there is one problem, i know alot of christians that live in Mosul and the article about iraq being a islamic state can be trouble for those christians. i just hope that another bosnia and kosovo situation doesnt start.
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Originally posted by boxboy28
Because of the weapons of mass destruction your soldiers used, especially depleted uranium....
i stopped reading here. how can anyone believe this BS.
Yes. DU shells are WMD's. Good one.
:rolleyes:
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oh lookie here what i found! another letter!
Dear coalition of evil,
you are the debil, your WMD food supplies and medicines are making our children be born with no deformities, our new found freedom of speech and our freedom to do what we like has turned us into an angry mob of terrorists. How could you do such a thing.
I demand you bring back the saddamist regime so he can kill us and terrify us.
Yours sincerely,
An un-grateful POS Iraqi.
from http://www.screw_the_ungrateful_losers_lets_nuke_em.com
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Yeah, like writing their own constitution.
Whoa, glasshoppah. You're acting as if this is something new and strange. It ain't. Defeat and depose the tyrant, occupy the country, make their form of government more like our form of government, be their foster parent for x number of years until they learn to love us. Then end of "occupation" (but with troops cycling in and out on a regular basis because now we're good buddy buddy allies.
Like ... oh ... I dunno .... these folks?
Occupation of Japan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/japanworks/japan/japanworkbook/modernhist/occupation.html)
America's Long Road to the Federal Republic of Germany (West) By Robert A. Selig (http://www.germanlife.com/Archives/1998/9806_01.html)
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Originally posted by Furball
i stopped reading here. how can anyone believe this BS.
Yes. DU shells are WMD's. Good one.
:rolleyes:
They are not WMD's.
But they do affect the population in a very bad way long after the war is over.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Whoa, glasshoppah. You're acting as if this is something new and strange. It ain't. Defeat and depose the tyrant, occupy the country, make their form of government more like our form of government, be their foster parent for x number of years until they learn to love us. Then end of "occupation" (but with troops cycling in and out on a regular basis because now we're good buddy buddy allies.
Like ... oh ... I dunno .... these folks?
Occupation of Japan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/japanworks/japan/japanworkbook/modernhist/occupation.html)
America's Long Road to the Federal Republic of Germany (West) By Robert A. Selig (http://www.germanlife.com/Archives/1998/9806_01.html)
Arlo I think you are on to something.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Whoa, glasshoppah. You're acting as if this is something new and strange. It ain't. Defeat and depose the tyrant, occupy the country, make their form of government more like our form of government, be their foster parent for x number of years until they learn to love us. Then end of "occupation" (but with troops cycling in and out on a regular basis because now we're good buddy buddy allies.
Like ... oh ... I dunno .... these folks?
Occupation of Japan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/japanworks/japan/japanworkbook/modernhist/occupation.html)
America's Long Road to the Federal Republic of Germany (West) By Robert A. Selig (http://www.germanlife.com/Archives/1998/9806_01.html)
Oh, I didn't know Iraq declared war on us , or that we conquered Iraq. I thought this was about getting saddam and OBL? Germany declared war on us, so did Japan. I do not recall Iraq doing such a thing. Expansionism isn't new and strange either, that doesn't make it right. Uprising against an occupying force isn't new and strange either, shoot, you might as well make the comparison that the people uprising are like the Patriots that fought off England, hey, look how that turned out right? So according to your logic, they will keep rising, fight off the occupying force, write their own constitution, and become another United States.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
A total pullout might not be the answer, but we shouldn't be dictating their decisions, we should be letting them decide. It's THEIR country, not ours. What we are doing is close to expansionism, and that is not what our country is about.
I don't disagree with the principle, but we're talking about a country that doesn't know democracy. Letting them decide? They wouldn't understand the concept of being able to make decisions of that magnitude for themselves.
I was all in favour of toppling Saddam, but saw the campaign as unfinished business from 1991 based on breaches of UN resolutions made at that time. But either the intelligence services CIA/MI6 let us down badly, or Saddam was able to ship out his WMD during the months of UN prevarication. As the latter could have been observed by space satellite, perhaps the former is more likely.
As we have seen, there is a lot of pent up anger in Iraq, a lot of fanaticism... if the US/UK alliance pulled out of Iraq now, the fanatics would gain control and there might even be a civil war, and Iraq would end up with another tyrant in power. And the whole war effort would have been for nothing. That cannot be allowed to happen.
The US under Bush has made its bed. Now it has to lie in it.
yes - the original Iraqi letter definitely looks like a put up job.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don't disagree with the principle, but we're talking about a country that doesn't know democracy. Letting them decide? They wouldn't understand the concept of being able to make decisions of that magnitude for themselves.
Well, the United States didn't quite know democracy either, we just fought off a king and decided to create a democracy. As you can see, we have done quite well for ourselves. We make the people of Iraq out to be very stupid and ignorant, and use that as an excuse to dictate to them.
I was all in favour of toppling Saddam, but saw the campaign as unfinished business from 1991 based on breaches of UN resolutions made at that time. But either the intelligence services CIA/MI6 let us down badly, or Saddam was able to ship out his WMD during the months of UN prevarication. As the latter could have been observed by space satellite, perhaps the former is more likely.
I do not think there is a person on this BB who does not agree that we needed to get saddam. But I thought after we got him that the UN would be brought back in. But the attitude of the administration is that "hey, we spent all the $$ and American lives to get him, we want those rebuilding contracts". And although that may be a good point, as an American, and being brought up on the principles of doing the right thing, it just doesn't sit very well in my mind.
As we have seen, there is a lot of pent up anger in Iraq, a lot of fanaticism... if the US/UK alliance pulled out of Iraq now, the fanatics would gain control and there might even be a civil war, and Iraq would end up with another tyrant in power. And the whole war effort would have been for nothing. That cannot be allowed to happen.
Well, every country goes through it's growing pains, we had one bloody civil war ourselves. That being said, we cannot pull out, but we can start letting them, as a people, be more involved with the way their country is formed. Hopefully after June 30th that will happen, i'm willing to see it through another year. And if the people of Iraq are voting then, then maybe they will see what democracy is and the uprising in the streets will stop, and the uprising at the voting booth will start.
The US under Bush has made its bed. Now it has to lie in it.
No, OBL made his bed, and in the process(fair or not is moot now), made Iraq's too.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
No, OBL made his bed, and in the process(fair or not is moot now), made Iraq's too.
I don't know of any direct link between Saddam and OBL. I do remember the Iraqi payoffs to the bereaved families of the 911 suicide pilots - $25,000 apiece.
But no-one forced the US to go to war with Iraq, and certainly not OBL. Many were opposed to the war.
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Like I said, fair or not, that is what happened. You cannot unring a bell.
And as far as Bush and America's bed, last I knew, Blair and UK were in the same bed.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I don't know of any direct link between Saddam and OBL. I do remember the Iraqi payoffs to the bereaved families of the 911 suicide pilots - $25,000 apiece.
there may not be a direct link between OBL and Saddam but there was a link between the Baath Party and Al Queda. there is a top AQ LT in iraq right now. after 9-11 Bush stated that we are declaring war on terrorism and those who harbor terrorist. so far Afghanistan and Iraq were dealt with, and there are many more in our scope. lets just hope that these countries come clean like many have already.
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Originally posted by bullett308
Yeah I guess they just cant handle that equallity thing:(
saddam's iraq was the most free islamic country out there. you can drink beer and whiskey, women can wear western style clothes, and they can hold jobs. in the more traditional islamic society, women can only leave their house with their husbands, they have to be covered head to toe..to include their face, they are not allowed to attend public schools, and they are not allowed to have a job outside the house. kinda stinks if you ask me. most of the islamic world thought of saddam pretty much the way they think about us.... infidels
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sixpense... taking away the bizzare lefty spin put on everything by the lefty site you pointed to....
Their view on the right to bear arms is no more, and possibly less oppressive than say that of england or ... now, sadly, australia..
They (iraq)give the government the power to refuse the right to "licence' a citizen to own any type of firearm under the sun... england and auatralia also require "license' but have federal laws that outright ban weapons. No such iraq bans exist at this point.
both england and australia have removed the human right to defence.... they have replaced it with nothing since they can not defend any individual.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sixpense... taking away the bizzare lefty spin put on everything by the lefty site you pointed to....
Hey now, I gave you the fox link too!
Their view on the right to bear arms is no more, and possibly less oppressive than say that of england or ... now, sadly, australia..
And we sure give em hell for it.
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england though that banning firearms would curd violent crime, well it hasnt. heck the annual crime rate hasnt even changed all that much.
like the old saying states "if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns"
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Great. An interesting thread about Iraq has turned into a US/UK pissing thread about guns. :rolleyes:
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"there may not be a direct link between OBL and Saddam but there was a link between the Baath Party and Al Queda. "
Got a link or are you just remembering the debunked (shown to be false) declarations from Bush and Rumsfield?
"there is a top AQ LT in iraq right now. "
No sh$t sherlock. Because now every Muslim extremist nutjob in the MiddleEast is heeding the call for a holywar on US/UK forces because in Iraq is where they're at. Or did the US/UK invade Iraq in 2003 because they knew there'd be an AQ LT in Iraq in 2004?
re: Arlo and postwar Japan and Germany. Arlo, those two worked out (re: the Marshal Plan) because the Japanese and Germans capilutated. They surrendered and thier armed forces respected that decision. This has not happen in Iraq in the least. There was no surrender by anyone at all..
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Originally posted by Arlo
Whoa, glasshoppah. You're acting as if this is something new and strange. It ain't. Defeat and depose the tyrant, occupy the country, make their form of government more like our form of government, be their foster parent for x number of years until they learn to love us. Then end of "occupation" (but with troops cycling in and out on a regular basis because now we're good buddy buddy allies.
Like ... oh ... I dunno .... these folks?
Occupation of Japan (http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/japanworks/japan/japanworkbook/modernhist/occupation.html)
America's Long Road to the Federal Republic of Germany (West) By Robert A. Selig (http://www.germanlife.com/Archives/1998/9806_01.html)
Since this parallel rears its head yet again:
Does anyone have figures on how many Allied troops were killed after hostilities were over during the Occupation of Germany or Japan by insurgents?
And how many cities did the occupation forces lose control of due to uprisings?
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Hortlund, you are as boring and as predictable as an advertising for tampons.
but not nearly as useful...
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Bunch of B.S., nothing more.