Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hristo on April 07, 2004, 02:49:50 PM
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Just watching the Pentagon briefing. What a load of bull.
A handful of terrorists, islamic extremists and thugs are hindering Iraq's progress towards democracy ? Well, how small their number according to Pentagon is, they sure make a big bang.
Not only that, but they almost managed to do the impossible - to unite Shia and Sunni in fight against common enemy.
So, let's hear your opinions. Who exactly is shooting at US troops and colaborationist Iraq government troops in Iraq ?
Are they terrorists ? Why ? What defines terrorism ?
Are they antisocial elements just looking for trouble ?
Are they mindless religious fanatics ?
Are they freedom fighters ?
Are they elements of former regime fighting to bring back forgotten Saddam ?
Al Qaida elements ?
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Originally posted by Hristo
Not only that, but they almost managed to do the impossible - to unite Shia and Sunni in fight against common enemy.
So, let's hear your opinions. Who exactly is shooting at US troops and colaborationist Iraq government troops in Iraq ?
Zhawari (spell) issued a statement calling on sunnis to attack shias... So what exactly are they united over?
As far as my opinion of who is who, why bother you can tell by the wording of your question you already have it all figured out..
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My wording aside, who is killing the coalition troops in Iraq ?
You read Zahawri's statement ? IS he that stupid ? Who published the statement ?
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Originally posted by Hristo
You read Zahawri's statement ? IS he that stupid ? Who published the statement ?
Its is an audio tape on arab tv. this isnt the first time he has called on sunnis to attack shias.
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histro cheers on the terrorists once again
wtg histro - you american hating little man
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And WTG Eagler !
Went straight to name calling, personal attack and "America hating" stuff.
Why don't you answer the questions instead ?
Why are insurgents terrorists ? Usually the terrorists attack civilians. These seem to be attacking armed forces, so another name might be more apropriate.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Its is an audio tape on arab tv. this isnt the first time he has called on sunnis to attack shias.
Then it is stupid, IMO. Would add to the chaos situation image, but wouldn't help their cause.
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Who are they? Iranians, syrians....
I'd be willing to bet 100 dollars that there are no more then 5 true Iraqi insurgents doing stuff like this.
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Iraqis that don't like being occupied.
non Iraqi muslims that don't like having Arab land occupied.
People that just want to kill the "infidels".
People that have had their friends and/or relatives killed and want revenge.
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Originally posted by stiehl
Iraqis that don't like being occupied.
non Iraqi muslims that don't like having Arab land occupied.
People that just want to kill the "infidels".
People that have had their friends and/or relatives killed and want revenge.
People with a suicide wish.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Who are they? Iranians, syrians....
I'd be willing to bet 100 dollars that there are no more then 5 true Iraqi insurgents doing stuff like this.
You'd lose that bet. This time around we are dealing with Iraqi groups: Sunni Arabs form the tribes around Falluja and Ramadi and Shi'a Arabs further south. There will be some foreigner involved (other Arabs in the SUnni triangle and likely some Iranians with the Shi'a) but all evidence points this being an Iraqi upriosing. Of course it is still a minority of Iraqis but it is Sadr and the Falluja tribal leaders who are calling the shots. Whether they have finally made common cause or each is taking advantage of the others uprising remains to be seen.
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Who cares..Freedom and democracy is wasted on the arabs. They don't want it. I trully believe that they prefer to be kept under the thumb of a few prominent people. If not, then all arab nations would have had revolutions by now on their own.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Who cares..Freedom and democracy is wasted on the arabs. They don't want it. I trully believe that they prefer to be kept under the thumb of a few prominent people. If not, then all arab nations would have had revolutions by now on their own.
Very good point.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Who cares..Freedom and democracy is wasted on the arabs. They don't want it. I trully believe that they prefer to be kept under the thumb of a few prominent people. If not, then all arab nations would have had revolutions by now on their own.
Which raises the point of why we are there in the first place: if it wasn't for WMDs and now it isn't to replace Hussein with a representative and just goverment what are we doing?
We cannot pull out now and leave a bigger mess than we started, and there are many Iraqis, who, while they have little love for the US and it's allies, don't want to live in another totalitarian state and don't want a civil war.
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MT, it worked pretty well for the Vietnamese.
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Originally posted by Hristo
So, let's hear your opinions. Who exactly is shooting at US troops and colaborationist Iraq government troops in Iraq ?
Are they terrorists ? Why ? What defines terrorism ?
Are they antisocial elements just looking for trouble ?
Are they mindless religious fanatics ?
Are they freedom fighters ?
Are they elements of former regime fighting to bring back forgotten Saddam ?
Al Qaida elements ?
g) All the above.
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Yes Hristo, this Muqtada al Sadr is a modern day George Washington....
I do have to ask do you really think heavily armed gangs loyal one to one person are conducive to a democracy?
I know you dislike the usa, thats your right, but really are you thinking through the tings you are saying?
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Muqtada al Sadr doesn’t have wide spread support among the Shi’a. If the entire Shi’a population supported him the US and coalition forces we be in far more trouble.
What he has is core radical group, he gets money from Iran and his people have access to the many weapons caches in Iraq. Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani and other Shi’a leaders have no love for Sadr. In fact here has been open conflict between the 2.
Sistani is a coward and instead of coming out against Sadr he holds back and will allow the US to deal with Sadr.
Sadr people and the Sunni's aren't "working" together. Sadr most likely used the situation in the Sunni triangle to "act up".
Why is Sadr acting up now? Because the closer Iraq moves towards self-government the quicker he will be pushed aside.
Hristo,
You make some of the most ridiculous assumptions.
to unite Shia and Sunni in fight against common enemy
Non-sense, provide your source? You just made that up didn’t you? Because if know anything about the differences between the Sunni and Shi’a you would know how asinine that assumption is.
Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, Muqtada al Sadr father, was assassinated along with two of his sons by agents of Saddam Hussein in Al-Najaf in 1999. The Sadiq al-Sadr killing intensified Shi’a anger at the ruling Sunni minority and led to more severe government repression of the Shi’a. The Shi'a resistance also took the form of bolder actions against the regime, including hand grenade and rocket attacks on security headquarters, Ba’ath Party offices, and presidential residences in Baghdad, as well as small arms attacks in many parts of the capital. This prior to the US invasion.
Muqtada al-Sadr and his young followers have sought to replace more traditional factions as the voice of Iraq's Shiite majority. The al-Sadr family portrays themselves as the ones doing the most to redress decades of suppression by Sunni Muslims under the Saddam's rule.
The al-Sadr group has drawn charges of involvement in attacks and intimidation in Al-Najaf that have highlighted political differences among Shi'a political organizations. The most notable of those attacks was a mob killing of a pro-US cleric, Abd al-Majid al-Khoi, shortly after his return from exile in London in early April. Al-Khoi was himself the son of another extremely powerful former grand ayatollah, Abolqassem al-Khoi. Al-Khoi was murdered as he emerged from the city's Imam Ali Mosque in a gesture of reconciliation with the mosque's custodian, who was popularly considered to have collaborated with Hussein's regime. The custodian was killed along with al-Khoi and it is unclear whether al-Khoi was an assassination target or was struck down because he tried to defend the other man.
Immediately after al-Khoi's murder, supporters of al-Sadr surrounded the house of another grand ayatollah in Al-Najaf, Ali Sistani, in what was taken to be a gesture of intimidation. Sistani -- who has said that Shi'a leaders should limit themselves to religious questions and stay out of politics -- went into hiding and only re-emerged after tribesmen loyal to him raced to Al-Najaf.
Sadr’s followers (Al-Mahdi Army) have had more recent clashes with Sistani followers as well.
You used phrase like "Iraq is like Vietnam". More non-sense. Do a little search on Vietnam and educate yourself.
The more you speak the more ignorant it appears you are.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes Hristo, this Muqtada al Sadr is a modern day George Washington....
I do have to ask do you really think heavily armed gangs loyal one to one person are conducive to a democracy?
Certainly not. That means problems.
I know you dislike the usa, thats your right, but really are you thinking through the tings you are saying?
I don't dislike USA. I like Mc Donalds, I like AMD, I like Sandra Bullock. Why should I dislike it ?
I dislike US policy towards third world, especially when they have natural resources. I dislike Bush and Rumsfeld for being liars with hidden agenda. A kind of deja vu that Iraq, don't you think ?
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Originally posted by Batz
Hristo,
You make some of the most ridiculous assumptions.
Non-sense, provide your source? You just made that up didn’t you? Because if know anything about the differences between the Sunni and Shi’a you would know how asinine that assumption is.
No, haven't made it up. It was an Al Jazeera journalist on CNN who said it. Didn't tape it tho.
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Ok so why are you then seeming to put a positive spin on the activities of these gangs in the context of this thread on iraqi democracy?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok so why are you then seeming to put a positive spin on the activities of these gangs in the context of this thread on iraqi democracy?
Because I don't see them as gangs. Instead, I see them as freedom fighters.
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Originally posted by Batz
You used phrase like "Iraq is like Vietnam". More non-sense. Do a little search on Vietnam and educate yourself.
The more you speak the more ignorant it appears you are.
Iraq is like urban Vietnam is what I said.
Similarities : guerilla uprising (although urban, not in jungle), puppet government (inefficient), increasing US involvement, death ratio heavy in favor of US troops, as time passes the war is less and less popular
Differences: no superpower support for guerrilas (only Arab nations), US mercenaries (civilian contractors), this war is about oil
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No support for VC or NV? Ever heard of China or the Soviet Union?
But that’s not the point. Iraq is not an "Urban Vietnam". Not in terms of casualties, number combatants, or based on the level of domestic opposition. The US forces hands are not tied by cold war political concerns etc. Also Vietnam was more then a "guerilla uprising".
There is no comparison to Vietnam. That’s just another silly statement you must have picked up from CNN or Al-Jazeera.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Because I don't see them as gangs. Instead, I see them as freedom fighters.
So gangs loyal to a single individual are bad for democracy while freedom fighters loyal to single individual are good for democracy?
BTW the ultimate difference, unce you cut throughall the bs, between a freedom fighter and a teeorist is your perspective and your preference. I see that you are siding with either pro-saddam baathits and/or militant extrimst islamics loyaly to al qaeda or mr sadr. Thats too bad.
You must be delusional if you think any of thouse groups are yearning to give any sort of freedoms to iraqi people..
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Originally posted by Hristo
And WTG Eagler !
Went straight to name calling, personal attack and "America hating" stuff.
Why don't you answer the questions instead ?
Why are insurgents terrorists ? Usually the terrorists attack civilians. These seem to be attacking armed forces, so another name might be more apropriate.
keep praising those "freedom fighters" histro, they are ur heros right?
and you can say with a straight face that you do not despise America? I don't think so ...
I think you and those with similiar mindset hope big bad America fails in her attempt at establishing a democracy in the mid east. Every newscast with dead westerners is a good newscast...
though as someone else stated above, those in the mid east may not be civil/educated enough to handle anything other than a dictator, a ruthless one at that..
ps
it is about more than Iraq WMDs, it is about more than Iraq, always was ... history will bear this out.
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He doesn’t even know who it is that is resisting. Freedom Fighters? Who are the fighters and who are they liberating? Neither the Sunnis nor Sadr's people represent the will of the Iraqis.
Hristo sounds more like Goebbels when he heard that "shots" were exchanged between Soviet and US troops in '45. He's just latching on to tiniest bit of "good news" to convince himself is "right all along".
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Please stay civil and do not go to personal insults. How else can I believe US is bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq if US citizens cannot control themselves on this board ?
Anyway, I do not sympathize Hussein or al-Sadr.
I, however, sympathize with little people who are standing up against the aggressor.
Yes, I know this has many faces as well, as not everyone is there for good motives. But in general, I sympathize with Iraqi uprising. You can quote me for this anytime.
If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Please stay civil and do not go to personal insults. How else can I believe US is bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq if US citizens cannot control themselves on this board ?
Anyway, I do not sympathize Hussein or al-Sadr.
I, however, sympathize with little people who are standing up against the aggressor.
Yes, I know this has many faces as well, as not everyone is there for good motives. But in general, I sympathize with Iraqi uprising. You can quote me for this anytime.
If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.
then u r a terrorist lover, cheering the death of every american and her allies, hoping democracy (the wish of the MAJORITY of Iraqis) does not succeed .. just as I have stated all along which makes my statements true and not a personal attack but a description of ur creepy self <- THAT is a personal attack a-hole <- as is THAT!
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I agree Eagler !
Hristo you don't follow the party line !
You're a traitor be prepared to make your auto-critic in front of the soviet !
It remind me something ...where did I hear that for the 1st time ?
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Originally posted by Hristo
Please stay civil and do not go to personal insults. How else can I believe US is bringing democracy and freedom to Iraq if US citizens cannot control themselves on this board ?
Anyway, I do not sympathize Hussein or al-Sadr.
I, however, sympathize with little people who are standing up against the aggressor.
Yes, I know this has many faces as well, as not everyone is there for good motives. But in general, I sympathize with Iraqi uprising. You can quote me for this anytime.
If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.
Sounds to me like you want Iraq to return to a totalitarian state with state sponsored terrorism again, for the "sake of the little people" who apparently by your definition "need to be repressed". Maybe the next dictator could raise that $25,000 to families of "martyrs" to $50,000 ? That'd be a good boost for the "Freedom Fighters" wouldn't it?
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Originally posted by Hristo
If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.
You hope it will be succesful.. Ok..
What outcome will result out of a succesul uprising?
And also you say you are not supporting al sadr, but rather the "little people." has it ever dawned on you for a second that al-sadr is maipulating these "little people" to enhance his own political power? You are so willing attribuite evil motives to Bush, yet yiou seem to be so blissfully naive towards the motives of the other side...
BTW how much did you sympathize with the serbs in Knin area? I mean standing up against the evil croat fascist state all around them... Were they freedom fighers too?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You hope it will be succesful.. Ok..
What outcome will result out of a succesul uprising?
And also you say you are not supporting al sadr, but rather the "little people." has it ever dawned on you for a second that al-sadr is maipulating these "little people" to enhance his own political power? You are so willing attribuite evil motives to Bush, yet yiou seem to be so blissfully naive towards the motives of the other side...
BTW how much did you sympathize with the serbs in Knin area? I mean standing up against the evil croat fascist state all around them... Were they freedom fighers too?
Little people are always manipulated, so much that it is inevitable. But at least let them be manipulated by Iraqis, not someone else.
Single persons in command of large armed formations are always dangerous. Bush has already proven it. I do not doubt al Sadr will turn out worse than it seems now. But for now it is all they've got.
Your Knin remark almost brings me to start insulting you. A nice spin, these two wars are totally different. Elaborating it here would take too much and we all know what you wanted to accomplish by mentioning it here. Instead of you patronizing me, let me ask you then - what have you done to help free Croatia back in the 90s ? I have spent my time where it counted. Where did you spend yours ?
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To paraphrase Oscar Wilde:
"To lose one city may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose
two looks like carelessness." :D
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Hristo, you are about to convince me that all these flag-waving, war mongering American cowboys are right about the spineless, terrorist-sympathising euroturds like yourself.
I'm about as critical of this war as it gets over here and even I understand we cannot just pull out. Seriously, what good do you see in America withdrawing from Iraq before incubating a stable, self-sufficient government over there?
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Originally posted by Lance
Hristo, you are about to convince me that all these flag-waving, war mongering American cowboys are right about the spineless, terrorist-sympathising euroturds like yourself.
I'm about as critical of this war as it gets over here and even I understand we cannot just pull out. Seriously, what good do you see in America withdrawing from Iraq before incubating a stable, self-sufficient government over there?
quoted for truth
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Originally posted by Hristo
If uprising will be successful, I do not know. I surely hope it will.
You're a naive fool. The groups who fight against America hinder progress toward democracy because they stand to lose the most under a democratic system. As minorities, the Sunnis by definition face a future guaranteeing their political marginalization. As such, they fight to preserve their power base and undermine any move toward representative government.
Al-Sadr likewise faces political obscurity if things progress as planned; he represents a small fraction of Shiites in Iraq. In an NPR piece on him about four months back, they noted that he used thugs to intimidate and chase off civilian contractors who attempted to renovate or otherwise improve the slums where most of his followers lived. When the slum dwellers wondered why they did not see any of the lifestyle improvements promised to them by the Americans, Al-Sadr called Americans liars and thieves and fanned the flames of anti-Americanism when he himself was to blame for their persistent lack of improvement.
(I believe this (http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1463441) links to the story)
These are not freedom fighters, at least not in any modern sense of the word. They fight for political power in a land where Hussein's defeat left a massive power vacuum. Don't pretend that they represent the Iraqi people generally or that they hold their best interests at heart. They don't seek to overthrow oppressors so much as they seek, themselves, to oppress. Do you honestly believe that whatever "freedom" they offer to the Iraqi people represents what most Iraqis desire?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Hristo
Your Knin remark almost brings me to start insulting you. A nice spin, these two wars are totally different. Elaborating it here would take too much and we all know what you wanted to accomplish by mentioning it here. Instead of you patronizing me, let me ask you then - what have you done to help free Croatia back in the 90s ? I have spent my time where it counted. Where did you spend yours ?
I was helping the serb freedom fighters in knin by hoping they would win, surely!!!
You see Hristo you can make a similar case about the freedom fighters in Knin...
Did they want croatian "freedom?" Obviously not!
Did they have any reason to trust croatian government with alterior secret motives? No...
Surely they would rather be opressed and maipulated by Miloshevic than Tudjman? Right, hes their own guy?
They were only the litlle people defending their homes against croatian facsists, who were around them, remaember it was only short time ago that croatian nazis killed so many...
They were just defending thair way of life and their families.
Everyone knows that a serb supporter would in his mind be justified in making such an agumenet. A serb, or Boroda for example would say just that. To him they would be freedom fighters....
VICTORY TO SERB FREEDOM FIGHTERS OF KNIN!!!!
And that is exactly the argument you are making, that these arrorant selfish power hungry thugs are not criminals but rather well wishing freedom fighters...
What Hristo? Not so comfy with freedom fighters now are you?
:rolleyes:
Now that was disguisting to type Hristo, but neccesray...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I was helping the serb freedom fighters in knin by hoping they would win, surely!!!
You see Hristo you can make a similar case about the freedom fighters in Knin...
Did they want croatian "freedom?" Obviously not!
Did they have any reason to trust croatian government with alterior secret motives? No...
Surely they would rather be opressed and maipulated by Miloshevic than Tudjman? Right, hes their own guy?
They were only the litlle people defending their homes against croatian facsists, who were around them, remaember it was only short time ago that croatian nazis killed so many...
They were just defending thair way of life and their families.
Everyone knows that a serb supporter would be 100% justified in making such an agument in his own mind. A serb, or Boroda for example would say just that. To him they would be freedom fighters....
VICTORY TO SERB FREEDOM FIGHTERS OF KNIN!!!!
What Hristo? Not so comfy with freedom fighters now are you?
:rolleyes:
Now that was disguisting to type Hristo, but neccesray...
This is rather insane logic, I must say. There is no parallel between Serbs in Krajina and Iraqis in Iraq. Serbs in Krajina were fighting an aggressive war to gain land. Iraqis in Iraq are fighting to have their land back. If you want similarity, Croats could be called freedom fighters back then and Serbs the aggressors.
Croatia was invaded by federal army, helped greatly by local Serbs. So, actually, Croats were freedom fighters.
I don't see how Serbs could be labeled freedom fighters as they were imported from Serbia proper. The local forces were never a factor, they were overrun in 3 days once they were left without support.
I really don't see how can you twist facts like this, but in the spirit of attacking me, I guess it is in order.
However, you still haven't answered where were you when your country needed you. Perhaps an ocean away ? You can mail me at ntomlino@globalnet.hr if you want to find where I was.
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Originally posted by Batz
Muqtada al Sadr doesn’t have wide spread support among the Shi’a. If the entire Shi’a population supported him the US and coalition forces we be in far more trouble.
That might not be the case anymore.
"NY Times
WASHINGTON, April 7 — United States forces are confronting a broad-based Shiite uprising that goes well beyond supporters of one militant Islamic cleric who has been the focus of American counterinsurgency efforts, United States intelligence officials said Wednesday.
That assertion contradicts repeated statements by the Bush administration and American officials in Iraq. On Wednesday, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that they did not believe the United States was facing a broad-based Shiite insurgency. Administration officials have portrayed Moktada al-Sadr, a rebel Shiite cleric who is wanted by American forces, as the catalyst of the rising violence within the Shiite community of Iraq.
But intelligence officials now say that there is evidence that the insurgency goes beyond Mr. Sadr and his militia, and that a much larger number of Shiites have turned against the American-led occupation of Iraq, even if they are not all actively aiding the uprising."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/international/middleeast/08SHIA.html?ex=1082088000
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Thanks for allowing me to post though, I doubt I could go post pro US view on an Iraqi board, I give you that.
Still, letting it all out like Funked or Eagler doesn't help. Why don't you guys go take a walk in downtown Baghdad and tell the Iraqis to eat **** and die, eh ? I mean, it is liberated afterall.
As for uprising and warlords, I know full well what dangers it implies - you don't have to remind me. Nobody is clean, nobody is an angel, that's for certain, and especially in Iraq. But at least Iraqis should be allowed to decide for themselves, not Bremer and his thugs.
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No hristo... I'm not attcking you. If I was it would be obvious..
However to a serb your explaination is insuficent, it is biased and based on croatian fascist propaganda. To him the knin area fighters were freedom fighters, battling to save ther families agains the threat of a new ustasa state. You know thats how they felt.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Thanks for allowing me to post though, I doubt I could go post pro US view on an Iraqi board, I give you that.
Still, letting it all out like Funked or Eagler doesn't help. Why don't you guys go take a walk in downtown Baghdad and tell the Iraqis to eat **** and die, eh ? I mean, it is liberated afterall.
As for uprising and warlords, I know full well what dangers it implies - you don't have to remind me. Nobody is clean, nobody is an angel, that's for certain, and especially in Iraq. But at least Iraqis should be allowed to decide for themselves, not Bremer and his thugs.
Muqtada al-Sadr would allow you to post!!!! and he would allow Iraqis to decide for themselves!!!
Its funny you consider al-Sadr terror gangs to be freedom fighters while you describe Bremer and the us army as thugs...
Why should we belive for one second that your staements and opions are not mostly dervided from some hatred against the usa? Yiu must see that it comes across as such?
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DMF makes good point about Al-Sadr. Al Sadr certainly is not a man to trust.
However, he is a product of this war. A bad man for bad times, but who is to blame ? Who started the war in the first place ?
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Originally posted by Hristo
DMF makes good point about Al-Sadr. Al Sadr certainly is not a man to trust.
However, he is a product of this war. A bad man for bad times, but who is to blame ? Who started the war in the first place ?
Correct, lets not support the al-sadr loyal militia, we should let the ex Baath party freedom fightors win and then the coalition authority should pull and pull the out troops and free Saddam from jail so he can contionue his benevolent rule over the iraqi people...
BTW if you say that al-Sadr cant be trusted then why are yiou wishing that HIS military forces win, the very forces that he has under his sole and direct control?
What do you think he will do with that power if his forces, AS YOU WANT THEM TO, win?
If the insurgency wins al-sadr wins.
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Why should "we" be supporting, deciding or letting anyone do anything in Iraq ? It all started because of "we".
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btw Hristo, just curious, what country do you come from?
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Croatia.
US asked our government to send troops to Iraq recently. Yea, right, let's send our boys to die for someone else.
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Grun, there are indications that the Sunnis and Shia are coordinating.
Iraq's interior and human rights ministers have resigned,
according to pan-Arab TV station Al-Arabiya on 8 April.
"Kazakhstan withdraws its contingent of troops in Iraq
ALMATY, April 8 (AFP) - Amid growing unrest in Iraq,
Kazakhstan's Defence Minister Mukhtar Altynbayev on Thursday said
that his country was withdrawing its small contingent of troops from
the war-riven country.
"We propose not to send another contingent to Iraq" after the
current deployment of 27 servicemen -- military engineers and other
staff -- ends on May 30"
A pretty ugly picture is starting to be painted. :(
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Originally posted by Hristo
Croatia.
US asked our government to send troops to Iraq recently. Yea, right, let's send our boys to die for someone else.
Funny.... You just reminded me of something else too...
Were the Krajina serbs freedom fighters when they were being bombed by agressor US planes during the 95 USA/Croat storm offensive?
I mean what earthly intrest did evil US forces have in taking back that small part of a minor euro nation?
Shouldnt have clinton said:
Yea, right, let's send our boys to die for someone else.
When the issue of helping croatia take back krajina came up?
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Let's say that US bombing story was actually true for a moment (and I believe it is).
What does it prove ? That US is no satan, that it isn't always wrong and it actually does good things.
Iraq certainly is not one of those things.
You really believe US didn't ask anything in return ? Please.
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Originally posted by Hristo
DMF makes good point about Al-Sadr. Al Sadr certainly is not a man to trust.
However, he is a product of this war. A bad man for bad times, but who is to blame ? Who started the war in the first place ?
Iraq, when it invaded a peaceful neighbor in '91. Why is this so often forgotten?
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And while you're at it, why don't you attack Germany for invading Poland in 1939 ? ;)
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Originally posted by Hristo
And while you're at it, why don't you attack Germany for invading Poland in 1939 ? ;)
LOL we did.
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If these insurgents were fighting for self determination for Iraq, they would only need to wait until June 30. I'm sure they have some other agenda which does not involve democracy. On the brighter side, these are the people Americans need to be fighting and destroying in the overall war on terrorism, for Iraqi democracy and American society are both their targets.
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Originally posted by Hristo
You really believe US didn't ask anything in return ? Please.
Stability in the middle east Is our payoff.
It helps the Usa In more than one way(oil).
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Originally posted by Rasker
If these insurgents were fighting for self determination for Iraq, they would only need to wait until June 30. I'm sure they have some other agenda which does not involve democracy. On the brighter side, these are the people Americans need to be fighting and destroying in the overall war on terrorism, for Iraqi democracy and American society are both their targets.
How true they are playing right into our hands arent they.
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Originally posted by bullett308
LOL we did.
I know. How about second time now, like Iraq ? ;)
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Originally posted by Rasker
If these insurgents were fighting for self determination for Iraq, they would only need to wait until June 30. I'm sure they have some other agenda which does not involve democracy. On the brighter side, these are the people Americans need to be fighting and destroying in the overall war on terrorism, for Iraqi democracy and American society are both their targets.
What magic thing will happen after June 30 ? You mean when Bremer recognizes the results ? You believe US will recognize anything it doesn't suit its plans with Iraq ?
When will you realize that it is wrong to go invade another country and force anything on them - be that a democracy or occupation like Iraq ?
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..
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Originally posted by Hristo
I know. How about second time now, like Iraq ? ;)
Did we ever leave Germany? Seems that we still have troops there?
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I wonder how many people appreciate the irony that these "Al-Sadr" insurgents are the same faction of Shia "freedom fighters" that rose up against SH after the Gulf War.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I wonder how many people appreciate the irony that these "Al-Sadr" insurgents are the same faction of Shia "freedom fighters" that rose up against SH after the Gulf War.
They wanted power then same as now.
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Originally posted by AKIron
They wanted power then same as now.
But most people said they fighting for freedom after the Gulf War. You know the 3000+ buried in mass graves. Fighting agianst the opression of SH.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
But most people said they fighting for freedom after the Gulf War. You know the 3000+ buried in mass graves. Fighting agianst the opression of SH.
So, are you suggesting that American forces are oppressing them like Saddam Hussein?
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Originally posted by AKIron
So, are you suggesting that American forces are oppressing them like Saddam Hussein?
I don't think so. Perhaps they do. I didn't mean to come across like that. What I'm upset about is the people that go around using stupid spin words. And think that by using different labels for people somehow changes the people.
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It's a fact that Hussein brutally oppressed many Iraqis. It isn't inconsistent to say that those wanting to throw off his yoke of oppression also wanted to establish their own power base. I most certainly would if I were in their shoes, why trade one brutal dictator for another? However, we aren't going to let a minority take control of the country undemocratically, even if we have to use force to suspress this uprising.
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You actually get upset from this bb's dribble?
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Originally posted by AKIron
It's a fact that Hussein brutally oppressed many Iraqis. It isn't inconsistent to say that those wanting to throw off his yoke of oppression also wanted to establish their own power base.
I agree. I just wonder what kind of repsonse I would have gotten by some on this BBS. If I suggest as little as two weeks ago that, "The Shia that rose up against SH after the Gulf War did for power politic reasons.". I don't think some would have been to kind.
I hope some see this a bit of wake call, that simple lables might make it easier to see things as black and white, but things usually aren't black and white.
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Originally posted by AKIron
However, we aren't going to let a minority take control of the country undemocratically, even if we have to use force to suspress this uprising.
Well that's what you did in the '69 coup, things have changed i suppose.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I hope some see this a bit of wake call, that simple lables might make it easier to see things as black and white, but things usually aren't black and white.
Can't argue with that.
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Originally posted by Torque
You actually get upset from this bb's dribble?
Sometimes. It depends on who I'm discoursing with. Totally ignorant morons tend not to upset me. But when people that are reasonably intelligent buy into things that are patently rediqulous it can.
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US asked our government to send troops to Iraq recently. Yea, right, let's send our boys to die for someone else.
Hristo...familiar with the Brcko district? (Sorry, can't spell it correctly becuase of the US keyboard). My friends and I spent some time there a few years ago and endured mortars, snipers and riots. There's also a bridge there I'm sure you're probably aware of across the river into Croatia. One of our guys was injured just on the Bosnia side of it with a grenade we *think* was thrown out of a passing car (nobody saw it thrown). Was it a Serb? Bosnian? Croat? Other? Who knows..we weren't especially popular with anyone there. The point? We weren't there for ourselves, we were there for "someone else". Pretty healthy Croat population in Brcko last time I was there.
I'm not saying Croatia should send troops to Iraq. The Albanians are already doing a great job representing the former Yugoslavia anyway. I'm saying you should consider your words a little more carefully before you post them. I want to believe that you don't sincerely mean what you said, but I have my doubts. Oh, by the way, do you think it was freedom fighters that were attacking us? I wonder if they were Muslim, Christain, or something else? Just curious.
Got back from Mosul a little over a month ago (12 month tour) and found out today will prolly go back to Iraq soon. I'll tell the freedom fighters you said hi and that they have your support!
:lol
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VOR & ty sir
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hmm, sounds like Hristo has lots in common with Senator Kerry:
In an interview broadcast Wednesday morning, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry defended terrorist Shiite imam Muqtada al-Sadr as a "legitimate voice" in Iraq, despite that fact that he's led an uprising that has killed nearly 20 American GIs in the last two days.
Speaking of al-Sadr's newspaper, which was shut down by coalition forces last week after it urged violence against U.S. troops, Kerry complained to National Public Radio, "They shut a newspaper that belongs to a legitimate voice in Iraq."
In the next breath, however, the White House hopeful caught himself and quickly changed direction. "Well, let me ... change the term 'legitimate.' It belongs to a voice — because he has clearly taken on a far more radical tone in recent days and aligned himself with both Hamas and Hezbollah, which is a sort of terrorist alignment."
But Kerry again seemed to voice sympathy for the Shiite terrorist when asked whether he supported al-Sadr's arrest. "Not if it’s an isolated act without the other kinds of steps necessary to change the dynamics on the ground in Iraq," Kerry told NPR, in quotes first reported by the New York Sun.
"If all we do is make war against the Iraqi people and continue an American occupation, fundamentally, without a clarity as to who and how sovereignty is being turned over, we have a very serious problem for the long run here," Kerry added. "And I think this administration is just walking dead center down into that trap."
On March 28, the U.S.-led coalition authorities closed al-Sadr's newspaper, al-Hawza, for 60 days, the Sun reported. L. Paul Bremer, the chief U.S. administrator in Iraq, charged that the newspaper had published false stories blaming the coalition forces for local acts of terrorism.
Cheer up, maybe we'll be ruled by Euro-crats ourselves after November.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Are they terrorists ? Why ? What defines terrorism ?
Are they antisocial elements just looking for trouble ?
Are they mindless religious fanatics ?
Are they freedom fighters ?
Are they elements of former regime fighting to bring back forgotten Saddam ?
Al Qaida elements ?
Yes, 'they' are terrorists, antisocial elemetns, et al...and by 'they' I mean anyone that isn't 'us'.
We are fighting to protect 'them' and how can we protect 'them' when 'they' keep shooting at 'us'.
This lack of proper noun understanding is what is hindering the progression of Iraq unto democracy. That and stupidily inflamatory and biased threads such as this.
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Originally posted by Hristo
I dislike US policy towards third world, especially when they have natural resources. I dislike Bush and Rumsfeld for being liars with hidden agenda.
Can you please list the third world countries that you are referring to and which ones were involved during G. W. Bush's administration?
It seems to me that you are blaming Bush and Rumsfeld for every "US policy towards [the] third world."
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Originally posted by VOR
Hristo...familiar with the Brcko district? (Sorry, can't spell it correctly becuase of the US keyboard). My friends and I spent some time there a few years ago and endured mortars, snipers and riots. There's also a bridge there I'm sure you're probably aware of across the river into Croatia. One of our guys was injured just on the Bosnia side of it with a grenade we *think* was thrown out of a passing car (nobody saw it thrown). Was it a Serb? Bosnian? Croat? Other? Who knows..we weren't especially popular with anyone there. The point? We weren't there for ourselves, we were there for "someone else". Pretty healthy Croat population in Brcko last time I was there.
I'm not saying Croatia should send troops to Iraq. The Albanians are already doing a great job representing the former Yugoslavia anyway. I'm saying you should consider your words a little more carefully before you post them. I want to believe that you don't sincerely mean what you said, but I have my doubts. Oh, by the way, do you think it was freedom fighters that were attacking us? I wonder if they were Muslim, Christain, or something else? Just curious.
Got back from Mosul a little over a month ago (12 month tour) and found out today will prolly go back to Iraq soon. I'll tell the freedom fighters you said hi and that they have your support!
:lol
Hey VOR If ya go back keep your head down and volunteer for NOTHING LOL.
and Thx.
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Originally posted by VOR
Hristo...familiar with the Brcko district? (Sorry, can't spell it correctly becuase of the US keyboard). My friends and I spent some time there a few years ago and endured mortars, snipers and riots. There's also a bridge there I'm sure you're probably aware of across the river into Croatia. One of our guys was injured just on the Bosnia side of it with a grenade we *think* was thrown out of a passing car (nobody saw it thrown). Was it a Serb? Bosnian? Croat? Other? Who knows..we weren't especially popular with anyone there. The point? We weren't there for ourselves, we were there for "someone else". Pretty healthy Croat population in Brcko last time I was there.
I'm not saying Croatia should send troops to Iraq. The Albanians are already doing a great job representing the former Yugoslavia anyway. I'm saying you should consider your words a little more carefully before you post them. I want to believe that you don't sincerely mean what you said, but I have my doubts. Oh, by the way, do you think it was freedom fighters that were attacking us? I wonder if they were Muslim, Christain, or something else? Just curious.
Got back from Mosul a little over a month ago (12 month tour) and found out today will prolly go back to Iraq soon. I'll tell the freedom fighters you said hi and that they have your support!
:lol
You aren't far away from me, when you are stateside. Next time you get down towards Murfreesboro TN, look me up. I damned sure be proud as hell to buy you a meal and a beer.
Thank you.
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Originally posted by VOR
Hristo...familiar with the Brcko district? (Sorry, can't spell it correctly becuase of the US keyboard). My friends and I spent some time there a few years ago and endured mortars, snipers and riots. There's also a bridge there I'm sure you're probably aware of across the river into Croatia. One of our guys was injured just on the Bosnia side of it with a grenade we *think* was thrown out of a passing car (nobody saw it thrown). Was it a Serb? Bosnian? Croat? Other? Who knows..we weren't especially popular with anyone there. The point? We weren't there for ourselves, we were there for "someone else". Pretty healthy Croat population in Brcko last time I was there.
I'm not saying Croatia should send troops to Iraq. The Albanians are already doing a great job representing the former Yugoslavia anyway. I'm saying you should consider your words a little more carefully before you post them. I want to believe that you don't sincerely mean what you said, but I have my doubts. Oh, by the way, do you think it was freedom fighters that were attacking us? I wonder if they were Muslim, Christain, or something else? Just curious.
Got back from Mosul a little over a month ago (12 month tour) and found out today will prolly go back to Iraq soon. I'll tell the freedom fighters you said hi and that they have your support!
:lol
Yes you were attacked by serb freedom fighters...
Thank you for helping the people of my childhood home. I'm from the former Yugoslavia, a Croatian like Hristo, but of course not like him...
My family moved to the States in 1989 in search of a better life and I love my new home and all the great opportunities it has given me again and again..
Also, a big to you and your family for your service to our country!
God Bless America!
Yes I know that phrase will make some of you sophisticates uncofortable and to want to vomit, if that is the case you may kindly go ahead and %^%&*%$### yourself. :)