Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on March 01, 2000, 03:02:00 PM
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Why are there only late war American aircraft? The other participants didn't just stop developing aircraft because the U.S. got involved. It wasn't "Oh, the United States is now here, well we'd just better cancel our own aircraft development because its useless compared to what the U.S. is doing.".
If the US jockeys get P-51Ds (mid-1944) and F4U Corsairs (1944), why are the British and German jockeys limited to 1942 tech? The Fw-190d-9 (late 1944), Bf-109k-4 (late 1944), Spitfire Mk XIV(mid-1944) and Temest Mk V (1944) should be on the list as well. What are they doing? Spitfire Mk V (1941) and P-38J (1943).
I prefer flying British kites, but with the current selection its kind of silly, the US kites can engage and disengage pretty much at will.
Sisu
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actually its P38L (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) 1944 ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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You tell 'em Karnak
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'cuz the majority of spits in '44 were 9's. The spit went through so many variants, it's to be unbelieved.
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-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/190rebel.gif)
[This message has been edited by Rebel (edited 03-01-2000).]
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The Mk XIV was the dominant "air-to-air" Spitfire from late '44 on. As such, it represents the best choice for a late war Spitfire model.
Sisu
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Lets not forget the German Fw190-A8 (1944) and Bf109-G10, which is actually the same period and very similar in performance to the K4 you mention, which is late 44.
Japanese have got the N1K2, that is late 44 or early 45.
Oh and I wouldnt' mention the F4U-1 series as a late war bird. The -1D is a ground attack version of the -1A model, which was a 1943 varient. And the -1C while it came in 1945, was really just an experiment by the Navy. The true late war F4U corsair was the -4 which we don't have yet either.
If anything the Russian planes are the most limited in their timeframe. Their best is the 1943 La-5.
But I definitely don't think that only the Americans get late war birds.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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AH needs one more Japanese and one more Russian fighter (+ the Typhoon and 202). Then the art department should shutdown awhile to concentrate on other things. No more planes! Got enough for awhile!
Of course this is just my opinion so don't be railin me on it! Well ya can, but I won't give a rat's butt!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS I would like to see a different terrain layout! But regardless I still love it!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
OK Ok OK! A German medium bomber would also be nice! Alright ya talked me into it. A Japanese or Russian bomber would be nice also.
Of course if ya do the Typhoon ya got to do the Tempest. Just natural!
OK! one more. Because if ya got the Tempest ya gota have the FW190D. Just to offset things ya see!
IF AH has the C202 and C205 ya gota put in the Hurri and P40. For desert scenarios! Not complete without desert scenarios!
But that's it! No more planes after that! Then settle down and do airfield vechiles! Jeeps and bowsers and Horse drawn carts!!
Yea! That's it!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) HT! No more worries for you! I got it all figured out. Just let me know and I'll e-mail ya my entire plan!
Cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swagercolour.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-01-2000).]
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That still leaves us Brits flying '42 tech. Not very polite, eh chaps.
Sisu
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GIVE ME MY XIV NOW ....
I want it, need it... 8^)
How abouts the LA-7 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Im sure they are on their way, eh HT?
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_card.jpg)
=1st Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assualt Group=
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 03-01-2000).]
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I think we can wait a while on the spit XIV, got enough dweeb planes already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Definately need: 190A-4/5, P47C/D, A6M2/3/5/8, ki61, ki44,Ki45,ki43, Lancaster(in work) ****F6F-3/5***** F4F, FM2, B-25C/H/J, He-111, Ju-88, Me-110C/G, Ju-87, G4M(?),
A-20, P-40B/E
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Originally posted by coyote:
I think we can wait a while on the spit XIV, got enough dweeb planes already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Definately need: 190A-4/5, P47C/D, A6M2/3/5/8, ki61, ki44,Ki45,ki43, Lancaster(in work) ****F6F-3/5***** F4F, FM2, B-25C/H/J, He-111, Ju-88, Me-110C/G, Ju-87, G4M(?),
A-20, P-40B/E
A nice list, but add some EYE-talian and ROOSH-in planes, too.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Swager -
I know you too well. Everyone else reading your post probably thinks that was an attempt at humor. I know that's how your mind really works.
Sour
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If the Spit XIV is too frightening for everybody else why can't we at least have C versions of the V and IX. 4 20mm would give the spit IX more chance against planes that came out 2 years later than it.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
If the Spit XIV is too frightening for everybody else why can't we at least have C versions of the V and IX. 4 20mm would give the spit IX more chance against planes that came out 2 years later than it.
Nashwan,
You giving up too easily. Just repeat after me, I WANT XIV, I WANT XIV (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Coyote asking for many planes, but too many of them will be good for HA only - I can't see anyone flying Ju87, Me110 (or 410 for that matter) and P40 in regular arena. Wildcats propbably won't be too popular either. Now Spit MkXIV is different (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hmm did I mentioned I also want TA-152 before? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
mx22
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I am not giving up on getting the XIV. It's just that I would like the C versions of all the SPitfires. Acording to a list of preserved Spitfies, nearly half the remaing Spit9s are C versions, and I know that nearly 2500 SpitVc were built, far more than the limited production, never-saw-combat F4U-1C.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
I am not giving up on getting the XIV. It's just that I would like the C versions of all the SPitfires. Acording to a list of preserved Spitfies, nearly half the remaing Spit9s are C versions, and I know that nearly 2500 SpitVc were built, far more than the limited production, never-saw-combat F4U-1C.
I highly doubt we will see C versions for already made Spitfires. At leats not any time soon. Let's just push for the XIV, this way late war F4U-1C will be countered with late was Spit. Sounds fair to me...
mx22
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Pilots who flew the Spitfire XIV called it a "Hairy Beast". Well, the hairy beast is my prefered kite.
coyote, just because there are already "dweeb" planes, does that mean that a bunch of early war planes should be added that no one will fly? If they are moving towards a rotating timescale, with aircraft available being phased in as they encountered eachother, it would seem that they have started with the late war aircraft, so lets finish it and then wrap around to the earlier stuff. It also isn't polite to infer that people are "dweebs" because they are interested in a slightly different time period. If you believe that the late war aircraft were easier to fly, you are mistaken. As an example, the Mk XIV Spitfire was the hardest wartime Spitfire to fly, yes it was the most powerful, but it had to be watched. Thus I prefer it because it is both powerful and challenging.
As to those who think it is fine to handicap the RAF inclined, would you like to be flying P-51As, P-39s and P-40s? Didn't think so. Yet that is the situation we find ourselves in.
Rebel, the most common Mustang was the B, the Lightning was the J or H. They gave the D and L, I don't think us asking for the XIV is out of place.
Sisu
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Naswhan
never-saw-combat F4U-1C
bbbbzzzzztttttt... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Incorrect, but thanks for playing. Cannon armed Corsairs participated in the conquest of Okinawa (well documented) and many of the raids on the Japanese homeland in 1945.
And before you Spit guys complain too much, do you realize that your Spit IX your complaining about is already 15mph-20mph too fast at altitude? And that your critical altitude extends about 5,000ft higher than it should? Just thought you should know.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-02-2000).]
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I stand corrected about the almost-never-saw-combat F4U-1C. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And as for the Spit IX being 10mph too fast, does it go 448mph? Because that is the top speed of the spit we should be using in a 1944 planeset. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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How about a spit 9 LF and HF.
Verm : do these hi-alt peculiarities only effect the spit?
Do i get a prize for putting the word "peculiarities" in my post (even though it is spelt wrong) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
And before you Spit guys complain too much, do you realize that your Spit IX your complaining about is already 15mph-20mph too fast at altitude?
Yea ditto that, I was at 30K in a Mk IX the other day and was doing 250mph IAS! wow that is fast at 30k! sheez
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Since you ask for 1944 planes, I am amazed how you RAF types forgot the 262 ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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jmccaul:
We are suppose to have the F version, but yes it is flying at altitude more like an HF, the fastest of all of the Spit IX's, without going to 150 octane fuel.
As far as I know, its just the Spit thats getting this "peculiarity".
There's a post in the Bug's section I wrote from about a week ago, that gives the exact speeds and altitudes.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-03-2000).]
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Well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif),
How about bringing the D9 to the game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Talking about early planeset, give me my 190-A4 or A5 plzzzzzzzzzzz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maik
<JG2 Richthofen>
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Why always 190D-9.. why not D-12 or D-13 or.. Ta-152? :P
Allies will get their super planes, no doubt about that, but theres some doubt with LW
Also that if some LW plane has few numbers built and superior to others, its not an excuse when looks at C.205 or N1K2 (yea, where they built in thousands? nah..)
Also, fewer people flies LW planes anyway, did they have super plane or not, but allies got always super planes and superb propaganda from the past. (look at all those P-51 weenies crying why they can't outturn certain planes with its famous reputation)
As they get more improved spitfires (spitfire been bouncing up & down, more upwards in performance in AH)
..LW gets planes from the past (look at 109F4...)
So, only formidable LW foe currently is 109s.
190A8 is a coffin, can't engage as freely as some others can. (of course you can say that you can engage, but how about surviving?)
I wish there would be even 190A-5 (they said it to be coming long time ago, where is it?)
At least A-5 would be lighter and faster than A-8, which has guns and armour, which I don't really need as much as maneuverability and speed to survive.
I can do same amount of kills in less time with 109 than in 190.
1. I can engage more freely in 109
2. Maneuverability & accerlation makes up for better shots.
3. You'll survive from hard situations in 109 better than in 190...
If I could have 190A-5..
or fast dora, even D-12.. I would turn back into 190s right away..
(tho, my greatest streak is in 190A-8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) something like +250 kills(?)
But then, some average pilot could do the same in allie plane than I do in LW planes with hard work ... shrug..
(for note, I did over 50 streak with P-38J in WB, twice, when I we're still like below average with skills, but no way I ever did that in 190s or 109s)
So, we need some uber 190 to meet 10 super allie planes..
(Now we can just wait when they get tanks into the game, we'll see 1 sherman beat 10 tigers)
Okey.. enough whining, haven't whined for a month.
still reading? mental health still ok?
good!
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I agree with Fishu
LW fliers badly need some late war planes. FW190D or TA152 would make a nice addition to the current planeset.
But then again, RAF fliers too are not in the perfect position either with their mid-war set. I see people complain about SpitIX being a bit faster at high alt, but most of the engagemets happen well below this alt (at least that's the case with me).
mx22
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Fishu;
You the man! Where you been?
I missed your posting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Fishu, have you ever looked at Fw190D12/D13 performance numbers versus altitude? (FYI for those that don't know the difference between the D12 and D13 is armament)
I am really curious, because while the D12 might have a higher Max speed than the D9 by about 10mph. At most altitudes, especially the altitudes where most of the combat takes place in the arena, the D12 performs much worse than the D9.
The D12 is superior in the 25k-35k area by approximately 10 mph, true, but below 25k the D9 is much faster. In particular, the D9 can do 359mph at Sea Level (if my memory is correct), while the D12 can only do 340 mph at SL, an almost 20mph difference.
Check out the thread where I recently posted scan's of original Focke-Wulf Test data, from a Ta-152 book I recently purchased.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002097.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002097.html)
In particular Document #3 is quite interesting.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing either the 190D9 or the 190D12/D13 in Aces High. But I think I would personally prefer the D9.
And for all those crying for the Ta-152, well.. I would probably have to disagree. Realistically, from looking at this new information (new to me) from the book, very very very few of the Ta-152's made it into combat. I am going to go back and count how many exactly later, but from looking at his documentation, I would say less than 75 made it into service, and less than 50 is probably a more likely number.
And anyways it wouldn't be the panacea most people think. Again look at the performance chart. Just like the 190D12, the 152 variants perform very well in the +25k area, but below that, they do not perform well at all.
Just something to think about.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-03-2000).]
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All for the D9, Ta 152 is just a little too select for my liking. c205 and N1K2 were rare but not because they were very uber and only just managed to get a produced before the end of the war there just weren't many made so i think there is a slight difference.
As far as the Me 262 wouldn't like to see any jets personally (unless they were somehow limited) but if it was included i wouldn't mind the meteor which was operational just a fraction later.
Fact remains brits have 1942 spit IX F and are getting 1941 typhoon Ib. If spit performs wrong at high alt then fix it but you can't say you can't have a late war plane you can have mid war ones that are too quick at alt instead.
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A Competitive mid- or late war Fw yes please!
Jets no please - they'll ruin the arena.
danish
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FYI Fw 190D-9 could do 380 mph at S/L and 440 mph at 19k with MW 50 (RLM figures). If properly modeled it will be quite fast enough!
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I don't think D-12 or D-13 ever made into service in more than Staffel strength. About 1100 D-9 were built and something like 700 of them made it to combat units.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
I am really curious, because while the D12 might have a higher Max speed than the D9 by about 10mph. At most altitudes, especially the altitudes where most of the combat takes place in the arena, the D12 performs much worse than the D9.
Well, I have read about D12/D13 fly as 453mph at 20,600ft.
P-51 flies about 437mph at that altitude.. D-9 bit slower than P-51..
So, what we have here, is more than 10mph with greater armament..
(even 20mph faster)
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This is an interesting discussion. There are always specualtions as to the Fw190D9 and the Ta152. I found this links posted in another BBS (maybe here). It is a few stories from Allied pilots (and 1 LW pilot) and their encounters with these 2 aircraft. While purely anecdotal, it gives us an interesting look at these aircraft.
Please chck it out and enjoy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/stories.htm (http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/stories.htm)
Mutt
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Well, Fishu all I can say is that the documents I presented on the 190D12/D13 are about as good as they get.
It seems that there is always alot of confusion about German aircraft, and how they were tested by the Allies and the possible bias involved, including the arguement of test pilots totally unfamiliar with the aircraft.
But in this case its actual Focke-Wulf factory testing, their own pilots, signed and dated, and I believe even still marked with the equivalent of "TOP SECRET". And these test flights were specifically for their own internal testing and developement purposes, not external distribution, so why would they not be as factual as possible.
The Test from 30 March 1944 gives its maximum speed at 695 km/hr (432 mph) at 10.5km (34,450ft). At 6km (approx 20,000ft), its max speed was 660 km/hr (410mph).
I don't know where the 453 mph at 20,000ft number came from, but unless some supporting test flight documents are available, I am skeptical of that number.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-04-2000).]
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The Fw 190D-12 (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190d.html#RTFToC2) was a fighter-bomber variant, which differed from the D-9 by having a three-stage supercharged Jumo 213F-1 engine rated at 2060 hp for takeoff mounted in a new, more extensively armored cowling. Armanent was one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon and two 20-mm MG 151s in the wing roots. Although primarily a ground-attack plane, the D-12 also made an effective fighter and could attain 453 mph at 37,000 feet when MW 50 boost was used. Production began in March 1945 at the Arado and Fieseler plants, but only a few were delivered.
The D-13 differed from the D-12 by having a Jumo 213EB engine and by having a 20-mm engine-mounted MG 151 cannon in place of the 30-mm MK 108 unit. However, only a couple of prototypes were built.
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Thx Mutt ;=)
Good reading!
Im a great belever in anecdotes.After all they tell us what really happend (cept most of the times oh so open for interpretation), while the sims try to mimic those anecdotes with numbers.
And lets face it: do you now of a sim that has hit the right numbers all out yet?Just to hit the relative strenght\weaknesses can be a problem.
A competitive mid- late war Fw yes please.
danish
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And a competitive, late war Spitfire as well.
Kiitos
Sisu
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Well, give them their Spit XIV. So what if it is fast and outclimbs even a late war 109 ? I am sure it also has its drawbacks.
Arena is no HTH and these advantages do not necessarily translate into an Uberplane. Also, the Spit XIV has the prop spinning in opposite direction and a nasty torque, not to be disregarded when flying it. It would not turn so wonderfully as Spit V too. It will probably still be easier to fly than our G-10, but historically it should be here. In WB, for example, 109K-4 could actually outmaneuver Spit XIV (not in sustained manuvers though).
However, do not stop at Spit XIV. Other countries had excellent planes as well. Luftwaffe had 190D-9 and Me 262 in numbers, and many excellent planes in fewer numbers (Ta 152, Me 163, He 162), or in various stages of development (Do 335).
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-05-2000).]
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FW 190 D9, spit 14 etc. saw combat in reasonable numbers and had an effect on the war. It is probably reasonable to say that these planes would be better than the ones currently in AH in terms of pure performance but is there a rule if it's better than the 51 D it's uber and shouldn't be allowed?
Would they be Uber - no. 2000 ft of extra alt, 20% less fuel, better pilot etc would probably negate whatever climb rate, speed etc advantage they would have over current planes.
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Hristo,
I agree that the Fw-190D-9 should be in the game, the others that you that you mention though, Ta 152, Me 163, He 162, Do 335 and Me 262, should NOT be included. In all cases, they are either Jets or were not used in numbers. Many of them would be like asking for the P-80, Gloster Meteor or Spitfire Mk F.21. All of these COULD have seen limited combat, but they didn't. About 700 Fw-190D-9s and 900 Spitfire Mk XIVs DID see combat in the final year of the war.
Sisu
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Now Karnak, that is rude (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I agree with your Spit XIV and you deny me my 262 ? Saying "it is a jet, it should not be modeled". I guess Brits also complained about the same thing when 262 was introduced in 1944.
262 was built and served in numbers. From mid-1944. It was a high priority plane. It fought, it shot down planes, it was shot down too. Accept it, as well as we have to accept Spitfire XIV. Otherwise you sound like you just want a crutch for yourself. To me, Spitfire XIV and Me 262 fall into same category (Spit came few months earlier, 262 was built in greater numbers).
In fact, 262 appeared before D-9, was produced in greater numbers, and was considered the most important plane for the future by RLM. And your argument is "it is a jet". LOL.
P-80 or Gloster Meteor fall in Do 335 and He 162 category (never documented to have seen combat).
Even Ta 152 has higher priority, it actually fought.
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-06-2000).]
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The Me262(if the engines were properly modelled) would be fine for use with historical limits in a historical setup - but with unlimited availability in the "Main Arena" it would screw things up bigtime, especially for bomber pilots.
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So again we agree, we need Historical Arena, pronto (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes, unreliable engines and discriminating fuel multiplier would surely hinder 262.
But then again, there are other planes which historically had unreliable engines, jamming guns, no ammo counters etc. Are they unproperly modeled ?
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-06-2000).]
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Hristo I agree with you on many things, I disagree In a few points (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yes, Give them their Spit XIV...but AFTER we LW get Fw190A-5 and Fw190D-9. And a 109K-4 wont be so bad too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif).
Really, LW NEEDS some COMPETITIVE Fw190. The current one is a buff killer that cant kill buffs because the 1.8K buff-uber-fire. I want a fighter and A-5 was great!!!. and also we need a plane to catch those runnin runstangs, so WE NEED fw190D-9. After that, yep, get your XIV.
I agree too with Me262. It isnt a uberplane, its only a Speedy buff killer. Try to turn in that thing and you are ded. Try to slow down a little and you are ded. Try to kill anything but a buff and you cant (those Mk108... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). I would suggest to model it with all its faults. Make the engines SLOOOOOW to accelerate thrust. Make the plane the E-Bleeder it was turning...and Make an arena with 4 types of fields: Little, medium, Large, and Very Large. Each plane needs a kind of base, and whe Me262 would be restricted to the Very Large. (as in fact it was in WWII). In hands of a Experten like Hristo, it would be pure death. In my hands, for instance I would be a pure dead. This plane was possibly the hardest to fly well in WWII. Make it just as difficult as it was. Not an uberplane...an EXPERTEN plane. Its fair to include it.
Said this I'll also say that the 262 isn't a priority. Jap and Russian fans are disgusted (right to be) cuz they only have one plane each. See I dont like Jap planes, nor russian ones. but It is UNFAIR for them to have only one plane each. So there are priorities and this is a BIG one.
Hristo, I cant agree with you in He162, Do335...even When I'd love to have a Go229 again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Lets make this realistic, so we have REAL fighting planes of WWII not what-if planes.
And to those that says the Ta-152 was only a hi alt fighter...the Ta152 met in low alt furballs against Tempests V in last days of the war. They KICKED the tempest's asses. I there was only one ta152 Jagdgeschwader operational in last days of WWII (i cant recall exactly wich one). and there was one German Ta152 Ace. (dont remember his name but was one of the Tempest's bellybutton kickers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
There are a bunch of planes to be modelled before Me262 and Ta152. We need russian (Yaks and Las), Japanese (zeros, Ki84, Ki61...) GERMANS!!!!!! (FW190A-5, D-9, Me109K-4)...right now there is an unbalanced situation. too many Brits and Americans for so few LW and Italian modelled Aircraft...
just my 0.02$
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-06-2000).]
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This one I find funny (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And to those that says the Ta-152 was only a hi alt fighter...the Ta152 met in low alt furballs against Tempests V in last days of the war. They KICKED the tempest's asses.
And the Tempest V was a low alt furballer itself?? Come on RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thats like saying that because a 400 lb man could outrun a 500 lb man in a 50 yard dash that he is a olympic class sprinter. Yeah right (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Numbers are numbers, you can't change the facts with anecdotal data. Down low the Ta-152 is a poor performer with a high wingloading. Period.
I will get you the Ta152 Ace when I get home tonight. I believe the squadron was JG301, but I am going from memory.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/pics/yak3.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-06-2000).]
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Hristo,
I did not mean to be rude. I don't think that jets should be added, not that the 262 didn't have a real participation in the war, it clearly did (on a different note, a Spitfire XIV was the first aircraft to shoot a 262 down on 10-5-44).
The Gloster Meteor entered service 2 weeks before the 262 did, it saw extensive use against V1s and was stationed on the continent in March '45 to counter the 262. The 2 fighters never met, so the first jet-to-jet combat had to wait till Korea. It obviously did not have as much an effect on the war as the 262 had.
I'd object less to the 262 than I would to the others, I just don't think that adding jets would be a good thing. Give us our Spitfire XIVs, Fockewulf 190D-9s and Messerschmitt Bf109K-4s and I think that would be enough.
Sisu
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Note that smilie in my post, Karnak, I did not mean it serious.
However, I stand by 262 and its right to get introduced in the arena. The plane might be easy to live in, but kills do not come easy. It is probably the easiest plane to dodge.
As for shooting first 262, I think it was B-17.
Meteor entering service before 262 ? I seriously doubt that. Anyone got that documented ? How about Meteor's combat record ? Did it should anything except a V-1 ?
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-06-2000).]