Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 09, 2004, 09:49:18 AM
-
Combined with the Japanese people in captivity, who are these people? Hostages or Prisoners of War?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63744-2004Apr9.html
Apr 9, 10:08 AM (ET)
ABU GHRAIB, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraqi insurgents said they had seized four Italians and two Americans on the western outskirts of Baghdad on Friday.
A Reuters journalist saw two captive foreigners, said by the insurgents to be Italians, in a mosque in a village in the Abu Ghraib district. One was wounded in the shoulder. Both were weeping.
U.S. soldiers in a tank in the area near the village of al-Dhahab al-Abyad said they knew some Americans had been taken hostage, but had no details.
"That's why we are sealing off the road," said one soldier.
Insurgents told Reuters they had captured four Italians traveling in a four-wheel-drive vehicle with weapons in it. They said they had seized the Americans in a separate attack.
They took the journalist to a mosque, surrounded by about 40 fighters with rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles, where they said all the hostages had been taken.
The two foreigners could be seen from a distance, but the fighters did not allow them to be filmed.
-
Hostages.
If they had been captured doing something military related, they would be POWs.
-
"freedom fighters" promise to burn them alive
time for the bulldozers
-
If there was a war, they would be POW's.
There isn't a war going on, just a local insurgency. Bush said so.
-
I think everyone understands the Israelis better now.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Combined with the Japanese people in captivity, who are these people? Hostages or Prisoners of War?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63744-2004Apr9.html
Your point is?
-
Hostages.
If they had been captured doing something military related, they would be POWs.
Just making sure you see this Gofaster.
Any reporters taken are hostages. But say that one reporter tries to help pull a wounded soldier out of the fire then is captured. He's now a POW.
-
Their intention is probably to use them as hostages.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Their intention is probably to use them as hostages.
For a negotiation to what?
-
Any reporters taken are hostages. But say that one reporter tries to help pull a wounded soldier out of the fire then is captured. He's now a POW.
They're hostages. Doesn't matter if they were doing something military-related or not. They could be soldiers and it still wouldn't matter. A reporter pulling a soldier out of a fire fight doesn't matter. There's no declaration of war, therefore, they can't be POW's. They are hostages being held by criminals. Nothing more.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
For a negotiation to what?
You know... 'ameerkans, leave iraq', 'islamic US'... etc.
These hostages are dead unless rescued.
-
Are not alot of them humanitarian workers? That's what I thought I read anyway.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
"freedom fighters" promise to burn them alive
time for the bulldozers
If they burn them alive, probably Japanese seek revenge on those "Freedom Fighter" and cut their head off(Wonder if they do that today?).
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Hostages. The civilians are hostages by definition, and the military personnel are also hostages because their lives are being held ransom.
If they were captured with weapons - they are POW's. Anybody in the battle with weapon is a combatant. If he captured - he became a POW. Hostages are only civilian.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Estel, you misunderstand. The military personnel should be treated as POWs, but they are not. They are being held hostage by the terrorists.
Sorry. But looks like you misunderstood. There is no terrorists. There are people who defend their country from straight aggression. Maybe your opinion is another, but this is how that people do understand the situation. And they captured some personell. That personell is now POW. What a problem? You want to think that there is no war but only counter-terrorist operation? It's your right. But you must understand, that there is another one opininon onto what there is happening. And it's very different from yours. It's just a fact. The opinion of Iraqis - army personnel captured - they are POW's. They really think that there is a war. And there there is a war. Really.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
I think everyone understands the Israelis better now.
I think we understand Saddam Hussein better now.
Without the threat of chemical weapons (whether he had them or not) there was no way to keep these knuckleheads in line.
No wonder he was stalling.
-
Yes, we all know that journalists and aid workers are a threat to the Iraqi people. Death to imperialist aid workers!
-
Estel,
By all definitions, they're being held as hostages.
They're not prisoners by any definition under the circumstances they're held in at.
Poor thing for them, since they're not going to survive without being rescued.
POWs would have a hope of surviving.. but intentions of the captors is to simply kill them if their demands are not met.. and those will not be met.
-
Those who are willing to die and kill will control Iraq.
The majority of the population wants peace and democracy. The knuckleheads, backed by Saudi funds, are trying to throw dingleberries in the democracy punchbowl.
They are well funded and well equipped, just like the knuckleheads in Afghanistan. Afghans knuckleheads are excellent fighters, and are clearly teaching their Iraqi counterparts.
It's up to the Iraqi people to fight for what they think is right. Most of the sensible ones, after 35 years of horrors, have learned it's best to keep a low profile, unfortunately.
If non-Muslims "invaders" do the fighting and killing, they only create more enemies.
It's clearly a very difficult situation, and one which is playing right into radical Islam's game plan.
This "politically incorrect" quotation from offical the British history of The War in Mesopotamia rings so true:
"The Arab is generally intelligent, quick and impressionable. But he is slovenly and uncreative in practical matters, and is lacking in the power of co-operation...He has a natural bent for intrigue...the Arab is used to continual warfare of the guerilla type."
I'm starting to think it's time to cut our losses, but that will never happen in an election year.
-
Hostages. And actually the wrong ones, as some are volunteers and humanitarian activists.
But if Japan pulls out, it would be two good things - less occupators and alive hostages. Sadly it won't happen.
Why didn't they get Bremer instead ?
-
Originally posted by Estel
Sorry. But looks like you misunderstood. There is no terrorists. There are people who defend their country from straight aggression. Maybe your opinion is another, but this is how that people do understand the situation. And they captured some personell. That personell is now POW. What a problem? You want to think that there is no war but only counter-terrorist operation? It's your right. But you must understand, that there is another one opininon onto what there is happening. And it's very different from yours. It's just a fact. The opinion of Iraqis - army personnel captured - they are POW's. They really think that there is a war. And there there is a war. Really.
Maybe you misunderstand english?
A prisoner is usually held without demand for material/political gain.
A hostage is held for material/political gain.
They are terrorists too. Defending your country does not take a course of action which includes the kidnapping of unarmed aid workers who are trying to help your people.
You sound like another left liberal raghead lover, alls well until they blow the brains out of one of your relatives.
-
Originally posted by Hristo
Hostages. And actually the wrong ones, as some are volunteers and humanitarian activists.
But if Japan pulls out, it would be two good things - less occupators and alive hostages. Sadly it won't happen.
Why didn't they get Bremer instead ?
What? If Japan pulled out, it would increase the danger to all the world's civilians. It would signal that hostage taking is effective and that it pays off.
The sad part is that these 3 people will probably die but Japan has no choice...they cannot give in to terrorists, just as nobody should.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Hostages.
This is first time in my life, that i see, that Occupation soldiers are hostages at Occupied territory.
Every war proved that good occupant is dead occupant.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
What? If Japan pulled out, it would increase the danger to all the world's civilians. It would signal that hostage taking is effective and that it pays off.
The sad part is that these 3 people will probably die but Japan has no choice...they cannot give in to terrorists, just as nobody should.
it only prove that Japanese military and administration is useless and they have no clue how to deal with terrorist and security
-
Edit:.Hardly worth argueing with the insane.
-
Originally posted by maslo
This is first time in my life, that i see, that Occupation soldiers are hostages at Occupied territory.
Every war proved that good occupant is dead occupant.
NOT true Maslo!
Look at how Germany and Japan prospered under US/ European administration!
I think your quote should have been:
This is the first time in my life I have seen an occupation, and I'm banking it's going to go wrong for the civilians and the military who are in that country. To prove myself right on a BBS which means nothing.
oh, Maslo.
don't be such a pessimist!
Ravs
[edit] Rip...agree entirely.
-
Originally posted by maslo
it only prove that Japanese military and administration is useless and they have no clue how to deal with terrorist and security
unlike your country.
hey, b.t.w., what country are you from?
-
Italy, I think.
but please don't think all Italians are have his point of view.
Ravs
-
They may be about to become martyrs. Muslims don't have a corner on that market.
-
hahahahhahahahahahahahah
EAGLER!!!
Bring Out the Bulldozers..
lmfao..forgot about that1..
thank u..lolololol
BiGB
xoxo
-
As the whole war is unleagal as well as the occupation, I do not see any problems in killing scumbags from either ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc.
No matter if they would be civilians. They do not have any buisness in Iraq, what so ever.
Have it accured to you that the war might never really ended just because Bush said it was over?
Bring Bush and Blair to Haag for the warcrimes they have commited.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
As the whole war is unleagal as well as the occupation, I do not see any problems in killing scumbags from either ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc.
No matter if they would be civilians. They do not have any buisness in Iraq, what so ever.
Have it accured to you that the war might never really ended just because Bush said it was over?
Bring Bush and Blair to Haag for the warcrimes they have commited.
Let me be the first to say goodbye and good riddance to you.
What you said is unbelievable. You don't care about human life, you are the scumbag.
-
Originally posted by maslo
This is first time in my life, that i see, that Occupation soldiers are hostages at Occupied territory.
Every war proved that good occupant is dead occupant.
Like WWII, the allies occupied Germany, Italy and Japan. I guess things turned pretty out well for those countries.
You really don't make any good points that I have seen and you never follow up on any points you think you made. You say dumb things then disappear..... and after reading what you have posted recently, you will probably disappear for good.
You are Italian right? THE IRONY!
-
Originally posted by NUKE
What you said is unbelievable. You don't care about human life, you are the scumbag.
War is war, my dear Nuke. You can not blame people for fighting a occupating force.
My great onkel Blow up train tracks in Southern Norway, during the German occupation, he was delivered a medal for this after the war. What is the differance between him and theese guys?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
War is war, my dear Nuke. You can not blame people for fighting a occupating force.
you are gone when Skuzzy wakes up today, I'm sure.
See ya!
-
Originally posted by Hristo
Hostages. And actually the wrong ones, as some are volunteers and humanitarian activists.
But if Japan pulls out, it would be two good things - less occupators and alive hostages. Sadly it won't happen.
Why didn't they get Bremer instead ?
I thought your freedom fighter friends only targeted military personell...
:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by crabofix
War is war, my dear Nuke. You can not blame people for fighting a occupating force.
My great onkel Blow up train tracks in Southern Norway, during the German occupation, he was delivered a medal for this after the war. What is the differance between him and theese guys?
Well for one the USA doesnt have aims t take over the whole world, and oh the whole Nazi subhuman extermination race dominance stuff.... And of course the Germans didnt come into to norway to overthrow a brutal dangerous dictator...
But then of course Bush is Hitler and all that...
-
Originally posted by NUKE
you are gone when Skuzzy wakes up today, I'm sure.
See ya!
SO you think that this threat would prevent me from saying what I think? I know that Skuzzy might not like what I am posting, but it does not make it less true.
Dear Nuke, I do not worry about this: Being banned from a BBS. Even if you might think that it might be a horrible thing.
There are far more important things in life to worry about.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well for one the USA doesnt have aims t take over the whole world, and oh the whole Nazi subhuman extermination race dominance stuff.... And of course the Germans didnt come into to norway to overthrow a brutal dangerous dictator...
But then of course Bush is Hitler and all that...
Who and what, does not matter. Anyone who retaliate civilians, making them suffer for resistance against an occupation is no better then Hitler.
"bring out the bulldozers" is a warcrime. Wether you like it or not.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
SO you think that this threat would prevent me from saying what I think? I know that Skuzzy might not like what I am posting, but it does not make it less true.
Dear Nuke, I do not worry about this: Being banned from a BBS. Even if you might think that it might be a horrible thing.
There are far more important things in life to worry about.
I could care less what you think. People like you are true evil, not caring about human life.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
I could care less what you think. People like you are true evil, not caring about human life.
What about the poor Iraq children who gets killed "by accident" Are they not Human? Who is killing them?
US soldiers fighting to protect them self or the Iraq freedom fighters, trying to force the Coalition to leave their country?
I care about human lives, no matter if they are US lifes, or Iraqian lives. But I do not care much about criminals getting killed while commiting their crimes.
According to all international laws, the Coalitons war and occupation of Iraq is unlawful and a crime.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
I care about human lives, no matter if they are US lifes, or Iraqian lives. But I do not care much about criminals getting killed while commiting their crimes.
You said you don't have a problem with the killing of civilians from "ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc. "
So you care about human lives in what way?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Who and what, does not matter. Anyone who retaliate civilians, making them suffer for resistance against an occupation is no better then Hitler.
"bring out the bulldozers" is a warcrime. Wether you like it or not.
Oh yes were just leveling whole towns...
Tell me for a second carbofix, why did the evil USA nazi army stop their anti-terrorist offensive in fallujah to let in iraqi aid convoys?
How does that fit into your sorry hateful world view?
-
Grun, this complete moron with a chip on his shoulder is going to be gone soon, let's play him for the few hours he has left here.
The lower the IQ the more hate it seems.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
You said you don't have a problem with the killing of civilians from "ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc. "
So you care about human lives in what way?
Oh he has no problem when terrorists kill people. They arew all freedom fighters!!! Heck he was prolly cheering the freedom fighters on 911... Reember they were only asking that the evil US military pulll out of their region of the world. You see, 911 was done by freedom fighters...
Then of course theres the taliban freedom fighters, who only kill so evil USA invaders leave their innocent homeland...
Lets sing joyfully in praise of freedom fighters all over the world!!!
But the second the USA kills anyone it's immediately a warcrime on level of nazis...
-
Originally posted by NUKE
You said you don't have a problem with the killing of civilians from "ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc. "
So you care about human lives in what way?
As all these countries are part of the occupationforce, they may all be targeted and killed on sight. No matter if they are "only" try to "steal" oil in civilian clothes.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
War is war, my dear Nuke. You can not blame people for fighting a occupating force.
My great onkel Blow up train tracks in Southern Norway, during the German occupation, he was delivered a medal for this after the war. What is the differance between him and theese guys?
Your uncle capture German civilians and promise to burn them
alive unless Germany left Norway? What a guy!
-
Originally posted by crabofix
As all these countries are part of the occupationforce, they may all be targeted and killed on sight. No matter if they are "only" try to "steal" oil in civilian clothes.
OMG how are japanse civilan aid workers and there to steal oil? Do they stick medical syringes into the ground and do it that way?
Shot on sight? Ah? So if they are there, lets say giving medice to an Iraqi child - the first thing you would do if you were the kids fayher would be to shoot the aid workers?
You are one sick evil terrorist puppy...
Why not join the cause and shoot some random civialns from those countries if you come aross them...
-
Originally posted by crabofix
As all these countries are part of the occupationforce, they may all be targeted and killed on sight. No matter if they are "only" try to "steal" oil in civilian clothes.
Hitler didn't invade Sweden, I guess he figured he didn't have to with people like you there already.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh he has no problem when terrorists kill people. They arew all freedom fighters!!! Heck he was prolly cheering the freedom fighters on 911... Reember they were only asking that the evil US military pulll out of their region of the world. You see, 911 was done by freedom fighters...
Then of course theres the taliban freedom fighters, who only kill so evil USA invaders leave their innocent homeland...
Lets sing joyfully in praise of freedom fighters all over the world!!!
But the second the USA kills anyone it's immediately a warcrime on level of nazis...
Yes, thats your way of trying to devert the discussing by twisting my words to being a supporter of terrorists in general.
I do not see how Iraq militants could have had anything to do with 9/11.
I support their rights to fight an unlegal invasion, I do not support terrorist attacks against civilians.
A country that are in war may have to count on that the enemy might choose other methods then the conventional ones to fight an occupation, though.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Yes, thats your way of trying to devert the discussing by twisting my words to being a supporter of terrorists in general.
I do not see how Iraq militants could have had anything to do with 9/11.
I support their rights to fight an unlegal invasion, I do not support terrorist attacks against civilians.
A country that are in war may have to count on that the enemy might choose other methods then the conventional ones to fight an occupation, though.
What has Sweden ever stood for? Itself maybe?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Hitler didn't invade Sweden, I guess he figured he didn't have to with people like you there already.
nope
-
Originally posted by crabofix
I support their rights to fight an unlegal invasion, I do not support terrorist attacks against civilians.
A country that are in war may have to count on that the enemy might choose other methods then the conventional ones to fight an occupation, though.
So you do condone terror attcaks against civilans...
All Al Qeada ever really asked for was for USA army to stop occupying the middle east and islamic world.
So by yiour definition the 911 attacks were justified because they were part of that goal...
You support 911, it's really quite that simple and it's shameful to watch you try to squirm out of it..
Surely all the cworld's great freedom fighters, like you, took a moment out of their buzy schedules of setting japanese civialn aid workers on fire or shooting others on sight, and celebrated the great blow to the great opressor satan Amreeka!!!
Tell us how high did you jump up and how many DETH TO AMREEKA chants did you wail out on 911?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
nope
what a rubuttal! I can hardly await the utterernce of your next syllable.
-
it's 8.00 am in Skuzzyland...tick tok, tick tok
-
What do you sugest that desperate people would do?. Form a demonstration and get shoot at?
How to form a opposition against something like an unleagal invasion? A whole country being raped and nobody doing nothing?
Desperate men seek desperate sollutions.
-
...tic tok, tick tok
-
Originally posted by NUKE
it's 8.00 am in Skuzzyland...tick tok, tick tok
Hey Nuke, why dont you just send him a mail?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
What do you sugest that desperate people would do?. Form a demonstration and get shoot at?
How to form a opposition against something like an unleagal invasion? A whole country being raped and nobody doing nothing?
Desperate men seek desperate sollutions.
tell me, in the history of invasions which one was legal and what made it "legal"
-
Originally posted by crabofix
What do you sugest that desperate people would do?. Form a demonstration and get shoot at?
How to form a opposition against something like an unleagal invasion? A whole country being raped and nobody doing nothing?
Desperate men seek desperate sollutions.
Ok thats more reasonable allready, you wanna really discuss?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
How to form a opposition against something like an unleagal invasion? A whole country being raped and nobody doing nothing?
Desperate men seek desperate sollutions.
Kind of like Sweden did nothing when Europe was being raped by Germany?
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ok thats more reasonable allready, you wanna really discuss?
We both know that we could never agree on anything when it comes to theese issues, Grun, so why discuss it?
I am telling you what I think, I am not trying to change your world.
You are entiteled to agree or disagree, I will not get angry
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Kind of like Sweden did nothing when Europe was being raped by Germany?
Look who is throwing stones in the glasshouse.
Yes, sure, Sweden was very able to fight the Germans. Especially as the Russians kinda was lurking from the east. While the great country in the West cheered.
-
Well I dont think the US is or was raping Iraq. The US does not do that stuff.
These insurgents are not resaponding to any sort of US injustice.
Quite simply I feel they, the ex-Baathists and the al-Sadr army are trying to assure their own political power in the post US government period. They are trying to do that by military means becausae they know that there is 0% chance of them gaining power in any free electionn.
The bathists wont win because they are linked to saddam and are Sunnis.
The Sadr army folks, while shiites, wont win because Muqtada Al-sadr is not even a slightly legitimate leader to the vast majority of Shiites.
So thats why they have been acting up, trying to impose their own power.
Now, here's the big leap I ask of you. Consider this, are you supporting these insurgents because you belive that they have the best intrests of the Iraqi people at heart as opposed to the coalition powers?
Take a look at this info:
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1463441
This post war written by dead man flying in another similar thread, it deal with some of the same issues. And dmf is far from a pro bush right winger...
'The groups who fight against America hinder progress toward democracy because they stand to lose the most under a democratic system. As minorities, the Sunnis by definition face a future guaranteeing their political marginalization. As such, they fight to preserve their power base and undermine any move toward representative government.
Al-Sadr likewise faces political obscurity if things progress as planned; he represents a small fraction of Shiites in Iraq. In an NPR piece on him about four months back, they noted that he used thugs to intimidate and chase off civilian contractors who attempted to renovate or otherwise improve the slums where most of his followers lived. When the slum dwellers wondered why they did not see any of the lifestyle improvements promised to them by the Americans, Al-Sadr called Americans liars and thieves and fanned the flames of anti-Americanism when he himself was to blame for their persistent lack of improvement.
(I believe this links to the story)
These are not freedom fighters, at least not in any modern sense of the word. They fight for political power in a land where Hussein's defeat left a massive power vacuum. Don't pretend that they represent the Iraqi people generally or that they hold their best interests at heart. They don't seek to overthrow oppressors so much as they seek, themselves, to oppress. Do you honestly believe that whatever "freedom" they offer to the Iraqi people represents what most Iraqis desire?"
-- Todd/Leviathn
So if you really care about Iraqi wellbeing, what do you think of the insurgents motives with this new info now? Perhaps you wont agree with me, but what about him?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Look who is throwing stones in the glasshouse.
Yes, sure, Sweden was very able to fight the Germans. Especially as the Russians kinda was lurking from the east. While the great country in the West cheered.
better to sit in judment, hands to your crotch, and whining like a girl.
-
So hes saying that sweden didnt fight the germans because the russians would then invade?
LOL
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Now, here's the big leap I ask of you. Consider this, are you supporting these insurgents because you belive that they have the best intrests of the Iraqi people at heart as opposed to the coalition powers?
I support theese guys, because they are fighting an unlegal occupying force. The Cause is lost and the US will leave with their tails between their legs, creating a far more horrible place then the originaly invaded: An Islamic republic.
I do not concider this good. I do not consider the regime of Saddam good. But the invasion of Iraq was not a very good move at the point it was commited.
Mr Bush was and is still way out of line.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
better to sit in judment, hands to your crotch, and whining like a girl.
Yes, at that very specific moment, that was the only thing possible.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
I support theese guys, because they are fighting an unlegal occupying force. The Cause is lost and the US will leave with their tails between their legs, creating a far more horrible place then the originaly invaded: An Islamic republic.
I do not concider this good. I do not consider the regime of Saddam good. But the invasion of Iraq was not a very good move at the point it was commited.
Mr Bush was and is still way out of line.
So your hatred of the USA and bush exceeds your care for the outcome to the Iraqi people?
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So your hatred of the USA and bush exceeds your care for the outcome to the Iraqi people?
The outcome is obviuse. A failure from start. You can name it Vietnam, Somalia or Iraq. It is just a matter of time.
As it started out wrong it will end wrong.
-
You want it to fail. You need it to fail, beacuse it will make you feel better about your prejudices against America.
And you dont give one damn about the Iraqi people, you just want the terrorists and lunatics to take over because it will reinforce your hatred of America..
So I wanna tell you something...
You use the worrd "unjust" to describe this inavsion. Well, you should stop using it because you dony have one ounce of sensse of justice in you. You are obviously so full opf hatred aginst the USA that you want the worst possible posiibnle outcome for 23 million people jsut because it would justify your prejudices. Thts the only justice you know...
-
Originally posted by crabofix
The outcome is obviuse. A failure from start. You can name it Vietnam, Somalia or Iraq. It is just a matter of time.
As it started out wrong it will end wrong.
Did Vietnam and Somalia end wrong in your opinion? Im interested to know, because the US tried to stop communism in Vietnam ( or maybe we wanted the oil)
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You use the worrd "unjust" to describe this inavsion. Well, you should stop using it because you dony have one ounce of sensse of justice in you. You are obviously so full opf hatred aginst the USA that you want the worst possible posiibnle outcome for 23 million people jsut because it would justify your prejudices. Thts the only justice you know...
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want
to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his
farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia,
nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all,
it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple
matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always
be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell
them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
- Hermann Goering, April 18, 1946, while awaiting the Nuremberg trials.
You are wrong, Grun. I do not hate USA or the people of USA.
What I hate is the ignorance of that country.
How they send out their poor members of society to die for something as useless as money.
Grun, In about 60 years, we´ll all be dead and forgotten. I will be as poor as I was when I was born, so will probebly you be.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want
to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his
farm in one piece?
you are such an idiot. A lot of "poor slobs" on a farm willingly went to war for our country in defense of freedom and humanity....something a complete moron like yourself will never understand.
-
But in the meantime you wanna ensure that the Iraqi people get the worst possible outcome..
Maybe you dont hate the usa, maybe... But why then do you hate the Iraqi's so much?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Did Vietnam and Somalia end wrong in your opinion? Im interested to know, because the US tried to stop communism in Vietnam ( or maybe we wanted the oil)
As it started out wrong, it ended wrong. If they do not want you there, they will sooner or later force you to leave, against your will. I say, better this happens sooner then later, to cause minimal damage to all parts.
I guess you rater see a long war, as in Vietnam, then a quick withdrawl as in Somalia?
If you are not a welcomed guest, you better leave , before they make you run.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
As it started out wrong, it ended wrong. If they do not want you there, they will sooner or later force you to leave, against your will. I say, better this happens sooner then later, to cause minimal damage to all parts.
I guess you rater see a long war, as in Vietnam, then a quick withdrawl as in Somalia?
If you are not a welcomed guest, you better leave , before they make you run.
Grun is obviously right, you despise America, why deny it? Your denial kills your credibility.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But in the meantime you wanna ensure that the Iraqi people get the worst possible outcome..
Maybe you dont hate the usa, maybe... But why then do you hate the Iraqi's so much?
What is the worse outcome?
To let the Iraq people take care of their own buisness or to have them guided by another country, whos only goal is to secure the oil?
To let the country be cut to pieces by fights for years?
Leave while you still have time to do so.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Grun is obviously right, you despise America, why deny it? Your denial kills your credibility.
Despise, is a better word then hate, I can agree with that.
I despise USA, yes
-
Originally posted by crabofix
What is the worse outcome?
To let the Iraq people take care of their own buisness or to have them guided by another country, whos only goal is to secure the oil?
To let the country be cut to pieces by fights for years?
Leave while you still have time to do so.
Yiu really think the al-sadr lunatic militia or the Saddam baathists would just be nice to the vast avst majorirty of Iraqis that do do not support them?
Think about it, what are these guys most afraid of? They are afraid of the upcoming Iraqi elections. They have no chance whatsover of gaining power in them - thats why they are fighting.
Because when the election comes and Iraqis elect more legitimate iraqi leaders to govern the country these guys have no angle and no power.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Despise, is a better word then hate, I can agree with that.
I despise USA, yes
And you are happy to let civilians die and let communism take over Vietnam because that's the "will of the people"..... but you discount the will of the people fighting for freedom out of hand.
You are a moron.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Despise, is a better word then hate, I can agree with that.
I despise USA, yes
Yep he hates the USA. At least he admits it, it's a good start.
The next step is to admit his support for 911.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
To let the Iraq people take care of their own buisness or to have them guided by another country, whos only goal is to secure the oil?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040315/D81AILK00.html
:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yep he hates the USA. At least he admits it, it's a good start.
The next step is to admit his support for 911.
I despise the US too! What other country on earth is more evil than the US?
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040315/D81AILK00.html
:rolleyes:
Ripsnort: NO
Crabofix: YES
Ripsnort: NO
Crabofix: YES
Ripsnort: NO
Crabofix: YES
Ripsnort: NO
Crabofix: YES
This can go on for ever Rip. I will not change your mind, you will not change mine. It is just a waste of time, right?
-
Originally posted by crabofix
As the whole war is unleagal as well as the occupation, I do not see any problems in killing scumbags from either ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc.
Had to quote this, as a reminder of what an insane world we live in if nothing else.
-
C'mon!!! You know you hate them. Let the hate flow!!! Look at those despicable icons of American power!!!
(http://radio.weblogs.com/0115787/images/My%20Pictures/Sun-Through-WTC.jpg)
-
Holy crap Ripsnort I disnt even really notice that post...
I guess he also supports the 311 Madrid train bombings... My god he is psychopath...
-
No communication without honesty. Everyone on this board is pretty free to express their feelings so long as the attacks don't get too personal. No one is telling you that you gotta love the USA but if you want any conversation here you may want to go lighter on the vitriol. I admit to being caustic on occasion as well.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
I despise the US too! What other country on earth is more evil than the US?
Maybe the Russians, they just do´nt have the possibilies to show it right now, when you guys are making such a grand job, taking up all of the attention.
-
So far Crabofix admitted that he despises the US, that he has no problem with the killing of civilians, and that he agrees Sweden held it's hands to their crotch and whined like a girl, yet did nothing to stop Hitler in Europe. Yet he argues that the US didn't come to Europe's aid sooner! What a moron.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Holy crap Ripsnort I disnt even really notice that post...
I guess he also supports the 311 Madrid train bombings... My god he is psychopath...
That's the post I sent to Suzzy about 2 hours ago...
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Holy crap Ripsnort I disnt even really notice that post...
I guess he also supports the 311 Madrid train bombings... My god he is psychopath...
The bombings of the train in Madrid was not a nice thing. But if a country involves them selfs in a occupation, they have to count on some kind of retaliation. It must have been horrible for the Spainyards to see that "far away" war, being brought into their own backyard. Seeing their own civilians getting killed, not only Iraq civilians on television.
What is worse, to drop a bomb from an airplane on a building, hospital, train or hide some explosives? Is not the outcome the same? Is not the suffer the same?
Whos next?
And is it impossible anywhere in the world? If drugs are so easy to smuggle in hughe quantites, why not explosives?
-
care about human lives, no matter if they are US lifes, or Iraqian lives.
You don’t care about human lives if you praise the current group that is fighting against Iraqi self-rule. It’s these types of people who historically have killed and have caused the deaths of far more Iraqi children then the US.
They aren’t fighting for "freedom". They are fighting because the closer Iraq moves to self-rule and "freedom" the less power they will have.
If you cared about human life then you have no choice but to hope that the coalition succeeds and that Iraq is transformed into a liberal democracy.
At the very least you could do is be honest and not paint your anti-Americanism with a false coat of morality.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
The bombings of the train in Madrid was not a nice thing. But if a country involves them selfs in a occupation, they have to count on some kind of retaliation.
So basically you support the 311 Madrid terrorist bombings.
Just admit these things and stop trying to bs ur way around it. Trust me, you'll feel a lot better when you are honest about your feelings and openly express them.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So basically you support the 311 Madrid terrorist bombings.
God forbid his country takes a stand on anything.
-
I don't think, that Japan will get back their people alive. Not Japan nor any other country.
At friday about 1500-1700 of local time USAF planes attacked Al-Falluge and used there so-called "needle" bombs against civilians. The weapon wich is in the "Weapon of Mass Destruction" list and wich is prohibitied in the whole world. They began an attack when Iraqis stopped shooting because of time armistice asked by USA side. USA asked for this, as they said: To transport injured into hospitals and to avoid the losses among the peace population.
USA tryed to found WMD in Iraq and bringed it there themself and used it.
Deleting "Were is the gratefullness from Iraq" topic is showing again what is your "Right to Free speech" and your "Democracy".
Don't you think that your "democracy" became too bloodness to Iraq?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
God forbid his country takes a stand on anything.
I wouldnt really say carbofix's behavior is a matter iof swedish national character. Its really more a matter of the swedish education and national health care systems...
-
Estel, you have a source for this action and these "needle bombs"?
-
I think HTC is too generous with the anonymous bbs accounts. ;)
-
Ripsnort: If it's called Chicken of the Sea is it chicken...or tuna?
Crab: Chicken.
Grunherz: Tuna.
Crab: Chicken!!! It says it on the can!!!
Grunherz: Tuna, you moron!! Taste it and see!!
Crab: CHICKEN!!!
Grunherz: TUNA!!!
Ripsnort: (thinking to himself) I wish it was Monday. That way Rush Limbaugh could tell me if it's chicken or tuna.
-
Originally posted by Airhead
Ripsnort: If it's called Chicken of the Sea is it chicken...or tuna?
Crab: Chicken.
Grunherz: Tuna.
Crab: Chicken!!! It says it on the can!!!
Grunherz: Tuna, you moron!! Taste it and see!!
Crab: CHICKEN!!!
Grunherz: TUNA!!!
Good post Airhead.
In truth its obviously tuna. But carbofix tries dress it up as some sort of chicken because it suits his predetrmined marketing needs..
:D
-
Originally posted by Batz
You don’t care about human lives if you praise the current group that is fighting against Iraqi self-rule. It’s these types of people who historically have killed and have caused the deaths of far more Iraqi children then the US.
They aren’t fighting for "freedom". They are fighting because the closer Iraq moves to self-rule and "freedom" the less power they will have.
If you cared about human life then you have no choice but to hope that the coalition succeeds and that Iraq is transformed into a liberal democracy.
At the very least you could do is be honest and not paint your anti-Americanism with a false coat of morality.
Freedom?
Freedom to be ruled by a Iman who follows the koran?
If they want to belive in their God, please let them.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Freedom?
Freedom to be ruled by a Iman who follows the koran?
If they want to belive in their God, please let them.
Moqtada Al-Sadr is a fringe figure. He isnt even a legitimate trained and recognized Imam in the Islamic faith. The real Iraqi Shia religious leadership doesnt recognize him, he has very few followers and the vast majority of Iraqis despise him and think he is a young punk... Thats why he is so much aginst real freedom and democracy in Iraq, that would be the end of him.. Thats why he is trying to get power by military means.
And the rest of the insurgents are mostly ex-baath party sunnis who would seek the deny the majority of Iraqis, who are Shia islamic sect, their full exercise of religious freedom as was done under saddam...
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Good post Airhead.
In truth its obviously tuna. But carbofix tries dress it up as some sort of chicken because it suits his predetrmined marketing needs..
:D
Actually it's dolphin, a bit of shrimp, some albatross and some tuna.
It's more complicated than being either just chicken or tuna. ;)
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So basically you support the 311 Madrid terrorist bombings.
Just admit these things and stop trying to bs ur way around it. Trust me, you'll feel a lot better when you are honest about your feelings and openly express them.
Why would I support this? Why would I support anyone getting killed anywhere? All I am saying, when you involve yourself in something, you have to count on being involved all the way, not only just a little.
You can not be suprised or outraged if the war is brought into your own soil.
You see, in war, people die.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Why would I support this? Why would I support anyone getting killed anywhere?
you "have no problem" with civilians being killed in Iraq, moron.
-
This was my last post, concerning this.
We can go on arguing and we can throw ***** all around us, nothing will change that we either agree on facts or we do not.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Why would I support this? Why would I support anyone getting killed anywhere? All I am saying, when you involve yourself in something, you have to count on being involved all the way, not only just a little.
You can not be suprised or outraged if the war is brought into your own soil.
You see, in war, people die.
We have accepted that. We've even accepted that many won't like what we do.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
you "have no problem" with civilians being killed in Iraq, moron.
there is a war going on, moron
-
Freedom?
Freedom to be ruled by a Iman who follows the koran?
If they want to belive in their God, please let them.
The Iraqis haven't and wont chose to be ruled by Sadr or a Sunni. That’s the why they are fighting, because they know this is their last chance to grab at power.
If Sadr thought he would be elected or chosen by a majority of Iraqis he would just wait for the first election. He doesn't have popular support. He killed a Shi'a cleric; his men and Sistani's followers have clashed many times.
-
Originally posted by crabofix
I do not see any problems in killing scumbags from either ITALY, POLAND, BULGARIA, DENMARK, UK, USA, SPAIN, etc, etc.
No matter if they would be civilians.
I despise USA, yes
Just a reminder to everyne...
-
might save you guys some typing if ya add "moron" to yer sig, hey, what a swell idea. ;)
-
Iron. Done.
:)
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Estel, you have a source for this action and these "needle bombs"?
Yes sure. It was shown yesterday on EuroNews and on all russian TV-channels.
-
Originally posted by Estel
Yes sure. It was shown yesterday on EuroNews and on all russian TV-channels.
What I meant was, could you share it with us? You know a hyperlink?
-
http://www.euronews.net/
But I didnt find anything on "needle bombs". A google search of needle bombs turned up nothing as well.
-
"needle" is straight translate from russian. "Igolchataya bomba". I don't know how does it sound in english.
-
http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=accueil_info&lng=10&option=0,home
Sorry, it's in russian. But you can ask somebody with better english (like Boroda) to translate.
-
I knew about the hostages, just not about the US using illegal "needle bombs". I think Estel is really letsE in disguise.
-
Fun for the whole family!
HostIraqoRama Home Version (http://ad.debka.com/pictures_e/southWar2C.jpg)
-
This "needle bombs" are called also "ball-bombs", cassete bombs with ball elements, with killing particles (ball-bearing steel balls or other things) molded (wrong word probably) inside the shells. I have seen such things recovered from Vietnam in our department museum in college.
I don't know if they were prohibited by international conventions, but I don't know if they were manufactured in USSR, so Estel probably had no experience using them.
Anyway, bombing apartment blocks with cassete weapons is beyond my comrehension. It's inhuman.
-
cluster bombs?
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Anyway, bombing apartment blocks with cassete weapons is beyond my comrehension. It's inhuman.
Anti-human anyhow. If cluster bombs are being used I bet they aren't being used indiscriminately but only against armed combatants.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Anti-human anyhow. If cluster bombs are being used I bet they aren't being used indiscriminately but only against armed combatants.
Yeah, cluster bombs with "ball" antipersonell elements.
Bombing apartment blocks can be barely called "usage only against armed combatants".
This ball-bombs are a horrible weapon, believe me. Killing elements embedded inside the steel shells can kill for hundreeds of meters. It means literally fields of no survival.
It can't be called "precicion weapons", it's just carpet-bombing fields to tear everything alive in parts.
-
What ever happens to the Japanese hostages (unfortunetly probably death) Japan will probably pull it's troops out by June 30th. Think Portugal and a couple others are also on the cards for departure.
...-Gixer
-
Sorry, I am not familiar with English weapon-design terms, so I use lame translation of Russian terms that I have learned in college.
-
Combatants? But as a result there are over 500 civilian corpses and over 1000 injured. Combatants are still shooting. I understand that USA still use the perfect bomb sights, bombs always hit into the Earth.
-
http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=accueil_info&lng=10&option=0,home
Translation of the article Estel linked using babelfish
Iraqi fighters threaten to execute the hostages Representatives of the acting in Iraq group of &.tsuot;Brigady of hero- martyr Ahmet yasina&.tsuot; they stated on Saturday that 30 foreign citizens are located in them as the hostages. It is asserted that among the stolen people there are citizens of the United States, Israel, South Korea, Bulgaria, Spain and Japan. To all to them, as fighters threaten, will be cut off heads, if Americans do not remove blockade the ale -Falludji
Iraqi fighters continue attacks on the military and civil escorts. From the Baghdad international airport they were not far attacked from the ambush and burnt the American tank of &.tsuot;Abrams&.tsuot; and several armored carriers. In the suburb ale -Falludji on the road Baghdad- amman was attacked the column of the supply of troops OF THE USA. Several machines were destroyed. Iraqi fighters took in the hostages of driver of one of the automobiles. After seating it into their machine, rebels allowed Australian journalists to assign several questions to prisoner. American chauffeur described about how attack was perfected to their escort and was named its name - Thomas khemill. They drove away after this hostage also thus far nothing it is known about his further fate.
In Sunday elapses the period of the ultimatum, tempered by the kidnappers of three citizens of Japan to the government of this country, in order to derive military contingent from Iraq. Otherwise Iraqi fighters threaten to execute them.
Nothing on bomblets, ball bombs cluster bombs or needle bombs.
This Story was Posted on 12/16/2003 12:10 PM then updated on 12/16/2003 12:10 PM by USA today:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x.htm
EDIT
I read the wrong date. The USA today article linked above is old and is describing the US advance on Bagdad last year. Corrections are in bold.
-
Yes. It's a rotated news. I'll find a hard link for you.
-
Originally posted by Estel
I understand that USA still use the perfect bomb sights, bombs always hit into the Earth.
There is a major difference of the aviation usage in city combat. In 1995 our Su-25s have hit canalisation hatches with concrete-penetration bombs to bust the Dudayev's bunker in Grozniy. And the world's best air-force uses cluster anti-personnel boms against civilian dwellings... :(
I hope it's all media lies, otherwise the people who ordered such bombings are military criminals.
Didn't they try napalm yet?... It's cheaper and more effective :mad:
-
Originally posted by AKIron
I think HTC is too generous with the anonymous bbs accounts. ;)
Do you mean me and Estel?
Thank you, very nice.
-
You guys should stop believing russian news sources. I remember the kind of freaked-out news you would report from GW2 with hundreds of AH64s shot down and thousands of US troops killed etc etc.
If there were any cluster bombs used on civilians, you would see it in the media no less than 10 minutes afterwards. Not only are there alot of western media on the ground, but also al jazeira and that other pro-arab news agency is firmly embedded with the terrorist.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Do you mean me and Estel?
Thank you, very nice.
No, I meant Estel. I suspected Estel was a second or third account that some wiseacre was using to troll. If I'm mistaken then you have my apology.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
You guys should stop believing russian news sources. I remember the kind of freaked-out news you would report from GW2 with hundreds of AH64s shot down and thousands of US troops killed etc etc.
Wow, thanks for help. I'll use this later. By the way. I'm looking not only russian TV. But also european. Maybe I need to stop beleving Europian TV too? Because scenes showing there sometimes going to disagree with official point of USA congress?
If there were any cluster bombs used on civilians, you would see it in the media no less than 10 minutes afterwards. Not only are there alot of western media on the ground, but also al jazeira and that other pro-arab news agency is firmly embedded with the terrorist.
Al-Jazeira was first company who reported about it in 30 minutes after the strike.
I have a question.... Did you watch TV when USA bombed Yugoslavia? If yes, tell me, did USA media report about air strikes against civilians there or as usually they forgot it?
You are forgetting one thing. USA involved into the occupation war. The normal situation is filtering and correcting information going trough media. It is mading for people not start anti-war demonstrations. It's normal practice for any country involved into the war.
-
Originally posted by AKIron
No, I meant Estel. I suspected Estel was a second or third account that some wiseacre was using to troll. If I'm mistaken then you have my apology.
Confirmed. Just Boroda asked me to registrate here. He said that here is a place where are people with which is possible to discuss in set of interesting themes.
But you must understand, that my opinion is sometimes _very_ different from yours. Mostly because I borned in USSR.
-
Look at my avatar
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Look at my avatar
Yes. I see. So what? You don't have TV at home?
-
Originally posted by Estel
Confirmed. Just Boroda asked me to registrate here. He said that here is a place where are people with which is possible to discuss in set of interesting themes.
But you must understand, that my opinion is sometimes _very_ different from yours. Mostly because I borned in USSR.
Understood Estel. I also know that most people born in the USSR don't have two heads and that some of them are even very reasonable. ;) My youngest son is even engaged to marry one of them.
-
Sorry guys, we have to stop entertaining you for a while, me and Estel are going to drink vodka.
Have a good time untill tomorrow! ;)
-
Za Zdrovia
-
Geesh three pages of girls swinging their handbags at each other and pouting and no one gets banned??????
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Za Zdrovia
Thanks. We will drink per 100 gramms especially for your health :-)
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Understood Estel. I also know that most people born in the USSR don't have two heads and that some of them are even very reasonable. ;) My youngest son is even engaged to marry one of them.
Your son is engaged to an unreasonable two headed Russian??? My God man, try to talk him out of it, unless he speaks fluent Russian. Otherwise both those heads will talk about him.
-
LOL
Wish I could think of a witty comeback. :D
-
Iron, we have drank a glass for your health, another for the health of your youngest son and then for the health of your other children :)
-
Sounds like eveyone is gonna be real healthy Boroda :D
-
Originally posted by AKIron
Sounds like eveyone is gonna be real healthy Boroda :D
Except me and Estel ;) My liver is aching! :D