Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RAM on March 01, 2000, 11:30:00 PM
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Look I'm really tiiiired of the long range Buff uberfire. REALLY TIRED!!!!...lets see...I was on a P38 following a B26. I tried a surprise attack but my gunnery as always,sucked. I got distance on it and I SPRAYED (pings ALL AROUND THE PLANE) during nearly 1-2 seconds from 900-1k yds...no effect. No damage no nothing!!!!!!:...I go down pull out ,shoot (and miss), and I try to go down again. he pings me ONCE (1 time, 1 sound...) and he DESTROYS my engine from 800 yds on a DEFLECTION shoot.
Look,no way. I am tired of this. In any fighter this would have been a ditch for me. And it was, because while landing I stalled and ploooof!!!. The B26 was UNSCATHED...now...where is here the realism?...mmm???...12.7 pings, 20mm pings and he goes singing while I see one of my engines stop because ONE ping...
but man,no, this wasnt the worse...no no...I still tried to catch the bomber but I couldnt. the B-26 kept firing me and HIT ME AGAIN FROM 1.8K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1.8K=1800yds=1700meters=1.7Kms...looooooooong distance...Loooooooong way....and he hits me. eventually he got one of my MGs. so he DAMAGED me from 1.8K while I did nothing to him from 1K!!!!
NO WAY,this is not realistic. This is a deeeep blaaaaack hole into AH, along with ack!
Please Fix the damned Sniper-firing bomber guns!!!
This isnt the first time this happens to me. But is the first time I film it!! so I have probes!!!!!!!!!...
BTW,I checked packet loss...I usually have 10-25% loss. this time I cheched and I had only 5% packet loss.
As I said,please Fix this!
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-01-2000).]
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Ram not saying what you saw was wrong but if you were on the B26' 6and you saw 800yds he might have seen 500yds it a net lag thing. pretty sure it is the same for AH as other games are. Yuo can take about 2 to 300 yds off when you look at the 6 of a nme. Ifyou get behind a friendly ask him what he sees. It should be the same thing. I have seen this before could be same here in AH.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Crew
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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I drove a p-38 off from D-1.6 in a B-26 tonite. Ram dive below them to keep the tail gun from hitting you and pull up into their belly and you have a better chance of killing them.
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Also, keep in mind that you are flying towards his bullets, while he's flying away from yours.
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haha RAM , there u going trying to ditch again... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
I get irratated with the uber large shell radius guns in the buffs too, but when I calm down, I realize its hard for 1 man (usually, sometimes 2 men) to fly the plane and man all the guns. Make a smart attack and the buff will explode on 1st pass and you will escape untouched. I can kill buffs at will when I take the "time" to set up the attack. "time" is the key word.
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Coyote
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what coyote said .. attack them from the sides from slightly underneath (prefferable fron quarter) and you'll be presented with
a) a BIG FAT TARGET (tail)
b) the least guns he bear on you
c) a real nice kill message after he blew up
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(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 03-02-2000).]
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I had the same type of thing happen. Granger and I chased down a b26. He intercepted first and according to him poured tons of ammo into it. I then intercepted the bomber and it appeared to have no damage. I then landed about 35 hits directly on the b26's rudder. (I was using 109 with 30mm + gondolas. I used ALL of my 30mm before I was destroyed with 1 ping.) I never saw any tracers from the bomber as well. Granger and I called up the bomber and he reported no damage at all. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
Something has GOT to be wrong somewhere. (Unfortunately I did not film this fight.)
Rubber bullets all over again??? I hope not.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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RAM,
Speaking for those of us who spend 1/2 or more of our time in BUFFs, we think that the odds already favor the fighters plenty.
In tour 1; B-17's have enjoyed 2402 kills at the expense of 4340 deaths. That is not a great ratio, especially if you consider that the BUFFS spend 3 to 5 times the amount of time getting to altitude and to enemy teritory as the fighters must spend to intercept them.
B-26's have 4095 kills, at the cost of 5917 deaths, a little better than the B-17, but still, a far worse ratio than any fighter experiences.
Fighters always have the choice to engage a bomber, or not. They can also wait untill they have a clear advantage before attacking.
Personally, I would like to see Gunner improvements, such as automatically switching to the next gun when it is moved to the extent of it's track. IE, track a target down from the tail and automatically switch to the ball when the gun travel hits bottom.
I would like to suggest that you spend about 1/3 of your time in BUFFs for awhile and then tell us what you think of the BUFFs leathality.
Don't forget that there must be an incentive to fly any particular plane. No one wants to just fly around and be someone's cannon fodder, which is often what BUFF driving is!
eskimo
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--- Indian: ---
but if you were on the B26' 6and you saw 800yds he might have seen 500yds it a net lag thing.
--- end ---
Actually it's the other way around. If you are on someone's six, you will see the shorter distance. Hence HT has made buffs' gunners be able to hit from longer ranges to compensate for this effect.
//fats
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"I get irratated with the uber large shell radius guns in the buffs too, but when I calm down, I realize its hard for 1 man (usually, sometimes 2 men) to fly the plane and man
all the guns."
Hitech has said the the effective range of the buff's guns is greater than that of the fighters for the above reason and to prevent a fighter from just sitting on a buff's 6 and
hosing away. As for hits not causing any damage, well, as others have said, lag, dropped packets, and so forth. On one-ping kills: if the code is like it is in WBs (probably is), one ping can equal many hits-- what you hear isn't what you get. Besides that, even it was only one round into an inline engine, the engine could be killed.
These days, if I don't have an alt advantage on a buff or a big speed advantage, I think twice about taking him on.
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I was pinged many times by a B26 from 1.3-1.4 while I was slowly pulling away from it (Trying to extend). Ended up shooting me down at around 1.6. It was my mistake for getting caught like that, but ya know!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
No big deal because I get shot down all the time, but I thought this was a bit unusual!
Just mark it off as a lesson learned!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swagercolour.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-02-2000).]
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I can feel for you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
My personal policy is to just not attack bombers anymore. Its just not worth it.
The other night I started a high speed 10 to 2 pass on a B-17 and I got pilot pinged from 1.8 at about 400 IAS on the buffs first shot.
Strange that my x6 .50 cals can't down a buff in two or three high quality passes, but his x2 or x4 depending on angle can totally rip my fighter in half with a half second burst at two or three times the distance.
Between Stratosphere Buffs and the Uberguns, I just don't consider them worth the frustration anymore.
Totally ridiculous.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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For the buff people:
Lets see, I understand that the gunnery must be improved for you, cuz you are one or two in the lone buff. What I dont understand is that ONE ping at 800yds (in my computer) of 12.7mms kills one engine,and 1-2 seconds of 12.7mm and 20mms pings DO NO DAMAGE to a B-26 at 900-1k yds (again in my computer). And about those pings at 1.8K...LOL!!!!!!! please make a gunnery award in AH...lets see who hits me at the longest range!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Something is VERY wrong here!!!!!! P38a had VERY concentrated fire and the 20mm was a Hispano!!!!!. Look I understand that a 12.7mm single ping can kill an engine. Also can do nastier things: Tuesday I followed a B26, I sprayed it and he exploded...just after killing my pilot,again with only ONE ping.
I dont complain about it, I accept it as a possible situation, after all I also made the bomber go boom. But what happened this time is COMPLETELY different. and this must be fixed. 12.7mm on bombers can be more accurate for playing reasons, but please dont make them uberaccurate 37mms!!!!!
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-02-2000).]
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RAM I see you have 2 kills w/ 3 deaths in the 17, and 4 kills w/ 7 deaths in the 26, with a total of 49 buff sorties in tour 1.
I have 92 kills w/ 85 deaths in the 17 and 246 kills w/ 93 deaths in the 26, with a total sortie count of 448.
Now, before you go sayin my B26 K/D just helps prove your point, I have only landed 113 of those 448 sorties. I have 25 discoes, 94 bails, 32 ditches, and a total of 184 deaths. All of the bails and a little better than half of the ditches came from enemy action. Also note that the 26 is the bird I use when we sneak attack a field, and the vast majority of those kills are from vulching (I have more kills from dropping bombs on people OTR than from sittin on the spawn point in me 26, for the record).
The .50s are FUBAR'ed and have been since around version .48-.49. I believe this comes from the tweaking to the damage models of the birds. Back in beta tour 2 someone (though I can't remember who) said the .50s were turned down for play balance issues (why w/ 20mm and 30mm flyin I'll never understand). As the damage models were tweaked and the fighters were made harder, the .50s weren't turned up. Keep in mind this is personal speculation, garnered from experience in the arena.
Once upon a time I could take a lone B17 into enemy territory at 15k, w/o escorts, pick up 5-6 kills, and nurse my wounded fortress home to land (or atleast ditch at a friendly field). Now it's suicide to even attempt that w/o mutliple fighter escorts because the .50s have lost thier teeth. Once I was confident that I was untouchable (as long as I had ammo), but now I start to really sweat any bandits that close, because more often than not the bandit kills me and I've got a 50/50 chance of killing him. There have been way too many times I've pumped 2-3 seconds worth of fire into an attacking bandit only to get killed and him fly away with no damage, or maybe missing an aileron. And I'm talking 2-3 seconds of SOLID hits, hit sprites from the time I squeeze the trigger til the time I die. My connection usually runs 140-160pings w/ no packet loss, and it damn sure ain't my gunner skills. There are many of the experienced pilots that'll tell you they're very wary of approaching my buffs, even with the toothless wonders I have for guns.
Maybe I should start shooting much farther out. I usually hold my fire until about 1.1k, and then I only fire if they're actually turned in and committed to an attack. The reason for this is I have never gotten a kill beyond 1.1k on my front end, and the ones at 1.1k are the spray and pray spits that hang back at that distance and more often than not take one of my wings and fly away undamaged after absorbing 5-6 seconds of solid hits from my guns.
And HTC, if the weak .50s are some kind of ploy to try and get more buff formations in the arena, shame on you, and fix'em.
[This message has been edited by CavemanJ (edited 03-02-2000).]
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In tour 2, from bombers, I have scored 109 gunner hits, downing a ME-109 and 3 Spits. Thats an average of 27 hits per plane killed. Probably pretty typical for 50 cals.
I am the furthest thing from an expert, but I also suspect that "what you hear" is not neccessarily "what you get".
I do know, however, that a buff can appear undamaged but yet be hurting. Buffs also have lots of uncritical parts, to which you can punch many holes without causing a major faliure.
eskimo
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RAM,
That may have been me in that B26, flying 17k or so E-NE of field 8.
I did suffer a left aileron damage and something on the right (don't remember specifically what ctrl-d said but it was a control surface), but I went on to fly for another hour or so and acutally landed that sortie. Turns were sluggish but rudder was helping.
Last night I flew 5 B26 missions, all to F8 from F1. I have been opening up at the longest distance possible (up to D2) to see how the bullets fly/arc and see if I could land any pings. I feel that I was able to see some hits (mostly misses) at D1.5 - D1.8 on most planes I shot at (had 5 kills on 5 sorties, was downed 3 times I think). Most of the hits from my POV were from the tail gunner although I think a side gun and the top gun may have shot once or twice. All three of my deaths were due to engine damage and then wings falling off.
To tell you the truth the only time I remember seeing hits on your plane was that last few seconds as you trailed off...the D1.8 comment may very well be pretty accurate as far as I am concerned. I was surprised when you disengaged (now I know why of course). I did not realize that the kill shot was D800, I thought it might have even been longer (I get a little excited gunning and forget a lot). I have never filmed but I will try to start remembering.
One thing that stood out about that encounter was this: I wanted to commend you on your approach to my plane (yes I was watching you as from before the time your icon became visible). Your low approach from my 4-5 o'clock made it absolutely impossible to get any clear shots from the side or rear guns until you pulled up and started shooting...mostly around D1.0 or less. I was only able to pull off shots at that time and also as you trailed off after each run, until you went out of range again. Personally I approach 17s and 26s wrong, and watching you was a good learning experience for me the next time I am in my 205 approaching a 26.
I am running this game on a Pentium Pro (!) 200mhz with a connect of 28.8, frame rate usually 20 or so. Nobody has ever told me I am lagging. I know my specs are on the low end but the game is very playable for me and I have not heard any complaints yet about anything I am flying (I would leave the arena if this was so).
Fury
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 03-02-2000).]
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When players are getting 67 kills vs 4 deaths against the b17g its hard to make a case for decreasing the lethality of the bomber mounted 50cal..
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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Caveman,
I think your info demonstrates that it's a good thing HTC changed something from the early beta. No way, no how should a lone Buff be able to feel "safe" even when being attacked by fighters.
A lone buff should be dogmeat to enemy fighters IMHO. It's weaker than it was early beta, but a lone buff is far from an easy kill in AH. I basically don't bother unless my country needs me to kill a buff, or I am higher and faster. Going after a buff from anything like a co-E situation is suicide right now. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's what I find.
FWIW, I think the issue here isn't the range quite so much as the convergence issues. Because a buff gunner can control all the guns that bear on the target, when you get pinged you really get hammered. Maybe spreading the aim points for the guns other than the one you sit in would give us a more realistic effect?
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(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 03-02-2000).]
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Buffs do not have convergance they spray in a huge pattern.
HiTech
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Hey Ram ,
don't be frustrated, just work on your attack behavior. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A buff attack has to be fast,fast,fast+ its also higly recomandet to change sides while closing.
I do alot of buff hunting and i love it,
although it's always a huge effort. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As for the long range buff guns: Very often i fly besides a 17 or 26 at 1.3 -1.1d for a while and they fire at me, i hear the bullets but very seldom was pinged then.Sure i don't fly straight + level when the bullets comes near.
I only remember 1 situation when i was hit by b17 guns from 1.6d on my fe, and this hit was deadly. Yeah was a little bit strange, but this was 1 time from much more than 100 attacks on buffs.
btw. I seldom open up fire at more than 600 yards when attacking buffs.
blitz
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One side note: ONE PING SOUND AT YOUR END COULD MEAN THAT 4-5 SHELLS HAVE ALREADY HIT YOU.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
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Here we go again! *sigh*
We've been arguing this in WB now for about 5 years, and nobody is really happy with the robot "otto" gunners.
Now in AH, HTC has taken the needed step in eliminating the robot portion of it, requiring a buffer to be pilot, navigator, bombadier, gunner and massage therapist(oops, freudian slip). At the same time they've given the buff guns a bit of extra range to prevent the dead 6 attack dweebs from being able to plink away all day long.
What more do you guys want? Sounds to me like you want to have nice, slow sitting ducks with which to practice your gunnery on.
Leph has a point. A lone, unescorted bomber flying at low alt should be meat on the table. But do we want to take realism to the level where it is simply not an option to fly a lone bomber at all in AH?
To me, the crux of the issue is this: Do we want to have lone buffing be effective and survivable, or do we want to make box formation flying with a minimum of 12 bombers mandatory?
I don't fly Bombers in AH very much, because I fly them a great deal in Warbirds. In AH, I've decided to be a fighter puke for the majority of the time. That being said, I respect the buff lovers out there, and have no problem with how difficult it is to attack them at the current time. If I really get the urge to bust some buffs, I make sure that I have an alt advantage, and that I attack from hi 2 or 4.
While I would love to see large formations of bombers become the norm, I'd hate to see all of the lone buffers have to give up their love, just to satisfy the bloodlust of the fighter jocks.
Donning flamesuit, fire away! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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banana
**MOL** (Men of Leisure)
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RAM, I don't feel it's a buff vs fighter issue because I've seen the same type of weird lag in the fighter vs fighter engagements.
I'm convinced it's more of a lag problem that just so happens to be in the favor of some people. It's frustrating to say the least and it will be the reason I cancel my account if something’s not done. I love the game but I will not pay for a product that does not compensate for the lag of some players. I gave up modems years ago and I'll be damned if I have to play on a modem to get the same type of lag benefits (if it truly is a modem problem and not someone messing with their packets on a faster connection). I just found a old 33.6 modem that I plan to hook up and do some testing side by side with my other game machine on a T1 with less than 10 people using it and no web servers, or ftp's running. When I test with real life friends on a variety of different connections it seems to work correctly. In most cases testing with people I trust to tell me the truth about damage, a ping or 2 results in damage in the range of 800 and below.
I find it hard to believe that others are not experiencing some of these same types of problems.
Last night I chased a lone B26 for about 45mins. When I got close I got a ping from the b26 while I was still 1.4 away and it wounded me (the pilot)!!! I backed away and got some speed... I charged under the buff at 900 then pulled up into the b26's belly. I pumped several hundred rounds of .50cal (I was in a 38 with 2000 rounds)all along the fuselage of the b26 my .50 cal convergence was set to 600. I thought I was firing my 20mm but I realized after the attack run that I had just dropped my tanks. NO DAMAGE visible! I closed from 900 to as close as 400 all the while pumping rounds into the b26. Could it have been that my bullets were to slow to cause the damage since my p38 was only flying close to 250mph at the time and the bullets had gravity pushing them back down since I was firing almost straight up? I doubt it.
I dropped back down and leveled out to get some more speed when, the b26 is spraying but I'm now 1.7 out and I'm not that concerned since the tracers are not even close to me..then PING! PING! PING!... WTF? Right engine is gone.. leaking fuel and I lost a small part of a wing from 1.7!
I asked the b26 fighter in open channel if he had any damage and I never got a response. I radioed his location ahead to my country and broke off to try and land. Being very frustrated I watched (on radar)as several other pilots gave up on killing this b26 because they said that the b26 wouldn’t go down. I didn’t see them fighting the b26 so I don’t know if they were truly getting hits on the b26 but I know I did.
I believe I have this all on film…. I’ll dig through my films and see if I can find it.
(http://lrbell8.home.mindspring.com/mox902-0.jpg)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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A new form of the "Otto" Debate.
Swager, I think I was in the B-17 that hit you at 1.6. You had somehow matched my speed, and appeared to be just hanging there. After a few quick spurts to figure out the travel, well. Needless to say I too was a little amazed when you went down.
If the attack was a high right rear quarter attack, to a low (Almost directly below the Belly Gunner) attack. Then It was me. I sometime toss a few rounds out trying to make the attacker think twice. Your plane appeared to be just sitting there.
I would say the engagement started at D1.6 and ended with you at 1.2 below me.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
One side note: ONE PING SOUND AT YOUR END COULD MEAN THAT 4-5 SHELLS HAVE ALREADY HIT YOU.
If this is true then why is it not changed? Is the damage model supposed to generate a PING for each and every bullet hitting you? Or is it just lag?
I'm not doubting you Rip as you have a lot more experience with this sim than I do.
I want a to hear a ping for each bullet hitting my plane. Lets face it the real pilots knew damn well when their plane was hit because of the noise and the shake and shudder. I don't believe we have any planes in AH that had the "paper" wings.
Cannons shells hitting were even worse.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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I don't think the issue is about wanting defenseless buffs.
I think the issue is about playing on an even field.
Currently HiTech gave the bombers guns a "boost" in range and lethality to compensate for lag and other internet strangeness.
Personally, I feel that the "boost" is too high.
The optimum effect is if the players feel like they can confidently engage one another at the same "percieved" distance (including lag effects).
Right now though, Bomber gunners know they can reasonably engage, hit, and destroy enemy aircraft out to 1.5k, and get critical hits out to as far as 1.8k (in my experience). And this is the distance on the fighters FE. Fighters can't reasonably get hits till half that distance.
So I think it needs to be adjusted till the bombers can reliably hit out to about 700-800, on the fighters FE. The same approximate distance the fighter can engage the buff. A little leeway may be needed, but right now the range disparity is immense.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Mox, I shouldn't even respond to you since you have a tendency to say "Bite me" when people ask you nicely to take your arguments with others from open channel to private when online, however, I can get beyond that..
your answer is correct, lag. I've heard this talked about from Ck>>WB>>AH by HT and crew.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Mox, I shouldn't even respond to you since you have a tendency to say "Bite me" when people ask you nicely to take your arguments with others from open channel to private when online, however, I can get beyond that..
your answer is correct, lag. I've heard this talked about from Ck>>WB>>AH by HT and crew.
Rip, Are you sure you have the right person your talking about? I've never been asked to take a conversation private.... I rarely ever type in the open channel. I never have argued in the public channel, in fact the most you might ever see me say would be "Did you take any damage?" or maybe even as extreme as "Please check your connection".
"I've heard this talked about from Ck>>WB>>AH by HT and crew."
I didn't play any of those sims.. AH is still very new to me. Was the ping problem present in all the other sims you listed? I didn't play them. This is my first experience with this type of lag.
For the record I've never said "Bite Me!"
Also for the record... Ripsnort, I have never seen you lag the way I'm talking about nor was my message directed towards you in anyway (except for the question about lag).
Mox “confused”
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-02-2000).]
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Fury: yes the engagement was E-NE F8,so I guess that was you then...
Your point of view its mostly the same as mine...from 900yds-1K I got 2 seconds burst on your plane,and you only had aileron and maybe elevator or flap gone. You got one ping at 800 yds and my Engine was gone. Another ping at 1.8K and MG gone...<S> on your gunnery...but sorry this is unacceptable. So long range hits are unacceptable.
Hitech, yes, the Bombers need help but no these laser guns. I believe that this is a good example of how overmodelled are the bombers in this sim. Please make them playable. But PLEASE!!! make them killeable!!!
CaveJ...well excuse me but 5 kills per sortie is also UNACEPTABLE!. If this was a real thing then why have fighters in WWII??? then Schweinfurt would've been a slaughter for LW!!!!. Yes, I know that a lone bomber isn't playable in realistic ways. But the help given is TOO MUCH to be accepted.5 kills per shortie??.My god.
Hitech,again,I think i'm talking for MANY people here...fix those turbolasers to a credible point. The 190A-8 was a bomber killer...If I cant kill bombers in it What can I do then?!?!?!?!?!
To all the people. The attack I developed was to go 1K UNDER the B26. Then pop up and go for him from the under side. After it, go down again and pop up again. In the second pop up he got my left engine with a single ping. My attack was a good one (not my shooting on the second pop up), but this S**T made it fail at all.
If you want good Gunner cover, take a B17. If you want speed take the B26. But both were VERY vulnerable to fighers, speccialy the B-26. I accept they must be somehow overmodelled to make a buff playable, but right now is like giving the buff the Death Star's lasers!!!!!!!!
Fix it,please.Thks in advance
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-02-2000).]
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was a double post.
Mox
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-02-2000).]
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Ram,
I usually attack bombers from a high 2 or 4 position and make a slicing attack. I have had the good fortune of knocking down the bomber on first pass the majority of the time and not taking any damage.
I will admit that I take alot of time setting up the attack, which usually includes flying in a little close D1.4 to see how good the gunner is, before I make the final run.
I would disagree with the assesment that the guns are too lethal on the bombers. To me, it seems a good balance. I'm not claiming to be an expert at gunnery, I'm just relating that I find the bombers a relative easy kill, but as with any attack (fighter or bomber) the set-up must be well planned.
(I think I gave Cave a run for his money once or twice) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Until I can back up my accusation with a screen dump of the text conversation (which I *may* have at home on the PC), I withdraw any accusation that I claimed, and I apologize for any grief I may have caused you. I DO know what I read, I *MAY* have misread who said it to me, but I know when I read it, I immediately went right to the in-flight rosters to see if you were on a squad, "The Wrecking crew", it said.
As I mentioned, I'll check my screen dumps, I usually take a snap-shot with this type of rare thing occurs.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
Aces High Training Corps
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/190srip.gif)
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Until I can back up my accusation with a screen dump of the text conversation (which I *may* have at home on the PC), I withdraw any accusation that I claimed, and I apologize for any grief I may have caused you. I DO know what I read, I *MAY* have misread who said it to me, but I know when I read it, I immediately went right to the in-flight rosters to see if you were on a squad, "The Wrecking crew", it said.
As I mentioned, I'll check my screen dumps, I usually take a snap-shot with this type of rare thing occurs.
Ripsnort, Check your email (the one that you listed in your profile) I just sent you a email so we can take this private.
Mox
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-02-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Currently HiTech gave the bombers guns a "boost" in range and lethality to compensate for lag and other internet strangeness.
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Right now though, Bomber gunners know they can reasonably engage, hit, and destroy enemy aircraft out to 1.5k, and get critical hits out to as far as 1.8k (in my experience). And this is the distance on the fighters FE. Fighters can't reasonably get hits till half that distance.
Verm how much time you got actually sittin in a 17 or 26 and manning the guns under fire. I think it can be said that I'm one of the hottest buff gunners in the arena, and the only thing I know for sure when I take off is it'll be a miracle if I make it back to land the sortie if I run into anyone who halfway knows how to shoot and make semi-decent passes on a bomber. At best I kill them, but they get a wing in the process. I get the kill msg, then bail out, then THEY get a kill msg saying they've shot me down. That happened to me 5 times in 2 hours today.
And it's not a boost in lethality, just a 3-400yd boost in range to account for net lag.
CaveJ...well excuse me but 5 kills per sortie is also UNACEPTABLE!. If this was a real thing then why have fighters in WWII??? then Schweinfurt would've been a slaughter for LW!!!!. Yes, I know that a lone bomber isn't playable in realistic ways. But the help given is TOO MUCH to be accepted.5 kills per shortie??.My god.
RAM: what's so unbelievable and unacceptable. The bombers carry more ammo than some of the fighters. I've seen 109s w/o gondolas pull 11+ kill sorties, and a 17 has WAY more ammo onboard than a 109 does. Just because I'm damned good means I have to suffer with with inferior equipment so every newbie dweeb lookin to make a name for himself can kill me and fly away unharmed?
When players are getting 67 kills vs 4 deaths against the b17g its hard to make a case for decreasing the lethality of the bomber mounted 50cal..
Pongo, if one takes the time to fly a B-17 up to 35,000ft or higher they have a massive advantage if a fighter actually makes it up there to intercept them. You've flown with us on the some very high alt intercepts before, like catching that big bish raid on our city/hq two-three weeks ago. Now, put me on the guns in those 17s with us wallowing all about up there having a hard time getting our guns on target. Who's gonna fly and who's gonna die?
Everyone is screaming about the long range of the buff guns. Frankly I haven't seen it. I finished tour 1 with over a million points scored in bombers. I've got 418793 total sortie time in bombers for tour 1. If that figure is seconds, it translates to roughly 116 flight hours in the bombers.
I have not gotten a kill over 1k since around v0.45-0.46
I've smoked engine oil or the radiator on some birds at 1.1, usually spits who are spraying and praying, and watched them finally glide away, only to get a kill msg 5-10 minutes later (assuming I'm still flying). It's NOT my fault that he can't land a deadstick bird.
My connects usually run pings about 150-170 and rarely see packet loss, unless the system is lying to me about loosing packets. But I can still lay 2-4 seconds stream into a bandit, start shooting at 900 yds and keep solid hit sprites on them til I loose wing, usually about d300-d400 (talking about climbing 6 attacks here) and they fly away unharmed. A quick check of the ping shows 150 average w/ no packet loss. Yet I'm the one who's dead after pouring a couple hundred rounds into the engine/wing root/cockpit of a bandit.
And then ya cry about it
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I don't have any complaints about the bombers guns, what I was wondering about was how a b26 could take all 60 rds of 30mm and many rounds of 20mm and have no damage. (This b26 had been hit previously by a 205, who was unable to damage it.) Last tour I had no trouble shooting down bombers, but for some reason I was having a lot of trouble damaging them. As of now, I'm 1 and 3 vs bombers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) On all 3 of them I had hit them at least 30 times each with either an f4u-1c or 109 with gondolas. Except for the one I managed to down, they seemed undamaged by my attacks. Before I blame anyone, I must say that last night's connections were very poor for many people. Savvis was dropping packets on 3 different traces I ran around 7:30 PM PST. (Look up "A few T routes for you" under tech support.) I was also having other problems as well. My computer was clipping, locking, getting discoed, and having stick and sound problems all night long. My RW also was messing up everytime I looked around.
(http://www.ece.orst.edu/~bloom/sigbloom.jpg)
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 03-02-2000).]
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As a mainly fighter jock I have no problems with the damage/gun models in the buffs.
What p*sses me off is when a buff flies into a furball to score easy fighter kills. When your furballing in spits at low alt and some dweeb in a b26 comes in to ackstar you it really defeats what HT is attempting to do with the buff model.
Unless we all want to start flying ackstar 17s there needs to be something to stop this... what I don't know. I only work in complaints - not solutions <g>.
BTW Ripsnort, I think you mean't me... I'm the one that says Bite Me (among other things) on 100 :-)
-vlkn- in
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Thus spaketh Cavej:
I think it can be said that I'm one of the hottest buff gunners in the arena........Just because I'm damned good means I have to suffer with with inferior equipment so every newbie dweeb lookin to make a name for himself can kill me and fly away unharmed?
Ever heard of the word humility? I didn't think so. *Sheesh*
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banana
**MOL** (Men of Leisure)
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It sound like i am the minority in this thread but i think the bomber guns are balenced. When i am flyin a b-26 i am normaly dead when a fighter finds me. my only hope is if i have alt and or a dweeb pilot. if you have alt on a bomber and know how to use it. the bomber is toast.
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Nope, banana...CaveJ is really an outstanding bomber and gunner. You must give each one the credit he deserves, and CaveJ only deserves the bigger of my <S>s!
CaveJ: yes you are VERY good. Yes, you do the best you can so you get 5 kills per sortie. But see that you say that you only do all-out shots under D1K...well then you are sharing my point...more or less...I've killed buffs from away 1K in Corsair-Cs with maximum convergence and wasting nearly all my ammo in the effort,So lets give the 12.7s in the buffs a maximum effective range (in shooting therms) of 1K. and make them useless away from 1.2K.then the damage a 12.7 does at so long range cant be so critical. I got one MG damaged from a 1,8K ping and that is unbeliable. Reduce the LONG range damage on the 12,7mm so you can't do any real damage over 1.2K. That should be much better isnt it???...still dangerous buffs...but killable buffs!!
and again CaveJ, I never wanted you to be upset with me. I realy am scared any time I go near a buff I know that you ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
And I owe you much more deaths that you to me!!! lol...But what I was saying is that 5 Kills per sortie is...not realistic. Again a big <S>
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-03-2000).]
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banana-
I guess I do have a bit of a 'tude when it comes to buff gunnin, but it was picked up from alot of pilots telling me they would have left me bomber alone if they had known it was me.
RAM-
thankee
I'm not upset with you.
On the range of the .50s, the should be lethal out to 1600yds, if the gunner can hit out that far and has enough ammo to get enough hits (dispersion). Since version .45 or so it's been a waste to fire at a target beyond 1200yds (1.2k). Sometimes I'll give a quick burst because it can be enough to make someone back off and rethink thier attack line. This very handy if you need to get to the norden and make a quick drop or if there are are two bandits setting up on you.
I still say the .50s are porked.