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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 12:52:43 PM

Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 12:52:43 PM
Is it true that US Army (or was it Marines?...) are fortifying their positions aroung Fallujah and don't let civilian refugees leave the city?

For me it's a biggest contrast with the Russian operation in Grozniy. Russian Army have encircled the city fortified by terrorists and have given two weeks for unarmed people to leave the city. After two weeks the assault have began, full scale, GH have posted the pictures of the result in a deleted thread.

If they don't let unarmed civilians leave the city - then what's their purpose? I fail every time I try to find sane motivations in this bloody Iraqi adventure... Do I miss something?

No offences, please, I understand that it's a War, but there are some things I can't understand and tolerate...
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: AKIron on April 10, 2004, 12:54:14 PM
They just wanna round 'em all up and slaughter 'em all like hogs. Isn't that what you're suggesting?
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 01:02:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
They just wanna round 'em all up and slaughter 'em all like hogs. Isn't that what you're suggesting?


It's what all Arabic press suggests.

I want to find the truth that's always somewhere in the middle. First of all I want to know if it is true that they don't let unarmed civilians out of the city. I hope it's another media lie.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: bullett308 on April 10, 2004, 01:24:25 PM
There were letting women and children out.
But when they tried to sneek the men out with the women and children some of the families refused to leave and turned back.
There choice im afraid.

This is something they should have thought of before they murderd those Americans and draggged there bodies thrue the streets then hung them from the bridge.

Payback Is a biotch:aok
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: SOB on April 10, 2004, 01:28:48 PM
Well, we're not bloodthirsty warmongers, and we're not interested in seeing civilians killed.  If you believe that, then there's really no question.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 01:39:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by bullett308
There were letting women and children out.
But when they tried to sneek the men out with the women and children some of the families refused to leave and turned back.
There choice im afraid.

This is something they should have thought of before they murderd those Americans and draggged there bodies thrue the streets then hung them from the bridge.

Payback Is a biotch:aok


In Grozniy every civilian that came out unarmed was let to leave the city. American way is more "practical", but not very humane.

In Grozniy they not only "murderd and draggged there bodies thrue the streets" - they slaughtered, raped and robbed thousands of Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Kazakhs, etc. Anyway, every person, regardless to sex and age, was let out of the city if he came unarmed.

The difference is that there were some ethnic Russians/Ukrainians/Jews in Grozniy in 1999, and Russian Army was responsible for their lives, just like for the lives of Chechens who didn't support terrorists - they are all citizens of Russian Federation.

Thank you for the explaination. Our media didn't tell that women and children refused to leave without their husbands/fathers.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Nilsen on April 10, 2004, 01:45:36 PM
(http://www.spymac.com/gallery/pics/smilies/arrow_left.gif)
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 01:46:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Well, we're not bloodthirsty warmongers, and we're not interested in seeing civilians killed.  If you believe that, then there's really no question.


Looks like most of the Westerners believe that Russians are "bloodthirsty warmongers"... But now, please, look and compare - what our Army did in Grozniy, and what your Marines do in Fallujah how. Again: Russians waited for two weeks to let all the unarmed civilians out of the city... And untill that moment we didn't start artillery bombardment, not speaking of cluster bombs on inhabited blocks.

I understand that Americans are civilized people, I understand that it's a War, but there are some things I can't understand and tolerate.

Grunherz have posted the pictures of Grozniy. We made sure that there is only enemy left there. If the enemy doesn't surrender - it must be destroyed. Are you sure that unarmed men with their families who want to get out of the cluster-bombing hell are your enemies?...
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 01:49:24 PM
Nilsen, I hope it's not that bad.

I only express my surprisement (is it a right word?) for what goes on, and want to get a picture from the American side, that I probably don't see in Russian media.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: SOB on April 10, 2004, 01:50:03 PM
Save the speech, I really don't care, and I'm not interested in judging what Russia does.  Feel free to condemn the US and think the worst about whatever we do, though.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Nilsen on April 10, 2004, 01:50:25 PM
most of the westerners does not think that Boroda.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 01:56:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Save the speech, I really don't care, and I'm not interested in judging what Russia does.  Feel free to condemn the US and think the worst about whatever we do, though.


Don't you think I can feel offended when Toad and Grunherz call my nation "savages" and "bloody barbarians that came from the East" for an obvious humanitarian solution in Chechnya, when your brave armed forces keep civilians from leaving the combat zone and spray them like roaches with antipersonell cluster bombs?!

Is every male Iraqi age 14-65 a "possible partisan"? Sounds familiar :mad:
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 01:57:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen10
most of the westerners does not think that Boroda.


Sorry, I didn't understand... Do not think what? :confused:
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: SOB on April 10, 2004, 01:59:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
...when your brave armed forces keep civilians from leaving the combat zone and spray them like roaches with antipersonell cluster bombs?!

You see, this is the part that makes me not really give a poop about how you feel or what you think.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Nilsen on April 10, 2004, 01:59:32 PM
Boroda:

that... "Westerners believe that Russians are "bloodthirsty warmongers"

:)
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 10, 2004, 02:14:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
You see, this is the part that makes me not really give a poop about how you feel or what you think.


I can afford a little exaggeration, especially to make you reply on my posts :)

Please tell me how do you feel about cluster bombs being dropped onto inhabited apartment blocks? "Bomb them to stone age"? Did that Iraqui women and children invite you there? Did "evil dictator Saddam" use cluster bombs against people of Fallujah?
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Batz on April 10, 2004, 02:16:52 PM
Boroda,

I can fill 1000 post with documented instances of Russian mistreatment of Chechens.

Front page of Human Right Watch (http://www.hrw.org/) has this article Russia: Conditions in Chechnya and Ingushetia Deteriorate (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/08/russia8415.htm) on abuses.

RUSSIA/CHECHNYA CIVILIAN KILLINGS IN STAROPROMYSLOVSKI DISTRICT OF GROZNY (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/russia_chechnya/)

Russian Ultimatum to Grozny Condemned Attacks on Fleeing Civilians Continue  (http://www.hrw.org/press/1999/dec/chech1208.htm)

This is why folks like Toad and Grünherz dont take your claims ver seriously. I wont go into Katyn again but even your govewrnment admits yet you still refuse to believe it. Its a true case of a pot calling the kettle black.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Estel on April 10, 2004, 02:40:06 PM
Batz, where was HRW when mudzhaheddins in Chechnia were killing all non-islamic and non-chechen people? Were was HRW when mudzhaheddins took hostages in Buddenovsk? When they rides in Dagestan? When they cutted heads of british engineers and russian pastor? When they were killing people in border regions, such as Ingushetia? Were was HRW that time? Do you know how much russians were killed there by chechen bandits? That people were killed only because they wanted to live like normal people. To work. To grow their children. Not to plunder or stole. They just wanted to have normal life. This was only reason to kill them. I was in Groznyj in 1986. It was a very nice city. Chechens called it "Garden-city". There were a lot of gardens. Very clean. And I saw what did chechens do with that city themself.... A big trash can. Thousands of old men, who can't leave Chechnya became hostages in their own homes. Their welfare went directly to Dudaev's weapon managers. To buy weapon. Yes. Because only weapon could keep authority in bandit hands. Do you know, how many children and old men dyed there because of Dudaev fully destroed medical and educational system? He closed schools and hospitals because he was nessesary of money. Money from RF. The "Garden-City" became a "Hell-City". Nobody non-chechen can leave his home without risk to be murdered by their chechen neighbors. Chechens expelled people from their houses. If people were very lucky they stayed alive after that. If not..... Maybe sometimes their wreckages will be found.

Were was HRW that time?
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Nilsen on April 10, 2004, 02:45:07 PM
anyone notice all the pretty flowers in the spring?

they smell nice too :)
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Batz on April 10, 2004, 02:52:16 PM
I don't defend the Chechens nor am I a member of HRW.

So your questions are irrelevant to me. Both you and Boroda paint a picture of evil American occupiers abusing and killing innocent Iraqis. Boroda then goes into how well the Russians treated civilians in Grozny. Yet there's a whole host of credible sources that dispute what he is saying.

You both claim the western governments control access to information and distort the truth. However, it’s clear to anyone, no matter where they are from, who it is that is doing the distorting.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Nilsen on April 10, 2004, 02:53:35 PM
daffodills are very pretty and common these days :)
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 11, 2004, 12:08:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
I don't defend the Chechens nor am I a member of HRW.

So your questions are irrelevant to me. Both you and Boroda paint a picture of evil American occupiers abusing and killing innocent Iraqis. Boroda then goes into how well the Russians treated civilians in Grozny. Yet there's a whole host of credible sources that dispute what he is saying.


I am not going to picture what our Army have done in Chechnya in white and pink colours. We have a WAR, and we wage war against people who blow up apartment homes in Moscow. There was a chance that MY house could be blown up in 1999.

Noone invited Americans to Iraq.

Just imagine that someone starts dropping cluster-bombs onto your neighbourhood.


Quote
Originally posted by Batz

You both cl
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
aim the western governments control access to information and distort the truth. However, it’s clear to anyone, no matter where they are from, who it is that is doing the distorting.


Any government, any time, controls acces to information and distorts the truth.

The Iraqi case is the most obvious thing that can show you the above-nebtioned things.

It's another, modern, shown-on-tv wholesale Song Mi.

I want to see a person who ordered a cluster-bombing of Fallujah. I want him under court martial. Call me a savage, a barbarian, whatever you like. This is my understanding of justice.

I doubt that we'll see any American military criminals under trial.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Rino on April 11, 2004, 12:37:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
I am not going to picture what our Army have done in Chechnya in white and pink colours. We have a WAR, and we wage war against people who blow up apartment homes in Moscow. There was a chance that MY house could be blown up in 1999.

Noone invited Americans to Iraq.

Just imagine that someone starts dropping cluster-bombs onto your neighbourhood.


 

Any government, any time, controls acces to information and distorts the truth.

The Iraqi case is the most obvious thing that can show you the above-nebtioned things.

It's another, modern, shown-on-tv wholesale Song Mi.

I want to see a person who ordered a cluster-bombing of Fallujah. I want him under court martial. Call me a savage, a barbarian, whatever you like. This is my understanding of justice.

I doubt that we'll see any American military criminals under trial.


     Good thing the world doesn't answer to morons then I guess.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Boroda on April 11, 2004, 12:42:47 PM
FU.

Thanks.

Dismissed.
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: Nilsen on April 11, 2004, 01:00:58 PM
calm down....shake hands and enjoy easter :)
Title: Civilian refugees
Post by: hawker238 on April 11, 2004, 06:04:41 PM
Back to what's really important: getting laid.

edit - ignore this, I'm trying to keep things light