Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Rafe35 on April 11, 2004, 12:49:33 AM
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USAAF B-29 Co-Pilot: Fred Olivi (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Midwest/04/10/obit.olivi.ap/index.html)
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One from the old school. Back in the days when sacrifice was a reverred national trait.
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It saved AMERICAN lives !
I dont really agree with dropping on civillian targets though.
Exept Falluja
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Goes both ways, what if it had been the japanese that dropped it on us?
They did countless horrible things as did we, its all in the past and it was all war.
IMHO we should move on, never forget, but move on.
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There, unpoliticized. But a thread like this is inherently political, especially today...
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Originally posted by MaddDog
Goes both ways, what if it had been the japanese that dropped it on us?
From what I read, they were experimenting with chemical weapons. They devised a way to deliver them by sending them off in balloons, the winds would carry the balloons to the west coast. I believe one of these experimental balloons actually made it to the west coast, but I do not believe it contained a weapon.
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Nefarious, you are sick. This is not the place for your liberalist propoganda.
The best thing we can do is think about the contribution Lt Col Olivi made to the U.S.
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rgr, i heard bout that Sixpence, they develpoed tons of projects like that with chemical and biological weapons.
Also i believe ur right, i think afew of those balloons made it to the west coast, but i dont think any caused real damage.
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Those Pictures were posted after Grunherz comments about "Poor Japanese Freedom Fighters" I just wanted to show him how poor they really are.
Like I said Above, The Atomic bombs played an important part in Ending the War In Japan, No doubt about it. But the targets picked were in based on a Judgement that I beleive was wrong.
I Salute Lt Col Olivi for his actions on August 9th 1945 and for his entire service in WW2.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
From what I read, they were experimenting with chemical weapons. They devised a way to deliver them by sending them off in balloons, the winds would carry the balloons to the west coast. I believe one of these experimental balloons actually made it to the west coast, but I do not believe it contained a weapon.
One did make it to the west coast, and, in fact, caused causilties when a group of kids found the incindiery payload and started messing with it. Five kids where killed in the explosion.
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Nefaioous why don't you show pictures of Nanchang? Any others from the Japanese invasion of China. How about the Bataan operation? The "experimentation" on POW's by their benevolent captors, the execution of POW Doolittle Raiders?
I suppose they were all OK since it didn't involve the use of a nuclear device. :rolleyes:
to all the crew in BOCKSCAR and ENOLA GAY. The war was ended faster and with less casualties than if an invasion had been attempted.
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The war was ended faster and with less casualties than if an invasion had been attempted.
Bingo.
Plus it made a really big bang. Quite effective if you ask me.
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it saved countless civilian and military casualties. The japs were gonna fight it out to the last man woman and child... the jap command had no compunction about telling civilians to commitg suicide when the Americans came or in having them attack soldiers with sticks or suicide planes.
More civilians were killed by "normal" firebombing.... guess we coulda kept that up and then invaded... Is it better to be scorched to death? The targets for the bombs were chosen because they had not been firebombed yet... we wanted us and the world to see how effective these bombs were.
We owe a great debt to the people who worked on and delivered those bombs and so do the japs.
lazs
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It's sad because we're losing the last of the Great Generation. These men and women who served in WW2 grew up in the Depression and then faced the horrors of war. All of that generation served too- actors, ballplayers, everyone- and those who stayed at home sacrificed greatly for the war effort. And the entire generation did it without complaint because it was the RIGHT THING to do.
What a wonderful, wonderful generation and how sad we'll never have another like it again.
RIP, Col. Olivi, and thank you.
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dropping those bombs saved japanese lives too, probably more than american lives. since they had already tested chemical and bio weapons on allied pows and used them in china, the allies were well the geneva accords to retaliate with those weapons. the U.S. was going to invade one of their home islands and the plan was to use gas to prepare it for invasion. i dont think the japanese had enough gasmasks for their military let alone the civilians.
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Airhead,
They didn't ALL disappear. There are still some like that here today. They just don't get the recognition that the whiners and apologists do currently.
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Miko posted the below a while back but its relevant to the current discussion. Not everyone thought or believed dropping the bomb on Japan was necessary or in fact saved lives.
60 years rationalization and justification aside, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in addition to the fire bombings of other Japanese cities is nothing the US should celebrate or take pride in.
The targeting of civilians as a policy of war was and is wrong.
Before the flag wavers start crying "hindsight" as you can see the below is hardly hindsight.
As for those who would cry "they deserved it" well look at Nafari’s pictures and tell those women and children they deserved it.
Admiral William D. Leahy – 5 star admiral, president of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff and the combined American-British Chiefs of Staff, and chief of staff to the commander-in-chief of the army and navy from 1942–1945 (Roosevelt) and 1945–1949 (Truman):
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . . My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted the ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."
Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, quoted by his widow:
". . . I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life. . . . We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything." And – E. B. Potter, naval historian wrote: "Nimitz considered the atomic bomb somehow indecent, certainly not a legitimate form of warfare."
Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, commander of the Third Fleet:
"The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake ever to drop it . . . (the scientists) had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before."
Rear Admiral Richard Byrd:
"Especially it is good to see the truth told about the last days of the war with Japan. . . . I was with the Fleet during that period; and every officer in the Fleet knew that Japan would eventually capitulate from . . . the tight blockade."
Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy:
"I, too, felt strongly that it was a mistake to drop the atom bombs, especially without warning." [The atomic bomb] "was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion . . . it was clear to a number of people . . . that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate . . . it was a sin – to use a good word – [a word that] should be used more often – to kill non-combatants. . . ."
Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945):
"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb . . . the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."
Major General Claire Chennault, founder of the Flying Tigers, and former US Army Air Forces commander in China:
"Russia's entry into the Japanese war was the decisive factor in speeding its end and would have been so even if no atomic bombs had been dropped..."
Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces:
". . . [F]rom the Japanese standpoint the atomic bomb was really a way out. The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell. . . ."
Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, Arnold's deputy:
"Arnold's view was that it (dropping the atomic bomb) was unnecessary. He said that he knew that the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it. . . . I knew nobody in the high echelons of the Army Air Force who had any question about having to invade Japan."
Arnold, quoted by Eaker:
"When the question comes up of whether we use the atomic bomb or not, my view is that the Air Force will not oppose the use of the bomb, and they will deliver it effectively if the Commander in Chief decides to use it. But it is not necessary to use it in order to conquer the Japanese without the necessity of a land invasion."
General George C. Kenney, commander of Army Air Force units in the Southwest Pacific, when asked whether using the atomic bomb had been a wise decision:
"No! I think we had the Japs licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit."
W. Averill Harriman, in private notes after a dinner with General Carl "Tooey" Spaatz (commander in July 1945 of the Pacific-based US Army Strategic Air Forces), and Spaatz's one-time deputy commanding general in Europe, Frederick L. Anderson:
"...Both felt Japan would surrender without use of the bomb, and neither knew why a second bomb was used."
General Dwight D. Eisenhower:
"I voiced to him [Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson] my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was at that very moment seeking some way to surrender with a minimum of loss of 'face'. . . . It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
former President Herbert Hoover:
"I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."
Richard M. Nixon:
"MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about it. . . . He thought it a tragedy that the Bomb was ever exploded. MacArthur believed that the same restrictions ought to apply to atomic weapons as to conventional weapons, that the military objective should always be to limit damage to noncombatants. . . . MacArthur, you see, was a soldier. He believed in using force only against military targets, and that is why the nuclear thing turned him off, which I think speaks well of him.
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Also, I believe there are some POW Americans and other country as well, possible got killed by A-Bomb (I think, but not sure).
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Originally posted by Rafe35
Also, I believe there are some POW Americans and other country as well, possible got killed by A-Bomb (I think, but not sure).
It is a sad truth :(
Truman wanted to show his power to Stalin. He succeeded. 150000 human lives were not a problem to him.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
From what I read, they were experimenting with chemical weapons. They devised a way to deliver them by sending them off in balloons, the winds would carry the balloons to the west coast. I believe one of these experimental balloons actually made it to the west coast, but I do not believe it contained a weapon.
not sure about chemical payloads, but the incendiary balloons where sent and a few hit.
there is a display on them in the ww2 museum @ a fort on the coast here (the name escapes me at the moment. clatsop maybe?)
If I remember correctly, one went as far as Minnesota. they just drifted east on the winds and a timer would release incendiary bombs.
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Atomic weapons are not generals best friend .
I mean what the use of tactics when u have atomic weapons.
Strangely Mr. Gnrl Mc Arthur wanted to use em in korea
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Atomic weapons are not generals best friend .
I mean what the use of tactics when u have atomic weapons.
Strangely Mr. Gnrl Mc Arthur wanted to use em in korea
Yeah, General Douglas McArthur want to drop Atomic Bomb over Pyongyang and close to China where United Nation win the war over North Korean, but Im afraid that President Harry Turman remove him/fired him.
I wonder What If they did drop Atomic Bomb over Korea?
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It is a sad truth
for stalin 150000 deaths is just statistics
he was sure not one angel either
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
not sure about chemical payloads, but the incendiary balloons where sent and a few hit.
Actually, it was something I saw on the history channel. They had a secret base in China and they used to use the chinese in the experiments. They would use the chemicals and dissect them right where they lay dead, it was pretty gruesome. There was a name for this base but it escapes me. The balloons were the way they were thinking of delivering them.
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More civilians were killed by "normal" firebombing
But their children wouldn't die at increased rates of leukaemia for example. When they dropped the bomb they had no clue what was going to happen - it was a field test. The second drop was totally unnecessary in terms of ending the war. I thank god that weapon was never used again!
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Originally posted by Kirin
But their children wouldn't die at increased rates of leukaemia for example. When they dropped the bomb they had no clue what was going to happen - it was a field test. The second drop was totally unnecessary in terms of ending the war. I thank god that weapon was never used again!
it was used again in tests on U.S. troops.
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Originally posted by Batz
Miko posted the below a while back but its relevant to the current discussion. Not everyone thought or believed dropping the bomb on Japan was necessary or in fact saved lives.
60 years rationalization and justification aside, the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in addition to the fire bombings of other Japanese cities is nothing the US should celebrate or take pride in.
The targeting of civilians as a policy of war was and is wrong.
Before the flag wavers start crying "hindsight" as you can see the below is hardly hindsight.
As for those who would cry "they deserved it" well look at Nafari’s pictures and tell those women and children they deserved it.
Admiral William D. Leahy – 5 star admiral, president of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff and the combined American-British Chiefs of Staff, and chief of staff to the commander-in-chief of the army and navy from 1942–1945 (Roosevelt) and 1945–1949 (Truman):
Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, quoted by his widow:
Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, commander of the Third Fleet:
Rear Admiral Richard Byrd:
Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy:
Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945):
Major General Claire Chennault, founder of the Flying Tigers, and former US Army Air Forces commander in China:
Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces:
Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, Arnold's deputy:
Arnold, quoted by Eaker:
General George C. Kenney, commander of Army Air Force units in the Southwest Pacific, when asked whether using the atomic bomb had been a wise decision:
W. Averill Harriman, in private notes after a dinner with General Carl "Tooey" Spaatz (commander in July 1945 of the Pacific-based US Army Strategic Air Forces), and Spaatz's one-time deputy commanding general in Europe, Frederick L. Anderson:
General Dwight D. Eisenhower:
former President Herbert Hoover:
Richard M. Nixon:
What are dates of those quotes? Were any of them recorded before the end of the war? Hindsight is a wonderful thing for moralizing... Otherwise you are saying that every one pf those men was eagerly awaiting for the start of the invasion of Japan in November, and it was clear from Okinawa, Iwo, saipan and all the other what sort of welcome, at minimum, the men under their command, the men whose lives they were respobsible for, would recieve...
Also be a sweetie and show us the qoutes of the Japanese Military officers who ran the country in 1945....
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well... I have never been much for bombing civilians but it was the accepted practice back then by all countries involved..
Now.. them generals and such... they all participated and they all watched the firebombing. If they didn't speoak out against the much more deadly conventional (more casualties) bombing then I would have to say that each and every one of em was just big fat ol hipocrites.
My take is that if any bombing of civilians had a purpose that was good then it would be the A bomb and only the A bomb. It could be argued that the millions killed by conventional bombing served no purpose at all (except maybe to slaughter the LW) but only strengthened the resolve of the people bombed while the A bomb achived it's end quickly and with much fewer civilian casualties.
but, as I said... I am against civilian bombing... course if you have a country where every civilian is considered a soldier... things get a little fuzzy..
lazs
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No offense to you BATZ, but I called a BIG BS on that post before, i'll call it again on those quotes.
They're all false / made up.
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I have never replied to any of your posts lasersailor184. After reading many of your replies that are full of ridiculously inaccurate comments such as the quote below (made on 02-05-2004) coupled with your well researched and articulate reply above this will be the only reply you will get from me.
I know the Germans gave the P47 the nickname "Jabo" (forget the rest of it and what it means) because they hate it.
This topic was covered in this thread:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106676
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And I'll post the quotes I put up in Miko's thread
BTW, Col. Olvi
Mitsuo Fuchida, IJN Pilot who led the Pearl Harbor attacks, told Paul Tibbets
"You did the right thing. You know the Japanese attitude at that time, how fanatic they were, they'd die for the Emperor...Every man, woman, and child would have resisted that invasion with sticks and stones if necessary...Can you imagine what a slaughter it would be to invade Japan? It would have been terrible. The Japanese people know more about that than the American public will ever know."
Secretary of State James Byrnes
(the atom bombs did not cause) "Nearly so many deaths as there would have been had our air force continued to drop incendiary bombs on Japan's cities"
NOTE: In March 1945, Curtis had dropped 13,800 tons of incindairy bombs on Japan, he had planned for more than 115,000 by September
"Evacuate Now!"
Message on leaflets dropped on Hiroshima on August 4th
Curtis LeMay
"Hiroshima brought no instantaneous prostration of the Japanese military. We were still piling on the incendiearies. Our B-29's went to Yawata on August 8th, and burned up 21% of the town, and on the same day some other 29's went to Fukuyama and burned up 73.3%. Still there wasn't any gasp and collapse when the second nuclear bomb went down above Nagasaki on August 9th. We kept on flying."
William Manchester, Marine veteran and historian
"You think of the lives which would have been lost in an invasion of Japan's home islands - a staggering number of Americans but millions more of Japanese - and you thank God for the atomic bomb."
U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey
"The atomic bomb at Hiroshima was the equivalent of 220 fully loaded B-29's. Accordingly, a single atomic explosion represented no oder-of-magnitude increase in destructiveness over a conventional air raid."
General Yoshijiro Umezu, on August 10th, after the Nagasaki raid
"With luck, we will repulse the invaders before they land."
General Anami, refering to the Potsdam Proclamation, on August 10th
"Who can be 100% sure of defeat? We certainly can't swallow this proclamation."
Paul Fussell, WW2 veteran
"The degree to which Americans register shock and extraordinary shame about the Hiroshima bomb correlates closely with lack of information about the Pacific War."
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Sorry Batz, I was mistaken in that post. However, the book I read it from did say that.
But i'm not kidding about those quotes.