Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gixer on April 11, 2004, 08:21:40 PM
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Suprising to hear that they are getting kills on such advanced equipment. Saw the M1 burning on the news, wondering how they managed to accomplish that given it's armour.
Same goes for the AH-64 saying it was shot down, anyone know what with? As I understood the whole Apache can withstand small calibre hits and most criticle parts can withstand upto 20mm though I doubt that would include AP rounds.
Anyway long time since I've studied Apaches since unfortunetly their not something I get to fly.
...-Gixer
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Well the Apache was hit by a MANPAD...
The Abrams side and rear armor are vulnerable to a well placed RPG hit. Plus its likely the crew would set on fire any disabled and unrecoverable vehicle as to prevent it from getting into enemy hands.
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I hear the sand is very fine in the Iraqi desert, i'm surprised the equipment does so well in those conditions.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well the Apache was hit by a MANPAD...
The Abrams side and rear armor are vulnerable to a well placed RPG hit. Plus its likely the crew would set on fire any disabled and unrecoverable vehicle as to prevent it from getting into enemy hands.
Cheers thanks for that. Still must of been an exceptional RPG hit, those things are everywhere I guess.
...-Gixer
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You know, you could have just typed "I think there is equipment coming in from somewhere else" instead.
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maybe that was not what he was thinking Saurdaukar, i was not.
However i would think that Iraq now is a good market for rouge arms dealers and getting the "guns" over the borders hould be simple enough.... only the roads would be guarded all the time.
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Clearly, the Iraqis have obtained Ostwinds.
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My bet on the M1:
Probably a mobility kill, then the crew torched the tank when leaving it.
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omc funked...i think so too :eek:
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Originally posted by Hortlund
My bet on the M1:
Probably a mobility kill, then the crew torched the tank when leaving it.
No way a crew would torch a tank after a mobility kill in a controlled area.
The M1A1 is a monster, an unstopable beast. A flaming M1 would boost the morality of its attackers.
A lucky hit+the law of Murphy is more likely.
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Well, all the M1 combat losses in Gulf war 2 were mobility kills + crew/blue destruction.
Besides, there are several ways to destroy the tank if the crew has had to abandon it. Another M1 could put a sabot in it, or an aircraft can drop a bomb on it.
There is no weapon in the terrorist arsenal that would turn a M1 into a flaming wreck. There are several ways to get a mobility kill, for example a mine or a lucky RPG-shot.
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The iraqis can with a lucky shot penetrate the rear armour of an M1 and destroy the engine.....dont know about any terrorist tho.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
The iraqis can with a lucky shot penetrate the rear armour of an M1 and destroy the engine.
What weapon did you have in mind?
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If your talking about the Marine M-1 that was on the news the other day.... they did not destroy the tank.
The tank got hit by what a reporter said was an RPG, but who knows if that was accurate. The crew drove the tank back to friendly forces, a small fire (a duffel bag stowed on the outside of the turret was burning) was present on the exterior of the tank, and parked the tank with friendly forces.
The crew exited the tank, with three of the crewmen wounded (one broken arm, and the other two had shrapnel wounds, one with a serious face/eye wound). The Tank was not disabled and brought its crew home alive.
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I think I saw the same news clip. The M1 was not flaming. A small fire appeared to be brewing on the right rear of the turret. The crew was bailing out wounded. The clip shows, I think, the gunner climbing out with what appears to be a serious wound to the arm. The driver appeared more seriously wounded as he bailed out (i.e., collapsing on the deck of the vehicle). The vehicle was still mobile in the clips that I saw.
My guess is a partial penetration which resulted in some fragments or spalling internally. The fire seemed to be localized and may have been the crew's kit burning externally. Either way, I bet the vehicle itself could be back in action fairly quickly.
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This is going to sound like a war story, but I read it in Army Times. An M1 last year was hit by some type of needle-like round that entered the side of the tank, broke the gunners chair, and exited the other side of the tank.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
This is going to sound like a war story, but I read it in Army Times. An M1 last year was hit by some type of needle-like round that entered the side of the tank, broke the gunners chair, and exited the other side of the tank.
Pictures of it were posted here at one time.. Was very strange looking indeed.. The weapon was not your everday .22 magnum for sure..
dude
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sounds like some sort of sabot
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Look folks, please try to understand this.
THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS AN INVULNERABLE TANK / HELICOPTER.
The M1, in all it's varients is an extremely capable and survivable tank but it is not invulnerable. The armor is designed to defeat as much as possible whatever is fired at it but it can be penetrated, escpecially from the top, bottom, sides and rear by explosive and kinetic energy weapons. That is specifically why they placed the ammo rack behid a blast door and had blow out panels in the turret over the ammo storage area.
An RPG CAN make a mobility hit on the tank and then make the tank subjetct to more severe attacks by keeping it stuck in one area. The RPG can penetrate the sides of the tank hull and the crew injured from spalling and shrapnell inside the crew compartment. An urban combat environment is extremely hazardous for armored vehicles due to the proximity of enemy gunners and antitank weapons not to mention flanking shots from hide positions. That is one of the reasons that armor does NOT fight alone but is used in a combined arms operation so that each part of the team is supported by the other.
The same goes for the Apache. The running gear was designed to take 20mm hits and continue to work. Take a look at the size differential between a 20mm and a rpg. There is quite a bit more power in the rpg. Remember the experiance in Somalia, given enough rpg rounds launched, someone is going to take a hit that will take down the helicopter. Since the helo's have to support in a close combat environment (urban combat), that places them in reach of the manpads and rpg's that the enemy has.
It isn't a failure of the equipment, it's a failure of the understanding of the limitations of the equipment that leads to news stories complaining about losses of the vehicles. When you put combat equipment into a very hostile environment, particularly one that does not allow the crews to exploit their strengths, there will be losses. Period.
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Your wrong. If you made a tank completely out of diamonds it would be indestructable.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Your wrong. If you made a tank completely out of diamonds it would be indestructable.
And real purty too...
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Your wrong. If you made a tank completely out of diamonds it would be indestructable.
One good hit and the diamond tank would break in two and you'd have half the worlds mercenaries after your arse :D
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Originally posted by SunTracker
Your wrong. If you made a tank completely out of diamonds it would be indestructable.
You are joking right? You do know that diamonds, while hard - like glass and porcelin are hard, are very very brittle and that you can easily crush a diamond...
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diamonds , lol that thingy burn easy , very easy , like 1100 Celsium, do not forget is it a CARBON nothing alse:)
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DAYUMMM suntracker you got some action on that hook!
<-- opening hook pliers and novocaine concession. Each for $15.00! Get them now before rust sets in!
If you wait till then, the do it yourself tetanus shots will be going for $50.00!!!!
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Originally posted by Hortlund
There is no weapon in the terrorist arsenal that would turn a M1 into a flaming wreck. There are several ways to get a mobility kill, for example a mine or a lucky RPG-shot.
That is just plain wrong Hortlund. An RPG-7 fired onto the engine deck of an Abrams, can and will destroy the Abrams. The crew will survive, but the engine compartment and fuel WILL burn, ultimately consuming the vehicle if the fire surpression system is punctured which is almost guarateed in that scenario.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
That is just plain wrong Hortlund. An RPG-7 fired onto the engine deck of an Abrams, can and will destroy the Abrams. The crew will survive, but the engine compartment and fuel WILL burn, ultimately consuming the vehicle if the fire surpression system is punctured which is almost guarateed in that scenario.
hence, the fire suppression system...
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yup Bodhi... it could do that. Im guessing it wont be long before one would have to design tanks/apc's with more/equal armour on the sides and back even tho they will get extremly heavy. Maybe they will figure out some type of new "plastic/composit" armour.. they are working on consepts.
The use of amored vechicles in buildt up areas and roads with some sort of cover on either side is naturally increasing because of the decrease in regular tank battles where the oponents face eachother in open terrain. Designers must take this into consideration.
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Grun...
have they figured out what kind of manpad that hit the apache?
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Make the tanks out of deleted uranium. Or dilithium crystals.
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its coming.... the new generation....
(http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/images/lightning_guardian.jpg)
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Originally posted by Bodhi
That is just plain wrong Hortlund. An RPG-7 fired onto the engine deck of an Abrams, can and will destroy the Abrams. The crew will survive, but the engine compartment and fuel WILL burn, ultimately consuming the vehicle if the fire surpression system is punctured which is almost guarateed in that scenario.
An RPG fired at the engine deck taking out the engine is a mobility kill.
"Puncturing the fire surpression system" indeed...it would be interesting to know what kind of mental picture you have of the M1 fire surpression system...one big hose laying on the floor in the tank perhaps? And if its punctured, then there will be water on the floor?
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Hortlund,
The fire suppression system is pressurized HALON, not water. You do not want to put water on either an electrical or petroleum fire.
The fuel system is also in the rear of the vehicle. Placing it there, away from the crew compartment is part of the survivability design of the tank.
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Originally posted by OIO
its coming.... the new generation....
(http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/images/lightning_guardian.jpg)
VOLTRON!!!
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Lemme get this straight. Unbuttoned Abrams crew wounded by lucky RPG shot = Total dominance of WP weapons over NATO weapons?
LOL @ Westy et al.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Lemme get this straight. Unbuttoned Abrams crew wounded by lucky RPG shot = Total dominance of WP weapons over NATO weapons?
LOL @ Westy et al.
In the clip I saw the crew was not unbuttoned. However, they may have been unbutoned, got hit, buttoned up to get out of Dodge, then the camera crew arrived to show them unbuttoning.
The driver was climbing out wounded in the clip I saw, and the right rear of the turret was burning, suggesting to me a hit on the right rear. If that's the case, even if unbuttoned when hit, how was the driver hit sitting in front?
(Unless turret was traversed to the left when hit)
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I didn't see the whole clip, but in the article I read, they said it was the loader, gunner, and t/c who were wounded, not the driver.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I didn't see the whole clip, but in the article I read, they said it was the loader, gunner, and t/c who were wounded, not the driver.
Could be. Loader and t/c I could understand getting wounded when being unbuttoned. But not the gunner (I don't recall the M1 having a seperate hatch for the gunner).
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I think you're right, gunner could only get hit if there was some penetration or fragments coming in through one of the hatches.
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Gunner does not have a seperate hatch. There are only 3 hatches topside. Driver, TC and loader. The gunner uses the TC hatch since he sits infront of and below the TC.
Funked, since fragments tend to zing around the inside until stopped by something, all members of the turret crew are in danger of being hit.