Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Adogg on April 13, 2004, 08:55:24 AM
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Had a suprisingly good time in an A20 yesterday over a field with a porked FH.
Upped the A20 (Havoc) fully expecting to be perforated in minutes. Nope. Nailed 7 kills - died lots too but my god you can scare the bejesus out of a 109 or P51 as they chase down another defender.
None of the "ping" "ping" nonsense you get with other light bombers. Holy smokes 5 nose mounted 50 cals make one heck of a mess. The Havoc is now my favourite "goof-off" bird.
A-20 I salute you
Anyone else have a story like this - doggin it up in a plane that perhaps shouldn't but just stunned the NME into silence at the sheer audacity?
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I tend to rip the wings off the A-20, so I use the B-26 for my low-alt dogfighting bomber runs. And if I get caught in a bad situation, I can always autopilot level and shoot out the back. :)
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hey adogg didnt i kill you like 4 times in a row yesturday in that a20?
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I think so - I can't remember if that was before or after the 7 kills either way I'm sure you did.
My K/D ratio is still in the 1/2 area so no big suprise there.
My point is it's kinda fun pulling that beast down on someone.
:)
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Originally posted by gofaster
I tend to rip the wings off the A-20, so I use the B-26 for my low-alt dogfighting bomber runs. And if I get caught in a bad situation, I can always autopilot level and shoot out the back. :)
And on the rare occasions when you can arrange for conveniently stupid enemies, making a formation pass with B-26s up a runway to vulch is a wonderful way to raise the hate level. Getting vulched by a bomber formation doing a strafing run sets new lows for SOL status.
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Originally posted by Adogg
Anyone else have a story like this - doggin it up in a plane that perhaps shouldn't but just stunned the NME into silence at the sheer audacity?
Well, the A-20 is a decent low-level fighter. It out-turns more than a few fighters, holds E fairly well, zoom climb is excellent, and nothing accelerates in a dive faster (right up until you rip off wings or control surfaces). Its six 50 cal. MGs (not 5) are tightly concentrated and very effective. Keep above 200 mph and below 350 mph, and it can hold its own very well. It will outrun Spits, F4Fs, Zeros, P-40s and Hurricanes on the deck. Able to reach just over 330 mph near sea level, even P-47s and F6Fs are hard pressed to gain on it. Moreso than fighters, the A-20 requires energy discipline to avoid over-speeding or wasting precious energy. This is not the aircraft for guys who rely on BnZ methods. You will break more A-20s than the enemy will shoot down if you don't limit your speed. With that in mind, it is my opinion that no other aircraft is better for developing energy management skills.
Level acceleration is unimpressive, so if get it slow you will find yourself wallowing around totally defensive. It's a very big target, making it easy to hit. On the other hand, it's very durable and can survive hits that would obliterate any fighter.
Finally, it's greatest attribute is the ability to fly from the F3 view. This provides unobstructed vision in all directions. Just jump back to the cockpit to shoot. In fact, with a little practice you can become very proficient shooting from the F3 view.
I've done very well with the A-20G this tour. Here's some simple rules for flying the Havoc as a fighter: Avoid gangbangs and prolonged turning fights with Spits and Nikis. Diving away is not a solution to trouble. Yes, you will open a gap initially, but if you exceed 425 mph you will rip off control surfaces and even a wing. So, meet every approaching enemy head-on if possible, face shoot them if they give you the opportunity. Otherwise, you can often beat them right off the merge as the A-20 can reverse a hellava lot faster than most could imagine.
Unless you have a gunner onboard, forget you have a dorsal turret, it's largely useless for clearing your six because the enemy can stay below the line of fire and the huge rudder blanks much of the field of fire. However, if you can get a gunner, do so. It's doubly frustrating for opponents trying to out-maneuver an A-20 while the gunner is firing away at them at every opportunity to boot. Because the A-20 zoom climbs very well, attacking the enemy from below is often successful. More often than not, they do not realize that you can zoom up as much as 3,000 feet for a shot and are usually caught flatfooted. Never take more than 50% fuel, with 25% being enough to fight as far out as a sector from your field. The lighter, the better. Since you must load bombs, dump them on the runway prior to takeoff. WEP is critical to performance, so do not waste it.
Finally, practice in the TA and DA until you feel comfortable and confident. Then go play in the MA. After flying the A-20 for a few days, switch to the Mosquito and it feels like jumping from a P-40 to a Spitfire.
For similar challange, try flying the SBD as a fighter for a few sorties. Initial turn is better than all but the Zero. However, it loses E in a hurry and is far too underpowered to regain it quickly. Guns are marginal, but at least as effective as the eight .303s in a Hurricane Mk.I, unless you get very, very close with the Hurri. I've killed B-17s with those two .50 cal. guns, but it's not enough power for effective snap-shooting. You can't run away from anything, so once in a fight, you will either win or lose, but escaping is not going to happen. Take the time to climb out to 8-10k. This will provide you with enough E to engage a lower aircraft with either greater or at least equal speed. Don't blow any opportunities, because once you get slow, you are an easy target for fast movers. Sure the SBD can turn tight, but at low speed the aspect barely changes, leaving you extremely vulnerable to snap shots.
My regards
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
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Finally, it's greatest attribute is the ability to fly from the F3 view. This provides unobstructed vision in all directions. Just jump back to the cockpit to shoot. In fact, with a little practice you can become very proficient shooting from the F3 view.
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This doesn't deserve more than a :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by deSelys
This doesn't deserve more than a :rolleyes:
I'll do ya one better by saying it deserves beeing looked at as a bug along with the dive bombing 17's
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It's not a bug, the F3 and F5 view are enabled on bombers to emulate the fact that the crew members are doing a lookout (although it is a bit unfair that the 1 rear gunner bombers like A20, Boston, Stuka, Il2... have it while the 110s and Mossie don't).
Using the F3 view as a way to increase the cockpit views while dogfighting is just another bad case of 'gaming the game'.
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Originally posted by Adogg
Anyone else have a story like this - doggin it up in a plane that perhaps shouldn't but just stunned the NME into silence at the sheer audacity?
last week was rtb in an A20 after a bombing run and was chased by an F4U with alt. I had just dove 8k into target and dropped all 8 eggs in one pass, so I was fast (just udnder 400kias) and maybe 5k. The F4U dove in, and I started a high yoyo when he was D1800, and he went nose up on the merge and was pullin' hard. I franticaly was tapin' my down flaps button, and we did a sorta vertical rolling scissor for a pass or 2 and I ended up stalling it out, tried a hammerhand, and that bird flipped it's nose down and there was the F4U under me to the side doing a low YoYo. I kept the A20 nose down, and simple rolled it so our vectors matched, pulled up and caught the F4u on his way back up. Your right, them nose mounted guns wreak havoc on your enemy's. He went boom and I rtb. He wasn't stunned to silence though, because he gave me a Ch1 and I landed my run.
A20's rock!
-Lute III/JG26 9ST WidowMakers
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F3 view is a bit of a weak link I agree.
I use it, but not in the fight.
F3 is more "fun" for watching the aircraft at low level skimming tree or wave tops while on long low level penetrations. :D
The cockpit views are where the real business takes place.
But if someone can shoot accurately in front of them (sans sight from a disadvantaged angle) while keeping a lookout for incoming bandits - all the more power to them that is a skill in its own right. :eek:
But to Widewing - thanks for the tips.
Maybe its time for an A-20 Fan Club?
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i learned the painful truth when i tryed to zoom up when a A20 was tailing about the same speed
iv used the A20 as a fighter but its so much less deadly then real fighters
but i still seem to kill alot of people with it
my first flight using it as a fighter was in the CT were i heard they were better pliots and i nailed over 4 kills in the A20 killing alot of 109s and landed
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Except for being a little slow, the A-20 is one of the best attack birds around. 4000 lbs ord, F3 view, 5x50s....
I love it...
Obviously! :-)
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I'll do ya one better by saying it deserves beeing looked at as a bug along with the dive bombing 17's
Bug?! LOLOLOL
A-20s are completely blind over more than 90 degrees to the rear. There's no way you can see anything behind you. Plus, A-20s flew with a three man crew. Having logged thousands of hours in multiplace military aircraft, I can tell you that crewmembers will be calling out enemy positions over the ICS. You would have 3 pairs of eyes and good understanding of your immediate environment. The F3 view is the only way to simulate that.
Moreover, if you think shooting from the F3 view is a bug, try it. I'll wager you hit absolutely nothing. It's something you do because changing positions will result in losing the snap shot. At least this way, you might hit the enemy. Remember, not only do you not have a gunsight, but you have a large twin-engine bomber blocking most of your forward vision. Don't even think about bombing from that view...
Aircraft with decent rear vision like the Bf 110 and Mosquito should not have the F3 option, and don't. However, you are absolutely blind in aircraft like the A-20, Boston, B-26 and so on. If you can fly and maneuver from that view, good for you. If you can't, learn.
If some guy gets his butt kicked by an A-20 it wasn't because the A-20 pilot was gaming the game, it was because he simply out-flew the guy with an inferior aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing
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I too am a fan of the A-20. It has a great bomb load for a medium bomber, is fast and I'll challenge anyone to HO me with those six 50s in the nose.
:aok
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I really wish we could trade the Boston formation for a true A-20 formation. Twice the payload plus 50s instead of 303s.
That being said, the Bostons are a great little bomber if used correctly. I know there are better planes in the game, but how embarrassing would it be to get shot down by .303s on the Boston tail gun?
Plus it's grrreat for perks.
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Bump!
A20 Buff Hunting (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1081667406_buffhuntinginthea20.ahf)
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Originally posted by 2stony
I too am a fan of the A-20. It has a great bomb load for a medium bomber
Or an amazing bombload for a heavy fighter.......
Give the A-20 it's missing gun position! (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58301)
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Originally posted by Widewing
[BFor similar challange, try flying the SBD as a fighter for a few sorties. Initial turn is better than all but the Zero. However, it loses E in a hurry and is far too underpowered to regain it quickly. Guns are marginal, but at least as effective as the eight .303s in a Hurricane Mk.I, unless you get very, very close with the Hurri. I've killed B-17s with those two .50 cal. guns, but it's not enough power for effective snap-shooting. You can't run away from anything, so once in a fight, you will either win or lose, but escaping is not going to happen. Take the time to climb out to 8-10k. This will provide you with enough E to engage a lower aircraft with either greater or at least equal speed. Don't blow any opportunities, because once you get slow, you are an easy target for fast movers. Sure the SBD can turn tight, but at low speed the aspect barely changes, leaving you extremely vulnerable to snap shots. [/B]
I've done some airfield defense in SBDs when the FHs have been knocked out. If you can avoid the vulching fighters and can get out of the central combat area to get alt, the SBD can really surprise heavy fighters coming in.
The SBD is one tough bird and can take some serious damage. The dive brake gives it a nice ability to force an overshoot, and twin .50s can take out an airplane if you can concentrate the stream on the target long enough. The SBD isn't fast by any stretch of the imagination, but it is fightable.
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Want havoc? Try the IL-2's 23MM cannons...they've got to be the fastest firing cannons on any plane and then tend to leave quite a mess of anything they hit. Once took down (blew up) a C.205 with a 1/2 second burst from those babies.
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Originally posted by 2stony
I too am a fan of the A-20. It has a great bomb load for a medium bomber, is fast and I'll challenge anyone to HO me with those six 50s in the nose.
:aok
You can do much more than just a defensive HO air to air with the A-20. You just need to make sure the fuel load is light (less than 50%).
It's rare that I get to play during the morning hours, but I had an opportunity today. I like the lower numbers and the general lack of lemming hordes. Rather than facing 15-20 enemy, I had to deal with 2 or 3, four at worst. In this environment, the A-20G can excel.
I was anxious to undo some of the damage my brother did flying on my account last night. He managed to lose as many aircraft in two hours as I had lost all tour. Although, he did kill 16 for his 12 deaths, pretty good for a raw noob. He lost an La-7 and a pair of 190A-8s trying to turnfight with Nikis and F6Fs... I asked that he not fly only a few types; the A-20 and all perk planes. I wanted to keep accurate numbers on the A-20 this tour. The rest were his to play with.
I flew just two A-20 sorties this morning, but landed 9 kills and two assists. La-7s, P-47s, B-17s and a Tiffie could be counted among those who were quite startled to find a twin-engine bomber beating their brains out. Anyone who underestimates the A-20G does so at their peril.
A typical example is an La-7 driver, who essentially Co-E with me, elected to try the rope-a-dope with me D1.2 behind. Bad idea as the A-20 zoom climbs like crazy. I suppose he was stunned to watch the distance drop to D.7 in a few seconds. I fired and scored well. He fell off on his left wing and the next burst pulverized the Lavochkin. Although he said nothing over channel 1, I'm sure he was baffled at what had just occurred. With experience, he may learn to judge E states better and avoid that situation.
It is quite common for players to execute a lazy loop to avoid the A-20. However, in most instances a Co-E A-20 will simply fly the loop, pull lead and shoot them out of it. Few fighters can pull off a looping reverse as tight as the A-20 can. Players would be far better off to split-s or make a diving reverse to take advantage of the A-20s slow roll rate and relatively low VnE (never exceed speed). You can use the A-20's remarkable dive acceleration against it. Once it zips up to 400 mph, any load over 4 G will break it. This is where you would reverse and gain the advantage of position, when you know the A-20 is groaning under the aero loading and just one mistake from tearing itself apart.
Unless you have a considerable E advantage, avoid situations where the A-20 driver can use the plane's awesome power-on zoom climb and/or super-tight power-off looping reverse to chop you down before you realize what just happened.
You can certainly hold your own fighting in an A-20, but they are not especially difficult to defeat if you:
A) Avoid fighting to the A-20's strengths.
B) Don't underestimate the Havoc's capabilities.
C) Don't run into a really skilled pilot who will get all there is to get from the A-20.
The A-20G can seriously abuse early-war fighters, like Hurricanes, A6M2 Zeros, F4Fs, P-40s and even the 109E and Spitfire Mk.I. This medium bomber is faster at low level, climbs well and is very durable. Later fighters, like 190s, F4Us and Typhoons should avoid trying to dogfight with Co-E A-20s. The Havoc will easily out-turn them. Better to dive away, extend and return with the advantage of speed and/or altitude. Turn fighters like the SpitV, SpitIX and N1K2 turn better, accelerate and climb faster. However, at 250-300 mph, the A-20 will hang on to them like glue. If the A-20 gets any kind of a shot, you will not likely survive it. Use your better roll rate to create poor angles, then use your turning ability to get behind. If you do not avoid the Havoc immediately, you will be dead as the A-20G is a terrific snap-shooter.
My regards,
Widewing
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a20 sucks these guys just want you to fly it to get easy kills. I personally would never fly the a20..............:)
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...found another reference to the 50 cal in the rear ventral position (that pig-ugly gunnery blindspot that gets me killed A LOT) It was definately a feature in the A-20G.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Players would be far better off to split-s or make a diving reverse to take advantage of the A-20s slow roll rate and relatively low VnE (never exceed speed). You can use the A-20's remarkable dive acceleration against it. Once it zips up to 400 mph, any load over 4 G will break it.
I break just about as many A-20s as I lose to enemy gunfire. I haven't learned to control stick loading. That's why I've switched over to the B-26. Its slower than the A-20 and I'm less likely to overtax the airframe. And, if I get tired of flying, I can jump into the tailgun and use the plane as an airborne M-16.
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I read a unit history of an A-20 group that had been flying in the Pacific for two years. The A-26 Invader was given to them to test in combat and the C.O. of the group came up with 30+ things that needed to be changed before the A-26 was ready for combat. They still wanted to fly their A-20s instead of the A-26s. Havocs drove the Japanese crazy with their low level raids and quick escapes. Most A-20s were long gone by the time the Japanese got their fighters in the air.
:cool: