Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 68DevilM on April 14, 2004, 04:42:12 PM
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heres something thats been disputed in here, flight sim or combat sim, i have one thought! squadren of gv's takeing your bases before you even no it, i think that makes gv's a important part of this game and with out them i wouldnt be as interested in the game as i am, i like the options.....:p
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1081978222_gv4.jpg)
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Since the recent change(was it last year? can't remeber..) that toughened up the Panzer's armour, GVs have become significantly important part of the game.
Before the armour toughening, Panzers were so damn weak that a strafing Zero could disable it on its first pass.. not to mention the Osty 37mms can easily kill it.
On the other hand, the Osties are pretty much weak against field guns be it automated or manned..
So in the past days, GVs were usually passive defense rides. Only the Ostie was really used, and all the role they had in offense was driving to a town or a field where the acks were all down and shooting at the buildings.
After the tanks were significantly toughened GVs have become interesting assault force to reckon with. A tank with its long range bombardment can knock out field acks pretty safely. Once the manned acks are down it can easily withstand batteries of auto ack and charge the field.
Fighter planes still can disable tanks by strafing, but it takes considerable more amount of concentrated shooting than before.. not to mention tanks also withstand Ostie fire for a long time.
This has made the GV warfare very interesting - mixing the right amount of AAs and tanks became an issue, and the primary assault vehicle has shifted to the Panzer instead of the overused Ostie.
All in all, GV warfare is a must now.
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noticed my relitively small number in my fighter, bomber and attack but my gv's this month are up in the 1300 the scale slides up too the right if you know what i mean but other players scores that slide to the bottom left meaning lower gv then attack then bomber and fighter being the highest 13, 1400's that players overall score is lower than mine.......
so im the better fighter, ie flight sim game right? but the guy with lower gv scores than me comes out with a lower overall score
so why is this?
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Actually, GV's are still really easy to kill (disregarding tigers).
All it takes is a single bomb to the roof to kill one. Even 100 lb'ers.
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Man, that is an awesome shot. I think it shows .... a spitfire knocking out a tank from 600 yards at about a 45 degree angle.
But.... but... that isn't possible...
Well, it shouldn't be, but I'm sick of going round and round about it for 3 years now. I'll just post the data, you all be the judge. GVs have been a side-show joke for as long as I've been playing this game.
Gun data
(Per Tony Williams unless otherwise noted)
First, the weapons and their ammunition. The standard British Hispano loadout from around 1942 onwards was an equal mix of SAP/I and HE/I. The SAP/I could penetrate no more than about 20mm armour, at short range given a favourable (ie head-on) hit. There was AP ammo (the USA made some) which pushed the performance up to over 30mm, and the British also developed a tungsten-cored shot capable of 45-65mm penetration, but this was never used.
Given proper AP rounds, the Hispano would be significantly better, but AFAIK the US M75 AP shot wasn't used in Europe. The RAF loaded only HEI and SAPI according to my info, and the SAPI was about the same as the .50 M8 in AP performance.
The .50 M2 AP or M8 API were also capable of penetrating around 20mm maximum, in the most favourable conditions at up to 200m.
""A .50 caliber API round is easily capable of penetrating armor up to at least 19mm of face hardened plate ... at 100 meters." (Per http://www.rovingguns.com/lunatic/wwII_gun_analysis/ )
Panzer IV Armor
Front Turret: 50/11
Front Upper Hull: 50 or 50+30/10
Front Lower Hull: 50 or 50+30/12
Side Turret: 30/26
Side Upper Hull: 30/0
Side Lower Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/10
Rear Upper Hull: 20/12
Rear Lower Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 10/83
Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 12/85
Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 10/90
Gun Mantlet: 50/0
Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II lists the H turret top armor as being 15mm at 84 - 90 degrees. Superstructure is 12mm at 85 - 90 degrees and the hull is 10mm at 90 degrees.
"The USAAF/RAF gun armour penetration figures I quoted before were generally measured at about 200m, and involved striking at 90 degrees (or 0 degrees, depending on which convention you favour). Penetration fell off increasingly rapidly as the striking angle became less direct, although the rate of fall-off depended on the design of the projectile; there is no formula which will give you this. Yaw was also a factor (ie the degree to which the bullet wasn't travelling point-first - particularly a problem at short range before the bullet stabilises in flight, and can also be caused by hitting anything en route to the target). The following extract about the .50" from my next book illustrates this:
"The official requirement for the M2 AP was to penetrate 22 mm steel at 183 m (the M8 API was expected to match this figure at 92 m). The striking angle is not specified but is assumed to be 90º. Official US tables for the M2 show penetration at 300 m as follows: 21 mm / 90º, 13 mm / 60º and 5 mm / 30º. These measurements were to the USN criterion which called for 50% of shots to penetrate. British tests at 183 m determined that the M2 would penetrate 21 mm at 0º angle of yaw (i.e. the bullet was flying perfectly straight) but this dropped to 15 mm with only 10º of yaw (such as might be caused by passing through an aircraft’s skin before hitting the armour). Taking the effects of striking angle and fuselage structures into account, it seems likely that the practical penetration of either the M2 or M8 was in the region of 10-15 mm in normal circumstances."
The important part here is
Taking the effects of striking angle and fuselage structures into account, it seems likely that the practical penetration of either the M2 or M8 was in the region of 10-15 mm in normal circumstances."
Another post
"Realistically, an attack on the roof or decking of a tank is not going to be made at better than 60 degrees, with 30 degrees being more likely. Furthermore, it's not going to be at very short range. So let's take 300m range and strikes at 60-30 degrees as typical.
As I posted before, the .50" M2 AP could penetrate between 13mm and 5mm in these circumstances (with the smaller figure being more likely). < My NOTE: Hispano has similar results>
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urchin that penetration data is how deep 1 bullet will penetrate right? full penetration is easy if you get a lot of bullets into a reasonably small area
the GV's will experience a slight power loss when ah2 comes out...the hurri2d fires its 40mm simultaniously (as it should...)
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"full penetration is easy if you get a lot of bullets into a reasonably small area"
Which is extremely hard and unlikely coming from a flying and shaking gun platform.
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Keep on Preach'n Father Urchin.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"full penetration is easy if you get a lot of bullets into a reasonably small area"
Which is extremely hard and unlikely coming from a flying and shaking gun platform.
in the game (wich is honestly where it matters) ive not had to much problem smaking 20 or so 20mm hispano or anything else for that matter onto another plane...med - low angle shooting at a tanks is even easier to get onto a fairly compact area...
and (actually on topic) of course tanks are important to the game...if we didnt have them our attack role aircraft would be stuck shooting toolsheds...and of course big tanks battles are a hoot...
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Urchin,
How does that shot show a Spit knocking out a PnZ? All I see is a Spit straffing a PnZ that has been bombed to heck and is damaged. Nothing in that shot indicates that the Spit has had any effect whatsoever on the PnZ.
I know from straffing PnZs using the much better armed Mossie (4 Hispanos, no convergence issue) that they can be killed in AH by 20mm Hispanos, usually taking all 700 rounds on a Mossie to do so. It can be done is AH, but it isn't nearly as easy as you guys make it out to be.
Personally I think that 20mm Hispanos could, with enough hits, disable a PnZ, but killing the crew or disabling the turret would be nigh impossible I'd think.
Now, an Il-2's 23mm make it easy.
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Karnak there is at least one way, want to know?
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Originally posted by moot
Karnak there is at least one way, want to know?
You were the tank?
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the mossie.
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Originally posted by moot
the mossie.
I'm afraid I don't follow you here.
What are you saying?
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check your email.
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Originally posted by vorticon
in the game (wich is honestly where it matters) ive not had to much problem smaking 20 or so 20mm hispano or anything else for that matter onto another plane...med - low angle shooting at a tanks is even easier to get onto a fairly compact area...
and (actually on topic) of course tanks are important to the game...if we didnt have them our attack role aircraft would be stuck shooting toolsheds...and of course big tanks battles are a hoot...
The topic is GVs ... planes are not covered in armor ... ergo your 20 or so 20mm hispanos on a Panzer or Tiger mean squat and I seriously doubt that you can put 20 or so in a tight enough pattern to pierce the armor on either of those GVs.
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and of course only disabling turrets or engines is cake with 20mm, especially hispanos, nevermind 4, nevermind nose mounted.
Tracks might be harder, but I don't know as I've never found or looked for the guaranteed weak spots.
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Were gonna shoot ya down anyways :D
Have a Great Day!
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GV's :aok
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Honestly (IMHO) I think the GVs are a necessary evil in this game. They help take bases. Period. Without bombs or rockets though, they are nearly impossible to destroy. I've made literally 8-10 passes with .50 cal or 20mm, getting hits each time, and am never able to knock out an Ostie or M16. If I'm lucky, I get it smoking. I don't even bother attacking Panzers with guns only and rightfully so given their armor protection so I have no gripe about that (however, I saw a D-Day show just yesterday (June 6th) where some Vet was saying he would ricochet his .50 cal from his P-47 off the hard pavement into the underbelly of tanks for kills. Horse Pucky I say!) Even with the inability of the .50cal or 20mm to penetrate the Ostie or M16 armor THEY ARE OPEN TURRETS for crying out loud. If there's a guy shooting at me in an open turret and I'm getting pings he should be dead. End of story. But, 9 times out of 10 if you do a diving pass on a Ostie or M16 you're dead if he has a bead on you. It's because of this I don't even bother attacking them half the time and I consider them a nusance. My other experience was in a Panzer. I hit this Ostie point blank 2-3 times (saw the hit sprites) with my gun and he kept coming. Finally we were in close quarters and he was running circles around me pinging me dozens of times. Finally took my gun out - then killed me. That too is a bunch of horse crap. Hearing Sherman tank commanders from WWII tell of a single shot knocking them out from a Panzer and I can't take out an Ostie from close range with 2-3 shots!!! And, I've heard of Panzer commanders say they were hit 50-100 times with Sherman tank 75mm shells that did not pentrate how the hell can an Ostie with only 37mm kill a Panzer. That's when I threw in the towel and figured these things were not even close to being modeled correctly. But again, they are necessary evil of the game.
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I'm sure that any bugs that the GV's have in AH 1 will be fixed in AH 2 (one can only hope).
There real question is are we going to get any New GV's (worbblewind, M19, T-34 & so on)?