Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: technic on April 15, 2004, 12:45:24 AM
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/329_1082007278_p-38dive.jpg)
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/329_1082007417_p-38turn.jpg)
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unfortunately I am unable to play AH2 beta's at the moment... hows the p38 handle compared to AH1:D
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At high speed it rolls alot better otherwise its unchanged.
At cruising speed its unchanged.
At low speed it flops around like a fish, as if you were increasing throttle to each engine and the torque was affecting you.
I'm hoping it changes a little before then.
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Actually, I've found that low speed handling with flaps, and vertical stall handling, is quite improved over AH1 and will make the 38 even more dangerous.
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Really? Unless something has changed in the last 2 patches I HAVE to disagree.
Besides, how much better can its 'vertical stall handling' be when its one of the few aircraft that can do a hammerhead? Again, I disagree.
Try this... bank on the deck with flaps, you'll swear it has engine torque of a single engine plane but instead pulls to BOTH sides as if you are applying uneven throttle control.
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I completely agree. Further in the two sources I have on the 38 (Dean, "America's 100,000" and Caiden "Fork Tailed Devil") pilots who flew this plane state quite frankly that it simply did not behave this way. They state repeatedly that the P-38, because of the net postive effect on stablity caused by the counter rotating propellers / (read gyroscopes) caused the P-38 to simply mush directly outward in high speed high angle of attack stalls in tight turns at any attitude. The instability of the P-38 oin Aces High is so ahistorical that you wind up with an airplane that has most of it's vices modeled in and only half it's virtues. If the 38 had all of its virtues people would demand that it be perked. I have been griping about this issue since AcesHigh was in it's first beta series, and it is still a major problem in the beta as of beta 18.
I am downloading beta 25 today, but the programmers notes I have read since beta 11 mention this aspect of p-38 flight modeling (vortext effect on the p-38) just once. If they are really only working on the vortes issue then they have only solved half the problem. The stability of the 38 in high angle of attack scenarios is more a function of gyroscopic forces than of vortex. Vortex effects give you a net zero effect since the vortexes counter rotate. Add the gyroscopic forces of those big props and you add stability to the airplanes the faster they spin. This does not happen in Aces High as of beta 18.
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The P-38 can still stall, and in a turn the wings will not stall at the same time. Left unchecked this will induce a spin. The P-38 is not the UFO you want it to be.
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All I can tell you about the stall characteristics of the P-38 is this. The following P-38 pilots (real pilots who flew it between 1942 and 1945) Stan Richardson Jr., Art Heiden, Ken Lloyd, Bill Capron,and several others, stated this for the record. The P-38 did not snap roll inverted nor enter a death spin unless missing parts of the flight surfaces including control surfaces, or assymetrical power was applied. Period. It may eventually spin out of a tight turn if speed drops too low (it will maintian level straight ahead flight at 75MPH), but even then, it will not exhibit the bizarre characteristics it does here in AH. All that is necessary is to get nose down for a LITTLE speed. It will recover at 10 degrees nose down and just over 100 MPH. It will NOT lock into an unrecoverable spin. It was neither necessary nor desirable to pull the throttles back or shut down the engines. You should only close the throttles or shut down the engines if one is already out.
Stan Richardson Jr. was an advanced P-38 instructor AND a combat pilot. He had as many hours in the P-38 on one engine as most pilots had in it period. He can tell you more about the flight characteristics of the P-38 than just about anyone alive today. Not only have I asked Stan any number of questions, but other pilots who flew the P-38 have told me that if Stan says it is so, you can take it as the gospel regarding the P-38. When guys like Art Heiden say that, it is fact. Don Rheimer said the same thing. Few pilots had more hours in the P-38 than Stan did. Although I do not know him, I hear the same is true of Erv Ethell, father of the late Jeff Ethell. I do know that Erv Ethell had well in excess of 3000 hours in the P-38, and was himself a combat pilot with several victories and an advanced P-38 instructor.
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Still ... The P-38 can still stall, and in a turn the wings will not stall at the same time. Left unchecked this will induce a spin. The P-38 is not the UFO you want it to be.
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No one said that the P-38 would not spin, they said it was difficult to spin, and that the spin model here was WRONG for the P-38. For the famous FINAL time, and I'll not waste further time arguing it, the P-38 WILL NOT ENTER A LOCKED DEATH SPIN LIKE IT DOES IN AH WITHOUT ASSYMETRICAL POWER OR DAMAGE, PERIOD. The spin model is WRONG. Believe what you will.
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How do you get a p38 into an unrecoverable spin?
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I was wondering that myself. Please post a film...
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The P38 in Aces High II is very strange. You can stall the plane so that it flies with a 30 to 45 degree nose high attitude. The plane will fly at about 100mph with its nose high in the air, barely maintaining (or slightly climbing) altitude.
Try it yourself- Take off in a P38, full flaps, pull the nose back after rotation until it stalls. Pushing forward on the stick wont get the plane out of this very high AoA attitude. Rolling the plane to the left or right usually works though.
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The engines are holding up the wings. Throttle back to make the nose drop (in the Ta152 you would need to shut the engine off completely in AH1). I have yet to get into an unrecoverable spin in any plane in AH1 or AH2. Seems like our "Captain" here needs to learn some spin recovery techniques.
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Just installed Beta 25 and tested the P-38. It behaves beautifully. I did tail slides and hammerheads with little difficulty. I put her in a spin and recovered easily several times, and with only the loss of about 2000 feet each time. I don't understand why people don't like how she handles?
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I just spent 30 in AH2 offline in the 38 and it as exactly like GS said, I spent another 15 min in AH1. I never spun at all nor did I find the stall in AH2 hard to recover from.
As I said I would like to see a film of what it is the Cap'n is talking about.
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I think I know what the problem is: Combat Trim.
At low speed the combat trim will trim the elevators up. Unless you are aware of this and push negative on the stick immediately after stalling, it is very easy to enter a spin (in any plane). One of the many reasons why I trim manually. With the elevators trimmed to neutral the P-38 will snap out of a stall by simply centring the stick, unless I hold the stall for a couple of seconds and let it develop into a spin.
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I have Combat Trim off by default, I will retry as you describe...
Flying certain LW planes at low speed with combat trim on causes similiar difficulties, thats why I have it off.
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I love how you can use analogue devices for trim in AH2 ... especially since I have a throttle with two rotary wheels on. :)
And I love the new 109F4, it's like a Ferrari! :D
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Again I agree with GScholz on the 38 handling in AHII. And yes, combat trim must always be off with the P38 in either AHI or II. Flying with it on can hamper you badly, and since no rudder or aileron trim is ever needed unless you've taken damage, manual trimming is not hard. I find the AHII 38 seems slightly smoother and more stable at low speed than in AHI, and the behaviour of the plane during hammerhead manouevers seems even nicer than in AHI (little more stable, a little more predictable during the noseover at near-zero speeds).
As for unrecoverable spins, I've managed to put the P38 in both AHI and AHII into unrecoverable flat spins ("Goose, I can't control it!"). Don't ask me exactly how, because I haven't put effort into consistently reproducing it, and it doesn't happen often. I think it happened more often when I was experimenting with applying uneven power to the engines to accelerate hammerhead reversals, but I've managed it a couple of times with full power to both engines. The flight model isn't perfect, it's a rough approximation, so things won't always behave as expected.
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If you get in flat spins (especially nose-high flat spins) it is VERY important to cut throttle to get the nose down. In some aircraft in AH1 (like the 110 and Ta152) you need to shut the engine off completely. Basically what’s happening is that your prop wash is giving the wing enough lift to prevent you from getting the nose down, coupled with the fact that your elevators are almost useless. If you don’t empty the aft fuselage tank first in the 190’s you can also get in to trouble like this.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The engines are holding up the wings. Throttle back to make the nose drop (in the Ta152 you would need to shut the engine off completely in AH1). I have yet to get into an unrecoverable spin in any plane in AH1 or AH2. Seems like our "Captain" here needs to learn some spin recovery techniques.
Wrong. I'm saying that once you are nose down, the P-38 should recover quickly with no input, and it doesn't. Under certain conditions, it will enter a spin and react as if engine torque was
making the spin worse. Provided both engines are at equal power settings, and both engines and both props are undamaged, throttle should not be an issue. I agree it is possible that prop wash COULD provide enough lift to keep the nose up
at WOT, but it is hardly likely, especially if the plane has already departed. In AH I, you'll find that the P-38 at times acts as though it does not have zero net torque, and it does, or at least it should.
I have occaisionally gotten into a flat spin that took a long time to go nose down, that is not necessarily wrong. However, I have also occaisionally gotten into a death spiral after a stall, where the plane is nose down and spins rapidly around the nacelle and will not stop. It MAY stop IF you are high enough to shut the engines off and they stop completely. See, the engines should not cause that as they would in a single engine plane at WOT. But they do. The P-38 SHOULD regain controlled flight nose down about 100 MPH regardless of throttle settings (again, so long as thay are equal and the powertrain is undamaged).
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At least you are persistent. Can you provide a film of such a "death spiral"? I think not.
I think this is definitively a case of an "it's the man not the machine" problem.
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I'll do that the next time I have the misfortune of entering one. As of late, my film recorder has not been working, I fized it Sunday. If I have such a misfortune again, I'll post a link to the film. Personally, your opinion of my ability is quite irrelevant to me, but you are welcome to it.:rolleyes:
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Just installed Beta 26. Took a 38 up, looped on take-off with flaps, flew level at 50 mph with full flaps and full elevator deflection, gained some speed and pulled up and did a tail slide (quite a good one this time), did a right hand hammerhead stall (also nice for once), induced a violent spin by using full left rudder while yanking the stick back (at 3000 feet), recovered easily (at 400 feet), climbed to 5000 feet and induced another spin, this time by stalling in a nose-high attitude and applying left rudder (this one was a very fast spin), recovered easily at 2500 feet.
The P-38 behaves beautifully in AH2, you're not flying her right.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Just installed Beta 26. Took a 38 up, looped on take-off with flaps, flew level at 50 mph with full flaps and full elevator deflection, gained some speed and pulled up and did a tail slide (quite a good one this time), did a right hand hammerhead stall (also nice for once), induced a violent spin by using full left rudder while yanking the stick back (at 3000 feet), recovered easily (at 400 feet), climbed to 5000 feet and induced another spin, this time by stalling in a nose-high attitude and applying left rudder (this one was a very fast spin), recovered easily at 2500 feet.
The P-38 behaves beautifully in AH2, you're not flying her right.
I was not talking about AH II, perhaps that is where the misunderstanding lies. Or perhaps not.
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The P-38 is even more docile in AH1. The AH 38 aces like Ack-Ack and Hogan can do some amazing things with that bird.
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Not really but hear me out this will help.
The P-38 as two ammunition loadouts for the MGs. One loadout has 500 rounds per gun, the other 200. That would give you one plane with 2000 rounds of .50 cal and another with only 800. That is a difference of 1200 rounds of .50 call ammo. Do you folks know how much that weighs? .50 cal ammunition weighs .3 pounds per round linked. That comes to almost 450 POUNDS of weight. And ALL of it is well forward of the CG! I have fought this mess for YEARS. Always got the same nasty result. One guy says 38 is GREAT the other guy says it's a dog. Like they were talking about two different planes. Well folks they may very well be.
When I fly a P-38 with the 2000 rnd MG option and try to turn it. It flops around like a fish. When I fly it with the 800 round option I can embarras NIKIs from time to time, and low and slow a spitV will get hurt if Iam low enough on fuel.
It's the ammo guys. Im serious it's the ammo. Also not all computers and controllers are the same. I find I MUST use the stall limiter. Other people do not have to and are actually hurt in turn fights using it. That's another matter. Check your ammo loadouts folks. It makes a difference.
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I'm no 38 plie it extraordinarie but I never use stall-limiter nor do I use anything other than the maximum ammo load out(nice to have weight to pull nose down when going over the top :-) ), I do how ever fly in a so called "nuetral trim" I trim the 38 to fly level around 300 to 325 IAS ( indicated airspeed) then I leave it set at or around that speed, and feel I can squeeze more performance out of it regardless if I am slow under 90 IAS or fast over 350 IAS, oh and I use the vertical fight up with it
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You actually use the stall limiter and try to fight?
I've done that once, by accident. My 109 felt like a dump truck.
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I considered your comments, OLTos, but I'm afraid I disagree.
The ammo load out is ahead of the center of gravity, not behind it. It does (or should) make a difference.
Second, flying with the stall limiter ruins your credability, sorry bud, but it does.
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Originally posted by Innominate
How do you get a p38 into an unrecoverable spin?
Have me fly it. I'll have that bird in a death spin sitting on the runway.
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troll thread alert!
(I thought new P-38 screen shots were available...grrrr.)
:D
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OLtos, you post troll... this one is over 6 months old... :rolleyes:
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This isn't trolling my friends...this is grave digging!
Arise my creation, ARISE! IT'S ALIVE! ALIIIIVE!!